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razyn
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« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2012, 12:28:14 PM »

It is possible to be theoretically wrong and still come up with interesting data.  This appears to be such a case.  But maybe I'm just inordinately interested in these particular data.
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« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2012, 12:46:15 PM »

Just to clarify, it is the blog writer who holds the paleolithic theory, but the data of the study is separate from that.  He is simply providing a link to the study and offering commentary on it.
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razyn
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« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2012, 01:51:15 PM »

Yes, but that stuff about Z196 isn't in the paper.  Or anyway not in that table; and the map is from Myres et al (2010), before Z196 was discovered and named.  I think the R1b-S-2 detail is from the blogger; maybe from some online board on which such things are discussed.  But whatever incorrect chronology may be attributed to these stats about P312 in Basque areas, I think the outline is likely to be fairly accurate.  That outline includes Z196 by name, if only from it's longest-known subclades SRY2627 and M153.  It's a step in the right phylogenetic direction. 

Little drops of water, little beads of dew.  Gotta start somewhere, and sometime.
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« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2012, 03:39:03 PM »

Based on the data of the study, it looks like SRY2627 is found in higher numbers than M153 in the following regions:

Bigorre (Hautes-Pyrenees dept. France), Chalosse (Landes dept. France), Alava Spain, La Rioja Spain, and Cantabria (where it has one occurrence only).  It is tied in Bearn (in Pyrenees-Atlantique dept. France), southern Gipuzkoa and northern Aragon.
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razyn
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« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2012, 06:44:54 PM »

A guy in the R-P312 Yahoo group, David Carlisle, has just noticed that a couple of the new Z-SNPs under L176.2 have become available for testing at FTDNA.  They are Z198 and Z262.  I haven't looked, myself.  But they are on the same level as SRY2627, in Rich Rocca's draft from last spring.  I don't know whether there's much reason for a flurry of testing these new ones.  Maybe Rich will comment.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 06:45:36 PM by razyn » Logged

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2012, 07:47:39 PM »

A guy in the R-P312 Yahoo group, David Carlisle, has just noticed that a couple of the new Z-SNPs under L176.2 have become available for testing at FTDNA.  They are Z198 and Z262.  I haven't looked, myself.  But they are on the same level as SRY2627, in Rich Rocca's draft from last spring.  I don't know whether there's much reason for a flurry of testing these new ones.  Maybe Rich will comment.

Both are interesting. Z198 is at the same phologenetic level as L176.2. However, L176.2 is a repeat and is not as stable as most variants used for genealogy. In fact, L176 has also been found in R1a. So, if someone is Z196+L176.2- or Z196+Z209- and doesn't have some of the typical NS values, I would recommend them testing for Z198.

Obviously the choice for testing for Z262 is a little easier. Those that are L176.2+ but SRY2627- should test for it.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 07:48:24 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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DavidCar
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« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2012, 09:12:22 PM »

Like I said on the Yahoo group, the way I read the chart it is still unclear whether Z198 is above or below L176.2, or whether Z262 is above or below SRY2627.  I'm L176.2+ and SRY2627-, also L165-. 
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2012, 09:38:58 PM »

Like I said on the Yahoo group, the way I read the chart it is still unclear whether Z198 is above or below L176.2, or whether Z262 is above or below SRY2627.  I'm L176.2+ and SRY2627-, also L165-.  

As per the 1000 Genomes samples, they seem to be at the same level. If you are already L176.2+, I would skip Z198 altogether and test for Z262.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 09:41:45 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2012, 10:10:03 PM »

... However, L176.2 is a repeat and is not as stable as most variants used for genealogy. In fact, L176 has also been found in R1a. So, if someone is Z196+L176.2- or Z196+Z209- and doesn't have some of the typical NS values, I would recommend them testing for Z198...
Do we have any reason to think that L176 is biologically unstable?  Some so-called SNPs, such as L69, apparently are.  However, just because an SNP is a "repeat" in a 2nd haplogroup is not necessarily a reason to consider that SNP to be unstable.  Given, the size of the untested population in the world and the frequency at which SNPs occur, many more SNPs are likely to be "repeats." What's important, as always, is the context of a test result.  I personally don't advise anyone to test for just one SNP, their expected "terminal" SNP without considering it context of a matching STR signature or phylogenetic trail of ancestral SNPs mutations.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2012, 10:37:56 PM »

... However, L176.2 is a repeat and is not as stable as most variants used for genealogy. In fact, L176 has also been found in R1a. So, if someone is Z196+L176.2- or Z196+Z209- and doesn't have some of the typical NS values, I would recommend them testing for Z198...
Do we have any reason to think that L176 is biologically unstable?  Some so-called SNPs, such as L69, apparently are.  However, just because an SNP is a "repeat" in a 2nd haplogroup is not necessarily a reason to consider that SNP to be unstable.  Given, the size of the untested population in the world and the frequency at which SNPs occur, many more SNPs are likely to be "repeats." What's important, as always, is the context of a test result.  I personally don't advise anyone to test for just one SNP, their expected "terminal" SNP without considering it context of a matching STR signature or phylogenetic trail of ancestral SNPs mutations.

L176.2 is not an SNP, it is an STR with 6 repeats of AAAAC instead of 5 repeats.

More than likely, it is stable enough, but with it also appearing in an R1a WTY sample it gives a little bit of an uneasy feeling. I would not be shocked if someone who is L176.2- tests Z198+.
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« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2012, 10:42:18 PM »

Do we have any reason to think that L176 is biologically unstable?  
L176.2 is not an SNP, it is an STR with 6 repeats of AAAAC instead of 5 repeats.
Thanks. I didn't know that. I agree, it may be a strong marker of a subclade but we should watch it with a wary eye.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 10:42:33 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Stephen Parrish
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« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2012, 08:32:29 PM »

Do we have any reason to think that L176 is biologically unstable?  
L176.2 is not an SNP, it is an STR with 6 repeats of AAAAC instead of 5 repeats.
Thanks. I didn't know that. I agree, it may be a strong marker of a subclade but we should watch it with a wary eye.
I recall that in at least one of his DNA Forums posts, Didier Vernade described R-L176.2+ as a pentanucleotide insert. :)
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DavidCar
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« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2012, 10:41:20 PM »

I ordered both Z198 and Z262.  Hopefully we'll see the results soon.
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Jason Bourgeois
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« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2012, 11:14:14 AM »

Okay, so it looks like SRY2627 is found at frequencies of 7-20% in the Pyrenees region, at 3.5% in Bretagne, and 0-1.5% almost everywhere else.  Does this imply an origin in the Pyrenees with a minority migrating northward?  Or is the alternate theory of a central European origin with twin migrations (one to the northwest and another, more successful one to the southwest) more likely?
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2012, 01:44:23 PM »

Okay, so it looks like SRY2627 is found at frequencies of 7-20% in the Pyrenees region, at 3.5% in Bretagne, and 0-1.5% almost everywhere else.  Does this imply an origin in the Pyrenees with a minority migrating northward?  Or is the alternate theory of a central European origin with twin migrations (one to the northwest and another, more successful one to the southwest) more likely?
I think it means the Pyrenees must be considered as origin point for SRY2627 but it does mean it is the origin point. Frequency is not the best indicator of origin.

I think it is worthwhile to look where SRY2627's brothers and cousins can be found. That would include L176.2*, M153, L165, Z196* and Z196* North-South.

This gives us quite a challenge as you find these guys all over the place, including Poland and Scandinavia.
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samIsaack
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« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2012, 02:53:58 PM »

I wish we could reference your old variance and diversity findings from dna-forums. Seems like I remember Germany showing higher diversity and equal to and on occasion slightly higher than Iberia in your variance runs.
 
I still like a Central origin point with multiple launch points. Though a Southern origin point is just as likely. Seems like L21 is elbowing for position in Iberia/Pyrenees as well! So who knows? We may have all originated in Iberia.
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razyn
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« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2012, 04:32:37 PM »

I wish we could reference your old variance and diversity findings from dna-forums.

Does this help?  I have the archived messages from that Z196 thread saved as a Word file, so I searched it for "variance" and this was around the 242nd page of that (really long) document.  Mike, if you don't want this displayed, say so and I'll edit the post.

Quote
Mikewww, on 01 July 2011 - 12:23 PM, said:
.... If you look at all of R-P312 (asterisk and subclade assigned) variance does not come out higher south of the Alps nor higher in Iberia. I'll rework what I have as I've now got all the Z196 guys (who have tested) but I don't think much will change. Even in terms of R-P312* (U152- L21- Z196- L238-), I'm not sure it has higher variance if you assume (incorrectly I think) that all of it (P312*) in Iberia is a true subclade or all of it in Italy is a true subclade. From my past runs at this, Iberia may be in the "race" for higher variance but Italy has never been close. U152 has very high variance so it will be hard to beat. I think Z196 will get up there in age as well and may surpass L21 in age.

This is why I question that P312 could have come from the Italian Peninsula into Western Europe. If it did, it's as you might have indicated, it was just a fleeting moment without leaving a trace. This is not to say some R-L23* (L11-) folks weren't there in the peninsula early. .....

Okay, so I went ahead pulled the haplotype files together from the DNA projects and can show deep data (long haplotype view) of the Z196 and the family.

The following are Sum of the Variance results "normalized" or relative to each other. Only 67 STR ht's were used with only confirmed SNP tested folks. Only the 50 non-multi-copy/non-null markers were used.

Here is the Z196 family:
Z196All________: Var=0.90 @1copy50; AvgGD=14, MaxGD=25 @67 (N=182)
L176.2All______: Var=0.90 @1copy50; AvgGD=14, MaxGD=25 @67 (N=182)
SRY2627All_____: Var=0.84 @1copy50; AvgGD=13, MaxGD=27 @67 (N=140)
M153(BasqMkr)__: Var=0.26 @1copy50; AvgGD=6, MaxGD=11 @67 (N=5)
Z196* Z196?*___: Var=0.92 @1copy50; AvgGD=14, MaxGD=22 @67 (N=28)

Z196* Z196?* represents people that are true Z196+ L176.2- M153- people and Z196+ M153- SRY2627- L176.2 unknown people. The NS cluster people fit in with these guys as well as a few sundry others.

Keep in mind that Z196* could get higher variance as we do more testing and if we find more clusters of those folks in the P312* audience beyond NS (p1418) and p1518.

The M153 group is only five so I don't think that is a large enough group to consider valid. Generally, it does appear to very young, though.
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« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2012, 10:04:22 PM »

It is interesting that in this new study, SRY2627 is highest in the regions immediately surrounding the Basque country (Bearn and Aragon to the east, La Rioja to the south).

I wonder if its high presence in those regions indicates a historical connection with Aquitanian people that were more easily assimilated to the dominant Celtic and/or Latin culture than the Basques were....
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2012, 10:45:01 PM »

Does this help?  I have the archived messages from that Z196 thread saved as a Word file, so I searched it for "variance" and this was around the 242nd page of that (really long) document.  Mike, if you don't want this displayed, say so and I'll edit the post.

No problem. I guess I should run that stuff again as we have more haplotypes.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 10:45:38 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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samIsaack
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« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2012, 11:21:21 PM »

I wish we could reference your old variance and diversity findings from dna-forums.

Does this help?  I have the archived messages from that Z196 thread saved as a Word file, so I searched it for "variance" and this was around the 242nd page of that (really long) document.  Mike, if you don't want this displayed, say so and I'll edit the post.

Quote
Mikewww, on 01 July 2011 - 12:23 PM, said:
.... If you look at all of R-P312 (asterisk and subclade assigned) variance does not come out higher south of the Alps nor higher in Iberia. I'll rework what I have as I've now got all the Z196 guys (who have tested) but I don't think much will change. Even in terms of R-P312* (U152- L21- Z196- L238-), I'm not sure it has higher variance if you assume (incorrectly I think) that all of it (P312*) in Iberia is a true subclade or all of it in Italy is a true subclade. From my past runs at this, Iberia may be in the "race" for higher variance but Italy has never been close. U152 has very high variance so it will be hard to beat. I think Z196 will get up there in age as well and may surpass L21 in age.

This is why I question that P312 could have come from the Italian Peninsula into Western Europe. If it did, it's as you might have indicated, it was just a fleeting moment without leaving a trace. This is not to say some R-L23* (L11-) folks weren't there in the peninsula early. .....

Okay, so I went ahead pulled the haplotype files together from the DNA projects and can show deep data (long haplotype view) of the Z196 and the family.

The following are Sum of the Variance results "normalized" or relative to each other. Only 67 STR ht's were used with only confirmed SNP tested folks. Only the 50 non-multi-copy/non-null markers were used.

Here is the Z196 family:
Z196All________: Var=0.90 @1copy50; AvgGD=14, MaxGD=25 @67 (N=182)
L176.2All______: Var=0.90 @1copy50; AvgGD=14, MaxGD=25 @67 (N=182)
SRY2627All_____: Var=0.84 @1copy50; AvgGD=13, MaxGD=27 @67 (N=140)
M153(BasqMkr)__: Var=0.26 @1copy50; AvgGD=6, MaxGD=11 @67 (N=5)
Z196* Z196?*___: Var=0.92 @1copy50; AvgGD=14, MaxGD=22 @67 (N=28)

Z196* Z196?* represents people that are true Z196+ L176.2- M153- people and Z196+ M153- SRY2627- L176.2 unknown people. The NS cluster people fit in with these guys as well as a few sundry others.

Keep in mind that Z196* could get higher variance as we do more testing and if we find more clusters of those folks in the P312* audience beyond NS (p1418) and p1518.

The M153 group is only five so I don't think that is a large enough group to consider valid. Generally, it does appear to very young, though.

I'd actually forgot about this one. Yes, thank you.
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samIsaack
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« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2012, 11:23:05 PM »

Does this help?  I have the archived messages from that Z196 thread saved as a Word file, so I searched it for "variance" and this was around the 242nd page of that (really long) document.  Mike, if you don't want this displayed, say so and I'll edit the post.

No problem. I guess I should run that stuff again as we have more haplotypes.

Yes, please do! I'm not very computer savy, so I'm not able to run the variance myself. That and I seem to have alot of trouble logging into the yahoo group where you have the info stored.
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« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2012, 03:37:30 PM »

A slight update on the member of my Isaacs group who has a gd of 14 with me at 37 markers. I spoke with my group admin and he informed me that this individual had actually passed away a few years back.

He also informed me that Ftdna has requested additional dna from the person who took over the deceased's account, to complete the Deep-clade test? I didn't think furter samples were required? Seems a little under-handed to me. My admin asked why this was necessary and hasn't received an answer.
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razyn
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« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2012, 11:15:51 AM »

A guy in the R-P312 Yahoo group, David Carlisle, has just noticed that a couple of the new Z-SNPs under L176.2 have become available for testing at FTDNA.  They are Z198 and Z262.  I haven't looked, myself.  But they are on the same level as SRY2627, in Rich Rocca's draft from last spring.  I don't know whether there's much reason for a flurry of testing these new ones.  Maybe Rich will comment.

Both are interesting. Z198 is at the same phologenetic level as L176.2. However, L176.2 is a repeat and is not as stable as most variants used for genealogy. In fact, L176 has also been found in R1a. So, if someone is Z196+L176.2- or Z196+Z209- and doesn't have some of the typical NS values, I would recommend them testing for Z198.

Obviously the choice for testing for Z262 is a little easier. Those that are L176.2+ but SRY2627- should test for it.

Just looking at the Gbrowse at FTDNA today, I see that the current rate of positive tests for Z198 is 0 of 1, and positive for Z262 is 0 of 8. I don't know who has been testing; but if that group of tests is "targeted," the target has been missed, so far.
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« Reply #48 on: April 23, 2012, 01:00:27 AM »

Okay! This may be a huge stab in the dark, but here it goes anyway. It may possibly be that my paternal ancestry in England is connected to the Leicester and Derby area, or more generally in the East Midlands region. This is based on the Toone/Tune and Yeomans connection in Richmond, Virginia and perhaps to Measham, England. All I know is that myself and a Toone test SRY2627+. Also, out of 58 markers, we share a total of 40 that are exactly the same. I did a comparison to Juillet and Toone shares one more common marker than I do to Juillet. Juillet is unique as he and I both have the rare DYS448=17. I have yet to do the GD between myself and Toone, nonetheless, I thought this was interesting find.

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« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2012, 01:05:27 AM »

Update: At 76 markers myself and Toone have a GD of 22.

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