Our L23 Ancestors - Svombo

[Maliclavelli]

Well,
One of my Jewish cousins recently received Geno 2.0 results. He is R-M269* and L150+ and has three new SNP mutations - PF7558, PF7562, PF7563. Are there any other Geno 2.0 results with any of these, as they may be a clue for clearing up confusion for L23- and L150+ people. Geno 2.0 marked PF7558 as his terminal SNP, so these three may or may not be phylogenetically equivalent. FTDNA does not yet offer them as advanced tests.

I have 37 marker results back now and you can see them in the ht35 project. He is most closely matched to an Ashkenazi, Pesach Arcus b.1822 Minsk/Belarus (kit 101029), a 36/37 match.

The only two people that are ungrouped in the ht35 project are now my cousin (kit N114224) and Gashi.

I found two other FTDNA kits with PF7558, PF7562, and PF7563 Geno 2.0 results with very different haplotypes than my cousin (both listed as L150+ and with DYS426=11):

N92413    R1b1a2a1 12, 25, 14, 11, 10-15, 11, 12, 12, 14, 13, 30   

N57861    R1b1a2a1 12, 25, 14, 11, 11-15, 11, 12, 12, 14, 13, 30

N114224  R1b1a2a1 12, 24, 14, 10, 11-13, 11, 12, 12, 13, 14, 29
[/quote]

Seferhabahir, good work! Your cousin (N114224) belongs clearly to the Jewish R-M269/L150+ cluster. That he matches closely Pesach Arcus for DYS385b=13 is due only to the fact that they have had a recent mutation from 14, which is the modal for all the others. The Jewish cluster remains unique and all these Jews (and many others will spring up in the future) descend from a recent guy. Of course I think that when the others will be tested they all will be L150+ and PF7558/PF7562/PF7563+. Do they descend from an Ancient Jew or are they a recent introgression?
Difficult to say for now. Certainly that no other Jew has been found so far who belongs to this cluster and with different markers values is for a recent introgression.
We have so far found with these SNPs (M269+/L150+/ PF7558/PF7562/PF7563+) an Albanian (Gashi), a Greek (N92413) and a White (N57861) of unknown origin but clearly genetically linked to the Greek, who matches in these first 12 markers with the mutation in DYS385a from 11 to 10.
These Greeks seem intermediate between Armenian and Italian clusters, and they could be also ancient, i.e. from the oldest diffusion of this haplogroup from Caucasus to Italy, difficult to say from where and to where. Certainly that these PF SNPs have been found in Sardinia could bet on an Italian origin (you know that this is my thinking), but we don’t know so far if those people were ancient Italians, Jews deported in Sardinia, if the Armenians were ancient Indo-Europeans from the Balkans or some Jewish tribe dispersed etc.
I think that in the next future we will be able to answer all these questions.

[Maliclavelli]

1   14   14   30   24   11   13   12   10,15   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

1 of 101   Athens, Greece [Greek]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe

14   13   29   24   11   13   12   10,15                                             1   >>

14   14   30   25   11   13   12   10,15                                             3   >>

14   14   30   24   11   13   13   10,15                                             3   >>

14   14   30   24   11   13   12   11,15                                             10   >>

If we exclude the haplotype with DYS393=13, we have:

1   14   13   29   24   11   13   12   10,15   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

1 of 198   Reunion [Créole Blanc]   Admixed   Africa

3   14   14   30   25   11   13   12   10,15   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

1 of 104   Romania [Romanian]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe
1 of 122   Bulgaria [Bulgarian]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe
1 of 101   Athens, Greece [Greek]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe

4   14   14   30   24   11   13   12   11,15   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   14   14   30   24   11   13   12   11,15   10   12   15   19   16   16   23   13   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   14   14   30   24   11   13   12   11,15   12   11   15   19   15   16   23   13   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   14   14   30   24   11   13   12   11,15   12   12   15   19   15   16   23   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   14   14   30   24   11   13   12   11,15   12   13   15   18   15   16   23   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   14   14   30   24   11   13   12   11,15   12   13   15   19   15   17   23   11   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   14   14   30   24   11   13   12   11,15   12   13   15   19   16   17   23   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

2 of 130   Modena, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
2 of 109   Kahramanmaras, Turkey [Turkish]   Eurasian - Altaic   Asia
1 of 90   Cuneo, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 77   Manaus, Brazil [Admixed Brazilian]   Admixed   Latin America
1 of 246   Guadalajara, Mexico [Mestizo]   Admixed   Latin America
1 of 200   Salzburg, Austria [Austrian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 411   Bydgoszcz, Poland [Polish]   Eurasian - European - Eastern European   Europe
1 of 101   Athens, Greece [Greek]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe

The most varied for its DYS438=10 is this
1   14   14   30   24   11   13   12   11,15   10   12   15   19   16   16   23   13   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

1 of 130   Modena, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe

and it belongs certainly to this cluster. Difficult to say, without DYS426, if they are R-M269 or R-L23.

[Maliclavelli]

1   14   13   29   25   10   13   12   11,14   9   13   15   19   16   16   23   13   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

1 of 384   Ravenna, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe

This other haplotype, when I was searching for the closest matches to my cousin haplotype (Federighi, ySearch MHK97, certainly a R-M269* with DYS462=12), demonstrates that DYS438=10 wasn’t by chance in Italy if we have another haplotype with 9. And my cousin has also the rare DYS448=20.

[seferhabahir]

Seferhabahir, good work! Your cousin (N114224) belongs clearly to the Jewish R-M269/L150+ cluster. That he matches closely Pesach Arcus for DYS385b=13 is due only to the fact that they have had a recent mutation from 14, which is the modal for all the others.

Note there is also a difference at Y-GATA-H4 (value is 9 for my cousin and Arcus, while for rest of the cluster it is 10). Perhaps this is more significant than the DYS385b mutation. A value of 9 seems rare in the ht35 project. Gashi has 11 for this STR. Note there is Joseph Kohen (71693) who is also DYS385b=13 and Y-GATA-H4=9, and so therefore probably closely related.

[Maliclavelli]

Seferhabahir, good work! Your cousin (N114224) belongs clearly to the Jewish R-M269/L150+ cluster. That he matches closely Pesach Arcus for DYS385b=13 is due only to the fact that they have had a recent mutation from 14, which is the modal for all the others.

Note there is also a difference at Y-GATA-H4 (value is 9 for my cousin and Arcus, while for rest of the cluster it is 10). Perhaps this is more significant than the DYS385b mutation. A value of 9 seems rare in the ht35 project. Gashi has 11 for this STR. Note there is Joseph Kohen (71693) who is also DYS385b=13 and Y-GATA-H4=9, and so therefore probably closely related.

12   24   14   10   11-13   11   12   12   13   14   29   17   9-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   15-15-16-16   11   9   19-23   17   16   18   17   37-38   12   12
Sefarhabahir cousin
12   24   14   10   11-13   11   12   12   13   14   29   17   9-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   15-15-16-16   11   9   19-23   17   16   18   17   37-38   13   12   
Pesach
12   24   14   10   11-14   11   12   12   13   14   29   17   9-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   15-15-15-16   12   10   19-23   16   16   17   18   38-39   12   12   

12   24   14   10   11-14   11   12   12   13   14   29   17   9-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   15-15-16-16   11   10   19-23   16   16   16   17   38-38   12   12

12   24   14   10   11-14   11   12   12   13   14   29   17   9-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   15-15-16-16   11   10   19-23   17   16   17   17   38-39   12   12

12   24   14   10   11-14   11   12   12   13   14   29   17   9-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   15-15-16-16   11   10   19-23   17   16   17   17   38-40   12   12   

12   24   14   10   11-14   11   12   12   13   14   29   17   9-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   15-15-16-16   11   10   19-23   17   16   18   17   39-39   13   12

12   24   14   10   11-14   11   12   12   14   14   30   17   9-10   11   11   24   15   19   29   15-15-16-16   11   10   19-23   17   16   17   17   38-38   12   12

12   24   14   10   11-14   11   12   12   14   14   30   17   9-10   11   11   24   15   19   29   15-15-16-16   11   10   19-23   17   16   18   17   37-38   12   12   

12   24   14   10   11-14   11   12   13   13   14   29   16   9-10   11   11   25   15   19   29   15-15-16-16   11   10   19-23   17   16   16   18   38-40   12   12

12   24   14   9   11-14   11   12   12   13   14   29   17   9-9   11   11   25   15   19   30   15-15-16-16   11   10   19-23   17   16   17   17   38-38   13   12

12   25   14   11   11-15   11   12   12   12   14   28   16   9-9   11   11   25   16   19   32   15-15-16-17   11   11   19-23   17   14   18   18   35-38   12   12
Fiozzo

I understand that for you it is difficult to accept that your Y is introgressed from elsewhere and I have said before that we do know next what has happened, but probably you don’t doubt now that your Y is European after the discover of Z251 in an Irish man. If you look at the haplotypes above, you can see that all the Jews belong to the same haplotype with DYS392=14 and their mutations are very recent. Probably the origin should be searched in the last haplotype, which has many mutations and is far linked to these haplotypes. He is Fiozzo from Calabria (Italy) and Italy has many different haplotypes of R-M269*.

[seferhabahir]

I understand that for you it is difficult to accept that your Y is introgressed from elsewhere and I have said before that we do know next what has happened, but probably you don’t doubt now that your Y is European after the discover of Z251 in an Irish man.

Sorry, no. I am not convinced about anything concerning the origins of Z251. It appears to be almost as old as L21 and DF13, so it is not necessarily telling me something new yet. L21 and DF13 are found in Irish men. So what is new? Yes, an introgression is possible, but I don't see the evidence that it happened near the time of the most recent common ancestor of the Baltic Cluster. I am not predisposed toward any specific answer on this (even though you appear to think so), and I think more data is needed.

[Maliclavelli]

On the other way around, I have always thought to you like an open person, but I am seeing that also for you it is difficult. What should we think about R-L21? Even Italy gets a few samples, and I have said many times in the past that the most part of them had a foreign origin. If it is born probably in France from some R-P312* come from South (South France, Iberia etc.) and has its centre in the Isles, should we think that your haplotype is the remnant of its origin in Middle East? Someone has thought and written this, but all seems to become ridiculous.
Of course I think that the R-P312* in Iberia came from Italy like all the upstream subclades, and this is my theory, and you can see that many have snobbed it and continue to do, but I do scientific analyses and am waiting willing for the next data, are they ancient DNA or other SNPs.

If you look at the mutations of the haplotypes I posted above, you can understand what has happened:

12   24   14   10   11-13   11   12   12   13   14   29   17   9-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   15-15-16-16   11   9   19-23   17   16   18   17   37-38   12   12
Sefarhabahir cousin
12   24   14   10   11-13   11   12   12   13   14   29   17   9-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   15-15-16-16   11   9   19-23   17   16   18   17   37-38   13   12   
Pesach
12   24   14   10   11-14   11   12   12   13   14   29   17   9-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   15-15-15-16   12   10   19-23   16   16   17   18   38-39   12   12   

12   24   14   10   11-14   11   12   12   13   14   29   17   9-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   15-15-16-16   11   10   19-23   16   16   16   17   38-38   12   12

12   24   14   10   11-14   11   12   12   13   14   29   17   9-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   15-15-16-16   11   10   19-23   17   16   17   17   38-39   12   12

12   24   14   10   11-14   11   12   12   13   14   29   17   9-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   15-15-16-16   11   10   19-23   17   16   17   17   38-40   12   12   

12   24   14   10   11-14   11   12   12   13   14   29   17   9-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   15-15-16-16   11   10   19-23   17   16   18   17   39-39   13 12

12   24   14   10   11-14   11   12   12   14   14   30   17   9-10   11   11   24   15   19   29   15-15-16-16   11   10   19-23   17   16   17   17   38-38   12   12

12   24   14   10   11-14   11   12   12   14   14   30   17   9-10   11   11   24   15   19   29   15-15-16-16   11   10   19-23   17   16   18   17   37-38   12   12   

12   24   14   10   11-14   11   12   13   13   14   29   16   9-10   11   11   25   15   19   29   15-15-16-16   11   10   19-23   17   16   16   18   38-40   12   12

12   24   14   9   11-14   11   12   12   13   14   29   17   9-9   11   11   25   15   19   30   15-15-16-16   11   10   19-23   17   16   17   17   38-38   13   12

12   25   14   11   11-15   11   12   12   12 14   28   16   9-9   11   11   25   16   19   32   15-15-16-17   11   11   19-23   17   14   18   18   35-38   12   12
Fiozzo

[Maliclavelli]

Seferhabahir, good work! Your cousin (N114224) belongs clearly to the Jewish R-M269/L150+ cluster. That he matches closely Pesach Arcus for DYS385b=13 is due only to the fact that they have had a recent mutation from 14, which is the modal for all the others.

Note there is also a difference at Y-GATA-H4 (value is 9 for my cousin and Arcus, while for rest of the cluster it is 10). Perhaps this is more significant than the DYS385b mutation. A value of 9 seems rare in the ht35 project. Gashi has 11 for this STR. Note there is Joseph Kohen (71693) who is also DYS385b=13 and Y-GATA-H4=9, and so therefore probably closely related.

I am seeing that Lifshitz is always put amongst the R-L23 in the "ht 35 FTDNA Project", even though he is from his Geno 2.0 negative for L23 and any other SNPs at the same level, he is clearly R-M269/L150+ and his markers values are clearly those of the R-M269/L150* Jewish cluster, practically all the same haplotype. Why?
Don't the administrators understand this?

[Maliclavelli]

Another of this cluster is this:

N106699   Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1 12 24 14 10 11-14 11 12 12 13 14 29

[Maliclavelli]

Another of this cluster is this:

N106699   Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1 12 24 14 10 11-14 11 12 12 13 14 29

This guy has been assigned to R-L150+ only for these tests:
N106699       R1b1a2a1    R-L150   L150+, L51-, P312-, U106-
It lacks L23, L49.1.
I think it is a scandalous, by a genetic point of view, that this happened and continues to happen, like it is a scandalous that in the Jewish R1b Project there are two R-L150+: one is clearly this cluster R-M269/L150+ (with DYS426=11) and the other R-L23/L150+ (with DYS426=12).

Another thing to ask seferhabahir is that it would be interesting to know the origin of this person: there aren’t on all the Web any links to him, except the two of the project..

[seferhabahir]

Another thing to ask seferhabahir is that it would be interesting to know the origin of this person: there aren’t on all the Web any links to him, except the two of the project..

I don't know the origin of N106699.

I'll see if I can convince the admins of the ht35 project to move my cousin into the "a. R1b1a2: L23- L51- L11-" with Pesach Arcus where he no doubt belongs. As to origin, I don't know, but somewhere in the Pale. My cousin's ancestor worked and died in Moscow but probably moved there from a Jewish community in the Minsk area (based on a known Y-DNA/surname match) during the time of Alexander II when some Jews were allowed to reside in Moscow.

[seferhabahir]

I'll see if I can convince the admins of the ht35 project to move my cousin into the "a. R1b1a2: L23- L51- L11-" with Pesach Arcus where he no doubt belongs.

All right, here's further proof. Kit 126775 (in both the ht35 and the Jewish R1b projects) came back with Geno 2.0 results as L23- L150+ PF7558+ PF7562+ PF7563+ and this kit is a GD of 7 from my cousin at 37 markers. With the new requirements, a GD of 7 at 67 would be enough for ISOGG tree inclusion.

This means there is definitely a peer group to L23 under L150.1 identified by PF7558+ PF7562+ PF7563+. It is probable (as discussed above) that the Jewish M269xL23 cluster would be in this new peer group and that L150 (problematic as it is) should really be above L23 in the ISOGG tree. Someone has asked Thomas Krahn to see about developing primers for PF7558, PF7562, and PF7563 so we can have some other kits test for them.

[Maliclavelli]

I have seen that , finally, the administrators of the “ht 35 FTDNA Project” decided to form this cluster:

_a. R1b1a2: L150.?+ L23- L51- L11- (also possibly PF7558+, PF7562+ & PF7563+)
N114224   Aleksandr Lifschitz, b. 1840, Russian Empire   Belarus   R1b1a2a1

226720   Dov Ber Fabrikant b.c. 1810 Vetka, Belarus   Belarus   R1b1a2a1

126775   Moishe Bardiga, b. abt 1740 Berestechko, Ukraine   Ukraine   R1b1a2a1    

E16492   Hysen Gashi, b. 19xx   Albania

N92413       Greece   R1b1a2a1    

[Maliclavelli]

I have seen that , finally, the administrators of the “ht 35 FTDNA Project” decided to form this cluster:

_a. R1b1a2: L150.?+ L23- L51- L11- (also possibly PF7558+, PF7562+ & PF7563+)
N114224   Aleksandr Lifschitz, b. 1840, Russian Empire   Belarus   R1b1a2a1

226720   Dov Ber Fabrikant b.c. 1810 Vetka, Belarus   Belarus   R1b1a2a1

126775   Moishe Bardiga, b. abt 1740 Berestechko, Ukraine   Ukraine   R1b1a2a1    

E16492   Hysen Gashi, b. 19xx   Albania

N92413       Greece   R1b1a2a1    

F2302 isn't so stable, but it is always a SNP and may be useful. Probably its status changes not so frequently (from G to A and vice versa).

So far the persons of the Jewish cluster tested (N114224 and 126775) are + and the two persons not Jews (N92413 and N57861) are -.

We'll see next if this will be confirmed.