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Brousse
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« Reply #375 on: March 31, 2013, 10:50:54 AM »

I'm tired of whipping a dead horse but here is my over view of SRY2627. I believe it was born in Gaul like Gareth said about 3,000 years ago on the shores of the Bay of Biscay. It was born into pre Celtic tribes of the people known as the Pictones and Santones . These people traded along the English  coast and may have even established settlements there. I also believe these are the people first described as Kelts by the Greeks. I believe their prime location caused them great struggles to hold power there and with the Roman conquest of Gaul that brought them to the Bay of Biscay was the beginning of the end for these people. They built a fleet of ships for the Romans and no doubt served in Roman legions. When the Roman empire crumbled like in England these people had been Romanized . And left to their own but could not hold the Bay and many where killed off by invading armies many may have fled into Iberia many may have taken to the sea in search of new lands Just my theory 
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #376 on: April 02, 2013, 11:09:53 AM »

Santones
The Santones were a Gaulish peoples who occupied the area of Saintonage, western Gaul and whose primary settlement was at Mediolanum (modern-day Saintes), north of the river Gironde. These were the peoples whose territory was threatened by the migration of the Helvetii (58 BCE). In thanks for Julius Caesar's intervention against the Helvetii the Santones (a maritime peoples) provided Caesar with a fleet to aid in his Gallic campaigns of 56 BCE (just as their neighbours the Pictavii did). Little else is known about the Santones, which suggests that they were faithful allies of Rome and therefore not worthy of further mention.

The tribe's name may be related to the reconstructed proto-Celtic element: *sani- (different, which is related to the Old Irish sain). This suggests that either they were one of the first Celtic peoples to arrive in the region and thus were 'different' from the local populace, or they were part of the local population who survived Celtic colonization, were labelled with a Celtic name and eventually became Celticized.
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #377 on: April 04, 2013, 05:51:54 PM »

I wished it was that simple. However, unfortunately it's not. There are so many variables involved with population movements, let alone the genetic issues which are fraught with more uncertainty perhaps more than ever. Ancient DNA is really our only hope and that leaves much to be desired. All we can go with is the most recent DNA analysis and hope for many to test. It still won't give us a homeland but it will give us an idea where most recent in history the highest frequencies of where subclades assimilated. Irritating as it may be sometimes, I still have some sliver of hope that some kind of breakthrough will happen to give us more certainty instead of making the best guesses possible. We have beaten this subject to a bloody pulp (I agree).

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« Reply #378 on: April 05, 2013, 09:45:17 AM »

I think that SRY2627 was distributed throughout Western Europe too early to associate them with one particular culture or group.  Clearly SRY2627 in western France was represented in the Gallic tribes such as Pictones and Santones, but also probably in Aquitanian tribes.  In Spain, perhaps they were represented in Iberian tribes as well.  This is at least 3 cultural/language groups.
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« Reply #379 on: April 05, 2013, 10:23:06 AM »

I think that SRY2627 was distributed throughout Western Europe too early to associate them with one particular culture or group.  Clearly SRY2627 in western France was represented in the Gallic tribes such as Pictones and Santones, but also probably in Aquitanian tribes.  In Spain, perhaps they were represented in Iberian tribes as well.  This is at least 3 cultural/language groups.

Which means that there is a possiblilty that though, early Greek historians labled Iberians as Iberians, they really were roughly the same genetically as there Celtic cousins who came back into those areas from the Hallstatt on.
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William B. Webb
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« Reply #380 on: April 05, 2013, 06:11:45 PM »


Which means that there is a possibility that, though early Greek historians labeled Iberians as Iberians, they really were roughly the same genetically as their Celtic cousins who came back into those areas from the Hallstatt on.

Came back?  How are we supposed to know they had been there before?  Cunliffe/Koch/Oppenheimer?  Percentage of DF27* in the modern population of Puerto Rico?  Not that these are useless sources of information, but I still think too much of this picture is riding on prior assumptions... and that some of the assumptions need to be be questioned.
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« Reply #381 on: April 05, 2013, 08:50:45 PM »


Which means that there is a possibility that, though early Greek historians labeled Iberians as Iberians, they really were roughly the same genetically as their Celtic cousins who came back into those areas from the Hallstatt on.

Came back?  How are we supposed to know they had been there before?  Cunliffe/Koch/Oppenheimer?  Percentage of DF27* in the modern population of Puerto Rico?  Not that these are useless sources of information, but I still think too much of this picture is riding on prior assumptions... and that some of the assumptions need to be be questioned.

I didn't mean come back as in they left then came back, I meant that if the Celtic movements into Spain as a result of the Hallstatt, these groups would have mixed with Iberians who really were not much different, possibly, then themselves.  Roman and Greek historians made it seem as if the Iberians were vastly different from the celts, but they never back up that claim with examples.  There are also probably just about as much L21 in Spain as DF27.  So was L21 already there by the Halstatt?  And how can one explain the basque being M153, while there is a growing number of Z220 in the Netherlands and L165 being found in Macdonalds and Macleods who are claiming to have Gaelic-Norse ancestry.  We are missing something I think.  Razyn, I'm with you on the not so fast is DF27 Iberian.
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William B. Webb
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« Reply #382 on: April 06, 2013, 03:05:30 AM »

I think that SRY2627 was distributed throughout Western Europe too early to associate them with one particular culture or group.  Clearly SRY2627 in western France was represented in the Gallic tribes such as Pictones and Santones, but also probably in Aquitanian tribes.  In Spain, perhaps they were represented in Iberian tribes as well.  This is at least 3 cultural/language groups.

SRY2627 definitely meets the criteria of pre-Celtic and possibly pre-Iberian. Whatever they (early SRY2627) were, is lost to time and history. All we have early knowledge of is what the Greeks, Romans, Phoenicians and Carthaginians encountered. This seems to be too late. So ascribing SRY2627 to any Celtic tribe, or whatever, is seemingly pointless. Not until we get that ancient DNA to help keep pinpointing to geographical affinities. We can work out the cultures from there--maybe.

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« Reply #383 on: April 06, 2013, 03:13:22 AM »

I'm tired of whipping a dead horse but here is my over view of SRY2627. I believe it was born in Gaul like Gareth said about 3,000 years ago on the shores of the Bay of Biscay. It was born into pre Celtic tribes of the people known as the Pictones and Santones . These people traded along the English  coast and may have even established settlements there. I also believe these are the people first described as Kelts by the Greeks. I believe their prime location caused them great struggles to hold power there and with the Roman conquest of Gaul that brought them to the Bay of Biscay was the beginning of the end for these people. They built a fleet of ships for the Romans and no doubt served in Roman legions. When the Roman empire crumbled like in England these people had been Romanized . And left to their own but could not hold the Bay and many where killed off by invading armies many may have fled into Iberia many may have taken to the sea in search of new lands Just my theory 

I have not heard from Gareth or Didier in several years. I presume by your post that Gareth believes the origin of SRY2627 is somewhere in Gascony. Which pretty much is the shores of the Bay of Biscay in Gaul. I know some here would disagree with the contention that SRY2627 originated there based on STR diversity and that claim may be somewhat valid. Do we shift towards the center towards Toulouse or perhaps just more to the east to places like Lyons, or even more east towards northern Italy itself?

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Brousse
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« Reply #384 on: April 06, 2013, 11:33:22 AM »

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200806927317484&set=a.1538381341450.72568.1292396280&type=1&theater


Here is a Picture of my Grandfather froww2 he looks as my 6th Great uncle was described by the Bishop Asbury in 1790 The look has faded with my generation
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #385 on: April 06, 2013, 02:55:18 PM »

He looks like the old Brousse line as well as his brothers and dad. His mother had a welsh maiden name of Gist the Gist had been in KY a long time
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #386 on: April 06, 2013, 03:08:06 PM »

Not to distract too much from the main point of the thread. But I have just recieved confirmation that my "cousin" with the roots to Devonshire (his g,g,grandfather was from there.), is infact SRY2627 positive!

I got really lucky on this, so I don't want anyone new out there who may be reading this to think that it is that easy. It certainly is not. We've been researching and chasing leads for years prior to this fortunate discovery.

Don't give up hope either! Stay hungry and keep looking even when you're completely sick of doing it.
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« Reply #387 on: April 06, 2013, 03:34:47 PM »

Not to distract too much from the main point of the thread. But I have just recieved confirmation that my "cousin" with the roots to Devonshire (his g,g,grandfather was from there.), is infact SRY2627 positive!

I got really lucky on this, so I don't want anyone new out there who may be reading this to think that it is that easy. It certainly is not. We've been researching and chasing leads for years prior to this fortunate discovery.

Don't give up hope either! Stay hungry and keep looking even when you're completely sick of doing it.

Sam, there are quite a few Z220 guys in the P312 group who have ancestry to Devon.
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William B. Webb
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« Reply #388 on: April 06, 2013, 03:52:57 PM »

Not to distract too much from the main point of the thread. But I have just recieved confirmation that my "cousin" with the roots to Devonshire (his g,g,grandfather was from there.), is infact SRY2627 positive!

I got really lucky on this, so I don't want anyone new out there who may be reading this to think that it is that easy. It certainly is not. We've been researching and chasing leads for years prior to this fortunate discovery.

Don't give up hope either! Stay hungry and keep looking even when you're completely sick of doing it.

Cool! For the longest time I have considered the Devon region as the area where SRY2627 clusters the most within Britain. I had to redact those statements taking other perspectives into consideration such as the presence of SRY2627 in Essex, also in Scotland. For the obvious we would believe that SRY2627 would likely have arrived to Britain via the English Channel from around Belgium or Northern France. However, I've never been opposed to the old Atlantic Maritime Trade-Exchange routes which most likely connected with the mouth of the Rhine R. Whatever the case, I think we could say with a great deal of certainty that SRY2627 most likely arrived to Britain by boat. Finding the point of embarkation and disembarkation would be pretty interesting. It also wouldn't be a linear event because SRY2627+ people would have arrived in sporadically (whether large or small groups). What would be remarkable is, if this did happen, is finding that one Y chromosome most SRY2627+ in Britain descend from--of course we have later arrivals to factor in.

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samIsaack
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« Reply #389 on: April 06, 2013, 04:05:54 PM »

Not to distract too much from the main point of the thread. But I have just recieved confirmation that my "cousin" with the roots to Devonshire (his g,g,grandfather was from there.), is infact SRY2627 positive!

I got really lucky on this, so I don't want anyone new out there who may be reading this to think that it is that easy. It certainly is not. We've been researching and chasing leads for years prior to this fortunate discovery.

Don't give up hope either! Stay hungry and keep looking even when you're completely sick of doing it.

Sam, there are quite a few Z220 guys in the P312 group who have ancestry to Devon.

I seen that. Kinda makes it clear that our subclades did travel together and probably have a very similar spread.
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« Reply #390 on: April 06, 2013, 04:10:53 PM »

Not to distract too much from the main point of the thread. But I have just recieved confirmation that my "cousin" with the roots to Devonshire (his g,g,grandfather was from there.), is infact SRY2627 positive!

I got really lucky on this, so I don't want anyone new out there who may be reading this to think that it is that easy. It certainly is not. We've been researching and chasing leads for years prior to this fortunate discovery.

Don't give up hope either! Stay hungry and keep looking even when you're completely sick of doing it.

Cool! For the longest time I have considered the Devon region as the area where SRY2627 clusters the most within Britain. I had to redact those statements taking other perspectives into consideration such as the presence of SRY2627 in Essex, also in Scotland. For the obvious we would believe that SRY2627 would likely have arrived to Britain via the English Channel from around Belgium or Northern France. However, I've never been opposed to the old Atlantic Maritime Trade-Exchange routes which most likely connected with the mouth of the Rhine R. Whatever the case, I think we could say with a great deal of certainty that SRY2627 most likely arrived to Britain by boat. Finding the point of embarkation and disembarkation would be pretty interesting. It also wouldn't be a linear event because SRY2627+ people would have arrived in sporadically (whether large or small groups). What would be remarkable is, if this did happen, is finding that one Y chromosome most SRY2627+ in Britain descend from--of course we have later arrivals to factor in.

Arch

Agreed. Infact, I have been speaking with a SRY2627, DYS490=12, DYS392=14 fellow for the last week or so who is from Brittany. I think he may represent an ancient link to my y-line. We are at a Gd of 15 at 67 markers, so it isn't anything recent, but it is pretty tempting to link him to my family line. From what he has told me, his y-line has been in the non-Breton speaking region since the 14th century, if I'm not mistaken. Giving me more reason to think if our lines are infact of the same source, that they split well before the Briton migrations to Northern France.
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Brousse
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« Reply #391 on: April 07, 2013, 06:31:11 AM »

Well Arch I will stick with SW France as the origin The diversity is greater in France all roads point to France why is that so hard to accept? I don't think Gareth would send me that unless he was pretty sure as well and like he said until it changes that is what he thinks . I don't really care to which tribe just the fact SRY2627 seems to have a birth place there is enough for me. Knowing my family may have been in place from the birth of sry2627 to our exile
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #392 on: April 07, 2013, 07:35:07 AM »

Well Arch I will stick with SW France as the origin The diversity is greater in France all roads point to France why is that so hard to accept? I don't think Gareth would send me that unless he was pretty sure as well and like he said until it changes that is what he thinks . I don't really care to which tribe just the fact SRY2627 seems to have a birth place there is enough for me. Knowing my family may have been in place from the birth of sry2627 to our exile

It may well have been in Southwest France.. Hell, it could have been in Switzerland for all we know.

The trouble with all of these theories that you're coming up with is that they are based on modern evidence of our subclade. We simply do not have the ancient dna to make any sort of claims as to whether or not we were Celtic, Iberian or whatever.

Could it be associated with these cultures and peoples? Yes, but to say it originated with them specifically is going to be impossible to prove without adna.

No one is saying that France couldn't be the homeland for our clade, but at the same time we can't make claims based on faulty evidence either.
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« Reply #393 on: April 07, 2013, 08:04:49 AM »

Sam I'm taking the Celtic element out . If our Clade is 3000 years old what time period does this put us as far as Gaul goes? When did the first Eastern Europeans invade into western Europe? My theory is no more  unsupported  than anyone else on here. Everyone wants to think they are right as to it's origin Hell all of us could be wrong we could of came from outer space I'm going off of Gareth's email to me I have seen no other theory that is anymore solid than my own I'm just guessing like everyone else All I have to go on is a family history in the Saintong area of France and a French surname . I don't think we will ever find out the facts I have been involved in the DNA part for 12 years and just now got 2 non surname 12 marker matches both french one listed as p312 the other u106 I gave up a long time ago ever getting the whole story.
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« Reply #394 on: April 07, 2013, 08:21:34 AM »

Sam I'm taking the Celtic element out . If our Clade is 3000 years old what time period does this put us as far as Gaul goes? When did the first Easten Europeans invade into western Europe?

Exactly.  That would be 1000 B.C.  I'm Z220 which has the same age.  The Halstatt began about 800 B.C., so most "Celts" as historians called them, start then.  That's not to say if L21 was in Iberia, and L21 in Switzerland became Celts, then the L21 in Iberia could be considered proto-celts.  The age right before the Halstatt was the Urnfield and to me this is a much better fit for our clades of DF27, but I keep getting told that the Urnfield was more of a religion than anything else, however that was the time period that an enormous amount of hill forts started cropping up in Europe.  The map on Wiki shows the spread of the Urnfield and it seems interesting.  Other folk have linked DF27 with the Bell Beakers, but I think that is too old for our groups.
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« Reply #395 on: April 07, 2013, 08:28:06 AM »

Sam I'm taking the Celtic element out . If our Clade is 3000 years old what time period does this put us as far as Gaul goes? When did the first Easten Europeans invade into western Europe?

Exactly.  That would be 1000 B.C.  I'm Z220 which has the same age.  The Halstatt began about 800 B.C., so most "Celts" as historians called them, start then.  That's not to say if L21 was in Iberia, and L21 in Switzerland became Celts, then the L21 in Iberia could be considered proto-celts.  The age right before the Halstatt was the Urnfield and to me this is a much better fit for our clades of DF27, but I keep getting told that the Urnfield was more of a religion than anything else, however that was the time period that an enormous amount of hill forts started cropping up in Europe.  The map on Wiki shows the spread of the Urnfield and it seems interesting.  Other folk have linked DF27 with the Bell Beakers, but I think that is too old for our groups.

I could be wrong, but I think you see the real Celtic correlation not with any single clade but with P312 overall. L21 has good coverage for the insular Celts but gets a little shakier on the Continent. U152 is good for some of the Continental Celts, but gets really shaky in the Isles. SRY2627 is similar to U152 in that regard but also has an Isles presence.

So I'm thinking the early Celts might have been mostly undifferentiated P312 and that, later, the various clade-defining SNPs arose in their male descendants, especially in chiefs who were able to have multiple wives, concubines, etc., and pass on their SNPs to their sons. Thus SRY2627, like L21 and U152, could very well have arisen in a Celtic or at least Beaker context.
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« Reply #396 on: April 07, 2013, 08:42:04 AM »

Sam I'm taking the Celtic element out . If our Clade is 3000 years old what time period does this put us as far as Gaul goes? When did the first Easten Europeans invade into western Europe?

Exactly.  That would be 1000 B.C.  I'm Z220 which has the same age.  The Halstatt began about 800 B.C., so most "Celts" as historians called them, start then.  That's not to say if L21 was in Iberia, and L21 in Switzerland became Celts, then the L21 in Iberia could be considered proto-celts.  The age right before the Halstatt was the Urnfield and to me this is a much better fit for our clades of DF27, but I keep getting told that the Urnfield was more of a religion than anything else, however that was the time period that an enormous amount of hill forts started cropping up in Europe.  The map on Wiki shows the spread of the Urnfield and it seems interesting.  Other folk have linked DF27 with the Bell Beakers, but I think that is too old for our groups.

I could be wrong, but I think you see the real Celtic correlation not with any single clade but with P312 overall. L21 has good coverage for the insular Celts but gets a little shakier on the Continent. U152 is good for some of the Continental Celts, but gets really shaky in the Isles. SRY2627 is similar to U152 in that regard but also has an Isles presence.

So I'm thinking the early Celts might have been mostly undifferentiated P312 and that, later, the various clade-defining SNPs arose in their male descendants, especially in chiefs who were able to have multiple wives, concubines, etc., and pass on their SNPs to their sons. Thus SRY2627, like L21 and U152, could very well have arisen in a Celtic or at least Beaker context.

Agreed, I used L21 as an example.  I personally agree that L21 is insular in the isles and has probably been there for a very long time due to the concentrations there.  Also, I recently pored through the different geographical projects on FTDNA, and found several U152, L21, and SRY2627 in the Lebanon and Turkey projects.  This could support your mixed types theory of the Celts if these markers in Asia Minor were there as a result of Celtic Incursions.
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« Reply #397 on: April 07, 2013, 08:43:25 AM »

Sam I'm taking the Celtic element out . If our Clade is 3000 years old what time period does this put us as far as Gaul goes? When did the first Easten Europeans invade into western Europe?

Exactly.  That would be 1000 B.C.  I'm Z220 which has the same age.  The Halstatt began about 800 B.C., so most "Celts" as historians called them, start then.  That's not to say if L21 was in Iberia, and L21 in Switzerland became Celts, then the L21 in Iberia could be considered proto-celts.  The age right before the Halstatt was the Urnfield and to me this is a much better fit for our clades of DF27, but I keep getting told that the Urnfield was more of a religion than anything else, however that was the time period that an enormous amount of hill forts started cropping up in Europe.  The map on Wiki shows the spread of the Urnfield and it seems interesting.  Other folk have linked DF27 with the Bell Beakers, but I think that is too old for our groups.

I could be wrong, but I think you see the real Celtic correlation not with any single clade but with P312 overall. L21 has good coverage for the insular Celts but gets a little shakier on the Continent. U152 is good for some of the Continental Celts, but gets really shaky in the Isles. SRY2627 is similar to U152 in that regard but also has an Isles presence.

So I'm thinking the early Celts might have been mostly undifferentiated P312 and that, later, the various clade-defining SNPs arose in their male descendants, especially in chiefs who were able to have multiple wives, concubines, etc., and pass on their SNPs to their sons. Thus SRY2627, like L21 and U152, could very well have arisen in a Celtic or at least Beaker context.

Agreed, I used L21 as an example.  I personally agree that L21 is insular in the isles and has probably been there for a very long time due to the concentrations there.  Also, I recently pored through the different geographical projects on FTDNA, and found several U152, L21, and SRY2627 in the Lebanon and Turkey projects.  This could support your mixed types theory of the Celts if these markers in Asia Minor were there as a result of Celtic Incursions.

I'm getting so used to Facebook I started looking for the "Like" thingy when I read your post. :-)
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« Reply #398 on: April 07, 2013, 08:52:59 AM »

All I was doing was looking at both the Pictones and Santones are a maritime People and no doubt traded and may have established settlements else where
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« Reply #399 on: April 07, 2013, 08:57:46 AM »

Sam I'm taking the Celtic element out . If our Clade is 3000 years old what time period does this put us as far as Gaul goes? When did the first Easten Europeans invade into western Europe?

Exactly.  That would be 1000 B.C.  I'm Z220 which has the same age.  The Halstatt began about 800 B.C., so most "Celts" as historians called them, start then.  That's not to say if L21 was in Iberia, and L21 in Switzerland became Celts, then the L21 in Iberia could be considered proto-celts.  The age right before the Halstatt was the Urnfield and to me this is a much better fit for our clades of DF27, but I keep getting told that the Urnfield was more of a religion than anything else, however that was the time period that an enormous amount of hill forts started cropping up in Europe.  The map on Wiki shows the spread of the Urnfield and it seems interesting.  Other folk have linked DF27 with the Bell Beakers, but I think that is too old for our groups.

I could be wrong, but I think you see the real Celtic correlation not with any single clade but with P312 overall. L21 has good coverage for the insular Celts but gets a little shakier on the Continent. U152 is good for some of the Continental Celts, but gets really shaky in the Isles. SRY2627 is similar to U152 in that regard but also has an Isles presence.

So I'm thinking the early Celts might have been mostly undifferentiated P312 and that, later, the various clade-defining SNPs arose in their male descendants, especially in chiefs who were able to have multiple wives, concubines, etc., and pass on their SNPs to their sons. Thus SRY2627, like L21 and U152, could very well have arisen in a Celtic or at least Beaker context.

Agreed, I used L21 as an example.  I personally agree that L21 is insular in the isles and has probably been there for a very long time due to the concentrations there.  Also, I recently pored through the different geographical projects on FTDNA, and found several U152, L21, and SRY2627 in the Lebanon and Turkey projects.  This could support your mixed types theory of the Celts if these markers in Asia Minor were there as a result of Celtic Incursions.

How much of that could have been left during the Holy Crusades?
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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