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samIsaack
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« Reply #450 on: April 23, 2013, 12:34:33 AM »

I agree with you, Arch. I think SRY2627 made its way to Britain via trade exchanges with Brittany and Iberia, probably in the form of Maritime beakers. Though I'd have to say a good portion of it was probably introduced via Brittany more so than Iberia. Mostly due to the relatively short distance between England and Brittany. I may be slightly biased though, as I do believe that is how my SRY2627 ended up there :)

I looked through some of the projects on ftdna as well as browsing ysearch entries looking for SRY2627 in England. As you mentioned earlier there does seem to be a slight pooling point in Devon, really the southwest in general as there are examples in Cornwall, Somerset and Dorset too. These tin-rich areas and the fact that SRY2627 is more frequent in them, make it all too apparent that SRY2627 arrived to Britain because of tin.

Most likely these SRY2627, L165, Z220 beaker people made their way further north from France and Iberia because of the tin rich enviroment of Southwest England. Since tin wasn't really traded from Brittany and Iberia until after the time period we are discussing. I guess they liked what they seen when they arrived! This further solidifies France and Iberia's role as being the ancient homeland of our family of DF27 clades.

I still see Switzerland as the location of the original SRY2627 man.. Don't ask me why. Its just a gut feeling.
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Arch Y.
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« Reply #451 on: April 23, 2013, 12:51:11 AM »

I agree with you, Arch. I think SRY2627 made its way to Britain via trade exchanges with Brittany and Iberia, probably in the form of Maritime beakers. Though I'd have to say a good portion of it was probably introduced via Brittany more so than Iberia. Mostly due to the relatively short distance between England and Brittany. I may be slightly biased though, as I do believe that is how my SRY2627 ended up there :)

I looked through some of the projects on ftdna as well as browsing ysearch entries looking for SRY2627 in England. As you mentioned earlier there does seem to be a slight pooling point in Devon, really the southwest in general as there are examples in Cornwall, Somerset and Dorset too. These tin-rich areas and the fact that SRY2627 is more frequent in them, make it all too apparent that SRY2627 arrived to Britain because of tin.

Most likely these SRY2627, L165, Z220 beaker people made their way further north from France and Iberia because of the tin rich enviroment of Southwest England. Since tin wasn't really traded from Brittany and Iberia until after the time period we are discussing. I guess they liked what they seen when they arrived! This further solidifies France and Iberia's role as being the ancient homeland of our family of DF27 clades.

I still see Switzerland as the location of the original SRY2627 man.. Don't ask me why. Its just a gut feeling.

I would not be surprised if Switzerland is the location of the first SRY2627+ person. We also have to consider whether or not his family remained there in situ or migrated just after his was born. All kinds of crap could have happened since the birth of SRY2627+ man. LOL. What I do recall is how easy it was for the Amesbury Archer to make it to Stonehenge and his origins are speculated to be in the western Alps in Switzerland. I agree that SRY2627 is a part of the later Bell Beaker Maritime package. I'm also a bit mystified with the late bronze age megaliths in the Central Pyrenees, specifically in Val d'Aran that are identified with Maritime Bell Beakers. The spread of SRY2627 is on both sides of the Pyrenees, so it makes sense that Val d'Aran and nearby valleys are the big crossroads between Iberia and eventually Britanny via the Garonne and coastal sailing.

The Loire R. also intrigues me as a possibility. The tin trade initially used the Loire-Cher route from Belerion and Ictis towards Marseilles off the Mediterranean Coast. The other route used was the Garonne-Aude between Bordigula and Narbonne.

Arch
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samIsaack
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« Reply #452 on: April 23, 2013, 03:56:09 PM »

I agree with you, Arch. I think SRY2627 made its way to Britain via trade exchanges with Brittany and Iberia, probably in the form of Maritime beakers. Though I'd have to say a good portion of it was probably introduced via Brittany more so than Iberia. Mostly due to the relatively short distance between England and Brittany. I may be slightly biased though, as I do believe that is how my SRY2627 ended up there :)

I looked through some of the projects on ftdna as well as browsing ysearch entries looking for SRY2627 in England. As you mentioned earlier there does seem to be a slight pooling point in Devon, really the southwest in general as there are examples in Cornwall, Somerset and Dorset too. These tin-rich areas and the fact that SRY2627 is more frequent in them, make it all too apparent that SRY2627 arrived to Britain because of tin.

Most likely these SRY2627, L165, Z220 beaker people made their way further north from France and Iberia because of the tin rich enviroment of Southwest England. Since tin wasn't really traded from Brittany and Iberia until after the time period we are discussing. I guess they liked what they seen when they arrived! This further solidifies France and Iberia's role as being the ancient homeland of our family of DF27 clades.

I still see Switzerland as the location of the original SRY2627 man.. Don't ask me why. Its just a gut feeling.

I would not be surprised if Switzerland is the location of the first SRY2627+ person. We also have to consider whether or not his family remained there in situ or migrated just after his was born. All kinds of crap could have happened since the birth of SRY2627+ man. LOL. What I do recall is how easy it was for the Amesbury Archer to make it to Stonehenge and his origins are speculated to be in the western Alps in Switzerland. I agree that SRY2627 is a part of the later Bell Beaker Maritime package. I'm also a bit mystified with the late bronze age megaliths in the Central Pyrenees, specifically in Val d'Aran that are identified with Maritime Bell Beakers. The spread of SRY2627 is on both sides of the Pyrenees, so it makes sense that Val d'Aran and nearby valleys are the big crossroads between Iberia and eventually Britanny via the Garonne and coastal sailing.

The Loire R. also intrigues me as a possibility. The tin trade initially used the Loire-Cher route from Belerion and Ictis towards Marseilles off the Mediterranean Coast. The other route used was the Garonne-Aude between Bordigula and Narbonne.

Arch

I think the second map that Rich Rocca posted on eng.molgen.org is pretty representative of what we are currently discussing.

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?t=746&p=14185

I find the correlation between this map and SRY2627 to be strikingly similar. The main flow from the Atlantic pooled where we see it today, Southwest England. Then the same flow from Brittany kept moving further east. Some scattered SRY2627 along the Eastern part of Anglia and these guys probably kept moving further north into Scotland leaving a trail. I'm guessing this is how L165 got so far up, or it could be a later migration from the group of Iberian beakers that kept going east upwards through Switzerland and Germany on up into Scandanavia. I guess L165 could have been brought there by Vikings, but it most likely didn't originate with them. Of course I'm sure there were outliers on either side of the SRY2627/L165 brother combo, with some SRY2627 going to Scandanavia and becoming "Nordic" and some L165 travelling to Britain becoming "Celtic". Either way, I believe they did travel together. SRY2627 more so with L165 than L165 with SRY2627 on its usual path.

I guess this also re-asserts that Beakers were more of a cultural package to Britain than a whole wide-scale population movement. DF27 seems to have introduced this culture there more so than other P312 clades. So in a way it is both, but it wasn't a large, massive migration. If it was we would be rivalling L21 in the Isles. Though I do believe it was much more significant on the Continent.

I'd say the Amesbury Archer is DF27 of some sort. I keep seeing what you said, that he was likely from Alpine Europe. Really, I would include Northern Spain in that description. It isn't unlike Switzerland with all of its mountains and forests. I'd like to say he was SRY2627 but that wouldn't be fair to our DF27 cousins :) .. I also remembering reading that tooth enamel found in those skeletons from Iberia and I believe the Czech republic were similar to each other. I'm assuming the archer would be a match for this type as well.

On a slightly unrelated side-note, I found out that Devon has a national tartan. Didn't think they had one, but it was apparently introduced following the success of the Cornish, St. Piran tartan. Of course that was just Devons attempt at stealing Cornwalls "unique" Celtic identity. Its a shame that Devon doesn't celebrate its rich Celtic heritage. I guess in a way they are slowly starting to re-embrace it.  
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 03:57:21 PM by samIsaack » Logged

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« Reply #453 on: April 23, 2013, 05:04:35 PM »

 
SRY2627 the tofu of DNA tasteless but absorbs other flavor well as to hide what your eating
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 07:29:01 PM by Brousse » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
Arch Y.
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« Reply #454 on: April 24, 2013, 02:34:05 AM »

I agree with you, Arch. I think SRY2627 made its way to Britain via trade exchanges with Brittany and Iberia, probably in the form of Maritime beakers. Though I'd have to say a good portion of it was probably introduced via Brittany more so than Iberia. Mostly due to the relatively short distance between England and Brittany. I may be slightly biased though, as I do believe that is how my SRY2627 ended up there :)

I looked through some of the projects on ftdna as well as browsing ysearch entries looking for SRY2627 in England. As you mentioned earlier there does seem to be a slight pooling point in Devon, really the southwest in general as there are examples in Cornwall, Somerset and Dorset too. These tin-rich areas and the fact that SRY2627 is more frequent in them, make it all too apparent that SRY2627 arrived to Britain because of tin.

Most likely these SRY2627, L165, Z220 beaker people made their way further north from France and Iberia because of the tin rich enviroment of Southwest England. Since tin wasn't really traded from Brittany and Iberia until after the time period we are discussing. I guess they liked what they seen when they arrived! This further solidifies France and Iberia's role as being the ancient homeland of our family of DF27 clades.

I still see Switzerland as the location of the original SRY2627 man.. Don't ask me why. Its just a gut feeling.

I would not be surprised if Switzerland is the location of the first SRY2627+ person. We also have to consider whether or not his family remained there in situ or migrated just after his was born. All kinds of crap could have happened since the birth of SRY2627+ man. LOL. What I do recall is how easy it was for the Amesbury Archer to make it to Stonehenge and his origins are speculated to be in the western Alps in Switzerland. I agree that SRY2627 is a part of the later Bell Beaker Maritime package. I'm also a bit mystified with the late bronze age megaliths in the Central Pyrenees, specifically in Val d'Aran that are identified with Maritime Bell Beakers. The spread of SRY2627 is on both sides of the Pyrenees, so it makes sense that Val d'Aran and nearby valleys are the big crossroads between Iberia and eventually Britanny via the Garonne and coastal sailing.

The Loire R. also intrigues me as a possibility. The tin trade initially used the Loire-Cher route from Belerion and Ictis towards Marseilles off the Mediterranean Coast. The other route used was the Garonne-Aude between Bordigula and Narbonne.

Arch

I think the second map that Rich Rocca posted on eng.molgen.org is pretty representative of what we are currently discussing.

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?t=746&p=14185

I find the correlation between this map and SRY2627 to be strikingly similar. The main flow from the Atlantic pooled where we see it today, Southwest England. Then the same flow from Brittany kept moving further east. Some scattered SRY2627 along the Eastern part of Anglia and these guys probably kept moving further north into Scotland leaving a trail. I'm guessing this is how L165 got so far up, or it could be a later migration from the group of Iberian beakers that kept going east upwards through Switzerland and Germany on up into Scandanavia. I guess L165 could have been brought there by Vikings, but it most likely didn't originate with them. Of course I'm sure there were outliers on either side of the SRY2627/L165 brother combo, with some SRY2627 going to Scandanavia and becoming "Nordic" and some L165 travelling to Britain becoming "Celtic". Either way, I believe they did travel together. SRY2627 more so with L165 than L165 with SRY2627 on its usual path.

I guess this also re-asserts that Beakers were more of a cultural package to Britain than a whole wide-scale population movement. DF27 seems to have introduced this culture there more so than other P312 clades. So in a way it is both, but it wasn't a large, massive migration. If it was we would be rivalling L21 in the Isles. Though I do believe it was much more significant on the Continent.

I'd say the Amesbury Archer is DF27 of some sort. I keep seeing what you said, that he was likely from Alpine Europe. Really, I would include Northern Spain in that description. It isn't unlike Switzerland with all of its mountains and forests. I'd like to say he was SRY2627 but that wouldn't be fair to our DF27 cousins :) .. I also remembering reading that tooth enamel found in those skeletons from Iberia and I believe the Czech republic were similar to each other. I'm assuming the archer would be a match for this type as well.

On a slightly unrelated side-note, I found out that Devon has a national tartan. Didn't think they had one, but it was apparently introduced following the success of the Cornish, St. Piran tartan. Of course that was just Devons attempt at stealing Cornwalls "unique" Celtic identity. Its a shame that Devon doesn't celebrate its rich Celtic heritage. I guess in a way they are slowly starting to re-embrace it.  

The subclade (SRY2627) is hard to figure out when we see its distribution all over the place. Though not exclusively, it seems the bulk of SRY2627 is found within relative proximity to the Atlantic Ocean, Mediterranean Sea, North Sea, Baltic Sea, and the Black Sea. I suspect this is mainly due to the fact that Europe is a big peninsula of peninsulas. The inland SRY2627 distribution seems to cluster near the Swiss and Italian Alps. Granted we do have some in Poland, near Czech Republic, Hungary, Ukraine. Like I stated the SRY2627 in Scandinavia must have been a later arrival perhaps earliest arrival during the Nordic Bronze Age. It's the inland of continental SRY2627 that drives me crazy in trying to figure out. Now what I could surmise is SRY2627's strong presence in southern France and the Pyrenees could have been part of the trade-exchange network that reached Hueneburg (allegedly the city of Pyrene) with its influence reaching the Mediterranean Sea at Massilia. Could this account with the high presence of SRY2627 in Girona near Empuries (Portus Pyrene)? It's a possibility. We see SRY2627 along the Loire River which is also a major factor in the Atlantic Bronze Age Trade-Exchange networks. The Garonne-Aude Axis also was to play a major role in the earlier exchanges before the Loire-Cher route was taken. Toulouse is such a major player in early antiquity. It was the capital of the Volcae Tectosages around 300 BCE, then later Visigoths. It's history must go back further than 300 BCE in terms of its settlement. It's the perfect center between the Atlantic and the Mediterranean.

I know what you mean about continuity of the teeth enamel. Bell Beakers found in the Czech Republic have continuity with those in the Pyrenees or Iberia. Everywhere else there is discontinuity. That is pretty interesting.

Arch
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« Reply #455 on: April 24, 2013, 09:21:15 AM »

I agree with you, Arch. I think SRY2627 made its way to Britain via trade exchanges with Brittany and Iberia, probably in the form of Maritime beakers. Though I'd have to say a good portion of it was probably introduced via Brittany more so than Iberia. Mostly due to the relatively short distance between England and Brittany. I may be slightly biased though, as I do believe that is how my SRY2627 ended up there :)

I looked through some of the projects on ftdna as well as browsing ysearch entries looking for SRY2627 in England. As you mentioned earlier there does seem to be a slight pooling point in Devon, really the southwest in general as there are examples in Cornwall, Somerset and Dorset too. These tin-rich areas and the fact that SRY2627 is more frequent in them, make it all too apparent that SRY2627 arrived to Britain because of tin.

Most likely these SRY2627, L165, Z220 beaker people made their way further north from France and Iberia because of the tin rich enviroment of Southwest England. Since tin wasn't really traded from Brittany and Iberia until after the time period we are discussing. I guess they liked what they seen when they arrived! This further solidifies France and Iberia's role as being the ancient homeland of our family of DF27 clades.

I still see Switzerland as the location of the original SRY2627 man.. Don't ask me why. Its just a gut feeling.

I would not be surprised if Switzerland is the location of the first SRY2627+ person. We also have to consider whether or not his family remained there in situ or migrated just after his was born. All kinds of crap could have happened since the birth of SRY2627+ man. LOL. What I do recall is how easy it was for the Amesbury Archer to make it to Stonehenge and his origins are speculated to be in the western Alps in Switzerland. I agree that SRY2627 is a part of the later Bell Beaker Maritime package. I'm also a bit mystified with the late bronze age megaliths in the Central Pyrenees, specifically in Val d'Aran that are identified with Maritime Bell Beakers. The spread of SRY2627 is on both sides of the Pyrenees, so it makes sense that Val d'Aran and nearby valleys are the big crossroads between Iberia and eventually Britanny via the Garonne and coastal sailing.

The Loire R. also intrigues me as a possibility. The tin trade initially used the Loire-Cher route from Belerion and Ictis towards Marseilles off the Mediterranean Coast. The other route used was the Garonne-Aude between Bordigula and Narbonne.

Arch

I think the second map that Rich Rocca posted on eng.molgen.org is pretty representative of what we are currently discussing.

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?t=746&p=14185

I find the correlation between this map and SRY2627 to be strikingly similar. The main flow from the Atlantic pooled where we see it today, Southwest England. Then the same flow from Brittany kept moving further east. Some scattered SRY2627 along the Eastern part of Anglia and these guys probably kept moving further north into Scotland leaving a trail. I'm guessing this is how L165 got so far up, or it could be a later migration from the group of Iberian beakers that kept going east upwards through Switzerland and Germany on up into Scandanavia. I guess L165 could have been brought there by Vikings, but it most likely didn't originate with them. Of course I'm sure there were outliers on either side of the SRY2627/L165 brother combo, with some SRY2627 going to Scandanavia and becoming "Nordic" and some L165 travelling to Britain becoming "Celtic". Either way, I believe they did travel together. SRY2627 more so with L165 than L165 with SRY2627 on its usual path.

I guess this also re-asserts that Beakers were more of a cultural package to Britain than a whole wide-scale population movement. DF27 seems to have introduced this culture there more so than other P312 clades. So in a way it is both, but it wasn't a large, massive migration. If it was we would be rivalling L21 in the Isles. Though I do believe it was much more significant on the Continent.

I'd say the Amesbury Archer is DF27 of some sort. I keep seeing what you said, that he was likely from Alpine Europe. Really, I would include Northern Spain in that description. It isn't unlike Switzerland with all of its mountains and forests. I'd like to say he was SRY2627 but that wouldn't be fair to our DF27 cousins :) .. I also remembering reading that tooth enamel found in those skeletons from Iberia and I believe the Czech republic were similar to each other. I'm assuming the archer would be a match for this type as well.

On a slightly unrelated side-note, I found out that Devon has a national tartan. Didn't think they had one, but it was apparently introduced following the success of the Cornish, St. Piran tartan. Of course that was just Devons attempt at stealing Cornwalls "unique" Celtic identity. Its a shame that Devon doesn't celebrate its rich Celtic heritage. I guess in a way they are slowly starting to re-embrace it.  

Sam, it is starting to make sense to me now.  If you apply the practices of the Vikings to Maritime Beakers, you start to see a similiar pattern.  The Vikings were not interested in settling, therefore they stayed close to the coasts and established trading posts, which went on to become cities.  Their bases were concetrated in areas that would have given them easy access to the sea, and in the case of Scotland, a good area to make a straight shot back to Scandanavia.  Devon is to France/Spain what the Orkneys are to Scandanavia.  If the Beakers were interested in trade only, then Devon around through to Kent, which is where we see high numbers of P312* in the Busby study would make sense.  Also the Southern portion of Ireland has the highest numbers of P312*, which again is easy access to the sea.
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William B. Webb
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« Reply #456 on: April 24, 2013, 10:02:46 AM »

This is why I believe the maritime peoples of the Pictones and Santones meet the criteria. I'm not even saying they are natives to the area. Both Tribes are skilled ship builders by the time the Romans arrive. It is also written the Picts also had a navy. To me this answers all questions as to the distribution of SRY2627 No doubt these people traded goods. I can't see people in the alps building ships. Plus most even today that live in the mountains have close family ties like many cousin marriages. Today people may leave the mountains for a better life but 3,500 years ago life in the mountains would be as good as it got with safety and our lot would not be so widely distributed . I'm just adding my guess as all of you do . The fact is we may never know so Maritime Bell Beakers  my be who we are
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #457 on: April 24, 2013, 10:23:26 AM »

This is why I believe the maritime peoples of the Pictones and Santones meet the criteria. I'm not even saying they are natives to the area. Both Tribes are skilled ship builders by the time the Romans arrive. It is also written the Picts also had a navy. To me this answers all questions as to the distribution of SRY2627 No doubt these people traded goods. I can't see people in the alps building ships. Plus most even today that live in the mountains have close family ties like many cousin marriages. Today people may leave the mountains for a better life but 3,500 years ago life in the mountains would be as good as it got with safety and our lot would not be so widely distributed . I'm just adding my guess as all of you do . The fact is we may never know so Maritime Bell Beakers  my be who we are

I think Sam's other point that as SRY2627 and various other DF27 subclades spread around, they probably shed off considerable amounts seeds, so to speak.  The Ebro River Valley flows right along side the Pyrenees, so you would have to secure passes through these mountains if what you were trading was being traded to the west of the Pyrenees.  Which could explain the reason for the high numbers in these areas.
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William B. Webb
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« Reply #458 on: April 24, 2013, 03:55:17 PM »

I agree with you, Arch. I think SRY2627 made its way to Britain via trade exchanges with Brittany and Iberia, probably in the form of Maritime beakers. Though I'd have to say a good portion of it was probably introduced via Brittany more so than Iberia. Mostly due to the relatively short distance between England and Brittany. I may be slightly biased though, as I do believe that is how my SRY2627 ended up there :)

I looked through some of the projects on ftdna as well as browsing ysearch entries looking for SRY2627 in England. As you mentioned earlier there does seem to be a slight pooling point in Devon, really the southwest in general as there are examples in Cornwall, Somerset and Dorset too. These tin-rich areas and the fact that SRY2627 is more frequent in them, make it all too apparent that SRY2627 arrived to Britain because of tin.

Most likely these SRY2627, L165, Z220 beaker people made their way further north from France and Iberia because of the tin rich enviroment of Southwest England. Since tin wasn't really traded from Brittany and Iberia until after the time period we are discussing. I guess they liked what they seen when they arrived! This further solidifies France and Iberia's role as being the ancient homeland of our family of DF27 clades.

I still see Switzerland as the location of the original SRY2627 man.. Don't ask me why. Its just a gut feeling.

I would not be surprised if Switzerland is the location of the first SRY2627+ person. We also have to consider whether or not his family remained there in situ or migrated just after his was born. All kinds of crap could have happened since the birth of SRY2627+ man. LOL. What I do recall is how easy it was for the Amesbury Archer to make it to Stonehenge and his origins are speculated to be in the western Alps in Switzerland. I agree that SRY2627 is a part of the later Bell Beaker Maritime package. I'm also a bit mystified with the late bronze age megaliths in the Central Pyrenees, specifically in Val d'Aran that are identified with Maritime Bell Beakers. The spread of SRY2627 is on both sides of the Pyrenees, so it makes sense that Val d'Aran and nearby valleys are the big crossroads between Iberia and eventually Britanny via the Garonne and coastal sailing.

The Loire R. also intrigues me as a possibility. The tin trade initially used the Loire-Cher route from Belerion and Ictis towards Marseilles off the Mediterranean Coast. The other route used was the Garonne-Aude between Bordigula and Narbonne.

Arch

I think the second map that Rich Rocca posted on eng.molgen.org is pretty representative of what we are currently discussing.

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?t=746&p=14185

I find the correlation between this map and SRY2627 to be strikingly similar. The main flow from the Atlantic pooled where we see it today, Southwest England. Then the same flow from Brittany kept moving further east. Some scattered SRY2627 along the Eastern part of Anglia and these guys probably kept moving further north into Scotland leaving a trail. I'm guessing this is how L165 got so far up, or it could be a later migration from the group of Iberian beakers that kept going east upwards through Switzerland and Germany on up into Scandanavia. I guess L165 could have been brought there by Vikings, but it most likely didn't originate with them. Of course I'm sure there were outliers on either side of the SRY2627/L165 brother combo, with some SRY2627 going to Scandanavia and becoming "Nordic" and some L165 travelling to Britain becoming "Celtic". Either way, I believe they did travel together. SRY2627 more so with L165 than L165 with SRY2627 on its usual path.

I guess this also re-asserts that Beakers were more of a cultural package to Britain than a whole wide-scale population movement. DF27 seems to have introduced this culture there more so than other P312 clades. So in a way it is both, but it wasn't a large, massive migration. If it was we would be rivalling L21 in the Isles. Though I do believe it was much more significant on the Continent.

I'd say the Amesbury Archer is DF27 of some sort. I keep seeing what you said, that he was likely from Alpine Europe. Really, I would include Northern Spain in that description. It isn't unlike Switzerland with all of its mountains and forests. I'd like to say he was SRY2627 but that wouldn't be fair to our DF27 cousins :) .. I also remembering reading that tooth enamel found in those skeletons from Iberia and I believe the Czech republic were similar to each other. I'm assuming the archer would be a match for this type as well.

On a slightly unrelated side-note, I found out that Devon has a national tartan. Didn't think they had one, but it was apparently introduced following the success of the Cornish, St. Piran tartan. Of course that was just Devons attempt at stealing Cornwalls "unique" Celtic identity. Its a shame that Devon doesn't celebrate its rich Celtic heritage. I guess in a way they are slowly starting to re-embrace it.  

Sam, it is starting to make sense to me now.  If you apply the practices of the Vikings to Maritime Beakers, you start to see a similiar pattern.  The Vikings were not interested in settling, therefore they stayed close to the coasts and established trading posts, which went on to become cities.  Their bases were concetrated in areas that would have given them easy access to the sea, and in the case of Scotland, a good area to make a straight shot back to Scandanavia.  Devon is to France/Spain what the Orkneys are to Scandanavia.  If the Beakers were interested in trade only, then Devon around through to Kent, which is where we see high numbers of P312* in the Busby study would make sense.  Also the Southern portion of Ireland has the highest numbers of P312*, which again is easy access to the sea.

Agreed. When I said " I'm guessing this is how L165 got so far up, or it could be a later migration from the group of Iberian beakers that kept going east upwards through Switzerland and Germany on up into Scandanavia. I guess L165 could have been brought there by Vikings, but it most likely didn't originate with them." I was referring to the Vikings bringing it to Scotland during their expansions across Europe.

I'd say alot of the untested P312* from the Old Norway study will be L165. With decreasing numbers of SRY2627, Z220 and a few DF27*. I'm still amazed that an M153 was found up in that region.
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« Reply #459 on: April 24, 2013, 04:15:42 PM »

This is why I believe the maritime peoples of the Pictones and Santones meet the criteria. I'm not even saying they are natives to the area. Both Tribes are skilled ship builders by the time the Romans arrive. It is also written the Picts also had a navy. To me this answers all questions as to the distribution of SRY2627 No doubt these people traded goods. I can't see people in the alps building ships. Plus most even today that live in the mountains have close family ties like many cousin marriages. Today people may leave the mountains for a better life but 3,500 years ago life in the mountains would be as good as it got with safety and our lot would not be so widely distributed . I'm just adding my guess as all of you do . The fact is we may never know so Maritime Bell Beakers  my be who we are

No doubt the Pictones and Santones helped to spread our subclade and other branches of P312 around. Though it would have been at a later date. The Pictones and Santones are described as being around during the Iron age and are Celtic tribes. Whereas SRY2627 and the Beakers who most likely spread our clade are described as being in the Bronze age, where tin was added to copper to form Bronze. The Beakers arrived in Britain around 2500 b.c., our subclade is dated to around 3500 b.c. So we were most likely spread all along the Atlantic coast fairly early on and well before the Gaulish/Celtic tribes came to be. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the tribes your describing weren't important in the spread of our clade. But I don't think they were responsible for the early expansions we are discussing. Alot of SRY2627 ended up in places that eventually spoke Celtic languages, but it was already there before the spread of Celtic.

Also looking at this variance run that Rich Rocca posted, then we see the early relationship between Britain, Iberia and France.. France hasn't been tested enough, so the isn't represenative for that region, which no doubt is just as old as the Iberian and British samples.

DF27 Haplogroup Variance by Region @25 STRs
 




Iberia:
 
n=97
 
var=1.15
 


Britain & Ireland:
 
n=285
 
var=1.11
 


Germany:
 
n=34
 
var=1.09
 


Italy:
 
n=7
 
var=1.07
 


France:
 
n=56
 
var=1.02
 


Switzerland:
 
n=4
 
var=0.88
 


Low Countries:
 
n=12
 
var=0.77
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 04:22:41 PM by samIsaack » Logged

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« Reply #460 on: April 24, 2013, 04:16:24 PM »

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/24/ancient-europeans-genetic-transformation_n_3142552.html?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl22%7Csec3_lnk3%26pLid%3D303383
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #461 on: April 24, 2013, 04:20:57 PM »

All info I have found on these tribes even their names indicate to me they are not of the main celtic push but pre date it. So they may not even be true what people call true Celtic people but may have adapted to the Celtic life style
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« Reply #462 on: April 24, 2013, 04:37:23 PM »

All info I have found on these tribes even their names indicate to me they are not of the main celtic push but pre date it. So they may not even be true what people call true Celtic people but may have adapted to the Celtic life style

Either way you look at it, the Beakers and SRY2627 pre-date the Celts by a good 1000 years. The link you provided mentions that the beakers helped spread the Celtic language up and down the coast, isn't true. It spread the languages and culture that is most likely the pre-cursor to Celtic. That might be what they meant, but they should have worded it differently. If anything these guys (Pictones&Santones) would be a good source of describing your own specific ancient roots rather than the spread of our entire clade.
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« Reply #463 on: April 24, 2013, 05:59:23 PM »

All info I have found on these tribes even their names indicate to me they are not of the main celtic push but pre date it. So they may not even be true what people call true Celtic people but may have adapted to the Celtic life style

Either way you look at it, the Beakers and SRY2627 pre-date the Celts by a good 1000 years. The link you provided mentions that the beakers helped spread the Celtic language up and down the coast, isn't true. It spread the languages and culture that is most likely the pre-cursor to Celtic. That might be what they meant, but they should have worded it differently. If anything these guys (Pictones&Santones) would be a good source of describing your own specific ancient roots rather than the spread of our entire clade.

Well written. The fact with SRY2627 being some 3,500 years old puts the subclade into the Late Bronze Age. One thing I find fascinating is the connection of Falmouth, Cornwall to the site of the Nebra Sky Disk in Saxony, Germany. I find it absolutely incredible how far minerals from Cornwall/Devon reached throughout some far flung parts of Europe over 3,000 years ago. The ancient bronze age boat wrecks found in the Salcombe, Humber Estuary, etc., are signs that people were traveling far and abroad than we are led to believe.

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« Reply #464 on: April 24, 2013, 06:54:43 PM »

Sam Like you all I'm guessing . your clan could have made it to the UK with these people. All we can do is guess even with the bigger clades they are guessing Our big set backs is low numbers spread out.  My line I can't guarantee anything except from the town my family came from and the surname being French. You all toss tribes out there like visagoths and franks and vandels so I don't feel my ideas are any worse none can be proven
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #465 on: April 24, 2013, 09:26:05 PM »

I think what we really need besides aDNA, is the discovery of more subclades downstream, so that we can start to look for possible regional groupings.  I think that would start to unravel possible migration routes.  I went through all the surnames of possible and confirmed British origin in the Z220 group in the 1881 British census name profiler and Devon seems to be the hub for Z220.  But next to Devon the entire marches regions of Britain, that western part of England that borders Wales, seems to be a second hub.  In other words, higher in Devon and decreasing out gradually in a north eastern spread.
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« Reply #466 on: April 25, 2013, 12:38:02 AM »

Sam Like you all I'm guessing . your clan could have made it to the UK with these people. All we can do is guess even with the bigger clades they are guessing Our big set backs is low numbers spread out.  My line I can't guarantee anything except from the town my family came from and the surname being French. You all toss tribes out there like visagoths and franks and vandels so I don't feel my ideas are any worse none can be proven

I certainly don't mean offense. You can speculate all you want to. But when you present ideas on a forum like this, you have to expect them to be challenged.
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« Reply #467 on: April 25, 2013, 02:51:03 AM »

I think what we really need besides aDNA, is the discovery of more subclades downstream, so that we can start to look for possible regional groupings.  I think that would start to unravel possible migration routes.  I went through all the surnames of possible and confirmed British origin in the Z220 group in the 1881 British census name profiler and Devon seems to be the hub for Z220.  But next to Devon the entire marches regions of Britain, that western part of England that borders Wales, seems to be a second hub.  In other words, higher in Devon and decreasing out gradually in a north eastern spread.

If there are any subclades downstream of SRY2627 besides the private SNPs. I think it's possible but so far very little has come forth. There was one lingering around for a while but I have no idea where it went to or if it was decided to be a private SNP. If we look at the diversity aspect of SRY2627, for the most part it seems to be a bit higher in Britain than in France. Lots of jumps from one region to another which I'm thinking is due to maritime travel to include upstream on such rivers as the Rhine. I don't think it's that hard to get maritime people inland and a good example how we can find maritime bell beakers in Val d'Aran high up the Garonne/Garona. If anything the major watercourses inland helped to drive the coastal people inland more than the other way around. In terms of mountain life being better or used for a refuge I think it fluctuates depending on the circumstances. I looked at the population histograms of Val d'Aran and was amazed to see in certain periods there was obvious abandonment and then re-population in certain villages--in fact the re-populate villages today do not have the numbers they once had in the 1600s. In fact, Val d'Aran had more people at certain points than it does now (amazing stuff when you really dig into a history and sociology of a region). I like starting from here as obvious, mostly because of the frequency distribution in the Central Pyrenees. I have considered what could cause the extremely low diversity and that perhaps Val d'Aran was the last major clustering of a good portion of SRY2627. The variance being lower in France makes sense from the point that Val d'Aran is really a French facing region. What befuddles me is the higher diversity in Iberia than Germany and Britain (elsewhere it's pretty much a moot point, except to say they are lower than Iberia, Germany, Britain and France).

So that is one reason why I look at SRY2627's variance as an indicator that it was moving around the waterways and coastal ways of Europe. Not that hard to do and that makes it difficult. I think Z262 is what we really need to get a grasp on before we can make any definitive conclusions where SRY2627 originates and of course any downstream SNPs to find the terminal point so to speak. I would say this subclade moved around with great rapidity during the Late Bronze age and that is why we pretty much see it all over Europe. Only in recent history did it cluster and that is the evidence we have today with the academic studies and current corporate genomic data showing a great deal of SRY2627 in Iberia and southerly regions. I find it weird that a subclade that has predominately southern European affinities in studies does not have such with some genomic testing companies. If I am SRY2627+ I would be expecting to see a higher percentage of southern European in my ancestral painting offered by 23andMe and I'm not seeing it--which is really weird but I do see a small percentage of it. Meaning if there's a small percentage than it must mean that my ancestry lies within a zone near the Pyrenees or the Alps. Hopefully we can find a downstream SNP to compare against once we know the distribution of it. But for now we really need to get a grasp on Z262.

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« Reply #468 on: April 25, 2013, 03:05:02 AM »

Sam Like you all I'm guessing . your clan could have made it to the UK with these people. All we can do is guess even with the bigger clades they are guessing Our big set backs is low numbers spread out.  My line I can't guarantee anything except from the town my family came from and the surname being French. You all toss tribes out there like visagoths and franks and vandels so I don't feel my ideas are any worse none can be proven

It's not to say SRY2627 people could have been a part of the Pictones, Santones, etc. There is a strong likelihood of having SRY2627 in these tribes just as much I believe there is a strong chance of having SRY2627 men that were part of the Portola Expeditions in Alta California based on the premise that Portola's ancestral lineage is derived from Arties, Val d'Aran. Of course, I factor in the higher SRY2627 population in Catalonia and the Balearic Island of Mallorca. Odds are in my favor, however, I won't know until I find the living descendants of the men who participated in the two Portola expeditions. It all gets muddled afterwards as some men stayed and some went home and basically a whole new population of settlers arrived that mostly descended from other parts of Spain or Mexico itself. Here I am in the late 1700s trying to find an SRY2627 and having a difficult time in doing so. It's only going to be that much tougher for us to find a deceased Pictone, Santone to test DNA on and that is the frustrating part. All we can go with is looking at the modern picture based on current DNA tests from academia and genomic testing companies. We see a snapshot of recent history than we do of antiquity and it's frustrating to no end. However, we can look at upstream and downstream SNP distribution and variance to help clear up some of the mystery of regional affinity and possible points of recent migration and settlement. But it won't give us the answer of origins. The best we can do for now is hope for ancient DNA with the knowledge that our sublcade's molecular age puts it birth date within the Late Bronze Age of Western Europe.

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« Reply #469 on: April 25, 2013, 05:49:15 AM »

From What I have read about the Santone tribe is the tribe name has meaning in old Irish I think Sain is River and that they may have had an Italian outpost. The reason not much more info is out there is they helped the Romans so not much was written about them. Researchers and myself do not think these people are the normal Celts. They may having different origins
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« Reply #470 on: April 25, 2013, 04:29:42 PM »

I do not know if this applies to SRY2627, but I have gone back and looked at my 37 marker matches.  Steps 1 through 3 all share the same surname and also are matches with me at 67 markers.  All my 37 marker step 4 matches share a different surname, VanderHoof, Vanderhoef, and Vanderhoff.  When I look at the tip sheet for genetic distance, I show that we share a common ancestor around 1300.  Then I looked at the the history of England at around that time frame and viola, I found something interesting.  1300 is around the time that a huge influx of Flemish weavers flooded England from around the Flanders area due to flooding and other issues.  They were invited to England by Edward I and settled in along the Marches next to Wales.  This is actually the second wave.  The first wave of Flemish arrived with William the Conqueror as his son, Henry was half Flemish.  They were also settled in the Marches and a number of families who went on to become famous, such as the Bruce's and Stewarts might possibly be of Flemish ancestry and not Breton.
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« Reply #471 on: April 26, 2013, 02:50:45 AM »

I do not know if this applies to SRY2627, but I have gone back and looked at my 37 marker matches.  Steps 1 through 3 all share the same surname and also are matches with me at 67 markers.  All my 37 marker step 4 matches share a different surname, VanderHoof, Vanderhoef, and Vanderhoff.  When I look at the tip sheet for genetic distance, I show that we share a common ancestor around 1300.  Then I looked at the the history of England at around that time frame and viola, I found something interesting.  1300 is around the time that a huge influx of Flemish weavers flooded England from around the Flanders area due to flooding and other issues.  They were invited to England by Edward I and settled in along the Marches next to Wales.  This is actually the second wave.  The first wave of Flemish arrived with William the Conqueror as his son, Henry was half Flemish.  They were also settled in the Marches and a number of families who went on to become famous, such as the Bruce's and Stewarts might possibly be of Flemish ancestry and not Breton.

Interesting Flemish connections in Madeira Island too. It's a good possibility though about the weavers. My closest GD is actually Alberti in Northern Italy and also Julliet in around the Vienne region of France. Julliet registers closer to Alberti than I do, I am not sure what to make of it except if I calculated it right my common ancestry with Julliet is around 1300 AD with a GD of 21 at 67 markers, but I am also really close to Alberti at a GD of 17 at 67 markers. Seeing as how 23andMe gives me a small percentage of southern European I would presume to look south and then it gives me a bit higher number east and so it makes sense that Alberti is my closest match so far. After receiving some correspondence from the Mary Rose Trust in regards to yew bows, many were imported from Venice and I'm wondering if this perhaps could be connection with my surname. With Julliet it's near Poitiers and of course Gascony and around the Hundred Years War. I don't know what to make out of it. I did find a John Yeoman who was Yeomen at Eltham Palace around the 1400s late 1390s time frame. I have not been able to make any connection but I figured household servants were also called upon to be archers.

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« Reply #472 on: April 26, 2013, 04:55:07 AM »

Okay, this is getting interesting. I think my relationship to Simon Yeomans who is listed as a fishmonger from St. Botolph by Billingsgate, Middlesex, London is becoming more firm. He is listed on the The Second Charter of the Virginia Company in 1609.

Here's a point I think is interesting. Philip Durette is also mentioned in this charter. Lo and behold, there is a Durrett that is SRY2627 which allegedly traces lineage to him. I think it may be true as my GD to Durrett is 15 at 67 markers. It's the lowest GD to date I have so far.

The GD between the Tune and Durrett is 13 at 67 markers. The Tune family can trace their lineage to Upper Farnham, Northern Neck, VA and there is mention of a James Yeomans and possible relation with a James Tune in the mid 1650s. I have found a few Yeomans surnames in the region that date to an earlier time but I can't connect them.

What I find fascinating is how many SRY2627 cluster around the Richmond, VA area. Simon Yeomans son is Henry Yeomans, which may explain why my great grandfather had an H. as his middle initial. I'm not sure. But this is really becoming interesting. Simon's wife is Mary Barkely, who is the daughter of John Barkely, Esq. of Essex. I have his information somewhere and I can't confirm if this a connection with the Berkley family or not. I don't think it is, but it does point to Essex and perhaps a remote connection to the Appleby line--I don't know.

Anybody hungry for some fish and cheese?

:-)

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« Reply #473 on: April 27, 2013, 12:08:25 PM »

Va is were my family entered the US in 1700 but at Manikin Town Huguenot settelment. Glad to see your making some head way Arch!!!!
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #474 on: April 27, 2013, 05:44:55 PM »

Va is were my family entered the US in 1700 but at Manikin Town Huguenot settelment. Glad to see your making some head way Arch!!!!

Thanks. I noticed there was a Captain Yeoman that was suppose to deliver some people to Manikin, VA from London but he couldn't outfit the ship properly. I don't know if there is a connection but I am noticing a few SRY2627 folks in VA with a close GD to me.

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