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Author Topic: G-L497+ and the Etruscans  (Read 1068 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: August 31, 2011, 05:25:44 PM »

Ray Banks, on Rootsweb, informs us about the last researches on G-L497+. It has been found on a Tuscan of the 1000 Genomes Project (the only Tuscan G out of 50) and it doesn’t exist in the Eastern Mediterranean but in Italy and in South Germany. Now also a sample from Lemnos has been found L497+. Which the conclusions? Probably this haplotype is linked to Etruscans and Rhaetians, and Banks is speaking of a link of Rhaetic with Mesopotamia, of the book of the named Toth and Brunner (if he knew Italian could speak also of Giovanni Semerano!), and wonders Bank not finding this “scholars” on wikipaedia!
I am speaking from many years of the link Rhaetians/Etruscans/Camuns, of an Italian Refugium mostly of R1b, but also other haplogroups are in Italy from very ancient times, and how many times I have spoken of the two centres of irradiation of G from Italy: Sardinia and North Italy. G2a3b1a2 may easily be born in Italy and expanded from there like other haplogroups.
And don’t say anymore that Etruscans came from Asia Minor! I have demonstrated ad abundantiam that it is the other way around: Lemnians had come from Etruria, and probably this G demonstrates this. Why it isn’t found in Eastern Mediterranean, thought the place of origin of hg. G?

The 1000 Genomes Project is giving an unexpected contribute to my theories. Before the 3 R-U152* out of 4 (Tuscany and Italy are the place of origin of this haplogroup), now G. And don’t forget that amongst those 50 Tuscans there were a 30% of J1 and J2, and Tuscany and Italy get always also the most ancient samples of any haplogroups.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2011, 04:48:25 PM »

It seems that the theory of the Etruscan G-L497+ depends from the Greek of Lemnos Chletsos, even thought he has an haplotype with some oddities, but these are the closest to him on YHRD:

15 12 29 21 10 11 14 14,16 4 >>
16 12 29 21 10 11 14 14,17 2 >>
15 12 28 21 10 11 14 14,17 2 >>
15 12 29 21 10 11 14 13,17 2 >>
15 12 29 21 10 11 14 15,17 2 >>
15 13 30 21 10 11 14 14,17 1 >>
15 12 29 21 10 11 15 14,17 1 >>
14 12 29 21 10 11 14 14,17 0 >>

3 15 12 29 21 10 11 14 14,16 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 12 29 21 10 11 14 14,16 11 11 15 21 15 17 21 11 >>
1 of 79 Western Africa [African] African - Sub-Saharan Africa
1 of 35 Salta, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
1 of 1277 United States [African American] African - Afro-American North America
1 of 72 Azerbaijan [Azerbaijani] Eurasian - Caucasian Asia

1 16 12 29 21 10 11 14 14,17 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 16 12 29 21 10 11 14 14,17 10 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 103 Santiago de Compostela, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 357 Mexico City, Mexico [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America

1 15 12 28 21 10 11 14 14,17 10 12 16 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 12 28 21 10 11 14 14,17 10 12 16 22 17 16 22 11 >>
1 of 1079 Australia [European] Eurasian - European - Western European Oceania / Australia
1 of 216 Southern Moravia, Czech Republic [Czech] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe

1 15 12 29 21 10 11 14 13,17 10 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 12 29 21 10 11 14 13,17 10 12 16 23 15 17 21 11 >>
1 of 208 Sao Paulo State, Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America
1 of 324 Chihuahua, Mexico [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America

1 15 12 29 21 10 11 14 15,17 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 12 29 21 10 11 14 15,17 10 11 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 427 Córdoba, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
1 of 73 Maryland, United States [African American] African - Afro-American North America

1 15 13 30 21 10 11 14 14,17 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 218 Illinois, United States [African American] African - Afro-American North America

1 15 12 29 21 10 11 15 14,17 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 222 Latium, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

His haplotype at the level of the 7 YHRD markers can be confused with some E1b1 and perhaps other haplogroups or other subclades of G. Certainly is a G the last sample from Latium and matches many other Italians, even though all with DYS388=12 and not 13, but probably they too are G2a3b1:
Berardi (62QUH)
Agostini (DS3GB)
Lucchetti (PHZVV)
Galloni (PSF6M)
Ambroselli (QF66W, T9W9V).
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 10:49:45 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2011, 12:34:53 PM »

Ray Banks says on 23andme: “Finally the L497 group has some hints of an Etruscan origin. This is much too complicated to discuss here, but we have a L497 sample being tested for 67 markers now from the Etruscan-language family island of Lemnos which has been the granary for Istanbul. This sample seems to pre-date the European L497 based on available markers. The Etruscans are currently thought to be Near Eastern in origin based on their animals and other evidence. They moved to Italy in the Italian period before the Roman Empire”.

Only not knowing Etruscan history and not having probably read before any of my thousands of postings permits you to continue to say similar nonsense.
1)   Etruscans were linked to Rhaetians and Camuns and were amongst the most ancient Italians.
2)   The language of Lemnos is clearly due to Etruscan mariners come from Italy.
3)   Hg.G, as was demonstrated by a map in Yunusbaev 2006, has two (or three) centres of irradiation: a) the central shore of Caucasus along the Black Sea, b) isle of Sardinia and c) South-West Asia Minor, a little far from the shore.

This demonstrates clearly that this haplogroup was diffused by seafarers and the fact that Caucasus had the highest frequency doesn’t say much about its origin, which could be also in Sardinia and Western Europe and not where this haplogroup is today more diffused. Its presence in Italy and in Europe is very ancient, like the same Ötzi is demonstrating, and also the Treilles findings due to the Neolithic Italian expansion to West, and G-L497+, clearly due to the Neolithic Italian expansion from the Alps to Central North Europe till the British Isles. This haplogroup is by its origin linked to metallurgy and before probably to the commerce of obsidian as it has been demonstrated by the paper cited by Dienekes on his blog: 15000 years ago in the Aegean Sea. The myth of Jason could be a remembering of this  route to the Colchis, and that the other sources of obsidian in the ancient world were the volcanic Isles north of Sicily could be a more ancient link of this haplogroup with Italy, which has also today some ancient G1. Anyway what we do mean like Middle East, the Semitic zone under Asia Minor, has ever been at the periphery of this haplogroup.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2012, 11:54:49 AM »

Ray Banks writes: “With regard to the two SNPs found in the 1000 Genomes Project in L497 men, these will have limited coverage based on everything we now know. Z1901 was found only in a man from Tuscany. We have additional results for Z1901 and they are all negative. It may be confined to the Tuscany area L497 men. I earlier inventoried all the Italian L497 samples and we then tested two Italians, but unfortunately I can't identify a single man in the project who is from n.w. Italy. The other SNP is Z725. We know from 1000 Genomes that most L497 men will have the Z725 mutation. And the L497 samples we have back are all positive for Z725. We included in the L725 testing Mr. Chletsos from the island of Lemnos off Turkey because he has some odd values in his first 12 markers and might be from an early branch. But he, too, is L725+”

What does it mean this? That the Tuscan in 1000 Genomes Project is the ancestor, and all the others, Chletsos inclusive, are derived. So far Ted Kandell lost his bet with me, and I foresee that all others will do.

P.S. Tuscany isn't in N-W Italy, but in Central one.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 11:56:43 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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