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Arch Y.
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« Reply #325 on: January 28, 2013, 08:42:00 AM »

As a compromise there's always Celtiberian ;)

We have another three DF27+ in the Ireland project, two of our members are DF27+/Z196-

I should point out of course that the Ó Néill's of Ulster (O'Neill surname) are looking like their mainline is potentially DF27+ (Z196-) this is what is known as "O'Neill Varient" eg. the fact that the mainline of O'Neill surname is not M222+ (pointing to them not been members of Uí Néill but a potentiall NPE) -- Uí Néill = dynastical title, completely different meaning form Ó Néill (Surname eg. O'Neill in english)

-Paul
(DF41+)


At first I was thinking the same thing that you posted about Celtiberians. LOL! I decided to post against it because I wanted a pure Iberian race rather than it being mixed with some creepy people who believe in things like Halloween :-d (just kidding). The mainline of "O'Niell" variants showing up as DF27+(Z196-) in Ulster is quite unique. Maybe they are the Lucky Charms we have been after to finally put this issue to rest about whether or not certain clades under P312 are Celtic are not. Let me refer to this informative book called The Origins of The British People. Hmmmm, nope showing origins somewhere near the Basque Country Iberian Pyrenees.
Uggh! These Iberians are all over the place! Southern Wales, you know, the Silures! Of course, in Old Albania in the Caucasus and I see that hideous term "Iberians" again. Oh wait! I see a Hiberia! LOL! You cannot escape it. Everybody DF27 downstream is Iberian I suppose in one way or another, just like everybody has an inner hippie--it's all good man.

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Dubhthach
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« Reply #326 on: January 28, 2013, 11:25:47 AM »

Sure Halloween is nothing but New Year's eve, ye know even the dead are allowed out of the underworld to get a breath of fresh air at least once a year!

DF27 is old, just like it's brother U152 and L21 (and I'm not forgetting the other P312 subclades) assigning modern concept of "nation state" on a SNP that's circa 4000 years old is bound to fail.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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« Reply #327 on: January 28, 2013, 12:27:33 PM »

Sure Halloween is nothing but New Year's eve, ye know even the dead are allowed out of the underworld to get a breath of fresh air at least once a year!

DF27 is old, just like it's brother U152 and L21 (and I'm not forgetting the other P312 subclades) assigning modern concept of "nation state" on a SNP that's circa 4000 years old is bound to fail.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I couldn't agree with you more.
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William B. Webb
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« Reply #328 on: January 28, 2013, 04:33:13 PM »

Sure Halloween is nothing but New Year's eve, ye know even the dead are allowed out of the underworld to get a breath of fresh air at least once a year!

DF27 is old, just like it's brother U152 and L21 (and I'm not forgetting the other P312 subclades) assigning modern concept of "nation state" on a SNP that's circa 4000 years old is bound to fail.

-Paul
(DF41+)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov9qLzarIFE
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« Reply #329 on: January 28, 2013, 04:37:28 PM »

As a compromise there's always Celtiberian ;)

We have another three DF27+ in the Ireland project, two of our members are DF27+/Z196-

I should point out of course that the Ó Néill's of Ulster (O'Neill surname) are looking like their mainline is potentially DF27+ (Z196-) this is what is known as "O'Neill Varient" eg. the fact that the mainline of O'Neill surname is not M222+ (pointing to them not been members of Uí Néill but a potentiall NPE) -- Uí Néill = dynastical title, completely different meaning form Ó Néill (Surname eg. O'Neill in english)

-Paul
(DF41+)

Very interesting! Thank you for informing us of this. Although its not always true, alot of P312's descendants do seem to have a Celtic vibe about them. And I do agree with Celtiberian for certain subclades of DF27.
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« Reply #330 on: January 28, 2013, 05:07:27 PM »

Sure Halloween is nothing but New Year's eve, ye know even the dead are allowed out of the underworld to get a breath of fresh air at least once a year!

DF27 is old, just like it's brother U152 and L21 (and I'm not forgetting the other P312 subclades) assigning modern concept of "nation state" on a SNP that's circa 4000 years old is bound to fail.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Yeah, I tried that for Catalonia (a stateless nation) but the idea didn't take off calling it SRY2627lunya. This SNP is some 3,500 yrs old and so maybe I would be better off calling it Iberian or Urnfieldan (is that a word?). I don't think Iberians had nation-states or even city-states for that matter.

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« Reply #331 on: January 28, 2013, 05:35:52 PM »

Sure Halloween is nothing but New Year's eve, ye know even the dead are allowed out of the underworld to get a breath of fresh air at least once a year!

DF27 is old, just like it's brother U152 and L21 (and I'm not forgetting the other P312 subclades) assigning modern concept of "nation state" on a SNP that's circa 4000 years old is bound to fail.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Yeah, I tried that for Catalonia (a stateless nation) but the idea didn't take off calling it SRY2627lunya. This SNP is some 3,500 yrs old and so maybe I would be better off calling it Iberian or Urnfieldan (is that a word?). I don't think Iberians had nation-states or even city-states for that matter.

Arch



I believe the term you're looking for is "Urnfieldian". I would term it Urnfield-Iberian though :)
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« Reply #332 on: January 29, 2013, 08:45:06 PM »

. . .

I have sarcasam towards L21'ers.. Not hate or dislike, Sorry if you mis-read my sarcasm.. Its quite difficult to express it via text. Though you do seem to be awfully sensitive to it.. Its nothing personal and it certainally wasn't directed towards anyone specific.

Why the sarcasm directed at L21'ers?

BTW, noticing something and being perplexed by it - since there seems no real reason for it - is not the same as being "awfully sensitive to it".

I did not misread what you wrote. It was snotty, and I got that part. The reason for the snottiness is what escapes me.
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« Reply #333 on: January 30, 2013, 12:52:07 AM »

. . .

I have sarcasam towards L21'ers.. Not hate or dislike, Sorry if you mis-read my sarcasm.. Its quite difficult to express it via text. Though you do seem to be awfully sensitive to it.. Its nothing personal and it certainally wasn't directed towards anyone specific.

Why the sarcasm directed at L21'ers?

BTW, noticing something and being perplexed by it - since there seems no real reason for it - is not the same as being "awfully sensitive to it".

I did not misread what you wrote. It was snotty, and I got that part. The reason for the snottiness is what escapes me.

The sarcasm towards L21'ers isn't directed at the group as whole. Its directed towards the ones who I have mentioned in my previous post. It gets a wee bit too personal if I go into anymore detail and by that I mean it will be obvious that I'm talking about specific people. Which I'm not going to do.

The fact that you keep bringing it back up and won't let something as meaningless as a sligthly off-handed remark go, is perplexing to me.

I already told you it wasn't personal and I honestly don't know why you find what I said so snotty or offensive. Yes there was a bit of a tone, if you will, in what I said. But its nothing worth pursuing or looking into or making into what this has become. 

Either way I'm done with this site.
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« Reply #334 on: January 30, 2013, 01:14:13 PM »

...
Iberia has long struck me as a pooling point for P312, not an expansion point. Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea that P312's descendants occured on their way to their modern frequency zones.....

I could be wrong, but I think relative ages for P312 itself, for U152, DF27 and for L21 are all close. The implication is they were each born just generations away from each other, not thousands of years different.

There is a time and space consideration. The closer related people are to each other, the more likely they were closer geographically too each other. This is obvious as their common ancestor is one man. It is a true one man could travel a long way by boat but there are limits, for instance it would be hard to get to China safely in ancient times.

Since we are talking about very large groups, U152, L21, DF27 and P312 in aggregate, they were clearly successful in growing and surviving. I think that increases the probability of good logistics and protection. This takes time and numbers of people to operate. Hence, I think it is likely that the subclades that were successful were colonizing groups/settlers rather than individual fur trappers or prospectors. All of this just means they probably moved slowly.

Somehow U152, L21 and DF27... and U106 too, have vastly different distributions, but if they involved groups of people that moved slowly by today's standards then they must have started out not too far away from each other.

Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc".
I don't really see this as exclusive. Of course I'm referring to the tribes known as Celtiberian.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 01:16:55 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #335 on: January 30, 2013, 10:35:31 PM »

. . .

I have sarcasam towards L21'ers.. Not hate or dislike, Sorry if you mis-read my sarcasm.. Its quite difficult to express it via text. Though you do seem to be awfully sensitive to it.. Its nothing personal and it certainally wasn't directed towards anyone specific.

Why the sarcasm directed at L21'ers?

BTW, noticing something and being perplexed by it - since there seems no real reason for it - is not the same as being "awfully sensitive to it".

I did not misread what you wrote. It was snotty, and I got that part. The reason for the snottiness is what escapes me.

The sarcasm towards L21'ers isn't directed at the group as whole. Its directed towards the ones who I have mentioned in my previous post. It gets a wee bit too personal if I go into anymore detail and by that I mean it will be obvious that I'm talking about specific people. Which I'm not going to do.

The fact that you keep bringing it back up and won't let something as meaningless as a sligthly off-handed remark go, is perplexing to me.

I already told you it wasn't personal and I honestly don't know why you find what I said so snotty or offensive. Yes there was a bit of a tone, if you will, in what I said. But its nothing worth pursuing or looking into or making into what this has become. 

Either way I'm done with this site.


Samuel Isaackson, it would be a shame to see you exit the forum.  You show passion, are you sure you're not Iberian?  All seriousness aside, in the Schlegel DNA project, one of the lineages is sry2627.  It's pretty interesting considering its a German place name.
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« Reply #336 on: January 31, 2013, 04:07:34 AM »

. . .

I have sarcasam towards L21'ers.. Not hate or dislike, Sorry if you mis-read my sarcasm.. Its quite difficult to express it via text. Though you do seem to be awfully sensitive to it.. Its nothing personal and it certainally wasn't directed towards anyone specific.

Why the sarcasm directed at L21'ers?

BTW, noticing something and being perplexed by it - since there seems no real reason for it - is not the same as being "awfully sensitive to it".

I did not misread what you wrote. It was snotty, and I got that part. The reason for the snottiness is what escapes me.

The sarcasm towards L21'ers isn't directed at the group as whole. Its directed towards the ones who I have mentioned in my previous post. It gets a wee bit too personal if I go into anymore detail and by that I mean it will be obvious that I'm talking about specific people. Which I'm not going to do.

The fact that you keep bringing it back up and won't let something as meaningless as a sligthly off-handed remark go, is perplexing to me.

I already told you it wasn't personal and I honestly don't know why you find what I said so snotty or offensive. Yes there was a bit of a tone, if you will, in what I said. But its nothing worth pursuing or looking into or making into what this has become. 

Either way I'm done with this site.


Samuel Isaackson, it would be a shame to see you exit the forum.  You show passion, are you sure you're not Iberian?  All seriousness aside, in the Schlegel DNA project, one of the lineages is sry2627.  It's pretty interesting considering its a German place name.

Hmmm, I do recall Spaniards being in Holland. Not to mention the Occitan was one of languages used for the oaths of Strasbourg. Not all "outsiders" of Iberia are going to necessarily point to another place of origin for SRY2627.

Sam, you must let go and embrace the Iberian (LOL). Seriously, I think taking a break for a bit is better than flat out leaving. Nobody wants you to leave--at least I don't.

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« Reply #337 on: January 31, 2013, 04:19:59 AM »

The distance-relation gap between neighboring cultures would for the most part be a common feature, albeit not an exclusive one. Factors such as sailing will bring a fair amount of people from one distant point to another. I speculate the movements that move along the coastal routes tend to create an eclectic mix of people, whereas the people who traveled overland will tend to "cluster," especially when a geographical barrier is involved such as the Pyrenees, Alps, peninsulas, islands, big rivers, etc. If rapid transit technology was available back then (which I'm sure it was in the form of horses, sailboats or ships), then closely related people can be distantly settled in fairly large groups.

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« Reply #338 on: January 31, 2013, 08:41:33 AM »

Arch and Webb,

Thanks for the support! I'll lurk and or creep for the time being. I'm not angry or anything, I'm just sick of discussing something that I feel wasn't a big deal.

I'll chalk the passion up to either Iberian machismo or Celtic defiance lol Perhaps a mixture of both?!

I'm fine with being Iberian, if that is infact where my y-line ultimately descends from. I favor the Urnfield label, as I have since the days of Dna-forums.

Granted, I have considered other possibilities as well. Ultimatlely though, Urnfield seems to be a pretty good fit.
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« Reply #339 on: January 31, 2013, 10:31:26 AM »

The distance-relation gap between neighboring cultures would for the most part be a common feature, albeit not an exclusive one. Factors such as sailing will bring a fair amount of people from one distant point to another. I speculate the movements that move along the coastal routes tend to create an eclectic mix of people, whereas the people who traveled overland will tend to "cluster," especially when a geographical barrier is involved such as the Pyrenees, Alps, peninsulas, islands, big rivers, etc. If rapid transit technology was available back then (which I'm sure it was in the form of horses, sailboats or ships), then closely related people can be distantly settled in fairly large groups.

Arch

Arch, this is my only issue with an Iberian origin, and I did for a while believe it a real possibility.  SRY2627 has an age of around 875 B.C.  Z209 and the North/South cluster has an age of around 850 B.C.  The two groups at one time were one.  Both groups must have split off and went there seperate ways.  The North/South cluster seems to have an equal distribution across Europe, no one place having more of Z220 than another place.  And yes the two last SNP's in the North/South Cluster line seem to be pooled in France/Spain.  These two are Z214 and of course the infamous M153, which seem to have developed after the Z220 group had already been in Britain as these two have not been found in any British samples.  This puts the split somtime between 200 B.C. and 200 A.D.  This said, I wonder if somewhere further east of Spain could be the starting point for both these groups, maybe France close to the Rhine, or Swizterland or Austria close to the Danube.  I do not think they started overly far from the Pyrenees, but yet they started out at the same time and from the same point as Z209, but are in two very different areas.
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« Reply #340 on: February 01, 2013, 01:20:03 AM »

Arch and Webb,

Thanks for the support! I'll lurk and or creep for the time being. I'm not angry or anything, I'm just sick of discussing something that I feel wasn't a big deal.

I'll chalk the passion up to either Iberian machismo or Celtic defiance lol Perhaps a mixture of both?!

I'm fine with being Iberian, if that is infact where my y-line ultimately descends from. I favor the Urnfield label, as I have since the days of Dna-forums.

Granted, I have considered other possibilities as well. Ultimatlely though, Urnfield seems to be a pretty good fit.

Urnfield has always best fit the description. I advocated that a long time ago seeing how the terminal point of the Urnfield spread appears to be in Catalonia or least the Ebro R. basin for which SRY2627 seems to be most predominate. Origins must be in the region between the Ebro R. and the head of the Rhine R.

Arch
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« Reply #341 on: February 01, 2013, 02:16:14 AM »

Arch and Webb,

Thanks for the support! I'll lurk and or creep for the time being. I'm not angry or anything, I'm just sick of discussing something that I feel wasn't a big deal.

I'll chalk the passion up to either Iberian machismo or Celtic defiance lol Perhaps a mixture of both?!

I'm fine with being Iberian, if that is infact where my y-line ultimately descends from. I favor the Urnfield label, as I have since the days of Dna-forums.

Granted, I have considered other possibilities as well. Ultimatlely though, Urnfield seems to be a pretty good fit.

Urnfield has always best fit the description. I advocated that a long time ago seeing how the terminal point of the Urnfield spread appears to be in Catalonia or least the Ebro R. basin for which SRY2627 seems to be most predominate. Origins must be in the region between the Ebro R. and the head of the Rhine R.

Arch

Indeed. Perhaps the reason why SRY2627 came to dominate the Pyrenees was due to the similar enviroment of their supposed place of origin.. aka the French/Swiss alps.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 02:27:40 AM by samIsaack » Logged

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« Reply #342 on: February 02, 2013, 04:30:44 AM »

I would love to see some more testing in the Occitan speaking regions of Italy and around the Italian Alps. The one thing that intrigues me are the Swedish findings. I wonder what on Earth brought them there? Seeing as how most can trace ancestry around to 1700 I am merely guessing their ancestry goes further back. SRY2627 If perhaps we consider the time frame SRY2627 emerged and guess the highest of the variances were found we could be looking at either the Volcae Tectosages, or Goths based on spread. SRY2627 is found in the
Ukraine, Visigoths/Ostrogroths, possibly Volcae Tectosages
Romania, Visigoths/Ostrogoths
Hungary, Visigoths
Italy, Visigoths, Cimbri, Celtiberians in Sicily
Spain, Visigoths, Vandals, Suebi
France, Visigoths (Vandals, Suebi in transit to Spain, Cimbri for a visit), Volcae Tect.
Sweden, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vikings?
Denmark, Cimbri
Belgium, Franks
Scotland, Picts? Saxons, Vikings?
Wales, Silures and other "Celtic Tribes"
Ireland (incl. N. Ireland), Not sure
Portugal, Celtiberian port of Oporto,
Canaries, From Normandy, Gascony, La Rochelle, and Mallorca
Baleares, Celtiberian
Madiera, Age of Exploration 1490s-1600s
Norway, Vikings
Germany, Saxons, Suebi, Visigoths
Poland, Visigoths, Vandals?
Tunisia, Vandals

Or we are really looking at the later phase of Bell Beakers at LBA. Clearly, Sweden, Denmark and Norway are not Urnfield. SO it might be better off to scratch that one.
Something in me keeps saying Goth long before they split up. The Volcae originated around the borders of Germany and Czech along with the Boi. But the Volcae did not make it to Italy or Tunisia. Visgoths would clearly have less variance and diversity from older Goths as they moved westwards over time. Not that I am ascribing that this would be the definitive answer since cultures and subclades are a bad mixture; what I am looking at is spread tied to a particular culture(s). We see our brother L165 clearly with origins in Scandinavia and we do have Swedish and Danish SRY2627.

Of course, Denmark with the Cimbri would be a possibility. Sweden has the Goths and Vandals and/Suebi are not too far off in Polan. So, SRY2627 has a northern point of origin but some thing or events are responsible for its spread across Europe.

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« Reply #343 on: February 02, 2013, 04:44:26 AM »

The distance-relation gap between neighboring cultures would for the most part be a common feature, albeit not an exclusive one. Factors such as sailing will bring a fair amount of people from one distant point to another. I speculate the movements that move along the coastal routes tend to create an eclectic mix of people, whereas the people who traveled overland will tend to "cluster," especially when a geographical barrier is involved such as the Pyrenees, Alps, peninsulas, islands, big rivers, etc. If rapid transit technology was available back then (which I'm sure it was in the form of horses, sailboats or ships), then closely related people can be distantly settled in fairly large groups.

Arch

Arch, this is my only issue with an Iberian origin, and I did for a while believe it a real possibility.  SRY2627 has an age of around 875 B.C.  Z209 and the North/South cluster has an age of around 850 B.C.  The two groups at one time were one.  Both groups must have split off and went there seperate ways.  The North/South cluster seems to have an equal distribution across Europe, no one place having more of Z220 than another place.  And yes the two last SNP's in the North/South Cluster line seem to be pooled in France/Spain.  These two are Z214 and of course the infamous M153, which seem to have developed after the Z220 group had already been in Britain as these two have not been found in any British samples.  This puts the split somtime between 200 B.C. and 200 A.D.  This said, I wonder if somewhere further east of Spain could be the starting point for both these groups, maybe France close to the Rhine, or Swizterland or Austria close to the Danube.  I do not think they started overly far from the Pyrenees, but yet they started out at the same time and from the same point as Z209, but are in two very different areas.

It's really tough to go with the current locations but if we just play the game that if we find higher variance and diversity further north and east, then this must be the point or near the point of origin. What we should also consider is what events would cause the spread of sublcades and their distribution in ancient history. If SRY2627 has an estimated age of 875 BC the we are looking at a spread of Indo-European speaking people from or near the center of Europe. What I find odd is how SRY2627 is found everywhere Germanic tribes of the Dark Ages have made their way throughout Europe. We have SRY2627 in Sweden, Tunisia, Spain, Canaries, Madiera I., and a whole bunch of place that would not seem to fit with the "Celtic" but more with a Germanic origin whether in the form of Visigoths, Franks, Suebi, Vandals, etc. It certainly favors the Goths. The Canaries were settled by people from Normandy, Gascony, Poitou, and Mallorca. All regions of which have Germanic lineages that made their way. Seeing the history of Catalonia and of Cantabria where SRY2627 makes some numbers, this is the region of the Visigoths. Was the Gothic expansion responsible for the spread of SRY2627 from around the Baltic Sea?

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« Reply #344 on: February 02, 2013, 11:50:44 AM »

The distance-relation gap between neighboring cultures would for the most part be a common feature, albeit not an exclusive one. Factors such as sailing will bring a fair amount of people from one distant point to another. I speculate the movements that move along the coastal routes tend to create an eclectic mix of people, whereas the people who traveled overland will tend to "cluster," especially when a geographical barrier is involved such as the Pyrenees, Alps, peninsulas, islands, big rivers, etc. If rapid transit technology was available back then (which I'm sure it was in the form of horses, sailboats or ships), then closely related people can be distantly settled in fairly large groups.

Arch



Arch, this is my only issue with an Iberian origin, and I did for a while believe it a real possibility.  SRY2627 has an age of around 875 B.C.  Z209 and the North/South cluster has an age of around 850 B.C.  The two groups at one time were one.  Both groups must have split off and went there seperate ways.  The North/South cluster seems to have an equal distribution across Europe, no one place having more of Z220 than another place.  And yes the two last SNP's in the North/South Cluster line seem to be pooled in France/Spain.  These two are Z214 and of course the infamous M153, which seem to have developed after the Z220 group had already been in Britain as these two have not been found in any British samples.  This puts the split somtime between 200 B.C. and 200 A.D.  This said, I wonder if somewhere further east of Spain could be the starting point for both these groups, maybe France close to the Rhine, or Swizterland or Austria close to the Danube.  I do not think they started overly far from the Pyrenees, but yet they started out at the same time and from the same point as Z209, but are in two very different areas.

It's really tough to go with the current locations but if we just play the game that if we find higher variance and diversity further north and east, then this must be the point or near the point of origin. What we should also consider is what events would cause the spread of sublcades and their distribution in ancient history. If SRY2627 has an estimated age of 875 BC the we are looking at a spread of Indo-European speaking people from or near the center of Europe. What I find odd is how SRY2627 is found everywhere Germanic tribes of the Dark Ages have made their way throughout Europe. We have SRY2627 in Sweden, Tunisia, Spain, Canaries, Madiera I., and a whole bunch of place that would not seem to fit with the "Celtic" but more with a Germanic origin whether in the form of Visigoths, Franks, Suebi, Vandals, etc. It certainly favors the Goths. The Canaries were settled by people from Normandy, Gascony, Poitou, and Mallorca. All regions of which have Germanic lineages that made their way. Seeing the history of Catalonia and of Cantabria where SRY2627 makes some numbers, this is the region of the Visigoths. Was the Gothic expansion responsible for the spread of SRY2627 from around the Baltic Sea?

Arch

Arch, this is my only issue with the Goths.  Z220 is in Britain and everywhere else.  Z216/Z278 is primarily Western Europe, then z214 is French and Spanish and has an age of 655 B.C. to 200 B.C.  Then you have M153 which is Spanish at 200A.D.  So Z220 was already in Spain/France prior to the roman collapse in order to spawn Z216, Z214, and M153.  Which is too early for the goths.  I would imagine since Z220, a subclade of Z209 and SRY2627 have a similiar story,  you mentioned Belgium but not the Belgae.  The volcae seem to be in the right places.  The only other option to that the Iberian and Aquitaini are of the same people that went on to become the celts and every wave of celts coming into Spain are a regurgitation of the same haplotypes.
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« Reply #345 on: February 02, 2013, 07:01:02 PM »

The distance-relation gap between neighboring cultures would for the most part be a common feature, albeit not an exclusive one. Factors such as sailing will bring a fair amount of people from one distant point to another. I speculate the movements that move along the coastal routes tend to create an eclectic mix of people, whereas the people who traveled overland will tend to "cluster," especially when a geographical barrier is involved such as the Pyrenees, Alps, peninsulas, islands, big rivers, etc. If rapid transit technology was available back then (which I'm sure it was in the form of horses, sailboats or ships), then closely related people can be distantly settled in fairly large groups.

Arch



Arch, this is my only issue with an Iberian origin, and I did for a while believe it a real possibility.  SRY2627 has an age of around 875 B.C.  Z209 and the North/South cluster has an age of around 850 B.C.  The two groups at one time were one.  Both groups must have split off and went there seperate ways.  The North/South cluster seems to have an equal distribution across Europe, no one place having more of Z220 than another place.  And yes the two last SNP's in the North/South Cluster line seem to be pooled in France/Spain.  These two are Z214 and of course the infamous M153, which seem to have developed after the Z220 group had already been in Britain as these two have not been found in any British samples.  This puts the split somtime between 200 B.C. and 200 A.D.  This said, I wonder if somewhere further east of Spain could be the starting point for both these groups, maybe France close to the Rhine, or Swizterland or Austria close to the Danube.  I do not think they started overly far from the Pyrenees, but yet they started out at the same time and from the same point as Z209, but are in two very different areas.

It's really tough to go with the current locations but if we just play the game that if we find higher variance and diversity further north and east, then this must be the point or near the point of origin. What we should also consider is what events would cause the spread of sublcades and their distribution in ancient history. If SRY2627 has an estimated age of 875 BC the we are looking at a spread of Indo-European speaking people from or near the center of Europe. What I find odd is how SRY2627 is found everywhere Germanic tribes of the Dark Ages have made their way throughout Europe. We have SRY2627 in Sweden, Tunisia, Spain, Canaries, Madiera I., and a whole bunch of place that would not seem to fit with the "Celtic" but more with a Germanic origin whether in the form of Visigoths, Franks, Suebi, Vandals, etc. It certainly favors the Goths. The Canaries were settled by people from Normandy, Gascony, Poitou, and Mallorca. All regions of which have Germanic lineages that made their way. Seeing the history of Catalonia and of Cantabria where SRY2627 makes some numbers, this is the region of the Visigoths. Was the Gothic expansion responsible for the spread of SRY2627 from around the Baltic Sea?

Arch

Arch, this is my only issue with the Goths.  Z220 is in Britain and everywhere else.  Z216/Z278 is primarily Western Europe, then z214 is French and Spanish and has an age of 655 B.C. to 200 B.C.  Then you have M153 which is Spanish at 200A.D.  So Z220 was already in Spain/France prior to the roman collapse in order to spawn Z216, Z214, and M153.  Which is too early for the goths.  I would imagine since Z220, a subclade of Z209 and SRY2627 have a similiar story,  you mentioned Belgium but not the Belgae.  The volcae seem to be in the right places.  The only other option to that the Iberian and Aquitaini are of the same people that went on to become the celts and every wave of celts coming into Spain are a regurgitation of the same haplotypes.

The problem with the Volcae is that we don't see them in Northern Africa and I have not seen anything showing SRY2627 in Anatolia (Galatia), albeit, we do have a few SRY2627 near Anatolia. Also, we don't see Volcae in Scandinavia or in Italy, and we have a few spread out from the North all the way to Sicily. When I think of Italy, I think of the Cimbri but I don't know if they reached towards Calabria and Sicily. It's still disputed whether Cimbri are Germanic or Celtic.

Only one culture fits closest to SRY2627's spread across all of Europe and that is the Visigoths perhaps with a smattering of Vandals and Suebic. Perhaps the Swedish SRY2627 are late arrivals there? Then what explains L165 and its association with the region and the Eastern region of England, and throughout Scotland mostly associated with Vikings. Presumably these Vikings are of Gauti stock? I don't know my Vikings very well but they do originate near the homeland of the Goths.

In regards to the Visigothic presence in Iberia, I think there is a notion to believe they arrived right after the fall of Rome in 410 AD and nothing could be further from the truth. They must have been showing up around 200 AD and settling the region as unwanted guests and squatters. The Suebi and the Vandals arrived just before the Visigoths as they were pushed further south (Vandals) and the Suebi to Galicia in NW Iberia. I don't see a Volcae presence in Iberia with possibly an exception of Lusones, but I haven't verified it. It's easy to see a possibility of the Volcae being responsible for spreading SRY2627 but then it falls apart when we move into Iberia, Scandinavia, Northern Africa, and Italy.

Going back to the Visigoths and their ancestral homeland around the Baltic of Poland and Southern Sweden, IF this region was perhaps the origins of SRY2627, it's almost a perfect match for where we find SRY2627 across Europe from this point forward. It would mean the age of c.800 BC could not be that far off from the original Germanic tribes and its decreasing variance or diversity as the clade moves west and southwest from the Baltic region. The Visigoth predominance moves to southern France and in Iberia from 400 AD forward. The only perplexing problem is the variance is higher in Iberia than in France for SYR2627, which would not indicate a Visigothic spread or any spread from other cultures North to South overland. The Pyrenees having the least amount of variance, perhaps an indicator of a push up north into the safehavens as the Moors invaded Iberia and pushed north and around the Pyrenees. Essentially a land of Franks and Visigoths defending Christendom.

Bell Beaker to LBA - Bell Beakers in N. Africa? Scandinavia? Ukraine?
Urnfield - N. Africa? Scandinavia? Poland?
Volcae Tectosages - Scandinavia? Poland or Baltic region?
Boi - Same as above
Biturges? -
Celtiberian - Where did its Celtic element originate? Eburones, Belgae?
Lusitanians -
Tartessian -
Cynetes - Same as above?
Aquitani - Same as below?
Iberian - From Ephesus? Troia? Etruscans? Ligurians?
Vandals -
Suebi - Origins in Baltic region
Visigoths - Origins in Baltic region

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samIsaack
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« Reply #346 on: February 04, 2013, 09:48:33 PM »

From the last couple of variance runs that Mike performed, both sets show French SRY2627 as being older than Iberian SRY2627.

SRY2627 France______: Var=0.94 [Mixed 49] (N=15)
SRY2627 France______: Var=1.06 [Linear 36] (N=15)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.86 [Mixed 49] (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.77 [Linear 36] (N=9)

SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.84 [Mixed 49] (N=63)
SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.80 [Linear 36] (N=63)

SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.80 [Mixed 49] (N=17)
SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.75 [Linear 36] (N=17)

Here's the second set..

SRY2627 France______: Var=0.87 [Mixed 24] (N=22)
SRY2627 France______: Var=0.96 [Linear 16] (N=22)

SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.79 [Mixed 24] (N=20)
SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.59 [Linear 16] (N=20)

SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.78 [Mixed 24] (N=75)
SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.78 [Linear 16] (N=75)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.76 [Mixed 24] (N=15)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.70 [Linear 16] (N=15)
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
Arch Y.
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« Reply #347 on: February 06, 2013, 05:47:38 AM »

From the last couple of variance runs that Mike performed, both sets show French SRY2627 as being older than Iberian SRY2627.

SRY2627 France______: Var=0.94 [Mixed 49] (N=15)
SRY2627 France______: Var=1.06 [Linear 36] (N=15)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.86 [Mixed 49] (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.77 [Linear 36] (N=9)

SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.84 [Mixed 49] (N=63)
SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.80 [Linear 36] (N=63)

SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.80 [Mixed 49] (N=17)
SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.75 [Linear 36] (N=17)

Here's the second set..

SRY2627 France______: Var=0.87 [Mixed 24] (N=22)
SRY2627 France______: Var=0.96 [Linear 16] (N=22)

SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.79 [Mixed 24] (N=20)
SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.59 [Linear 16] (N=20)

SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.78 [Mixed 24] (N=75)
SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.78 [Linear 16] (N=75)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.76 [Mixed 24] (N=15)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.70 [Linear 16] (N=15)


It's too bad these results are not broken down into specific regions. So, if the French samples are more variant, then where do the most variant and least variant cluster?

My only guess is that we have more people who in the southern region of France who tested positive for SRY2627, but are they more variant than other French samples?

If I'm not mistaken, we had more people test for SRY2627 in the La Rochelle/Poitiers and Gascony region in comparison to the Provence and Languedoc region. But we shouldn't solely rely on just one genomic company's data for frequency distribution.

Apparently the assumed origins must be in France by these results. The only one thing that comes to mind is how L165 associates with Nordic people. Are we then looking at perhaps the Normans, Gascons, Pictones, Bretons, as an explanation to understanding the spread of SRY2627 all over Europe? In particular, the Normans being the main reason for the wider spread of the subclade in later times Europe?

Arch





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Arch Y.
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« Reply #348 on: February 06, 2013, 06:26:13 PM »

The distance-relation gap between neighboring cultures would for the most part be a common feature, albeit not an exclusive one. Factors such as sailing will bring a fair amount of people from one distant point to another. I speculate the movements that move along the coastal routes tend to create an eclectic mix of people, whereas the people who traveled overland will tend to "cluster," especially when a geographical barrier is involved such as the Pyrenees, Alps, peninsulas, islands, big rivers, etc. If rapid transit technology was available back then (which I'm sure it was in the form of horses, sailboats or ships), then closely related people can be distantly settled in fairly large groups.

Arch

Arch, this is my only issue with an Iberian origin, and I did for a while believe it a real possibility.  SRY2627 has an age of around 875 B.C.  Z209 and the North/South cluster has an age of around 850 B.C.  The two groups at one time were one.  Both groups must have split off and went there seperate ways.  The North/South cluster seems to have an equal distribution across Europe, no one place having more of Z220 than another place.  And yes the two last SNP's in the North/South Cluster line seem to be pooled in France/Spain.  These two are Z214 and of course the infamous M153, which seem to have developed after the Z220 group had already been in Britain as these two have not been found in any British samples.  This puts the split somtime between 200 B.C. and 200 A.D.  This said, I wonder if somewhere further east of Spain could be the starting point for both these groups, maybe France close to the Rhine, or Swizterland or Austria close to the Danube.  I do not think they started overly far from the Pyrenees, but yet they started out at the same time and from the same point as Z209, but are in two very different areas.

I'm really that opposed to the idea that SRY2627 emerged in Italy, perhaps even Switzerland, nearby Liechtenstein or the Tyrol region of Austria. Germany, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, I might not really agree with, but convince me.

We're running out of countries here. BTW I'm only applying the idea of region instead of geopolitical boundaries. Identifying the country helps locate the region and then I hope we can move on from there and in identifying the source valley, pass, village...

Perhaps its not "Iberian" in the strictest sense, but more pre-Pyrenean. If we're looking at variance going higher north of Iberia, well the pre-Pyrenees are north of Iberia and the least variant SRY2627 in the Pyrenees.

So, if I read this right, the Pyrenees is really sort of the last point where SRY2627 clustered up as a "big group" (obviously, not everybody made it to the Pyrenees). However, I wonder what percentage migrated across the Garonne-Aude river gap reaching the Atlantic from southern routes.

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Arch Y.
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« Reply #349 on: February 08, 2013, 04:24:22 AM »

From the last couple of variance runs that Mike performed, both sets show French SRY2627 as being older than Iberian SRY2627.

SRY2627 France______: Var=0.94 [Mixed 49] (N=15)
SRY2627 France______: Var=1.06 [Linear 36] (N=15)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.86 [Mixed 49] (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.77 [Linear 36] (N=9)

SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.84 [Mixed 49] (N=63)
SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.80 [Linear 36] (N=63)

SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.80 [Mixed 49] (N=17)
SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.75 [Linear 36] (N=17)

Here's the second set..

SRY2627 France______: Var=0.87 [Mixed 24] (N=22)
SRY2627 France______: Var=0.96 [Linear 16] (N=22)

SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.79 [Mixed 24] (N=20)
SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.59 [Linear 16] (N=20)

SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.78 [Mixed 24] (N=75)
SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.78 [Linear 16] (N=75)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.76 [Mixed 24] (N=15)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.70 [Linear 16] (N=15)


I wonder how much of Cantabrian SRY2627 got added into this variance mixture table. Something just seems weird with the historic high frequency of R1b1b2* in the Basque Country.

http://goo.gl/a5Tvr

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