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samIsaack
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« Reply #425 on: April 13, 2013, 03:06:45 AM »



Arch,
I have always enjoyed your leveled approach and respect what you have to say about our "little branch " although sometimes I have to admit I feel like you know more about my own birth place than I do...and I mean it. LOL.
Back to origins and spread of out twig, we do not stick out form P312 but we are always there, macro and micro sort of speak for P312 but I do think that frequency can really skew things up as far as low variance taken as a whole, reason being it is just a mathematical definition averaging, where frequency is high is just not right.Period.We are just using the prolific branches as the guideline.
Taken as a whole. I do think that the only weight that variance has  over frequency is that is saying...hey frequency is not proof of origins, which is rightly so but then we get pop ups of possible origins based on variance all over which I think is misleading.

anyhow  and trying to make this short... my lead is now Italy for our ancestry origins... but then the Bell Beakers are lurking in the background lol

Cheers

[/quote]

Thats kinda funny.. Out of our DF27 group I'd say most of us are pretty wirey and quick to get in an argument lol.. I of course have never engaged in such matters :)

Must be that Iberian machismo!
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
Isidro
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« Reply #426 on: April 13, 2013, 07:27:07 PM »



Arch,
I have always enjoyed your leveled approach and respect what you have to say about our "little branch " although sometimes I have to admit I feel like you know more about my own birth place than I do...and I mean it. LOL.
Back to origins and spread of out twig, we do not stick out form P312 but we are always there, macro and micro sort of speak for P312 but I do think that frequency can really skew things up as far as low variance taken as a whole, reason being it is just a mathematical definition averaging, where frequency is high is just not right.Period.We are just using the prolific branches as the guideline.
Taken as a whole. I do think that the only weight that variance has  over frequency is that is saying...hey frequency is not proof of origins, which is rightly so but then we get pop ups of possible origins based on variance all over which I think is misleading.

anyhow  and trying to make this short... my lead is now Italy for our ancestry origins... but then the Bell Beakers are lurking in the background lol

Cheers


Thats kinda funny.. Out of our DF27 group I'd say most of us are pretty wirey and quick to get in an argument lol.. I of course have never engaged in such matters :)

Must be that Iberian machismo!
[/quote]

Absolutely SamIsaack. I am all for some fun in diverging opinions, after all we are all scattered to begin with.., LoL.
Funny, cause sometimes I kind of like not knowing, that way I can imagine so many far flung distant travelings...Maybe is time for a poll about origins, I kind of miss that from DNA Forums.
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Haplogroups
Y-DNA    R1b1a2a1a1b5    Shorthand    R-L176.2 mtDNA    HV  23andMe: HV0

M269+ P312+ Z196+ L176.2+ Z198+

Z262- U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- M65- M37- M222- M153- L21- L165-

Brousse
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« Reply #427 on: April 14, 2013, 11:42:50 AM »

I have no affiliations in  Italy my A0 group are all French even on my step mutation chart for haplotype  only list French England and other European country's not Italy. If it came from Italy why are there not more now from there
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
samIsaack
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« Reply #428 on: April 14, 2013, 12:15:27 PM »

I have no affiliations in  Italy my A0 group are all French even on my step mutation chart for haplotype  only list French England and other European country's not Italy. If it came from Italy why are there not more now from there

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I don't have any known, recent connection to Italy either. I'm not saying that I ever will, but at the same time, I may have an as of yet undiscovered genetic "cousin" in that region as well.

Most of your close matches are going to have ancestry within the same general region as yourself. You need to look at higher than a few step matches, that aren't too wildly different from your own to get a better idea of your y-lines ancestral trail.
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
samIsaack
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« Reply #429 on: April 14, 2013, 12:24:44 PM »



Arch,
I have always enjoyed your leveled approach and respect what you have to say about our "little branch " although sometimes I have to admit I feel like you know more about my own birth place than I do...and I mean it. LOL.
Back to origins and spread of out twig, we do not stick out form P312 but we are always there, macro and micro sort of speak for P312 but I do think that frequency can really skew things up as far as low variance taken as a whole, reason being it is just a mathematical definition averaging, where frequency is high is just not right.Period.We are just using the prolific branches as the guideline.
Taken as a whole. I do think that the only weight that variance has  over frequency is that is saying...hey frequency is not proof of origins, which is rightly so but then we get pop ups of possible origins based on variance all over which I think is misleading.

anyhow  and trying to make this short... my lead is now Italy for our ancestry origins... but then the Bell Beakers are lurking in the background lol

Cheers


Thats kinda funny.. Out of our DF27 group I'd say most of us are pretty wirey and quick to get in an argument lol.. I of course have never engaged in such matters :)

Must be that Iberian machismo!

Absolutely SamIsaack. I am all for some fun in diverging opinions, after all we are all scattered to begin with.., LoL.
Funny, cause sometimes I kind of like not knowing, that way I can imagine so many far flung distant travelings...Maybe is time for a poll about origins, I kind of miss that from DNA Forums.

[/quote]

I enjoy arguing too! I simply can't escape it! Everyone on either side of my family are all stuborn and argumentative as all get out.

I feel the same way about not knowing and going through various cultures and peoples all within the same day! I made the same general point when I was more or less accused of not likeing the the idea of being Iberian, thus that was the reason why I was arguing. (different website)

I want to see all of the pieces before I try to assemble them. So I'm not going to just accept something without questioning it till I'm pretty much blue in the face!
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
Brousse
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« Reply #430 on: April 14, 2013, 03:13:12 PM »

Here are my one step mutations from FTDNA


Genetic Distance -1
Country  Match Total  Country Total  Percentage  Comments 
Czech Republic  1  676  0.1%   
England  6  23931  < 0.1 %   
France  2  3366  0.1%   
Germany  2  12073  < 0.1 %   
Ireland  2  14064  < 0.1 %   
Portugal  1  786  0.1%  Azores (1) 
Spain  1  3351  < 0.1 %   
Switzerland  1  1844  0.1%   
United Kingdom  3  10657  < 0.1 %  Shetland Islands (1) 
United States 
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
samIsaack
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« Reply #431 on: April 14, 2013, 04:16:27 PM »

Here are my one step mutations from FTDNA


Genetic Distance -1
Country  Match Total  Country Total  Percentage  Comments 
Czech Republic  1  676  0.1%   
England  6  23931  < 0.1 %   
France  2  3366  0.1%   
Germany  2  12073  < 0.1 %   
Ireland  2  14064  < 0.1 %   
Portugal  1  786  0.1%  Azores (1) 
Spain  1  3351  < 0.1 %   
Switzerland  1  1844  0.1%   
United Kingdom  3  10657  < 0.1 %  Shetland Islands (1) 
United States 


Are these people SRY2627 confirmed? How many markers were you comparing against?
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
Brousse
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« Reply #432 on: April 14, 2013, 07:09:36 PM »

I don't know Sam I did not look nothing up this is part of my FTDNA page it gives no other info
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
Arch Y.
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« Reply #433 on: April 14, 2013, 10:41:48 PM »

I don't know Sam I did not look nothing up this is part of my FTDNA page it gives no other info


My only 25 marker matches show up at 2 or steps in Essex, England. Yes, it's about pretty much useless what FTDNA shows on its marker matches. Appleby is my only match at 25 and none of them as I am aware are SRY2627. In fact, I'm glad as the project administrator seemed a little snippy at me at first. Sometimes there's quite a benefit to uselessness by ignoring it and never returning to the issue at hand.

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Isidro
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« Reply #434 on: April 15, 2013, 11:08:29 AM »

I have no affiliations in  Italy my A0 group are all French even on my step mutation chart for haplotype  only list French England and other European country's not Italy. If it came from Italy why are there not more now from there

Perhaps there is a missing link, not tested yet or never survived. My matches also veer strongly to Scotland and Scandinavia.
I don't know how far back we can trace Z196 or DF27 for that matter, if we assume that R1b came from the East, it could have taken many routes, so one of the question is along these routes when SRY2627 came to be in existence.
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Haplogroups
Y-DNA    R1b1a2a1a1b5    Shorthand    R-L176.2 mtDNA    HV  23andMe: HV0

M269+ P312+ Z196+ L176.2+ Z198+

Z262- U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- M65- M37- M222- M153- L21- L165-

Brousse
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« Reply #435 on: April 15, 2013, 11:23:02 AM »

These are not my y marker matches it was under haplotype matches
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
Brousse
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« Reply #436 on: April 15, 2013, 11:36:13 AM »

Here are Y search results I only picke genetic distance of one. I don't see how this helps with most not having their haplotype.


Compare User ID Pedigree Last Name Origin Haplogroup Tested With Markers Compared Genetic Distance 
 VK94K   Bruce Cognac, France  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  37 0
 7NJVQ   Bruce France  R1b1a2a1a1b5a (tested)  Family Tree DNA  37 0
 7BSHM   Bruce Unknown  R1b1a2a1a1b5a (tested)  Family Tree DNA  37 0
 Z4KHJ   Bruce Unknown  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  25 0
 QJUXJ   Klug Germany  Unknown  Other - ISFG  15 1
 Z9F22 Show Weston Newick, Sussex, England  Unknown  Other - Sorenson  13 1
 4R5EY   Bruce France  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  12 0
 48Z4Q   GREGOR Cornwall, England  R1b1*  Family Tree DNA  10 1
 EWXE8   L44 Unknown  R1b1a2a1a1a4a1*  Family Tree DNA  9 1
 9D53B   Aelfwald Unknown  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  9 1
 RY78M   Verge Amposta, Spain  Unknown  Oxford Ancestors  9 1
 DTRDF   Q-early 220/9 America Indians & Ancient Northern Europe, America  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  9 1
 65974   RIDOUT Sherborne, Dorset, England  Unknown  Oxford Ancestors  9 1
 XREKB   R-U198 superfamily a Unknown  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  8 1
 FHGJ3   U198 finder Unknown  R1b1a2a1a1a1*  Other - Ethnoancestry ; FTDNA  8 1
 SCAZ6   Winters slow markers Unknown  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  8 0
 TDKYT   R1b - DalRaida Scotts-Irish 687 persons on 8 markers, Argyllshire, Scotland  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  8 1
 HK7G3   Modal DF41-b Unknown  R1b1a2a1a1b4*  Family Tree DNA  8 1
 XMEXA   Barlow Slow Markers Unknown  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  8 1
 MGXXN   Frisian Kent, England  Unknown  Family Tree 
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
Brousse
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« Reply #437 on: April 15, 2013, 11:41:16 AM »

All the Bruce's on the list are my known cousins
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
Webb
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« Reply #438 on: April 15, 2013, 12:08:28 PM »

I have no affiliations in  Italy my A0 group are all French even on my step mutation chart for haplotype  only list French England and other European country's not Italy. If it came from Italy why are there not more now from there

Perhaps there is a missing link, not tested yet or never survived. My matches also veer strongly to Scotland and Scandinavia.
I don't know how far back we can trace Z196 or DF27 for that matter, if we assume that R1b came from the East, it could have taken many routes, so one of the question is along these routes when SRY2627 came to be in existence.

I am leaning to some sort of migration of Z196 from Iberia up along the coast of France into the Netherlands and from there into Scandanavia or from Scandanavia down along the coast of France into Iberia, or as you said from the east and then they split into a "Y", some heading south into Iberia, while some headed north to Scandanavia.  L165, which is a brother branch to SRY2627 is found heavy in the Western Isles of Scotland and in Scandanavia, and I know that on the P312 project, under the Z220 guys, uphill from me is a person of French ancestry, and below me is a person of ancetry from the Netherlands.  It still makes me wonder about the Vandal/Franks/Goths haplotypes.  Were they predominately Z196 and not the usual R1a and I types?  Maybe this is why there seems to be a Scandanavian connection.
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William B. Webb
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Brousse
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« Reply #439 on: April 17, 2013, 09:01:34 AM »

It makes it very hard to take any matches at Y search for real with the lack of tested haplotypes  in my genetic distance of 2 there are only a few with tested haplotypes
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #440 on: April 17, 2013, 01:54:42 PM »

Here are Y search results I only picke genetic distance of one. I don't see how this helps with most not having their haplotype.
 
 XMEXA   Barlow Slow Markers Unknown  Unknown  Family Tree DNA  8 1
Oh hi, that XMEXA was just me messing about with spreadsheets ages ago. I'd ignore it if I were you, as I have no real idea what I'm doing , as usual.
I'm DF13asterisk so far, and at a bit of a loss as to which single SNP to pay for next (Geno is a bit rich for my tastes at the moment).

(What I did was reorder the markers "slowest" to "middling", according to the Chandler inferred/calculated mutation rates and Janszen amendments, and then went fishing on Ysearch just to see if anything popped up, as we're stranded out on some tiny twig, apparently sitting down near the L21 root with a couple of other surnames.
 It came out pretty much as the conventional ordering, with the same few names in a tight bunch and then a bit of a jump to the h-types above and below on the spreadsheet, i.e. nobody likes us and we don't care lol.)
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samIsaack
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« Reply #441 on: April 17, 2013, 02:15:21 PM »

It makes it very hard to take any matches at Y search for real with the lack of tested haplotypes  in my genetic distance of 2 there are only a few with tested haplotypes

Look at my ysearch account for example.. It has me listed as predicted SRY2627, when infact I tested positive for it long ago. You have to go through and compare Str's with people. Don't write off an account just because they aren't confirmed SRY2627. You have to crunch the numbers, so to speak, and do alot of investigation.

My Devonshire cousin was only predicted R1b1a2 when I discovered him. Our Str's were very similar and we shared the same surname. So, I had him test for SRY2627 and BAM! I've got a link back to the old country.
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
Arch Y.
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« Reply #442 on: April 18, 2013, 01:20:35 AM »

It makes it very hard to take any matches at Y search for real with the lack of tested haplotypes  in my genetic distance of 2 there are only a few with tested haplotypes

Look at my ysearch account for example.. It has me listed as predicted SRY2627, when infact I tested positive for it long ago. You have to go through and compare Str's with people. Don't write off an account just because they aren't confirmed SRY2627. You have to crunch the numbers, so to speak, and do alot of investigation.

My Devonshire cousin was only predicted R1b1a2 when I discovered him. Our Str's were very similar and we shared the same surname. So, I had him test for SRY2627 and BAM! I've got a link back to the old country.

Where is he located in Devonshire and how far back can he trace his lineage to the area? I suspect Devonshire was a sort of "hotbed" for SRY2627 in Britain for quite some time. That is cool that you finally found a link across the pond.

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samIsaack
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« Reply #443 on: April 18, 2013, 12:38:41 PM »

It makes it very hard to take any matches at Y search for real with the lack of tested haplotypes  in my genetic distance of 2 there are only a few with tested haplotypes

Look at my ysearch account for example.. It has me listed as predicted SRY2627, when infact I tested positive for it long ago. You have to go through and compare Str's with people. Don't write off an account just because they aren't confirmed SRY2627. You have to crunch the numbers, so to speak, and do alot of investigation.

My Devonshire cousin was only predicted R1b1a2 when I discovered him. Our Str's were very similar and we shared the same surname. So, I had him test for SRY2627 and BAM! I've got a link back to the old country.

Where is he located in Devonshire and how far back can he trace his lineage to the area? I suspect Devonshire was a sort of "hotbed" for SRY2627 in Britain for quite some time. That is cool that you finally found a link across the pond.

Arch

I traced and confirmed his line back to a Thomas Isaac, baptised 1693 in Winkleigh, Devon. I have it back further to the late 1500's, but I can't confirm it 100%. My actual living cousin isn't from Devon himself, but his Great Grandfather was born and raised there (Zeal monachorum) and later immigrated to Kansas.

I also have my own specific y-line traced to Winkleigh with a Samuel Isaac marrying an Elizabeth Crocker in 1676. They had a son named Samuel, born 1678 as well and I believe he is the first of my family to settle in the Colonies.

*Which now that I think about it, I'd say the reason the records stop would be due to the Prayer book rebellion going on at the time. The first act of defiance was in Sampford, Courtenay, which is just a hop and a skip from Winkleigh. The family, the ones who remained in Devon anyway, were Church of England for as long as I could trace. Which unless I am mistaken is a sort of conglomeration of Catholic and Protestant views.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 01:09:14 PM by samIsaack » Logged

Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
Dubhthach
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« Reply #444 on: April 18, 2013, 04:14:02 PM »

In American context you would call the "Church of England" Episcopalian, though usal term used on this side of water is "Anglican" (Church of Ireland is Anglican).

There are number of different strands within that church (High Church vs. Low Church), with some arguring that parts of "High Church" are basically "Anglo-Catholic"

Of course the main reason behind the existence of the Church of England was that Henry VIII was keen that his Y-Chromosome would get passed on! ;-)
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Arch Y.
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« Reply #445 on: April 19, 2013, 03:39:06 PM »

It makes it very hard to take any matches at Y search for real with the lack of tested haplotypes  in my genetic distance of 2 there are only a few with tested haplotypes

Look at my ysearch account for example.. It has me listed as predicted SRY2627, when infact I tested positive for it long ago. You have to go through and compare Str's with people. Don't write off an account just because they aren't confirmed SRY2627. You have to crunch the numbers, so to speak, and do alot of investigation.

My Devonshire cousin was only predicted R1b1a2 when I discovered him. Our Str's were very similar and we shared the same surname. So, I had him test for SRY2627 and BAM! I've got a link back to the old country.

Where is he located in Devonshire and how far back can he trace his lineage to the area? I suspect Devonshire was a sort of "hotbed" for SRY2627 in Britain for quite some time. That is cool that you finally found a link across the pond.

Arch

I traced and confirmed his line back to a Thomas Isaac, baptised 1693 in Winkleigh, Devon. I have it back further to the late 1500's, but I can't confirm it 100%. My actual living cousin isn't from Devon himself, but his Great Grandfather was born and raised there (Zeal monachorum) and later immigrated to Kansas.

I also have my own specific y-line traced to Winkleigh with a Samuel Isaac marrying an Elizabeth Crocker in 1676. They had a son named Samuel, born 1678 as well and I believe he is the first of my family to settle in the Colonies.

*Which now that I think about it, I'd say the reason the records stop would be due to the Prayer book rebellion going on at the time. The first act of defiance was in Sampford, Courtenay, which is just a hop and a skip from Winkleigh. The family, the ones who remained in Devon anyway, were Church of England for as long as I could trace. Which unless I am mistaken is a sort of conglomeration of Catholic and Protestant views.

For the longest time I have been trying to see if there's any association with the Rivers Yeo in that area to my surname and I have not been successful. I know of the Yeo family however. I think they took their name from the region rather than the region taking the name from the family as there are many rivers Yeo throughout southwest England (in particular Devon and Somerset) areas. If my memory serves me right there is the Congresbury Yeo near and south of Bristol, Blind Yeo, Cheddar Yeo (Cheddar Caves), Land Yeo, Lapford Yeo, and some others. Mostly between a stretch from Dartmoor to Exmoor and Mendips. I prefer Cheddar Yeo because of the cheese.

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« Reply #446 on: April 19, 2013, 10:38:35 PM »

For the longest time I have been trying to see if there's any association with the Rivers Yeo in that area to my surname

Do you have some reason to think the surname -- which has long been a word in standard English -- is older than the normal use of the term?

http://etymonline.com/?term=yeoman

I don't mean to imply that the family isn't an old one, but it's also quite an old word, with a meaning not apparently related to those rivers.
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« Reply #447 on: April 20, 2013, 03:49:38 AM »

For the longest time I have been trying to see if there's any association with the Rivers Yeo in that area to my surname

Do you have some reason to think the surname -- which has long been a word in standard English -- is older than the normal use of the term?

http://etymonline.com/?term=yeoman

I don't mean to imply that the family isn't an old one, but it's also quite an old word, with a meaning not apparently related to those rivers.


Couple of things to consider. Did the family adopt the name from the river itself? I have to even question the Yeo line which is well settled in the region. I sincerely doubt this family would have such an extensive influence to have imposed their surname upon several rivers over an expanse from the Dartmoor to Bristol. If so, then perhaps their influence was greater than that of many dukes and kings. So I suppose they adopted their surname based upon the Anglo-Saxon naming of the rivers. Even this I'm not sure how the AS would get Yeo from Nymet or Sacred? Or Ivel from allegedly the Romans. The names Taw, Yeo, Exe seem ancient to me. I do recall there was some ancient towns in Belerion mentioned by Ptolemy I suppose it is possible that perhaps he had a more accurate source of place names uninfluenced by any Roman or Anglo-Saxon. Obviously this is the land Bel but I wished I knew more about the Celtic or perhaps Pre-Indo-European naming conventions of this region.

Coming back to modernity. I could say that Yeo is derived from gau or -ge (District) or is a contraction of yonge/younger latin iuventes? It seems to me the ill-informed automatically ascribe it to farmer, when farmer has other naming conventions such as bauer or friebauer, gebur? The term farmer was attached yeoman in the 1600s and such as been associated with it as a class of farmer, however, the term goes beyond that and the furthest in historical or ancient context known is geongramannus or something to that effect (found in Beowulf, meaning manservant). This is no different than the Yeomen in the sense of royal and/or noble households. It is a rank below sergeant (deputy or assistant). But what if it's not ascribed to an occupation, status, or rank? So I looked at rivers, valleys, mountains, hills, etc, as a possible option.

Yeoford (water crossing?), Yeovil (water village?) are examples of names I pondered about. What does it mean? Water? Eau has a similar sound but I'm not sure. Yeo, Eau, Gau, ??? I don't know. I found some Phoenician terms that could apply in terms of being a rowing servant (I can't remember what exactly the word was, but is was similar Gau). I looked at some Tocharian in terms of Manye (servant). I searched high and low to get to the bottom of its roots aside from the traditional belief that originates from a Germanic language possible out of southern Bavaria based on gau. Which are found in various regions of Switzerland. I always keep coming back to wondering how such simple three letters of Exe, Taw, Yeo, etc look ancient and non-Indo European. Exe - Ter (Ter could be a Basque or Iberian term) River Ter is found in Catalonia and Old North Catalonia. Ton, is obviously from Germanic town.

In closing, I simply don't know where it originated and what its true meaning means.

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Brousse
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« Reply #448 on: April 22, 2013, 12:10:36 PM »

I don't know Arch if surnames are that important as to the origin of SRY2627 My family's original surname of Brousse is 100% French I guess meaning my family had at least been in France since the on set of surnames Although it has shown me my only 100% matches are of cousins our only hope now is they find viable ancient Y DNA  which is hard to do. I don't think any of the lands we hail from are prone to produce natural mummies and we have no permafrost. Cave remains may be our only hope I still hold out hope as well for someday proving a connection to the PICTS. The Roman's are the biggest killer to our quest The assimilation of our people and culture Thus making it extremely hard to track things down especially with being a small group.  IMO We all do share some common traits our love for history and our quest for who we are. And Soldiering seems to be a trait as well
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
Arch Y.
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« Reply #449 on: April 22, 2013, 03:22:35 PM »

I don't know Arch if surnames are that important as to the origin of SRY2627 My family's original surname of Brousse is 100% French I guess meaning my family had at least been in France since the on set of surnames Although it has shown me my only 100% matches are of cousins our only hope now is they find viable ancient Y DNA  which is hard to do. I don't think any of the lands we hail from are prone to produce natural mummies and we have no permafrost. Cave remains may be our only hope I still hold out hope as well for someday proving a connection to the PICTS. The Roman's are the biggest killer to our quest The assimilation of our people and culture Thus making it extremely hard to track things down especially with being a small group.  IMO We all do share some common traits our love for history and our quest for who we are. And Soldiering seems to be a trait as well

I believe the age of our subclade has been worked over quite thoroughly over the last
15 years now. So we should probably start with the age of the subclade being around 3,500 years old (1,500 BCE). Obviously surnames were not around then and not even Romans in the sense that we know them were around, just the little backwaters of the Latium city-state. This was the age of Carthage's rise and I firmly believe Carthage is a major influence of spreading people around just as much as Rome was. We should not forget that we have SRY2627 in Tunisia today. This very well may be a remnant of an Iberian or Celtiberian influence in the region in support of Carthage fighting an increasingly powerful Rome. We also must not forget the importance of the Ilergetes were for the Carthaginian army and cavalry specifically. At times, the Ilergetes were referred to as Celtiberians or Celtiberi (not Iberian Celts). Their homeland was what today known as the Llieda Province of Catalonia. Which includes Val d'Aran but I am aware Val d'Aran is a latecomer in the political structure of Hispania Tarraconesis of earlier times. It simply had more influence in the region of Novembpopulana and the later Comminges before it was attached to the Pallars and eventually Catalonia. We are fortunate to have some information about the earlier Pyrenean tribes that I am certain are Aquitani (Aeronosii (Val d'Aran region), Andosinii (Andorra region), and Serdones (Cerdanya region). So going back to the age of the subclade being around 3,500 years old, one can pretty much surmise this is a Late Bronze Age subclade with origins near or within the Pyrenees itself. I am led to believe its origins have to lie around a point to where we see SRY2627 influence in the Mediterranean zones of Western Europe. SRY2627 has its largest showing in Catalonia. Nothing has refuted this evidence after 16 years plus now. Furthermore, Catalonia is a pretty large area and I have a hard time believing that SRY2627 holed up in every nook and cranny to have genetic drift take place (replacing the older population to smaller numbers). That's a lot of intercourse and having babies throughout all of the Central to Eastern Pyrenees. Or we must be descended from one  sheep herder who managed to woo the Pyrenean women on every transhumance pathway.

I have a hard time believing that our population would be so large in this region and nowhere else that the region of Catalonia has no effect on origins. I think we can dispense with the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" rhetoric when it comes to the bigger picture. We have had sufficient time and studies to allow us a pretty good understanding where SRY2627 is found today. When we factor in all the other studies that have been done on other subclades and what has been discovered, SRY2627 has come up extremely low in numbers to the point of being non-existent. This I can agree with about the absence thing, because we can't get everybody and there's always bound to be hidden SRY2627 here and there. Sampling populations does not mean sampling the whole population.

So now I got that off my chest, back to the distribution picture. I believe that the Romans (just like the Carthaginians) did a lot to disburse people, assimilate borders but not so much cultures. The reason why I say this is due to the fact that we have certain groups of peoples with certain languages and cultures that tend to cluster even today. The Koreatown, Chinatowns, Little Italy, etc. are good examples of how we tend to cluster with what we best associate with even when under the rule of a dominant culture and language not our own. Obviously, wealth, influence and so forth can distance a person or persons from their associated cultural groups. For the most part there will be an affinity towards their heritage even if they are removed from their homeland or eventually relocated away from the migrant clusters in their newly adopted country or region. People tend to stick to what they know. That is the case I would have to say must exists for Val d'Aran and that of Gascony and Catalonia. Based on modern DNA we see that frequency distribution prominent in those regions stretching from the Mediterranean coast to the Atlantic and it should be no surprise that the Pyrenees are at the crossroads (they have been since time immemorial).

Back to the age of SRY2627. It makes me wonder why we see Late Bronze Age structures in the high valleys of Val d'Aran that are essentially tied to the Maritime Bell Beakers. I find that particularly interesting because often we associate our older immediate subclades with the Bell Beakers. Even more interesting is the amount of the Late Bronze Age influence found so far inland and high up the Central Pyrenees. There are very few if any Neolithic finds in this region, as most of the Neolithic artifacts are found near the Mediterranean region or further south and north of the high Central Pyrenees. If there are Maritime Bell Beakers found in Val d'Aran, the obvious influence is that of an Atlantic trade-exchange network and cultures. So I have a tendency to believe that SRY2627 is strongly influenced by Gascon culture within modernity but in antiquity, it's a Late Bronze Age Maritime culture that even found its way towards Scandinavia.

Off subject somewhat: I'm also interested in finding out why I have a high autosomal count in Baja California and if its attributed to the Portola Expeditions of early California history. I picked up a book from the Santa Barbara Historical Society at the Presidio and found out that Gaspar de Portola's family originates from Arties, Val d'Aran. I think he had a contingent of some 25 men from the Free Company of Catalonian Volunteers as well a few "Leather Jacket Men" from Catalonia. Most originated from the Lleida region. The famous priests such as Father Junipero Serra hailed from Mallorca and they established the famous 28 California Missions while the Catalan soldiers and engineers were establishing the 4 Presidios. I often contemplate how many of those men or even if Gaspar Portola was SRY2627. I am doing my best to locate the families who are descended from the men of these early expeditions in order to convince them to have their y-DNA tested. I know Portola was buried in Llieda, Catalonia--it would be quite interesting if we could get a sample of his y-DNA.

Arch





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