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Webb
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« Reply #400 on: April 07, 2013, 09:02:23 AM »

All I was doing was looking at both the Pictones and Santones are a maritime People and no doubt traded and may have established settlements else where

But they could be.  If the age is around 1000 B.C., then they could have become Iberian, Belgic, Germanic, any of these things if the group already had a wide spread by the time of the Halstatt.
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William B. Webb
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« Reply #401 on: April 07, 2013, 09:06:02 AM »

Sam I'm taking the Celtic element out . If our Clade is 3000 years old what time period does this put us as far as Gaul goes? When did the first Easten Europeans invade into western Europe?

Exactly.  That would be 1000 B.C.  I'm Z220 which has the same age.  The Halstatt began about 800 B.C., so most "Celts" as historians called them, start then.  That's not to say if L21 was in Iberia, and L21 in Switzerland became Celts, then the L21 in Iberia could be considered proto-celts.  The age right before the Halstatt was the Urnfield and to me this is a much better fit for our clades of DF27, but I keep getting told that the Urnfield was more of a religion than anything else, however that was the time period that an enormous amount of hill forts started cropping up in Europe.  The map on Wiki shows the spread of the Urnfield and it seems interesting.  Other folk have linked DF27 with the Bell Beakers, but I think that is too old for our groups.

I could be wrong, but I think you see the real Celtic correlation not with any single clade but with P312 overall. L21 has good coverage for the insular Celts but gets a little shakier on the Continent. U152 is good for some of the Continental Celts, but gets really shaky in the Isles. SRY2627 is similar to U152 in that regard but also has an Isles presence.

So I'm thinking the early Celts might have been mostly undifferentiated P312 and that, later, the various clade-defining SNPs arose in their male descendants, especially in chiefs who were able to have multiple wives, concubines, etc., and pass on their SNPs to their sons. Thus SRY2627, like L21 and U152, could very well have arisen in a Celtic or at least Beaker context.

Agreed, I used L21 as an example.  I personally agree that L21 is insular in the isles and has probably been there for a very long time due to the concentrations there.  Also, I recently pored through the different geographical projects on FTDNA, and found several U152, L21, and SRY2627 in the Lebanon and Turkey projects.  This could support your mixed types theory of the Celts if these markers in Asia Minor were there as a result of Celtic Incursions.

How much of that could have been left during the Holy Crusades?

I'm sure that's a possibility.  You would have to compare the STR strings and specific subclades to say for sure.  We know the Halstatt spread into Asia Minor, so I would think there would be some genetic evidence found there from those incursions.
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William B. Webb
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Arch Y.
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« Reply #402 on: April 08, 2013, 05:23:45 AM »

Well Arch I will stick with SW France as the origin The diversity is greater in France all roads point to France why is that so hard to accept? I don't think Gareth would send me that unless he was pretty sure as well and like he said until it changes that is what he thinks . I don't really care to which tribe just the fact SRY2627 seems to have a birth place there is enough for me. Knowing my family may have been in place from the birth of sry2627 to our exile

Unfortunately, it's just to easy to fall into the diversity trap as it is the frequency trap (the latter of which I am guilty of). Seems like new studies are showing interesting twists to SNPEs, which if correct, essentially make it nearly impossible to find any point/region of origin, as well the molecular age of an SNP. So, I'm holding out for ancient DNA and even that is subject to change.

What I can agree with is that within fairly recent history there appears to be a lot of SRY2627 in Gascony and Catalonia, more specifically in the Pyrenees than anywhere else. Does it mean it originated there? Nope. It only means there is a high population of males that are SRY2627+ which could be attributed to genetic drift/founder effects, etc. Whatever the case, I am not denying there is a high presence in the La Rochelle region, but those numbers have not stacked up higher than the Pyrenean regions. I sincerely doubt those numbers will show otherwise anytime soon. Remember, those who tested at FTDNA for SNPs are greater than the numbers research studies have done over the course of the last 10-15 years now.

What I am asking is: Where are the SRY2627 frequencies in SW France (in particular, La Rochelle) versus the numbers found in the Midi-Pyrenees and specifically in areas such as Val d'Aran and the rest of Iberia? Factor in the numerous studies and I think it becomes apparent if we go by the numbers only, that Iberia would be the point of origin for SRY2627. If we go by diversity, then we should be looking towards Poland.

Either choice is most likely not correct--we need ancient DNA for a better answer than what we get from frequency and diversity distribution. We simply don't have the kind of numbers of SRY2627 to make a good guess because our SNP is too widespread.

Arch
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Brousse
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« Reply #403 on: April 08, 2013, 06:22:01 AM »

What is your idea of   "within fairly recent history" ? Why does Gareth think it's origin to be France ? Didier and myself are seperated by a couple thousand years at least and both are of French blood
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 08:36:22 AM by Brousse » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #404 on: April 08, 2013, 10:45:36 AM »

Well Arch I will stick with SW France as the origin The diversity is greater in France all roads point to France why is that so hard to accept? I don't think Gareth would send me that unless he was pretty sure as well and like he said until it changes that is what he thinks . I don't really care to which tribe just the fact SRY2627 seems to have a birth place there is enough for me. Knowing my family may have been in place from the birth of sry2627 to our exile

Unfortunately, it's just to easy to fall into the diversity trap as it is the frequency trap (the latter of which I am guilty of). Seems like new studies are showing interesting twists to SNPEs, which if correct, essentially make it nearly impossible to find any point/region of origin, as well the molecular age of an SNP. So, I'm holding out for ancient DNA and even that is subject to change.

What I can agree with is that within fairly recent history there appears to be a lot of SRY2627 in Gascony and Catalonia, more specifically in the Pyrenees than anywhere else. Does it mean it originated there? Nope. It only means there is a high population of males that are SRY2627+ which could be attributed to genetic drift/founder effects, etc. Whatever the case, I am not denying there is a high presence in the La Rochelle region, but those numbers have not stacked up higher than the Pyrenean regions. I sincerely doubt those numbers will show otherwise anytime soon. Remember, those who tested at FTDNA for SNPs are greater than the numbers research studies have done over the course of the last 10-15 years now.

What I am asking is: Where are the SRY2627 frequencies in SW France (in particular, La Rochelle) versus the numbers found in the Midi-Pyrenees and specifically in areas such as Val d'Aran and the rest of Iberia? Factor in the numerous studies and I think it becomes apparent if we go by the numbers only, that Iberia would be the point of origin for SRY2627. If we go by diversity, then we should be looking towards Poland.

Either choice is most likely not correct--we need ancient DNA for a better answer than what we get from frequency and diversity distribution. We simply don't have the kind of numbers of SRY2627 to make a good guess because our SNP is too widespread.

Arch

I think it is clear that those of us with French ancestry (and possibly English) can presume that our ancestors at one time lived in southwestern France.  It would be a natural migration pattern to move up the western coast of France to areas like La Rochelle, Brittany, and perhaps even the southwestern coast of England.  For that matter, keep in mind that La Rochelle was a port city and people came there from all over France.
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Brousse
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« Reply #405 on: April 08, 2013, 10:53:19 AM »

My 8th Great Grandfather Jacques Brousse was a leather merchant from Cognac  His Wife Sara Cornu came from Talliebourg
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #406 on: April 08, 2013, 01:54:46 PM »

Well Arch I will stick with SW France as the origin The diversity is greater in France all roads point to France why is that so hard to accept? I don't think Gareth would send me that unless he was pretty sure as well and like he said until it changes that is what he thinks . I don't really care to which tribe just the fact SRY2627 seems to have a birth place there is enough for me. Knowing my family may have been in place from the birth of sry2627 to our exile

Unfortunately, it's just to easy to fall into the diversity trap as it is the frequency trap (the latter of which I am guilty of). Seems like new studies are showing interesting twists to SNPEs, which if correct, essentially make it nearly impossible to find any point/region of origin, as well the molecular age of an SNP. So, I'm holding out for ancient DNA and even that is subject to change.

What I can agree with is that within fairly recent history there appears to be a lot of SRY2627 in Gascony and Catalonia, more specifically in the Pyrenees than anywhere else. Does it mean it originated there? Nope. It only means there is a high population of males that are SRY2627+ which could be attributed to genetic drift/founder effects, etc. Whatever the case, I am not denying there is a high presence in the La Rochelle region, but those numbers have not stacked up higher than the Pyrenean regions. I sincerely doubt those numbers will show otherwise anytime soon. Remember, those who tested at FTDNA for SNPs are greater than the numbers research studies have done over the course of the last 10-15 years now.

What I am asking is: Where are the SRY2627 frequencies in SW France (in particular, La Rochelle) versus the numbers found in the Midi-Pyrenees and specifically in areas such as Val d'Aran and the rest of Iberia? Factor in the numerous studies and I think it becomes apparent if we go by the numbers only, that Iberia would be the point of origin for SRY2627. If we go by diversity, then we should be looking towards Poland.

Either choice is most likely not correct--we need ancient DNA for a better answer than what we get from frequency and diversity distribution. We simply don't have the kind of numbers of SRY2627 to make a good guess because our SNP is too widespread.

Arch

I think it is clear that those of us with French ancestry (and possibly English) can presume that our ancestors at one time lived in southwestern France.  It would be a natural migration pattern to move up the western coast of France to areas like La Rochelle, Brittany, and perhaps even the southwestern coast of England.  For that matter, keep in mind that La Rochelle was a port city and people came there from all over France.

I agree and that's a very fortunate position. No doubt the records even back up the genetic data and that's good. But I think it's a bit of a stretch to state SRY2627 was born in this region of France just as much as it's a bit of stretch to state that it was born in Iberia-we simply do not know where SRY2627 originated from. If we go the route of looking at diversity within SRY2627 DYS490=10, that alone should point to a more easterly location of Bourges. If I was a betting man, I would say Northern Italy is closer to SRY2627's point of origin. At least my closest GD in Europe is Julliet. And that of Julliet's seems to be nearest to SRY2627 folks in Southern Germany, Northern Italy and Switzerland.  If we want to ascribe a possibility of Helvetii, I can perhaps agree that SRY2627 would make up a good portion but of an earlier stock whatever tribe that may be.

Arch
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Jason Bourgeois
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« Reply #407 on: April 08, 2013, 02:16:55 PM »


What I am asking is: Where are the SRY2627 frequencies in SW France (in particular, La Rochelle) versus the numbers found in the Midi-Pyrenees and specifically in areas such as Val d'Aran and the rest of Iberia? Factor in the numerous studies and I think it becomes apparent if we go by the numbers only, that Iberia would be the point of origin for SRY2627. If we go by diversity, then we should be looking towards Poland.

Either choice is most likely not correct--we need ancient DNA for a better answer than what we get from frequency and diversity distribution. We simply don't have the kind of numbers of SRY2627 to make a good guess because our SNP is too widespread.

Arch

A 2012 study by Martinez-Cruz found the following percentages of SRY2627:  7% in the three French departments of the Pays de Basque, 16% in Bearn (France), 14% in Bigorre (France), 7% in Chalosse (France), 6% in the Basque regions of Spain, 15% in La Rioja (Spain), and 19% in northern Aragon (Spain).  A separate study found 8% in the city of Toulouse (Midi-Pyrenees).

Another way to break down this data is by department. 
Those of France= Pyrenees-Atlantiques, 9%; Hautes-Pyrenees, 14%; Landes, 7%; Haute-Garonne, 8%.
Those of Spain= Cantabria, 1%; La Rioja, 15%; Basque country, 6%; Aragon, 19%.

Clearly the highest percentages are found on both sides of the Pyrenees, clustering between the Basque country and Toulouse.
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ArmandoR1b
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« Reply #408 on: April 09, 2013, 06:17:35 AM »


What I am asking is: Where are the SRY2627 frequencies in SW France (in particular, La Rochelle) versus the numbers found in the Midi-Pyrenees and specifically in areas such as Val d'Aran and the rest of Iberia? Factor in the numerous studies and I think it becomes apparent if we go by the numbers only, that Iberia would be the point of origin for SRY2627. If we go by diversity, then we should be looking towards Poland.

Either choice is most likely not correct--we need ancient DNA for a better answer than what we get from frequency and diversity distribution. We simply don't have the kind of numbers of SRY2627 to make a good guess because our SNP is too widespread.

Arch

A 2012 study by Martinez-Cruz found the following percentages of SRY2627:  7% in the three French departments of the Pays de Basque, 16% in Bearn (France), 14% in Bigorre (France), 7% in Chalosse (France), 6% in the Basque regions of Spain, 15% in La Rioja (Spain), and 19% in northern Aragon (Spain).  A separate study found 8% in the city of Toulouse (Midi-Pyrenees).

Another way to break down this data is by department. 
Those of France= Pyrenees-Atlantiques, 9%; Hautes-Pyrenees, 14%; Landes, 7%; Haute-Garonne, 8%.
Those of Spain= Cantabria, 1%; La Rioja, 15%; Basque country, 6%; Aragon, 19%.

Clearly the highest percentages are found on both sides of the Pyrenees, clustering between the Basque country and Toulouse.

However, that does not tell us if that is where the point of origin is or if that is where SRY2627 prospered. An archaeological find of human remains of ancient DNA would tell us it existed in a specific location within a certain time frame but it still wouldn't tell us if that location was the point of origin.
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« Reply #409 on: April 09, 2013, 07:33:34 PM »

However, that does not tell us if that is where the point of origin is or if that is where SRY2627 prospered. An archaeological find of human remains of ancient DNA would tell us it existed in a specific location within a certain time frame but it still wouldn't tell us if that location was the point of origin.

True, but I am not really looking for the point of origin (if that can ever be known).
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Arch Y.
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« Reply #410 on: April 10, 2013, 01:14:02 AM »


What I am asking is: Where are the SRY2627 frequencies in SW France (in particular, La Rochelle) versus the numbers found in the Midi-Pyrenees and specifically in areas such as Val d'Aran and the rest of Iberia? Factor in the numerous studies and I think it becomes apparent if we go by the numbers only, that Iberia would be the point of origin for SRY2627. If we go by diversity, then we should be looking towards Poland.

Either choice is most likely not correct--we need ancient DNA for a better answer than what we get from frequency and diversity distribution. We simply don't have the kind of numbers of SRY2627 to make a good guess because our SNP is too widespread.

Arch

A 2012 study by Martinez-Cruz found the following percentages of SRY2627:  7% in the three French departments of the Pays de Basque, 16% in Bearn (France), 14% in Bigorre (France), 7% in Chalosse (France), 6% in the Basque regions of Spain, 15% in La Rioja (Spain), and 19% in northern Aragon (Spain).  A separate study found 8% in the city of Toulouse (Midi-Pyrenees).

Another way to break down this data is by department. 
Those of France= Pyrenees-Atlantiques, 9%; Hautes-Pyrenees, 14%; Landes, 7%; Haute-Garonne, 8%.
Those of Spain= Cantabria, 1%; La Rioja, 15%; Basque country, 6%; Aragon, 19%.

Clearly the highest percentages are found on both sides of the Pyrenees, clustering between the Basque country and Toulouse.

This study as well subsequent studies seem to support the study of high frequencies of SRY2627 in the Pyrenees. However, as Mike pointed out most of them have lower diversity than SRY2627 outside of the Pyrenees. The 19% in Aragon is in the Huesca Province which borders Catalonia/Val d'Aran. So the highest percentages so far are within the region of Val d'Aran if we want to focus on the numbers. The numbers of SRY2627 pretty much taper off from this region in all directions but more so in the region of France than in Spain. Huesca Province frequency is right around the same numbers Alt Urgell and Cerdanya.

Arch
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« Reply #411 on: April 10, 2013, 03:41:02 AM »

What is your idea of   "within fairly recent history" ? Why does Gareth think it's origin to be France ? Didier and myself are seperated by a couple thousand years at least and both are of French blood


Sorry for the delayed response. Fairly recent history means within the last 500 years as I interpret it for DNA since the SNPs mutations are estimated to be approx. every 1k years. To add to this SRY2627 confusion, my 23andMe results label me as British and Irish at some pretty high percentages (29% British and Irish), (15% French and German), everything is less than 5%. So, what does that mean? My ancestry must be deeper in Britain than continental Europe of recent modernity. However, at some time my branch arrived to Britain by boat from somewhere in Europe. My guess is that it's most likely from Belgium seeing as how my closest 25 marker matches are in Essex near Colchester which is linked to the earliest known Celtic kingdoms in Britain. Now, this could get interesting. Seeing as Romans were moving up the coast defeating the Veneti, etc. there is always a possibility of either recruitment of Pictones and even Santones helping the Romans. Also, we must consider the possibility that quite a few Roman legions and cohorts arrived to Britain that were originally based out of Hispania Tarraconesis. Remember SRY2627 numbers are still more prevalent in Catalonia than in France and Tarrgona (Tarraco) is in modern day Catalonia. I am also aware that cohorts from Gaul arrived to Hadrian's Wall and so they are not being excluded, but the earliest arrivals to Britain are the legions. Hispania IX as one of the most famous and they seem to be about everywhere in Western Europe and parts of Central Europe. My ancestry could have arrived to Britain with the Roman expansion or it could have been later with the colonization of Gascony (if my ancestry can be traced back to continental Europe). Another option I have considered is looking at the Hundred Years War and how Venice Italy plays a key role in providing yew bow staves that are of greater quality than the famous Spanish Yew. Seeing as how my surname has some connection to archery, forestry, etc. and seeing how I have a real low GD person in Vicenza in or near the Sud Tyrol in Venice, I see possibilities. If I reach back, it appears that ancestry in Vicenza moved in from Austria or Southern Germany as possible woodworkers (I'm guessing). When I research Val d'Aran I noticed a group of people called Cagots, a derogatory term used towards Germans or those believed to be of Visigothic descent. They were treated poorly wherever they went and considered lepers, etc. I find it fascinating that the Vicenza region of Italy consider themselves Cimbri (Germano-Celtic or Celto-Germanic however you want to slice that puppy).  Not really well liked by the Romans or perhaps even by the Italians (I don't know). Again we end up back in Germania with my surname, my closest GDs (excepting Julliet). I don't think his ancestry is deep in the region of the Vienne or nearby departments. His GD is closer to Alberti than mine. I think it's obvious that our subclade arrived to Britain no earlier than the Late Bronze Age, so the only other option is to consider an Atlantic Maritime Trade-Exchange Network which I believe is highly influenced by the Bell Beakers at the mouth of the Rhine in Belgium and also near Lisbon, Portugal around the Tagus R. etc. Seeing as how I have very little composition of southern European DNA in me and most everything points more towards the north, it becomes more evident that my line must have originated somewhere outside of France or Gaul. Belgica? I just don't know. What I am not "feeling" is the French connection as much as I have tried. Perhaps the best guess if there was no choice outside of France would be Gascony, as they are essentially the same as Aranese in language and in culture to some degree. Somehow I don't think my family lineage within SRY2627 ever originated in France but rather Belgium or in Germany. Consider yourself very fortunate that you have found your deep ancestry to the continent with some decent records. I wouldn't get too wrapped up in them as they relate to modern distribution of the subclade and the current frequencies (as always). I have my pet theories, ideas, and so forth but I know that I can't be that committed to them if I want to find the right answers. I'm hoping we can get to the bottom of this perhaps some day when ancient DNA is found and we can at least get more focused in a region of possible origin at a more certain date instead of relying on statistics to flesh this whole issue out.

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Arch Y.
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« Reply #412 on: April 11, 2013, 03:44:13 AM »


What I am asking is: Where are the SRY2627 frequencies in SW France (in particular, La Rochelle) versus the numbers found in the Midi-Pyrenees and specifically in areas such as Val d'Aran and the rest of Iberia? Factor in the numerous studies and I think it becomes apparent if we go by the numbers only, that Iberia would be the point of origin for SRY2627. If we go by diversity, then we should be looking towards Poland.

Either choice is most likely not correct--we need ancient DNA for a better answer than what we get from frequency and diversity distribution. We simply don't have the kind of numbers of SRY2627 to make a good guess because our SNP is too widespread.

Arch

A 2012 study by Martinez-Cruz found the following percentages of SRY2627:  7% in the three French departments of the Pays de Basque, 16% in Bearn (France), 14% in Bigorre (France), 7% in Chalosse (France), 6% in the Basque regions of Spain, 15% in La Rioja (Spain), and 19% in northern Aragon (Spain).  A separate study found 8% in the city of Toulouse (Midi-Pyrenees).

Another way to break down this data is by department. 
Those of France= Pyrenees-Atlantiques, 9%; Hautes-Pyrenees, 14%; Landes, 7%; Haute-Garonne, 8%.
Those of Spain= Cantabria, 1%; La Rioja, 15%; Basque country, 6%; Aragon, 19%.

Clearly the highest percentages are found on both sides of the Pyrenees, clustering between the Basque country and Toulouse.

However, that does not tell us if that is where the point of origin is or if that is where SRY2627 prospered. An archaeological find of human remains of ancient DNA would tell us it existed in a specific location within a certain time frame but it still wouldn't tell us if that location was the point of origin.

Yes, agreed. Ancient DNA will not 100% confirm place of origin. However, it gets us closer to where the subclade possibly originated from. Though we will still run into issues of fast migration whether by horse, boat, or very dedicated hoofing. What it would help out with is providing a date/timestamp of where SRY2627 was in any particular region of Europe at any given particular point in time. So, if we find some SRY2627+ in Ireland and his artifacts are dated to around 1300 BCE, then we will know the subclade made quite a rapid expansion from its point of origin on the mainland (if indeed that is the point of origin-you just never know). I would get a good chuckle if SRY2627's point of origin is in Britain or Ireland.

Arch


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« Reply #413 on: April 11, 2013, 04:04:27 AM »

I had this perplexing thought cross my mind several times seeing as how 23andMe rates me as having a significant Northern European ancestry in my genetic data. In honesty, I don't think Val d'Aran should be considered as a part of Iberia geologically and geographically--leaving the linguistic and political issues out. I'm not claiming any ancestry to Val d'Aran specifically but I thought it's intriguing to say the least. The region has long been a part of Aquitania long before the Romans messed everything up  with borders. However, I think the Romans kept Val d'Aran as a part of Aquitania or the Novembpopulana (the nine tribes or peoples). It was really within the Medieval period that its borders become more associated with the Iberian polities prior to this mainly it was more part of the Comminges and earlier Convenae which is primarily the Couserans region from what I gather. This is technically Septimania in earlier times. It almost seems to be a perfect match of location for SRY2627 based on the long list of data of SRY2627 high frequencies in Catalonia and the highest frequencies of SRY2627 being in the Midi-Pyrenees. I wished the studies were more focused on the lower departments near Luchon instead of the larger regions. Whatever the case, southern France holds the highest frequencies and in particular it seems like departments near the Pyrenees in Aquitaine have a good showing. Back to the point, should Val d'Aran be considered Northern Europe?

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« Reply #414 on: April 11, 2013, 09:34:53 AM »

I had this perplexing thought cross my mind several times seeing as how 23andMe rates me as having a significant Northern European ancestry in my genetic data. In honesty, I don't think Val d'Aran should be considered as a part of Iberia geologically and geographically--leaving the linguistic and political issues out. I'm not claiming any ancestry to Val d'Aran specifically but I thought it's intriguing to say the least. The region has long been a part of Aquitania long before the Romans messed everything up  with borders. However, I think the Romans kept Val d'Aran as a part of Aquitania or the Novembpopulana (the nine tribes or peoples). It was really within the Medieval period that its borders become more associated with the Iberian polities prior to this mainly it was more part of the Comminges and earlier Convenae which is primarily the Couserans region from what I gather. This is technically Septimania in earlier times. It almost seems to be a perfect match of location for SRY2627 based on the long list of data of SRY2627 high frequencies in Catalonia and the highest frequencies of SRY2627 being in the Midi-Pyrenees. I wished the studies were more focused on the lower departments near Luchon instead of the larger regions. Whatever the case, southern France holds the highest frequencies and in particular it seems like departments near the Pyrenees in Aquitaine have a good showing. Back to the point, should Val d'Aran be considered Northern Europe?

Arch

Arch, I think we are going to see that the Pyrenees is to Z196 clades what Northern Italy is to U152 and Ireland is to L21.  If Ireland is a pooling place for L21 and Northern Italy a pooling place for U152, then if you apply the common denominator theory to Z196, it would mean that most likely the Pyrenees is the pooling place for Z196, not necessarily origin.  As many of the Irish lineages are coming in as DF27+ but Z196- you would have to assume that it is possible then that the opposite applies.  Iberia might have the largest amount of Z196-, while the Pyrenees and west, north west might be where Z196 starts, which could mean a origin for Z196 and clades in the Pyrenees.
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« Reply #415 on: April 11, 2013, 09:52:20 AM »

I am still debating about frequency and variation as possible points of origin for any mutation for that matter, I mean the point of origin could be on a distant third location that became extinct and only survived away from it's epicenter.
Back to frequency or variation I still think that frequency has more weight just by logic. Variation results I think is more a sign of "when" it got there rather than being born there...and low variation where frequency is high is just a simple drift of major lineages, when enough people got tested perhaps high variation would show up.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 09:54:26 AM by Isidro » Logged

Haplogroups
Y-DNA    R1b1a2a1a1b5    Shorthand    R-L176.2 mtDNA    HV  23andMe: HV0

M269+ P312+ Z196+ L176.2+ Z198+

Z262- U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- M65- M37- M222- M153- L21- L165-

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« Reply #416 on: April 11, 2013, 10:41:42 AM »

How many years ago can you estimate the SRY2627 line in Denmark separated from Say my Group A0  ?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 05:51:35 PM by Brousse » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
samIsaack
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« Reply #417 on: April 11, 2013, 06:42:21 PM »

How many years ago can you estimate the SRY2627 line in Denmark separated from Say my Group A0  ?

The Danish SRY2627 is DYS490=12, if I'm not mistaken. So it was in existence before your line came about.
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« Reply #418 on: April 11, 2013, 08:59:37 PM »

How many years ago can you estimate the SRY2627 line in Denmark separated from Say my Group A0  ?

The Danish SRY2627 is DYS490=12, if I'm not mistaken. So it was in existence before your line came about.

Which goes back to the Pyrenees being a pooling point for a number of possible Scandanavian/Germanic/ Belgic incursions into the region.  Why is Z196 such an enigma?
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William B. Webb
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« Reply #419 on: April 12, 2013, 01:51:52 AM »

How many years ago can you estimate the SRY2627 line in Denmark separated from Say my Group A0  ?

The Danish SRY2627 is DYS490=12, if I'm not mistaken. So it was in existence before your line came about.

Which goes back to the Pyrenees being a pooling point for a number of possible Scandanavian/Germanic/ Belgic incursions into the region.  Why is Z196 such an enigma?

Danish SRY2627 possibly represents an origin within the late bronze age culture. We have SRY2627 in Sweden at DYS 490=12. Yes this is the older variant of SRY2627 but not by many years. Now I would love to have this answered: We have more SRY2627 DYS 490=12 in Iberia than we do DYS 490=10 from FTDNA results. Seeing as how DYS490=12 is older where do we pinpoint possible origins? We do we see a larger number of DYS490=10 in Aquitaine and Vienne Department in France so one could only guess that nearby the Pyrenees the DYS490 split occurred. Of course, now we have Z262 that we must contend with. Hopefully we better results or a better showing for this SNP as it could only help give a clearer picture of where SRY2627 possibly originated.

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« Reply #420 on: April 12, 2013, 02:00:55 AM »

I am still debating about frequency and variation as possible points of origin for any mutation for that matter, I mean the point of origin could be on a distant third location that became extinct and only survived away from it's epicenter.
Back to frequency or variation I still think that frequency has more weight just by logic. Variation results I think is more a sign of "when" it got there rather than being born there...and low variation where frequency is high is just a simple drift of major lineages, when enough people got tested perhaps high variation would show up.


I see your point. There are just so many variables that could explain why a higher diversity SNP shows up far outside the range of high frequency(ies). So far, as of today. and that I am aware of, SRY2627 only sort of pools up in the Pyrenees region. Pretty much nowhere else at least for now or for what the studies have shown. Keep in mind when other studies are done, SRY2627 is usually included in the tests even though it's not the target SNP being researched. There is always a possibility of far flung SRY2627+ with high diversity that may have reached their current destinations within recent history. However, if we start seeing even a bunch of scattered high variant SRY2627 outside the Central Pyrenees, then maybe that's a hint. I have a difficult time understanding how a higher population that everybody has a low diversity and nobody within that high frequency group could match up close to the  distant and higher variant group--that doesn't make sense to have jumps like that.

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Brousse
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« Reply #421 on: April 12, 2013, 11:26:08 AM »

If you do a web search onSRY2627 you will find a page where one person was trying to link SRY 2627 to a Jewish Migration. On The Jewish page he posted he did not get much support for the idea
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #422 on: April 12, 2013, 07:34:27 PM »

I am still debating about frequency and variation as possible points of origin for any mutation for that matter, I mean the point of origin could be on a distant third location that became extinct and only survived away from it's epicenter.
Back to frequency or variation I still think that frequency has more weight just by logic. Variation results I think is more a sign of "when" it got there rather than being born there...and low variation where frequency is high is just a simple drift of major lineages, when enough people got tested perhaps high variation would show up.


I see your point. There are just so many variables that could explain why a higher diversity SNP shows up far outside the range of high frequency(ies). So far, as of today. and that I am aware of, SRY2627 only sort of pools up in the Pyrenees region. Pretty much nowhere else at least for now or for what the studies have shown. Keep in mind when other studies are done, SRY2627 is usually included in the tests even though it's not the target SNP being researched. There is always a possibility of far flung SRY2627+ with high diversity that may have reached their current destinations within recent history. However, if we start seeing even a bunch of scattered high variant SRY2627 outside the Central Pyrenees, then maybe that's a hint. I have a difficult time understanding how a higher population that everybody has a low diversity and nobody within that high frequency group could match up close to the  distant and higher variant group--that doesn't make sense to have jumps like that.

Arch

Arch,
I have always enjoyed your leveled approach and respect what you have to say about our "little branch " although sometimes I have to admit I feel like you know more about my own birth place than I do...and I mean it. LOL.
Back to origins and spread of out twig, we do not stick out form P312 but we are always there, macro and micro sort of speak for P312 but I do think that frequency can really skew things up as far as low variance taken as a whole, reason being it is just a mathematical definition averaging, where frequency is high is just not right.Period.We are just using the prolific branches as the guideline.
Taken as a whole. I do think that the only weight that variance has  over frequency is that is saying...hey frequency is not proof of origins, which is rightly so but then we get pop ups of possible origins based on variance all over which I think is misleading.

anyhow  and trying to make this short... my lead is now Italy for our ancestry origins... but then the Bell Beakers are lurking in the background lol

Cheers



« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 07:36:59 PM by Isidro » Logged

Haplogroups
Y-DNA    R1b1a2a1a1b5    Shorthand    R-L176.2 mtDNA    HV  23andMe: HV0

M269+ P312+ Z196+ L176.2+ Z198+

Z262- U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- M65- M37- M222- M153- L21- L165-

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« Reply #423 on: April 13, 2013, 02:05:08 AM »

I am still debating about frequency and variation as possible points of origin for any mutation for that matter, I mean the point of origin could be on a distant third location that became extinct and only survived away from it's epicenter.
Back to frequency or variation I still think that frequency has more weight just by logic. Variation results I think is more a sign of "when" it got there rather than being born there...and low variation where frequency is high is just a simple drift of major lineages, when enough people got tested perhaps high variation would show up.


I see your point. There are just so many variables that could explain why a higher diversity SNP shows up far outside the range of high frequency(ies). So far, as of today. and that I am aware of, SRY2627 only sort of pools up in the Pyrenees region. Pretty much nowhere else at least for now or for what the studies have shown. Keep in mind when other studies are done, SRY2627 is usually included in the tests even though it's not the target SNP being researched. There is always a possibility of far flung SRY2627+ with high diversity that may have reached their current destinations within recent history. However, if we start seeing even a bunch of scattered high variant SRY2627 outside the Central Pyrenees, then maybe that's a hint. I have a difficult time understanding how a higher population that everybody has a low diversity and nobody within that high frequency group could match up close to the  distant and higher variant group--that doesn't make sense to have jumps like that.

Arch

Arch,
I have always enjoyed your leveled approach and respect what you have to say about our "little branch " although sometimes I have to admit I feel like you know more about my own birth place than I do...and I mean it. LOL.
Back to origins and spread of out twig, we do not stick out form P312 but we are always there, macro and micro sort of speak for P312 but I do think that frequency can really skew things up as far as low variance taken as a whole, reason being it is just a mathematical definition averaging, where frequency is high is just not right.Period.We are just using the prolific branches as the guideline.
Taken as a whole. I do think that the only weight that variance has  over frequency is that is saying...hey frequency is not proof of origins, which is rightly so but then we get pop ups of possible origins based on variance all over which I think is misleading.

anyhow  and trying to make this short... my lead is now Italy for our ancestry origins... but then the Bell Beakers are lurking in the background lol

Cheers



With any certainty we can say SRY2627 arose during the Late Bronze Age, not too far after the Bell Beakers, nonetheless outside that time frame. 1300 BCE is the best est. and has been well supported. I feel confident Hurles had his stuff together way back when this was relatively a new field. His estimates have repeatedly been supported by other research except for the study that placed SRY2627 in the Neolithic. Though they did get it right in regards to the high frequency in Val d'Aran.

I keep looking towards Northern Italy and Southern Germany with Switzerland and Austria as well Liechtenstein. Those regions seem the most likely point of origin but I'm not ready to get hung up on it just yet.

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« Reply #424 on: April 13, 2013, 02:09:52 AM »

If you do a web search onSRY2627 you will find a page where one person was trying to link SRY 2627 to a Jewish Migration. On The Jewish page he posted he did not get much support for the idea

Perhaps his branch but Jewish ancestry is unique in many ways. Most SRY2627 would not follow under that category. What I do think is a real possibility is the connection with the spread of Roman influence in Spain, Gaul and eventually Britain. I can't wrap my head around the Swedish, Polish and Ukrainian finds of SRY2627. They seem out of place but nonetheless pretty interesting.

Arch
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