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Isidro
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« Reply #75 on: May 06, 2012, 10:53:54 AM »

Ordered Z198  and Z262 , will keep updates as I get them.

Looks like general interest for L176.2 has been lost for obvious reasons. In my personal lineage iI have a pseudo tracker in the form of DYS454=12, of course is flawed from the get go but other speculations are built on a more shaky background.

My next project is get data for DYS454 from P312, Z196,L176.2,SRY2327 and M153 and see if there is a pattern for this marker that has a mutation rate more rare than all those mutations above combined.
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Haplogroups
Y-DNA    R1b1a2a1a1b5    Shorthand    R-L176.2 mtDNA    HV  23andMe: HV0

M269+ P312+ Z196+ L176.2+ Z198+

Z262- U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- M65- M37- M222- M153- L21- L165-

DavidCar
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« Reply #76 on: May 06, 2012, 03:34:36 PM »

Looks like general interest for L176.2 has been lost for obvious reasons. In my personal lineage iI have a pseudo tracker in the form of DYS454=12, of course is flawed from the get go but other speculations are built on a more shaky background.

Obvious reasons?  I'm new to testing L176.2, but I've noticed the testing rate for new SNPs here is much less than for my U106/Z8 kit where 5-6 people order a new SNP when it first becomes available. 
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samIsaack
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« Reply #77 on: May 06, 2012, 05:24:08 PM »

I think what Isidro means, is that back before Z196 was discovered, SRY2627 and then L176.2 and L165 were the main and at that time, only Z196 subclades. Since Z196 has been discovered and the rather large North/South cluster was discovered to be apart of it, interest has gone down for the L176.2 branch. Mostly because we aren't the largest group and there are very few L176.2 guys who post on here. We were strong on dna-forums, but since that site dissolved we've sort of disbanded. Thats my take on it anyways, Isidro could have meant something else entirely!
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
Isidro
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« Reply #78 on: May 06, 2012, 05:42:27 PM »

I think what Isidro means, is that back before Z196 was discovered, SRY2627 and then L176.2 and L165 were the main and at that time, only Z196 subclades. Since Z196 has been discovered and the rather large North/South cluster was discovered to be apart of it, interest has gone down for the L176.2 branch. Mostly because we aren't the largest group and there are very few L176.2 guys who post on here. We were strong on dna-forums, but since that site dissolved we've sort of disbanded. Thats my take on it anyways, Isidro could have meant something else entirely!

You are correct, sorry for not being precise DavidCar.

Z196 has changed priorities about L176.2 meaning in the SNP tree and since it has been found in different places in Europe it lost it's original appeal, on top of it seems like Z196 is widespread also.

One thing I don't know is if L176.2 and the North-South cluster along with Z196* and P312* are riders of the same storm or has been layered back and forth at different times in distant places.
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Haplogroups
Y-DNA    R1b1a2a1a1b5    Shorthand    R-L176.2 mtDNA    HV  23andMe: HV0

M269+ P312+ Z196+ L176.2+ Z198+

Z262- U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- M65- M37- M222- M153- L21- L165-

DavidCar
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« Reply #79 on: May 06, 2012, 07:12:08 PM »

The demise of dna-forums is unfortunate.

Thanks for the clarifications.  Hopefully we'll see a few more orders that will clarify the relationships between L176.2, L165, and these new SNPs Z198 and Z262 as well as L147.3.

Just out out of curiosity I worked out the following:

I count 171 members in the SRY2627/L176.2 project.  Of those, 135 are SRY2627+, 7 are L165, (there are more L165s in a separate project), 23 are L176.2, and 6 are misc.

Of the 23 L176.2s, 3 are grouped as L147.3+, 2 are proven L147.3-, and 18 are untested for L147.3.
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DavidCar
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« Reply #80 on: May 06, 2012, 07:22:53 PM »

Z196 has changed priorities about L176.2 meaning in the SNP tree and since it has been found in different places in Europe it lost it's original appeal, on top of it seems like Z196 is widespread also.

One thing I don't know is if L176.2 and the North-South cluster along with Z196* and P312* are riders of the same storm or has been layered back and forth at different times in distant places.

So our L176.2+ proves we're not in the big branch of Z196, and our SRY2627- proves we're not in the big branch under L176.2, so we're sort of the neglected child of the family.
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razyn
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« Reply #81 on: May 06, 2012, 08:04:15 PM »


So our L176.2+ proves we're not in the big branch of Z196, and our SRY2627- proves we're not in the big branch under L176.2, so we're sort of the neglected child of the family.


Maybe just late bloomers.  You have new stuff to test now, it just remains to be seen how some of it fits.  I hate to admit it, but it's looking more and more as if we are all going to have to go to 111 markers (maybe, among other costly upgrades) to sort ourselves out.
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DavidCar
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« Reply #82 on: May 06, 2012, 08:26:45 PM »

My Z1 kit is at 111, and it turns out to be in a small group well-defined by a few STRs, partly proven and clarified by a few SNPs.  Some of those that were originally grouped nearby because of some STRs eventually became split away by SNPs, so I would go with SNPs when available.

But many members of that group have been willing to upgrade to 111, as well as jump quickly into the new Z-SNPs.  By contrast, I see L176.2 for perhaps the past year or so could have been subdivided by L147.3, but only a few people have taken the test.

So at the present rate I don't see the group getting subdivided very quickly, or that there will be a significant number of 111 upgrades.  But I hope it won't take long to get the local SNP tree well defined.  I have become particularly curious lately as to where L165 branches off with respect to Z198 and Z262.  So hopefully that won't take too long.

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samIsaack
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« Reply #83 on: May 08, 2012, 04:18:56 PM »

For the first time since I've gotten into this hobby, my dna group finally has a "foreign" Isaacs individual testing. His Isaacs are traced back to 1750 in Gloucestershire, England. His mdka was a Samuel Isaacs, sounds familiar,no?, So this is very interesting! He currently resides in Australia, where his family moved to back in the 1950's. Heres to hoping!!
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
DavidCar
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« Reply #84 on: May 08, 2012, 06:15:22 PM »

For the first time since I've gotten into this hobby, my dna group finally has a "foreign" Isaacs individual testing. His Isaacs are traced back to 1750 in Gloucestershire, England. His mdka was a Samuel Isaacs, sounds familiar,no?, So this is very interesting! He currently resides in Australia, where his family moved to back in the 1950's. Heres to hoping!!

Good luck.
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Isidro
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« Reply #85 on: May 10, 2012, 09:24:50 AM »

Pending Tests
Tests    Lab Procedure    Batch    Expected    Notes
Z198    Z198    463    6/25/2012    
Z262    Z262    463    6/25/2012

I hope results come earlier, my last L165 test took only 10 days.

Any guess what my results will be?.
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Haplogroups
Y-DNA    R1b1a2a1a1b5    Shorthand    R-L176.2 mtDNA    HV  23andMe: HV0

M269+ P312+ Z196+ L176.2+ Z198+

Z262- U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- M65- M37- M222- M153- L21- L165-

DavidCar
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« Reply #86 on: May 10, 2012, 02:30:02 PM »

Pending Tests
Tests    Lab Procedure    Batch    Expected    Notes
Z198    Z198    463    6/25/2012    
Z262    Z262    463    6/25/2012

I hope results come earlier, my last L165 test took only 10 days.

Any guess what my results will be?.

No guesses for Z262, but I think you're likely to be Z198+, though a surprise is possible.  I think with enough tests there will be a division one way or another between L176.2 and Z198.

My Z262 took 16 days, and my L147.3 is in batch 462.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 03:26:47 PM by DavidCar » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #87 on: May 10, 2012, 04:51:34 PM »

Pending Tests
Tests    Lab Procedure    Batch    Expected    Notes
Z198    Z198    463    6/25/2012    
Z262    Z262    463    6/25/2012

No guesses for Z262, but I think you're likely to be Z198+, though a surprise is possible.  I think with enough tests there will be a division one way or another between L176.2 and Z198....

It L147.3 is definitely downstream of L176.2 but parallel to SRY2627 and L165, right?

I'm going through a number of surname projects looking for L176.2, L165 and SRY2627 guys.  I've found a few more.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 04:52:45 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
DavidCar
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« Reply #88 on: May 10, 2012, 08:31:42 PM »

Pending Tests
Tests    Lab Procedure    Batch    Expected    Notes
Z198    Z198    463    6/25/2012    
Z262    Z262    463    6/25/2012

No guesses for Z262, but I think you're likely to be Z198+, though a surprise is possible.  I think with enough tests there will be a division one way or another between L176.2 and Z198....

It L147.3 is definitely downstream of L176.2 but parallel to SRY2627 and L165, right?

I'm going through a number of surname projects looking for L176.2, L165 and SRY2627 guys.  I've found a few more.


Yes, there are both positive and negative L147.3s under L176.2, but an SRY2627 and an L165 tested negative.  GBrowse shows a bunch more tests, but I have no idea where they are.

I counted 32 L176.2s on your spreadsheet a few days ago, more than the 23 in the SRY2627 group. 
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samIsaack
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« Reply #89 on: May 11, 2012, 12:00:38 AM »

For the first time since I've gotten into this hobby, my dna group finally has a "foreign" Isaacs individual testing. His Isaacs are traced back to 1750 in Gloucestershire, England. His mdka was a Samuel Isaacs, sounds familiar,no?, So this is very interesting! He currently resides in Australia, where his family moved to back in the 1950's. Heres to hoping!!

Good luck.

Thanks, though I have my doubts about this proving to be fruitful.. This persons y-line extends beyond England and goes back into Wales. As you may or may not know, Isaac/Isaacs was very popular among Welsh Non-conformists.

My line is almost assuredly Scots-Irish.. the main piece of evidence for this is my Mdka's grandson.. Samuel Isaacks II.. who owned a Scots Gaelic bible in which he had his name enscribed and he had written "From back home" in it. The bible came from Dunbartonshire, Scotland and was the first fully Scottish Gaelic Old testament bible. Plus he was buried in the oldest Presbyterian cemetry in Lincoln County, Tennesse.. Unfortunately due to the Civil war the church was used as a field hospital and was subsequently torn down as the Union used it for its various purposes.

Interesting fact, This same Samuel owned and operated a Distillery on the same piece of land that Mr. Jack Daniels would eventually set up his distillery, using the same Lincoln county Process that Sam had helped to perfect.
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
razyn
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« Reply #90 on: May 11, 2012, 01:02:32 AM »

This same Samuel owned and operated a Distillery on the same piece of land that Mr. Jack Daniels would eventually set up his distillery, using the same Lincoln county Process that Sam had helped to perfect.

Hey, Big Sam, my great-uncle ran the Fayetteville Milling Co.  (His wife was my grandfather's sister -- our flour mill, and most of the family, was in Shelbyville.)  I've ridden on a flour truck over Chestnut Ridge, between those two mills.  Pretty exciting coming down, with a load of flour and no brakes to speak of.  I'll have to see if I have a Lincoln County whiskey jug or two.  Used to try to collect that stuff.

[Edit:  I have "J.V. Carothers, Pure Lincoln County Whiskey;" and "W.W. Alexander's, Fayetteville," which was a saloon mentioned in Goodspeed's history of the county, 1880s.  And of course Jack Daniel's, but that's been Moore Co. since about 1872.]

This comment was not, in the strictest sense, about SRY2627.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 10:22:02 AM by razyn » Logged

R1b Z196*
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« Reply #91 on: May 11, 2012, 02:50:58 PM »

I've found a few new SRY2627 people, along with some new P312* (that may be Z196) that I'm including in the Haplotype_Data_R-P312xL21 file. I'll post the new file later today.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/files/
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samIsaack
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« Reply #92 on: May 13, 2012, 02:11:48 AM »

This same Samuel owned and operated a Distillery on the same piece of land that Mr. Jack Daniels would eventually set up his distillery, using the same Lincoln county Process that Sam had helped to perfect.

Hey, Big Sam, my great-uncle ran the Fayetteville Milling Co.  (His wife was my grandfather's sister -- our flour mill, and most of the family, was in Shelbyville.)  I've ridden on a flour truck over Chestnut Ridge, between those two mills.  Pretty exciting coming down, with a load of flour and no brakes to speak of.  I'll have to see if I have a Lincoln County whiskey jug or two.  Used to try to collect that stuff.

[Edit:  I have "J.V. Carothers, Pure Lincoln County Whiskey;" and "W.W. Alexander's, Fayetteville," which was a saloon mentioned in Goodspeed's history of the county, 1880s.  And of course Jack Daniel's, but that's been Moore Co. since about 1872.]

This comment was not, in the strictest sense, about SRY2627.

Cool beans! I don't think anyones going to mind our discussion, which in its own distracted way, relates to SRY2627.  Though he isn't my direct ancestor, more of an uncle or maybe even a cousin, this Samuel was distilling whiskey around 1807 on what was to become the same plot of land as the first Jack Daniels distillery.

I remember you used to have your location listed as being in northern Virginia (back on the forums).. My Isaacks first set up camp there in about 1734 in Frederick (Then the massive county known as Old Orange), under what had to have been a Jost Hite land grant. Fairfax wasn't aware his claimed land was being sold until 1735.

I've always wanted to visit. Seeing as how I'm fairly close, South-Central Kentucky.. My Dad is currently working in West Virginia.. Perhaps the next time I pay him a visit I'll head on up to Frederick? Theres not much to be found, Isaacks wise, but I'd still like to see the land my people settled down on.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 02:16:22 AM by samIsaack » Logged

Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
razyn
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« Reply #93 on: May 13, 2012, 09:37:11 AM »

[quote author=samIsaack link=topic=10424.msg130996#msg130996
this Samuel was distilling whiskey around 1807 on what was to become the same plot of land as the first Jack Daniels distillery.
[/quote]

That's a little too early for locally branded whiskey jugs... the area was only opened for settlement, or "cleared of the Indian title" as they said, in 1805, I think.  Elk River land is what would be relevant, and the treaties that covered it were the Chickasaw Cession (of 1805) and Dearborn's Treaty.  There were of course some few settlers or squatters while it was still Indian territory; but any such investment was at considerable risk, and unprotected by anything like a courthouse, register of deeds, etc.

http://www.tngenweb.org/tnfirst/chicksaw/treaties.htm

I'll send you a PM -- it's not very obvious, on this forum, that that has happened, so look for it.
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R1b Z196*
DavidCar
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« Reply #94 on: May 14, 2012, 11:30:09 AM »

I just saw a note in a U106 thread that FTDNA is backlogged due to recent sales on tests, so getting results for the recently mentioned tests here may take longer that I expected.
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samIsaack
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« Reply #95 on: May 14, 2012, 06:00:19 PM »

Since the recent discovery of the two Beaker males being R1b-M269 and the current wide speculation that the beakers are responsible for the R1b distribution we currently see with R-L11* clades and those that descend from this branch.. I feel more than ever that the SRY2627 mutation was probably brought to Iberia via Southwest Germany with the Urnfield culture, itself a descendant of the Beakers.

The timing matches up with this as well as the distribution of SRY2627, though not large, it is spread to everywhere that the Beakers and Urnfielders have turned up. I'm still standing by my statements on other websites, that if Iberia does show up as being the most variant, that this high variance is due to the result of this group being amongst the earliest of the dispersal routes. Though, this doesn't mean I'm completely against a maritime arrival of an L176.2* into Iberia and the downstream mutations occuring later, possibly in Eastern Iberia. Though this still would not explain the complete and total lack of L165 in Iberia. Theres a Northern element to this group and it shouldn't be folded into the southern element, simply because the southern element is the most prominent.

I'm not sure which school of thought is more relevant here, the Iberian origin for Beaker or the more Eastern origins for them.. though from what I gather neither side is more convincing than the other.. so at this point it seems to be more of an opinion based decision rather than a factual one?  The Iberian origin would seem to create a sort of zig-zag pattern across Europe, if you believe that the Urnfielders are considered as coming from Central Europe and then expanding in their star-like pattern, with the Southern element returning back to their ancestral homeland? I know a straight linear path wouldn't make much sense.. so this doesn't seem like an impossible explanation.. It just seems more complex than it has to be. Though human migration is very random and sporadic at times.. I don't know.. I'm just kind of wondering to myself!

Had I known that I would become so interested in all of this I would have considered getting an education in Cultural Anthropolgy and Ethno Linguistics! I'm still young, so I guess its not too late!
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #96 on: May 14, 2012, 08:45:34 PM »

Since the recent discovery of the two Beaker males being R1b-M269 and the current wide speculation that the beakers are responsible for the R1b distribution we currently see with R-L11* clades and those that descend from this branch.. I feel more than ever that the SRY2627 mutation was probably brought to Iberia via Southwest Germany with the Urnfield culture, itself a descendant of the Beakers.

The timing matches up with this as well as the distribution of SRY2627, though not large, it is spread to everywhere that the Beakers and Urnfielders have turned up. I'm still standing by my statements on other websites, that if Iberia does show up as being the most variant, that this high variance is due to the result of this group being amongst the earliest of the dispersal routes. Though, this doesn't mean I'm completely against a maritime arrival of an L176.2* into Iberia and the downstream mutations occuring later, possibly in Eastern Iberia. Though this still would not explain the complete and total lack of L165 in Iberia. Theres a Northern element to this group and it shouldn't be folded into the southern element, simply because the southern element is the most prominent.

I'm not sure which school of thought is more relevant here, the Iberian origin for Beaker or the more Eastern origins for them.. though from what I gather neither side is more convincing than the other.. so at this point it seems to be more of an opinion based decision rather than a factual one?  The Iberian origin would seem to create a sort of zig-zag pattern across Europe, if you believe that the Urnfielders are considered as coming from Central Europe and then expanding in their star-like pattern, with the Southern element returning back to their ancestral homeland? I know a straight linear path wouldn't make much sense.. so this doesn't seem like an impossible explanation.. It just seems more complex than it has to be. Though human migration is very random and sporadic at times.. I don't know.. I'm just kind of wondering to myself!

Had I known that I would become so interested in all of this I would have considered getting an education in Cultural Anthropolgy and Ethno Linguistics! I'm still young, so I guess its not too late!

P312* in academic studies is a perfect fit for the Iberian international style of Bell Beakers. Given that almost all of P312* in Great Britain, Iberian and Tuscan samples turned out to be DF27+ in the 1000 Genomes Project samples, I see no reason why we can't assume that almost all academia P312* is in fact DF27. Given SRY2627 is most common around the Pyrenees and has its highest variance there, the best bet is that it was there with the Bell Beakers. More than likely SRY2627 got to Britain with the maritime Beakers.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 09:14:00 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
samIsaack
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« Reply #97 on: May 15, 2012, 03:40:21 AM »

Since the recent discovery of the two Beaker males being R1b-M269 and the current wide speculation that the beakers are responsible for the R1b distribution we currently see with R-L11* clades and those that descend from this branch.. I feel more than ever that the SRY2627 mutation was probably brought to Iberia via Southwest Germany with the Urnfield culture, itself a descendant of the Beakers.

The timing matches up with this as well as the distribution of SRY2627, though not large, it is spread to everywhere that the Beakers and Urnfielders have turned up. I'm still standing by my statements on other websites, that if Iberia does show up as being the most variant, that this high variance is due to the result of this group being amongst the earliest of the dispersal routes. Though, this doesn't mean I'm completely against a maritime arrival of an L176.2* into Iberia and the downstream mutations occuring later, possibly in Eastern Iberia. Though this still would not explain the complete and total lack of L165 in Iberia. Theres a Northern element to this group and it shouldn't be folded into the southern element, simply because the southern element is the most prominent.

I'm not sure which school of thought is more relevant here, the Iberian origin for Beaker or the more Eastern origins for them.. though from what I gather neither side is more convincing than the other.. so at this point it seems to be more of an opinion based decision rather than a factual one?  The Iberian origin would seem to create a sort of zig-zag pattern across Europe, if you believe that the Urnfielders are considered as coming from Central Europe and then expanding in their star-like pattern, with the Southern element returning back to their ancestral homeland? I know a straight linear path wouldn't make much sense.. so this doesn't seem like an impossible explanation.. It just seems more complex than it has to be. Though human migration is very random and sporadic at times.. I don't know.. I'm just kind of wondering to myself!

Had I known that I would become so interested in all of this I would have considered getting an education in Cultural Anthropolgy and Ethno Linguistics! I'm still young, so I guess its not too late!

P312* in academic studies is a perfect fit for the Iberian international style of Bell Beakers. Given that almost all of P312* in Great Britain, Iberian and Tuscan samples turned out to be DF27+ in the 1000 Genomes Project samples, I see no reason why we can't assume that almost all academia P312* is in fact DF27. Given SRY2627 is most common around the Pyrenees and has its highest variance there, the best bet is that it was there with the Bell Beakers. More than likely SRY2627 got to Britain with the maritime Beakers.

Thanks, Rich. I'm going to post this on the Facebook P312 group page, if you don't mind? There are a few P312* people who are on the fence about DF27 testing..
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 03:40:56 AM by samIsaack » Logged

Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

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« Reply #98 on: May 15, 2012, 08:33:32 AM »

...  Given that almost all of P312* in Great Britain, Iberian and Tuscan samples turned out to be DF27+ in the 1000 Genomes Project samples, I see no reason why we can't assume that almost all academia P312* is in fact DF27. ...
I think this is quite possible but I don't think that individual testers should assume this.  A lot P312+ U152- L21- people need to test for DF27.  A lot need to test for Z196 that haven't.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #99 on: May 15, 2012, 08:56:51 AM »

...  Given that almost all of P312* in Great Britain, Iberian and Tuscan samples turned out to be DF27+ in the 1000 Genomes Project samples, I see no reason why we can't assume that almost all academia P312* is in fact DF27. ...
I think this is quite possible but I don't think that individual testers should assume this.  A lot P312+ U152- L21- people need to test for DF27.  A lot need to test for Z196 that haven't.

I know some P312* testers feel a little battered from the multiple ancestral results they've received throughout the years and should welcome something that has a higher success probability than WTY SNPs. Hopefully they will embrace DF27.
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Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
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