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Stephen Parrish
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« Reply #300 on: December 30, 2012, 10:33:00 AM »

I was wondering if upgrading to the Gene 2.0 of the Genographic Project is worth it. I participated in the first run, but I am completely unsure what benefit I would gain or additional knowledge could be learned from participating again.

Arch

Arch -

If you upgrade to Geno 2.0, you will see your R-L659+ SNP. You ask what additional knowledge could be learned by your participation in the Geno 2.0 project. Let me answer your question by first mentioning that I have the following derived SNPs that are downstream from R-P312, according to Geno 2.0: Z195+, Z198+ through Z205+, Z207+, Z264+, Z266+, Z269+, and CTS4299+ (my new terminal SNP). My raw data file tells me that I have Z262+. Geno 2.0 did not test DF27, Z196, L176.2, Z206, Z276, P312, Z263, Z265, and Z267. Z207+ is downstream from all the derived SNPs that I mentioned except for CTS4299+. (By the way, CTS4299+ also appears in the Geno 2.0 Y-SNP results of someone who traces his paternal line to northeastern Spain.)

In FTDNA's SRY2627+ haplogroup project, I now know that cluster A0 (your haplotype is in that cluster) has one known Z207+ member and one known Z207- member.

Your participation in the Gen0 2.0 project will assist with determining the placement of my derived SNPs (you might have some of those derived SNPs) with respect to SRY2627+.
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Y-DNA: R-SRY2627+ (terminal SNP: R-CTS4299+)
mtDNA: H2a2a1
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« Reply #301 on: December 30, 2012, 06:50:47 PM »

I was wondering if upgrading to the Gene 2.0 of the Genographic Project is worth it. I participated in the first run, but I am completely unsure what benefit I would gain or additional knowledge could be learned from participating again.

Arch

I'm waiting for data from two Geno 2.0 kits, my brother's U106 kit, and my cousin's L176.2/Z262 kit.  Realistically, my brother's U106 kit won't really be worth it, because he's already tested at 23andme, so we know things about his deep ancestry and his mtDNA.  The thing that would make it worth it is if we find an unexpected SNP that links us to someone else in the group.

My cousin's Z262 will be worth it because it will answer questions about 10 known SNPs near SRY2627, both about his kit specifically, and about those SNP's relationship to SRY2627 generally. 

But the Z262 test on the Geno 2.0 chip has failed, as everyone in U106 and L21 and Steve's SRY2627 kit have all come back Z262+.  We already know Steve is Z262+ because he's SRY2627, but the others shouldn't be Z262+. 

If anyone has Geno 2.0 raw data who's in the Z196 region and who would like to share their data, I'd appreciate it if they would email it to me so I could compare it programmatically with other similar data, and with my Z262 kit when it comes in.  I've done that with a lot of U106 kits, and occasionally something unexpected turns up that doesn't appear in the FTDNA transfers.
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« Reply #302 on: December 30, 2012, 07:20:19 PM »

I was wondering if upgrading to the Gene 2.0 of the Genographic Project is worth it. I participated in the first run, but I am completely unsure what benefit I would gain or additional knowledge could be learned from participating again.

Arch

Arch -

If you upgrade to Geno 2.0, you will see your R-L659+ SNP. You ask what additional knowledge could be learned by your participation in the Geno 2.0 project. Let me answer your question by first mentioning that I have the following derived SNPs that are downstream from R-P312, according to Geno 2.0: Z195+, Z198+ through Z205+, Z207+, Z264+, Z266+, Z269+, and CTS4299+ (my new terminal SNP). My raw data file tells me that I have Z262+. Geno 2.0 did not test DF27, Z196, L176.2, Z206, Z276, P312, Z263, Z265, and Z267. Z207+ is downstream from all the derived SNPs that I mentioned except for CTS4299+. (By the way, CTS4299+ also appears in the Geno 2.0 Y-SNP results of someone who traces his paternal line to northeastern Spain.)

In FTDNA's SRY2627+ haplogroup project, I now know that cluster A0 (your haplotype is in that cluster) has one known Z207+ member and one known Z207- member.

Your participation in the Gen0 2.0 project will assist with determining the placement of my derived SNPs (you might have some of those derived SNPs) with respect to SRY2627+.

Now that I have determined the 67 to 111 STR upgrade is not worth it for me since I already tested for most of the markers. Matter of fact it would be less expensive to order from the ala carte menu at around $160.00 for the 16 markers I need to test for at roughly $10. per STR. Maybe this Geno 2.0 is the better option. Is there a 'dis-count' for previous participants in the Genographic Project?

Arch
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 07:28:10 PM by Arch Y. » Logged
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« Reply #303 on: December 30, 2012, 07:23:13 PM »

That is weird the word "" does not show up on my text message. I tried editing and nothing. Is this a glitch?
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DavidCar
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« Reply #304 on: December 30, 2012, 07:27:02 PM »

That is weird the word "" does not show up on my text message. I tried editing and nothing. Is this a glitch?

It might be due to filtering out information thought to be related to online scams.  I know there used to be a ... for previous participants, but I'm not sure if it is still in effect.  You should email them about it if you're interested.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 07:27:41 PM by DavidCar » Logged
Stephen Parrish
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« Reply #305 on: December 30, 2012, 08:17:36 PM »

I was wondering if upgrading to the Gene 2.0 of the Genographic Project is worth it. I participated in the first run, but I am completely unsure what benefit I would gain or additional knowledge could be learned from participating again.

Arch

Arch -

A 67 to 111 marker upgrade costs $ 109 if it is ordered by midnight Central Standard Time tomorrow evening.

Stephen

If you upgrade to Geno 2.0, you will see your R-L659+ SNP. You ask what additional knowledge could be learned by your participation in the Geno 2.0 project. Let me answer your question by first mentioning that I have the following derived SNPs that are downstream from R-P312, according to Geno 2.0: Z195+, Z198+ through Z205+, Z207+, Z264+, Z266+, Z269+, and CTS4299+ (my new terminal SNP). My raw data file tells me that I have Z262+. Geno 2.0 did not test DF27, Z196, L176.2, Z206, Z276, P312, Z263, Z265, and Z267. Z207+ is downstream from all the derived SNPs that I mentioned except for CTS4299+. (By the way, CTS4299+ also appears in the Geno 2.0 Y-SNP results of someone who traces his paternal line to northeastern Spain.)

In FTDNA's SRY2627+ haplogroup project, I now know that cluster A0 (your haplotype is in that cluster) has one known Z207+ member and one known Z207- member.

Your participation in the Gen0 2.0 project will assist with determining the placement of my derived SNPs (you might have some of those derived SNPs) with respect to SRY2627+.

Now that I have determined the 67 to 111 STR upgrade is not worth it for me since I already tested for most of the markers. Matter of fact it would be less expensive to order from the ala carte menu at around $160.00 for the 16 markers I need to test for at roughly $10. per STR. Maybe this Geno 2.0 is the better option. Is there a 'dis-count' for previous participants in the Genographic Project?

Arch
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« Reply #306 on: January 01, 2013, 01:20:55 AM »

Okay. I re-evaluated the costs and it would actually save me money to do the upgrade to 111 markers, so I did it and so that I can be done with the extensive testing once and for all--yeah right. As far as the Gene2.0 project, it looks like it wouldn't offer much more in comparison to what I get with 23andMe as to how much Northern European, etc. I am. Also, I have been convinced for a long time that I have Neandertal blood lines. If Gene2.0 comes down to a more reasonable price and if they offer more, then I would reconsider it. So for now, here I wait for the 111 marker results. Yay!!! I think 111 is a pretty high resolution and should be good for the next thousand years.

Arch
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« Reply #307 on: January 03, 2013, 05:37:05 PM »

Hi Everyone, All of you have probably seen my results in other pages. I have Kit number N14866 and recently received Geno 2.0 Results. So, I'm baffled...the results state that my YDNA is SRY2627+ and R-CTS8289+

Can anyone shed some light on R-CTS8289?

Thank You!
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DavidCar
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« Reply #308 on: January 03, 2013, 05:50:36 PM »

Hi Everyone, All of you have probably seen my results in other pages. I have Kit number N14866 and recently received Geno 2.0 Results. So, I'm baffled...the results state that my YDNA is SRY2627+ and R-CTS8289+

Can anyone shed some light on R-CTS8289?

Thank You!

Send me your zipped raw results and I'll analyze them in comparison with some other P312 kits.  CTS8289 plus some other CTS snps have appeared in some SRY2627+ kits.

Follow the discussion at:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-P312-Project/messages
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 05:54:31 PM by DavidCar » Logged
Stephen Parrish
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« Reply #309 on: January 03, 2013, 06:46:04 PM »

Hi Everyone, All of you have probably seen my results in other pages. I have Kit number N14866 and recently received Geno 2.0 Results. So, I'm baffled...the results state that my YDNA is SRY2627+ and R-CTS8289+

Can anyone shed some light on R-CTS8289?

Thank You!

Alex -

According to Geno 2.0, what is your terminal SNP?

To answer your question concerning R-CTS8289+, it is a recently discovered derived SNP. Its placement with respect to SRY2627+ has not been determined.

Stephen
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« Reply #310 on: January 03, 2013, 06:48:39 PM »

The Terminal SNP is R-CTS8289+

I'm trying to get this data from Genographic P:

    My primary question is is there any additional information regarding R-CTS8289?
    How many other participants are positive for this subclade?
    When was this subclade discovered?
    Does this sublcalde have a different nomenclature within ISOGG Tree?
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« Reply #311 on: January 04, 2013, 09:39:14 AM »

The Terminal SNP is R-CTS8289+

I'm trying to get this data from Genographic P:

    My primary question is is there any additional information regarding R-CTS8289?
    How many other participants are positive for this subclade?
    When was this subclade discovered?
    Does this sublcalde have a different nomenclature within ISOGG Tree?


Alex -

Thank you for your very helpful reply. Knowing that your terminal SNP is CTS8289+ and knowing that two of my derived SNPs are CTS8289+ and Z207+ (you appear to have Z207-, the ancestral form of that SNP), I discern that CTS8289+ is downstream from SRY2627+ and upstream from Z207+.

CTS8299+ has not been added to ISOGG's haplotree, which will undergo considerable revision in months to come.

If I am guessing correctly, the CTS series of SNPs was discovered in the past year in at least one 1000 Genomes Project participant.

What is your National Geographic haplogroup designation? Mine is R1B1A1CDA1B1A.

Stephen
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 10:02:10 AM by Stephen Parrish » Logged

Y-DNA: R-SRY2627+ (terminal SNP: R-CTS4299+)
mtDNA: H2a2a1
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« Reply #312 on: January 16, 2013, 12:33:16 AM »

Okay. This may be a stretch, but nonetheless I will stick it in the fire to stoke up the coals and see what comes forth. Why are the mountain peaks in Northern Wales near Snowdonia called the Arans? Also, why is there an Arran Island in Scotland and Aran Islands in Ireland? What meaning do they have? I've heard that it means bread, but that seems way far fetched. Anybody good at ancient Brittonic languages? Aran toponym variants also pop up in Andorra. I have yet to find variants elsewhere besides in the Basque Country as Haran but its just odd that such a word exists only in one other region specifically around the Northern British Islands. Late edit: Also there is Arran in Ancient Albania what is now a part of northern Azerbaijan region. How interesting. The biblical definition means either "Ark" or "goat", not sure. A variant is perhaps cedar or fir (eron or something similar). I think the Brythonic definition may mean "high place". I think that makes sense based on prefix ar- using meaning before, older, supreme, or higher. The obvious reason why I bring this up is because of the Aran valley. Maybe its related to a pre-Indo-European language that is much older than Basque or that Basque takes Haran from an older non-PIE language that perhaps arrived to Iberia long before the Celts did.

Arch
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« Reply #313 on: January 23, 2013, 12:23:15 AM »

So with P312/S116, DF27, Z196, L176.2, Z262 and brother clade L165, what have we learned from these and how it relates to SRY2627's geographical distribution? I have yet to see anything useful come from Z262 and of course L165 has the Scandinavian and Scotland slant to it. L176.2 seems hard to pinpoint because its scattered all over Western Europe. DF27 does open up something unique in that appeared to be found mostly in Iberians (though I'm sure its not exclusive to them). Well, P312/S116 is what it is, everywhere. I just hope we have enough data to make a sort of judgment call that SRY2627 is either Pre-Pyrenean or Sub-Pyrenean or not. The variance seems high both north and mostly south of the Pyrenees itself. Of course its variance jumps from place to place (it can never be easy I suppose). Hopefully we might benefit from more studies with extended haplotypes in the near future to validate the earlier papers or to refute them once and for all. The debate of DYS490=10 and DYS490=12 doesn't seem to have much steam, at least not enough for it to split SRY2627 in half. I think for the most part, I'm looking for updates and new studies. So far I've been supportive of most of the Iberian studies for this subclade and over the many years the later studies have validated virtually all the earlier studies (which would seem to indicate something). The 2012 published study of showing SRY2627 shows the presence of this subclade strongly within the Pyrenees and its immediate environs. Should we really be looking to north in the Western Alps for origins or perhaps south in places like Alicante? Or is the Pyrenees still the most viable option for now?

Arch
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« Reply #314 on: January 27, 2013, 01:02:38 AM »

So with P312/S116, DF27, Z196, L176.2, Z262 and brother clade L165, what have we learned from these and how it relates to SRY2627's geographical distribution? I have yet to see anything useful come from Z262 and of course L165 has the Scandinavian and Scotland slant to it. L176.2 seems hard to pinpoint because its scattered all over Western Europe. DF27 does open up something unique in that appeared to be found mostly in Iberians (though I'm sure its not exclusive to them). Well, P312/S116 is what it is, everywhere. I just hope we have enough data to make a sort of judgment call that SRY2627 is either Pre-Pyrenean or Sub-Pyrenean or not. The variance seems high both north and mostly south of the Pyrenees itself. Of course its variance jumps from place to place (it can never be easy I suppose). Hopefully we might benefit from more studies with extended haplotypes in the near future to validate the earlier papers or to refute them once and for all. The debate of DYS490=10 and DYS490=12 doesn't seem to have much steam, at least not enough for it to split SRY2627 in half. I think for the most part, I'm looking for updates and new studies. So far I've been supportive of most of the Iberian studies for this subclade and over the many years the later studies have validated virtually all the earlier studies (which would seem to indicate something). The 2012 published study of showing SRY2627 shows the presence of this subclade strongly within the Pyrenees and its immediate environs. Should we really be looking to north in the Western Alps for origins or perhaps south in places like Alicante? Or is the Pyrenees still the most viable option for now?

Arch

I think we can lay those old papers to rest with regards to origin theories. Do they show us where subclades of DF27 ended up? Of course, but they hardly tell us anything other than modern frequencies. While SRY2627 may have had origins in or near the Pyrenees, I seriously doubt that it happened further south of the mounation range. So I don't  the Pyrenees as a place of origin, but I wouldn't go further south either.

Iberia has long struck me as a pooling point for P312, not an expansion point. Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea that P312's descendants occured on their way to their modern frequency zones. That seems to be an idea held in high regard with the L21 crowd if you ask me. Never quite understood that one. At least with regards for a need to have been an aboriginal subclade within the Isles.

Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc".
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« Reply #315 on: January 27, 2013, 06:09:43 AM »



I think we can lay those old papers to rest with regards to origin theories. Do they show us where subclades of DF27 ended up? Of course, but they hardly tell us anything other than modern frequencies. While SRY2627 may have had origins in or near the Pyrenees, I seriously doubt that it happened further south of the mounation range. So I don't  the Pyrenees as a place of origin, but I wouldn't go further south either.

Iberia has long struck me as a pooling point for P312, not an expansion point. Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea that P312's descendants occured on their way to their modern frequency zones. That seems to be an idea held in high regard with the L21 crowd if you ask me. Never quite understood that one. At least with regards for a need to have been an aboriginal subclade within the Isles.

Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc".
[/quote]

My understanding is that DF27 is primarily Iberian (not exclusively of course) and though L176.2 is kind of everywhere, we do have it in Iberia. Then of course, Z262 just throws everything off along with the brother clade of L165 which points to Scotland with Norse ancestry. The diversity and variance issues will surface up here and there but Iberia outside the Pyrenees contains some pretty good variance and what strikes me as odd is how that variance really drops in France. I'm more inclined to think the expansion of the Roman Empire had to possibly do with the spread of this subclade. It's high frequency in Liebana nearest the battlefields of the "Fiery Wars" where at least 5-6 legions were involved. Of course, we have Tarragona (Tarraco) and Empuries in modern day Catalonia that were the Romans entered at started to establish Hispania Citerior and Ulterior. Obviously Tarrco was of great importance and it connects with the Ilergetes and that of Celtiberians during the siege of Numantia. Those older studies have been consistent in validating each other's findings and so I am quite reluctant to refute the data points especially when other papers support the high presence of upstream subclades in Iberia with some high frequency. I am not so sure if SRY2627 is Iberian, Celtiberian, but it doesn't seem to be Iberian Celt. The further south we go into Iberia, would seem to show a higher diversity and the closer it gets to Corduba and Huelva, the closer it gets to Tartessian. Back to the Romans, I remember a while ago there was a paper pondering the possibility that SRY2627's presence in the Liebana (near the famous Covadonga, which a launching point of the Reconquista of Spain) could be Visigothic, Roman, and perhaps the presence of SRY2627 in Britain itself is related to Basque fishermen. Visigothic is tempting, but the Romans are more closer as there is a connection to Iberians. Also, I still to this day find it odd how we can get physical descriptions of the Silures and how they compare to Hispania. Is it possible the Silures are a late arrival to Britain just before the Romans? These people apparently look different enough from the others that they warrant mention. I am okay with Iberian, Celtiberian, or even Silurian; it's not a matter of cultural preference as it is a matter of pinpointing possible geographic origins.
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« Reply #316 on: January 27, 2013, 04:41:37 PM »



I think we can lay those old papers to rest with regards to origin theories. Do they show us where subclades of DF27 ended up? Of course, but they hardly tell us anything other than modern frequencies. While SRY2627 may have had origins in or near the Pyrenees, I seriously doubt that it happened further south of the mounation range. So I don't  the Pyrenees as a place of origin, but I wouldn't go further south either.

Iberia has long struck me as a pooling point for P312, not an expansion point. Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea that P312's descendants occured on their way to their modern frequency zones. That seems to be an idea held in high regard with the L21 crowd if you ask me. Never quite understood that one. At least with regards for a need to have been an aboriginal subclade within the Isles.

Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc".

My understanding is that DF27 is primarily Iberian (not exclusively of course) and though L176.2 is kind of everywhere, we do have it in Iberia. Then of course, Z262 just throws everything off along with the brother clade of L165 which points to Scotland with Norse ancestry. The diversity and variance issues will surface up here and there but Iberia outside the Pyrenees contains some pretty good variance and what strikes me as odd is how that variance really drops in France. I'm more inclined to think the expansion of the Roman Empire had to possibly do with the spread of this subclade. It's high frequency in Liebana nearest the battlefields of the "Fiery Wars" where at least 5-6 legions were involved. Of course, we have Tarragona (Tarraco) and Empuries in modern day Catalonia that were the Romans entered at started to establish Hispania Citerior and Ulterior. Obviously Tarrco was of great importance and it connects with the Ilergetes and that of Celtiberians during the siege of Numantia. Those older studies have been consistent in validating each other's findings and so I am quite reluctant to refute the data points especially when other papers support the high presence of upstream subclades in Iberia with some high frequency. I am not so sure if SRY2627 is Iberian, Celtiberian, but it doesn't seem to be Iberian Celt. The further south we go into Iberia, would seem to show a higher diversity and the closer it gets to Corduba and Huelva, the closer it gets to Tartessian. Back to the Romans, I remember a while ago there was a paper pondering the possibility that SRY2627's presence in the Liebana (near the famous Covadonga, which a launching point of the Reconquista of Spain) could be Visigothic, Roman, and perhaps the presence of SRY2627 in Britain itself is related to Basque fishermen. Visigothic is tempting, but the Romans are more closer as there is a connection to Iberians. Also, I still to this day find it odd how we can get physical descriptions of the Silures and how they compare to Hispania. Is it possible the Silures are a late arrival to Britain just before the Romans? These people apparently look different enough from the others that they warrant mention. I am okay with Iberian, Celtiberian, or even Silurian; it's not a matter of cultural preference as it is a matter of pinpointing possible geographic origins.
[/quote]

The Silures have been on my mind quite a bit here lately too. Very tempting for me, as their homeland is within geographic range of my families homeland. Theres some reason why SRY2627 is more prominent in the Southwest of England (and Wales if Im not mistaken). I think its due to some sort of metalurgist type tribe migrating there or trade with other locations involving metals. At any rate, I think SRY2627 was in the Isles before the romans got there. The fact that SRY2627 seems contained to the southwest also adds a bit of reinforcement to a Silurian origin, with regards to where SRY2627 came from before it got to the isles.
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« Reply #317 on: January 27, 2013, 06:46:47 PM »

. . .

Iberia has long struck me as a pooling point for P312, not an expansion point. Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea that P312's descendants occured on their way to their modern frequency zones. That seems to be an idea held in high regard with the L21 crowd if you ask me. Never quite understood that one. At least with regards for a need to have been an aboriginal subclade within the Isles.

Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc".

Perhaps you could explain what you mean. Where did P312's SNP descendants arise then? All in their current places of highest frequency?

Maybe you didn't intend a snotty tone, but it's certainly there: "the L21 crowd"  . . . "Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc"[sic]".

You have used a number of your posts in the past to complain that there are too many L21-related posts here. It amazes me that a fellow P312er would complain and make sarcastic remarks about the members of another P312+ haplogroup.

And what member of "the L21 crowd" has labeled SRY2627 "Iberian" and insisted on it? I don't recall doing that ever (not that there is anything wrong with being Iberian - there's not).



« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 06:53:10 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #318 on: January 27, 2013, 08:43:50 PM »



I think we can lay those old papers to rest with regards to origin theories. Do they show us where subclades of DF27 ended up? Of course, but they hardly tell us anything other than modern frequencies. While SRY2627 may have had origins in or near the Pyrenees, I seriously doubt that it happened further south of the mounation range. So I don't  the Pyrenees as a place of origin, but I wouldn't go further south either.

Iberia has long struck me as a pooling point for P312, not an expansion point. Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea that P312's descendants occured on their way to their modern frequency zones. That seems to be an idea held in high regard with the L21 crowd if you ask me. Never quite understood that one. At least with regards for a need to have been an aboriginal subclade within the Isles.

Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc".

My understanding is that DF27 is primarily Iberian (not exclusively of course) and though L176.2 is kind of everywhere, we do have it in Iberia. Then of course, Z262 just throws everything off along with the brother clade of L165 which points to Scotland with Norse ancestry. The diversity and variance issues will surface up here and there but Iberia outside the Pyrenees contains some pretty good variance and what strikes me as odd is how that variance really drops in France. I'm more inclined to think the expansion of the Roman Empire had to possibly do with the spread of this subclade. It's high frequency in Liebana nearest the battlefields of the "Fiery Wars" where at least 5-6 legions were involved. Of course, we have Tarragona (Tarraco) and Empuries in modern day Catalonia that were the Romans entered at started to establish Hispania Citerior and Ulterior. Obviously Tarrco was of great importance and it connects with the Ilergetes and that of Celtiberians during the siege of Numantia. Those older studies have been consistent in validating each other's findings and so I am quite reluctant to refute the data points especially when other papers support the high presence of upstream subclades in Iberia with some high frequency. I am not so sure if SRY2627 is Iberian, Celtiberian, but it doesn't seem to be Iberian Celt. The further south we go into Iberia, would seem to show a higher diversity and the closer it gets to Corduba and Huelva, the closer it gets to Tartessian. Back to the Romans, I remember a while ago there was a paper pondering the possibility that SRY2627's presence in the Liebana (near the famous Covadonga, which a launching point of the Reconquista of Spain) could be Visigothic, Roman, and perhaps the presence of SRY2627 in Britain itself is related to Basque fishermen. Visigothic is tempting, but the Romans are more closer as there is a connection to Iberians. Also, I still to this day find it odd how we can get physical descriptions of the Silures and how they compare to Hispania. Is it possible the Silures are a late arrival to Britain just before the Romans? These people apparently look different enough from the others that they warrant mention. I am okay with Iberian, Celtiberian, or even Silurian; it's not a matter of cultural preference as it is a matter of pinpointing possible geographic origins.

The Silures have been on my mind quite a bit here lately too. Very tempting for me, as their homeland is within geographic range of my families homeland. Theres some reason why SRY2627 is more prominent in the Southwest of England (and Wales if Im not mistaken). I think its due to some sort of metalurgist type tribe migrating there or trade with other locations involving metals. At any rate, I think SRY2627 was in the Isles before the romans got there. The fact that SRY2627 seems contained to the southwest also adds a bit of reinforcement to a Silurian origin, with regards to where SRY2627 came from before it got to the isles.
[/quote]

I remember reading somewhere that a large amount of Spanish glassware was found during digs at Tintagel Castle that were pre-Saxon.
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William B. Webb
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« Reply #319 on: January 27, 2013, 09:03:07 PM »


I remember reading somewhere that a large amount of Spanish glassware was found during digs at Tintagel Castle that were pre-Saxon.

I am interested in reading about this. If anyone can provide more info I would appreciate it.
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« Reply #320 on: January 28, 2013, 01:42:02 AM »


I remember reading somewhere that a large amount of Spanish glassware was found during digs at Tintagel Castle that were pre-Saxon.

I am interested in reading about this. If anyone can provide more info I would appreciate it.

I was just watching the documentary on the Mary Rose and I am absolutely amazed at this thing. What really struck me as quite interesting is that most of its crew was from Spain! I'm particularly interested in the archers. One for sure was tested as coming from Wales and it appears that most of the men who did come from Britain came from around the West Country and Wales. I'm hoping they can shed some light on the DNA analysis on the Spaniards who were aboard this ship.

Arch
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« Reply #321 on: January 28, 2013, 01:53:56 AM »



I think we can lay those old papers to rest with regards to origin theories. Do they show us where subclades of DF27 ended up? Of course, but they hardly tell us anything other than modern frequencies. While SRY2627 may have had origins in or near the Pyrenees, I seriously doubt that it happened further south of the mounation range. So I don't  the Pyrenees as a place of origin, but I wouldn't go further south either.

Iberia has long struck me as a pooling point for P312, not an expansion point. Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea that P312's descendants occured on their way to their modern frequency zones. That seems to be an idea held in high regard with the L21 crowd if you ask me. Never quite understood that one. At least with regards for a need to have been an aboriginal subclade within the Isles.

Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc".

My understanding is that DF27 is primarily Iberian (not exclusively of course) and though L176.2 is kind of everywhere, we do have it in Iberia. Then of course, Z262 just throws everything off along with the brother clade of L165 which points to Scotland with Norse ancestry. The diversity and variance issues will surface up here and there but Iberia outside the Pyrenees contains some pretty good variance and what strikes me as odd is how that variance really drops in France. I'm more inclined to think the expansion of the Roman Empire had to possibly do with the spread of this subclade. It's high frequency in Liebana nearest the battlefields of the "Fiery Wars" where at least 5-6 legions were involved. Of course, we have Tarragona (Tarraco) and Empuries in modern day Catalonia that were the Romans entered at started to establish Hispania Citerior and Ulterior. Obviously Tarrco was of great importance and it connects with the Ilergetes and that of Celtiberians during the siege of Numantia. Those older studies have been consistent in validating each other's findings and so I am quite reluctant to refute the data points especially when other papers support the high presence of upstream subclades in Iberia with some high frequency. I am not so sure if SRY2627 is Iberian, Celtiberian, but it doesn't seem to be Iberian Celt. The further south we go into Iberia, would seem to show a higher diversity and the closer it gets to Corduba and Huelva, the closer it gets to Tartessian. Back to the Romans, I remember a while ago there was a paper pondering the possibility that SRY2627's presence in the Liebana (near the famous Covadonga, which a launching point of the Reconquista of Spain) could be Visigothic, Roman, and perhaps the presence of SRY2627 in Britain itself is related to Basque fishermen. Visigothic is tempting, but the Romans are more closer as there is a connection to Iberians. Also, I still to this day find it odd how we can get physical descriptions of the Silures and how they compare to Hispania. Is it possible the Silures are a late arrival to Britain just before the Romans? These people apparently look different enough from the others that they warrant mention. I am okay with Iberian, Celtiberian, or even Silurian; it's not a matter of cultural preference as it is a matter of pinpointing possible geographic origins.

The Silures have been on my mind quite a bit here lately too. Very tempting for me, as their homeland is within geographic range of my families homeland. Theres some reason why SRY2627 is more prominent in the Southwest of England (and Wales if Im not mistaken). I think its due to some sort of metalurgist type tribe migrating there or trade with other locations involving metals. At any rate, I think SRY2627 was in the Isles before the romans got there. The fact that SRY2627 seems contained to the southwest also adds a bit of reinforcement to a Silurian origin, with regards to where SRY2627 came from before it got to the isles.

I remember reading somewhere that a large amount of Spanish glassware was found during digs at Tintagel Castle that were pre-Saxon.
[/quote]

SRY2627 is a tough cookie to crack sometimes. The subclade is all over the place and it's nearly or seemingly impossible to find out exactly where it originated. The obvious regions of high frequency is not a sure guarantee as much as I would love it to be. What I am particularly intrigued with is the arrival of men from Iberia from the Hundred Years War back to the Bronze Age Maritime Trade Exchange Networks. The Hundred Years War must have seen quite a few men from Spain, Gascony, Poitou, and Brittany arriving to Britain. Men from Gascony may have been the bulk of the famous English war bow archers in France (mostly in southern France). I also am intrigued at the prospects of perhaps Visigothic SRY2627, as well arrivals from Hispania Tarraconesis possibly with legions such as Hispani IX and several others that have been posted in Iberia along the Ebro River basis (SRY2627's hot zone so to speak).
Obviously there are all sorts of possibilities even if it's just a smattering of Basque or Gascon fishermen, or perhaps Pictones during the era of the Atlantic metal-exchange networks. It's always speculation but nonetheless it's quite interesting. Hopefully we can get some good evidence from ancient DNA pointing us closer to where SRY2627 originated and where the subclade made its entry into Britain.

Arch
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« Reply #322 on: January 28, 2013, 02:18:12 AM »

. . .

Iberia has long struck me as a pooling point for P312, not an expansion point. Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea that P312's descendants occured on their way to their modern frequency zones. That seems to be an idea held in high regard with the L21 crowd if you ask me. Never quite understood that one. At least with regards for a need to have been an aboriginal subclade within the Isles.

Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc".

Perhaps you could explain what you mean. Where did P312's SNP descendants arise then? All in their current places of highest frequency?

Maybe you didn't intend a snotty tone, but it's certainly there: "the L21 crowd"  . . . "Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc"[sic]".

You have used a number of your posts in the past to complain that there are too many L21-related posts here. It amazes me that a fellow P312er would complain and make sarcastic remarks about the members of another P312+ haplogroup.

And what member of "the L21 crowd" has labeled SRY2627 "Iberian" and insisted on it? I don't recall doing that ever (not that there is anything wrong with being Iberian - there's not).


I think the complaints are based on a lack of new information for SRY2627 since it's no longer the poster child it once had been in the earlier years of DNA research. This subclade has been worked over so many times that it almost seems like common knowledge that it's Iberian and so it's stated as such because of its frequency there. Obviously, nobody really knows where it originated so its really a moot point to point at the L21 crowd as Celtic in terms of origin as it is for SRY2627 to be called Iberian in terms of origin, all we have are frequencies and that can be proven and so the labels get attached the way they do. I'm fine with it, even if someday we magically find the "Holy Grail" of SRY2627 DNA in Antarctica, I will still say the subclade is Iberian due to its high frequency there.

Arch aka "The Iberian" and proud of it!!
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samIsaack
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« Reply #323 on: January 28, 2013, 02:32:16 AM »

. . .

Iberia has long struck me as a pooling point for P312, not an expansion point. Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea that P312's descendants occured on their way to their modern frequency zones. That seems to be an idea held in high regard with the L21 crowd if you ask me. Never quite understood that one. At least with regards for a need to have been an aboriginal subclade within the Isles.

Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc".

Perhaps you could explain what you mean. Where did P312's SNP descendants arise then? All in their current places of highest frequency?

Maybe you didn't intend a snotty tone, but it's certainly there: "the L21 crowd"  . . . "Oh well, we'll keep being "Iberian" and they can keep being "Celitc"[sic]".

You have used a number of your posts in the past to complain that there are too many L21-related posts here. It amazes me that a fellow P312er would complain and make sarcastic remarks about the members of another P312+ haplogroup.

And what member of "the L21 crowd" has labeled SRY2627 "Iberian" and insisted on it? I don't recall doing that ever (not that there is anything wrong with being Iberian - there's not).





I don't recall it either (An L21 person saying SRY2627 is and only could be Iberian). So I don't know what you're talking about. I do think that certain people favor the theory that P312's descendants occured on the way to their modern frequencies, based on a nationalistic need/desire for their subclade to have always been in a certain place or associated with a particular culture. Maybe I'm wrong. Either way thats just my opinion and I'm not going to censor it.  

I was arguing against P312's descendants arising where they currently hold their highest modern frequencies. I don't know how P312 spread, I don't have the answers.. I don't think anyone does yet. We're all speculating.. I'm basing my speculations on DF27's wide dispersal.. I'm arguing against using modern frequencies, because.. well, alot of stuff has happened in the past few thousand years and I think people moved around alot more than what is traditionally believed. That and Iberia has always struck me more as a pooling point for DF27's subclades.. How did they get there?? Thats what Arch is mentioning in his posts.. and while I don't always agree with him, I do respect his opinion and am always welcome to another viewpoint; even if I may not agree with it.

I have sarcasam towards L21'ers.. Not hate or dislike, Sorry if you mis-read my sarcasm.. Its quite difficult to express it via text. Though you do seem to be awfully sensitive to it.. Its nothing personal and it certainally wasn't directed towards anyone specific.
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
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« Reply #324 on: January 28, 2013, 05:52:17 AM »

As a compromise there's always Celtiberian ;)

We have another three DF27+ in the Ireland project, two of our members are DF27+/Z196-

I should point out of course that the Ó Néill's of Ulster (O'Neill surname) are looking like their mainline is potentially DF27+ (Z196-) this is what is known as "O'Neill Varient" eg. the fact that the mainline of O'Neill surname is not M222+ (pointing to them not been members of Uí Néill but a potentiall NPE) -- Uí Néill = dynastical title, completely different meaning form Ó Néill (Surname eg. O'Neill in english)

-Paul
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« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 06:00:17 AM by Dubhthach » Logged
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