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Author Topic: SRY2627  (Read 50335 times)
Terry Barton
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« on: March 10, 2012, 06:33:54 PM »

New Topic for SRY2627 started at suggestion of Sam.  As long as this Topic is active, it will stay near the top of the list here at R1b and Subclades.   Terry
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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2012, 01:58:01 AM »

Thank you. I am quite sure the SRY2627 guys will keep this topic active and lively.
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samIsaack
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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2012, 01:27:55 PM »

Yes, Thank you!
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« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2012, 01:28:07 AM »

Interesting note. The other day I was fussing about with all the autosomal programs and I came up with a lot of similarities in Poland and in the Valley of Mexico. Such a strange combination. What I thought was peculiar is that SRY2627 is found around the Baltic Sea region (Poland and Sweden) and as well Spain, which is usually has the highest input for Mexico. Then again, the whole thing could be completely off.

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« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2012, 04:56:52 AM »

Interesting note. The other day I was fussing about with all the autosomal programs and I came up with a lot of similarities in Poland and in the Valley of Mexico. Such a strange combination. What I thought was peculiar is that SRY2627 is found around the Baltic Sea region (Poland and Sweden) and as well Spain, which is usually has the highest input for Mexico. Then again, the whole thing could be completely off.

Arch

I'm not sure why, but when compared to other P312 clades, Z196 just seems to have more of an Eastern feel about it. I too have both sides of the SRY2627 spectrum showing up, not autosamally mind you, but I'm still receiving matches from both.

I think one of the main issues I've recently had with the Iberian side of things, is that the general consensus seems to be that R1b-L11 clades are much more recent there than once thought. Would this not eliminate Z196 from having origins there? I know quite a few people seem to believe that Z196 is the predominant P312 clade in this area, which it certainly seems to be.. But as I've said before, it seems to be mostly North-South Cluster, M153 and SRY2627. All three are too vague to attach to anything with complete confidence.



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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2012, 08:31:31 AM »

I'm not sure why, but when compared to other P312 clades, Z196 just seems to have more of an Eastern feel about it.
I agree that Z196 is a bit unique, but I would position it as a bit unique in the L11 family.  The other major subclades, U152, U106 and L21, are all pretty segregated and distinct in their predominant territories.  Z196, on the other hand, is quite scattered all over the place.
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« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2012, 08:29:43 PM »

I'm not sure why, but when compared to other P312 clades, Z196 just seems to have more of an Eastern feel about it.
I agree that Z196 is a bit unique, but I would position it as a bit unique in the L11 family.  The other major subclades, U152, U106 and L21, are all pretty segregated and distinct in their predominant territories.  Z196, on the other hand, is quite scattered all over the place.

Mike -

How, if at all, might Z196's apparent ubiquity explain SRY2627's appearance, albeit infrequently, in so many places?

Stephen
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« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2012, 05:44:13 PM »

I'm not sure why, but when compared to other P312 clades, Z196 just seems to have more of an Eastern feel about it.
I agree that Z196 is a bit unique, but I would position it as a bit unique in the L11 family.  The other major subclades, U152, U106 and L21, are all pretty segregated and distinct in their predominant territories.  Z196, on the other hand, is quite scattered all over the place.
How, if at all, might Z196's apparent ubiquity explain SRY2627's appearance, albeit infrequently, in so many places?

We have to keep in mind that the first SRY2627 guy came from a Z196+ L176.2* guy. That one guy could only be in one place, generally whereas he might have had distant Z196 relatives quite scattered....

However, I think a large part of Z196's scattering came after SRY2627's birth because SRY2627 is somewhat scattered too.... so is the Z196* North-South cluster.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2012, 06:53:44 PM »

I'm not sure why, but when compared to other P312 clades, Z196 just seems to have more of an Eastern feel about it.
I agree that Z196 is a bit unique, but I would position it as a bit unique in the L11 family.  The other major subclades, U152, U106 and L21, are all pretty segregated and distinct in their predominant territories.  Z196, on the other hand, is quite scattered all over the place.

If the apparent dating of P312 and major clades to the beaker period is correct then one thing to bear in mind is many people see an initial phase of thin but wide spread of beakers followed by more localised networks.  That would fit quite well a pattern with a widespread clade or two (Z196* and P312*??) and then growth of clades in more localised contact areas later.  Perhaps the earliest were Z196* and some sort of P312* precursor to L21*, U152* etc and there traces are spread widely but thinly both in genetic and archaeological terms while the rise of U152, L21 etc was in local blocks perhaps a century or two later.  Just a thought.  I seem to recall Maritime beakers being thought of as a very early form of beaker that originated in Portugal but spread thinly out elsewhere.  Most other beaker types are more restricted in distribution and later.  Maybe some day we will be able to link P312 (and perhaps U106) clades with beaker types.  As for L21 and beakers, if there is such a link it would have to be related to some sort of 2nd generation beaker network stretching from the Pyrenees, through Atlantic France to the Atlantic areas of the British Isles (and obviously penetrating inland too to a lesser degree into France and towards the Rhine. I think (in the isles anyway) the beaker phenomenon is not very well understood so any such 2nd generation beaker network remains to be clarrified.  Perhaps U152 is in some way linked to the Rhenish beakers and link to some extent to eastern and SE Britain. I like the idea of a very thin seeding of Europe by P312* and Z196* pioneers followed by localised rises of immediate downstream clades in scattered niches across Europe.  Again that would fit the beaker model.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 06:56:13 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
razyn
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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2012, 08:58:00 PM »

I like the idea of a very thin seeding of Europe by P312* and Z196* pioneers followed by localised rises of immediate downstream clades in scattered niches across Europe.  Again that would fit the beaker model.
Do you have any intellectual problem with the notion that that seeding might have been by guys who arrived in boats -- and perhaps w/o wives, cows, plows etc.?

About 35 years ago I wrote a paper exploring the concept of folk traditions among families in the river boatman trade, that were not (like most folk traditions) "rooted in the land;" but were tied to the occupations of males who routinely moved hundreds of miles from one generation to the next, while keeping at the same trades.  My examples were Delaware Valley Swedes who did that sort of thing for at least eight generations (of one surname) in America; I don't know what they did in the old country.

It has been proposed that Bell Beaker pioneers might have arrived in Portugal and other Atlantic fringe areas looking for metal ores, by early in the Bronze Age.  And those of us who are Z196* wonder -- if that happened -- whether they might have been "our" guys, arriving by water from eastern Europe (or western Asia), and probably via the Baltic and North Sea rather than the Mediterranean.  A scenario like that could make sense of the observed wide-but-thin spread of early Z196, and maybe a couple of other haplogroups. 

There are of course an infinite number of scenarios, and I don't hold a particular brief for this one; I just like it as a concept.  It lends itself to explanation of some other observed phenomena such as the relative age of Basque mtDNA vs YDNA, survival of the Mother tongue but not the Father one, and the domestication of Pottock ponies (by guys who knew how to do that, but didn't bring along their own, from the Urals or wherever).  It may also be poppycock, but there doesn't seem to be a ban on that on most of these forums.
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« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2012, 01:43:28 AM »

I have to agree with the plausibility of a boat theory widely spreading the subclades around. It's pretty much the premise of Cunliffe's theories of Bronze Age expansion of the Celts.

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2012, 08:10:34 AM »

Guys, I'm having a hard time seeing where Z196 is any more or less localized than U152 of L21.
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razyn
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« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2012, 09:36:11 AM »

I think Z196 looks differently localized, not "more" or "less" localized, whatever that means.  And of the two you mentioned, maybe has more in common with L21 than U152?  Or U106.  Anyway it's too early to tell much about it, but testing has begun and presumably the things we say about Z196 will presently be better informed.  If that also helps with things we say about Basques, or Bell Beakers, or L21, so much the better.  We only have a few little clues, so far.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2012, 11:27:04 PM »

Guys, I'm having a hard time seeing where Z196 is any more or less localized than U152 of L21.
We need an actual representative sample and frequency charts for Z196.  It might turn out it looks localized in SW France and the Pyrenees.
Just from the data I've seen in FTDNA projects, it is very lightly scattered all over the place.  There are no places where Z196 is a dominant clade or anything close to that.
However, the DNA projects are not at all representative so we really don't know.

On the other hand, you can look at frequency maps of L21, U152 and U106 and they are obviously configured into patterns where they have a signficant impact.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 11:28:32 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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samIsaack
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« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2012, 09:26:08 AM »

I'm at a Gd of 14 at 37 markers with an Isaacks member of my dna project. He is currently P312 with the deep-clade test still in the works. He has one of our more distinct markers.. 14 repeats at DYS392 and has a paper trail linking him back with the same ancestor as myself.

I've never heard of such a large genetic distance between two people who descend from the same Patriarch.. It doesn't look like he will be of the same line, but lets suppose he is. Is it completely unheard of to have so many mutations from the group modal in such a short time??

*He is an Isaacs as well.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 09:31:11 AM by samIsaack » Logged

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2012, 09:35:28 AM »

I'm at a Gd of 14 at 37 markers with an Isaacks member of my dna project. He is currently P312 with the deep-clade test still in the works. He has one of our more distinct markers.. 14 repeats at DYS392 and has a paper trail linking him back with the same ancestor as myself.

I've never heard of such a large genetic distance between two people who descend from the same Patriarch.. It doesn't look like he will be of the same line, but lets suppose he is. Is it completely unheard of to have so many mutations from the group modal in such a short time??

*He is an Isaacs as well.

It could be that the first 37 markers are an anomaly and that you will have many more matches when tested out to 67 and 111 markers. Certainly we've all had the opposite happen, where we match someone almost perfectly at 37 only to have that other person diverge greatly at 67.
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samIsaack
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« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2012, 09:56:30 AM »

I'm at a Gd of 14 at 37 markers with an Isaacks member of my dna project. He is currently P312 with the deep-clade test still in the works. He has one of our more distinct markers.. 14 repeats at DYS392 and has a paper trail linking him back with the same ancestor as myself.

I've never heard of such a large genetic distance between two people who descend from the same Patriarch.. It doesn't look like he will be of the same line, but lets suppose he is. Is it completely unheard of to have so many mutations from the group modal in such a short time??

*He is an Isaacs as well.

It could be that the first 37 markers are an anomaly and that you will have many more matches when tested out to 67 and 111 markers. Certainly we've all had the opposite happen, where we match someone almost perfectly at 37 only to have that other person diverge greatly at 67.

Yes, I've had many a match go out the window beyond the 37 mark. This individual also diverges from the group at the second location of the YCaii, with 24 repeats instead of the usual 23. Is this as you said, something that can be chalked up to an anomaly? From what I gather this marker has a relatively low mutation rate.

Thanks for your help.
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Stephen Parrish
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« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2012, 08:53:44 PM »

Sam -

What you and Rich have posted is very interesting. How many generations are between you and the mutual Isaacs ancestor whom you mentioned?

YCAII's mutation rate, per John Chandler, is 0.00123 per generation.

Please keep us posted as you receive any news of your potential Isaacs relative's Y-DNA results.

Stephen
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« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2012, 04:03:27 AM »

Sam -

What you and Rich have posted is very interesting. How many generations are between you and the mutual Isaacs ancestor whom you mentioned?

YCAII's mutation rate, per John Chandler, is 0.00123 per generation.

Please keep us posted as you receive any news of your potential Isaacs relative's Y-DNA results.

Stephen

Stephen,

We are actually quite distant as far as relation is concerned. My mdka Samuel Isaacks Sr. had two sons.. Samuel Jr and Elisha Isaacs. Most, if not all of the Isaacs in my dna group descend from Samuel Jr. I'm thinking this particular individual is either out of this Elisha line or is possibly from an unknown relative to my mdka.

My project admin. told me that the results are scheduled to be in by the end of April. I'll keep you posted on here or the P312 facebook page.


Sam
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Jason Bourgeois
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« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2012, 08:22:34 PM »

I wanted to point out this exciting new study of Y-DNA in Basque country:

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/03/basque-and-gascon-y-dna-survey.html

It includes SRY2627 at the rates of 13.6% in Bigorre (Haute-Pyrenees France), 9.1% in four regions within the Pyrenees-Atlantiques dept. in France (with 16% in Bearn), 14.8% in La Rioja Spain, and 18.5% in northern Aragon Spain.  It is under 10% in all other regions of the study.
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samIsaack
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« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2012, 08:55:17 PM »

I wanted to point out this exciting new study of Y-DNA in Basque country:

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/03/basque-and-gascon-y-dna-survey.html

It includes SRY2627 at the rates of 13.6% in Bigorre (Haute-Pyrenees France), 9.1% in four regions within the Pyrenees-Atlantiques dept. in France (with 16% in Bearn), 14.8% in La Rioja Spain, and 18.5% in northern Aragon Spain.  It is under 10% in all other regions of the study.

Thank you for posting this! I do believe 16 percent is the highest percentage for the subclade outside of Iberia. Not that its any great distance from it, but still.
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2012, 12:59:16 AM »

You're welcome.  P.S.-- I really miss DNA Forums.  What happened to that site?!
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samIsaack
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« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2012, 01:44:47 AM »

You're welcome.  P.S.-- I really miss DNA Forums.  What happened to that site?!

From what I gather, the root-admin decided to no longer support the website and essentially let it fall flat on its face. If thats the type of leadership that he displays, then I honestly wouldn't return back to his site. He was in a position to warn us about this, but decided not to. Personal issues or not, this is not the sign of a good leader or anyone I would want to associate with.

Sorry for the rant! I just really enjoyed the website and I'm very disappointed with the way it was carelessly left to die like that.
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« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2012, 11:29:03 AM »

I wanted to point out this exciting new study of Y-DNA in Basque country:
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/03/basque-and-gascon-y-dna-survey.htm/l

The blog about it looks almost more interesting than the paper, to me.  Because it appears that the blogger is keeping up with more recent SNP discoveries; whereas the paper itself (sent off to be "juried" or whatever, a couple of years ago?) doesn't, and realistically, couldn't.

I don't think Z196 has yet been mentioned in a published, juried paper... has it?  This blog at least mentions it, if sort of incidentally (in distilling the R1b-S-2 subset from the broader P312).  We have gotten past this level and are now focusing on Z209 at least, probably Z220, for the NS cluster -- which at that level still looks nearly pan-European.  If there is an Iberian branch to that side of Z196, it appears to be at a lower (and younger, if not necessarily a lot younger) level:  Z216 or Z278?  Anyway, it's getting more specific and more interesting, as we speak.
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« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2012, 12:10:43 PM »

The fate of that website is very unfortunate.  I used to check it every day and the SRY2627 thread was quite lively! 

A caveat about the blog link I posted:  the author is convinced that R1b is paleolithic, a theory which has been discarded by most current theorists on the subject.
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