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Author Topic: R-L21 and Lactase Persistence rs4988235  (Read 2891 times)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2012, 01:58:33 PM »

This nice Lactase graphic link was posted on Rootweb

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Laktoseintoleranz-1.svg

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2012, 06:02:04 PM »

This nice Lactase graphic link was posted on Rootweb

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Laktoseintoleranz-1.svg
Do you think there is anything to my observation of the map?

I ask why is the US light (0-20%) like NW Europe but Canada is slightly darker (more intolerant 20-40%)   ?????

French, English, Scots-Irish settled in both Canada and the US. Perhaps the difference should be the Spanish incomers but then US should be darker (more intolerant) than Canada.

The only thing simple that I came up with is that I don't think German input into Canada is very great, nor in Mexico.   Germany is also right in the center of the NW Europe light (0-20%) area. Although not necessarily the origin, but is Germany at the heart of the expansion of lactose tolerance?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 06:03:24 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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MHammers
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« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2012, 06:06:39 PM »

This nice Lactase graphic link was posted on Rootweb

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Laktoseintoleranz-1.svg
Do you think there is anything to my observation of the map?

I ask why is the US light (0-20%) like NW Europe but Canada is slightly darker (more intolerant 20-40%)   ?????

French, English, Scots-Irish settled in both Canada and the US. Perhaps the difference should be the Spanish incomers but then US should be darker (more intolerant) than Canada.

The only thing simple that I came up with is that I don't think German input into Canada is very great, nor in Mexico.   Germany is also right in the center of the NW Europe light (0-20%) area. Although not necessarily the origin, but is Germany at the heart of the expansion of lactose tolerance?

Maybe, there is a higher proportion of Asians in Canada causing the spike.
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rms2
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« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2012, 08:31:20 PM »

This nice Lactase graphic link was posted on Rootweb

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Laktoseintoleranz-1.svg
Do you think there is anything to my observation of the map?

I ask why is the US light (0-20%) like NW Europe but Canada is slightly darker (more intolerant 20-40%)   ?????

French, English, Scots-Irish settled in both Canada and the US. Perhaps the difference should be the Spanish incomers but then US should be darker (more intolerant) than Canada.

The only thing simple that I came up with is that I don't think German input into Canada is very great, nor in Mexico.   Germany is also right in the center of the NW Europe light (0-20%) area. Although not necessarily the origin, but is Germany at the heart of the expansion of lactose tolerance?

Maybe, there is a higher proportion of Asians in Canada causing the spike.

Canada, having a much smaller population than the USA in the first place, may also have a higher frequency of "First Nations" people (Amerindians), and that would tend to raise the level of lactose intolerance, too.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 08:34:29 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2012, 08:33:29 PM »

This nice Lactase graphic link was posted on Rootweb

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Laktoseintoleranz-1.svg
Do you think there is anything to my observation of the map?

I ask why is the US light (0-20%) like NW Europe but Canada is slightly darker (more intolerant 20-40%)   ?????

French, English, Scots-Irish settled in both Canada and the US. Perhaps the difference should be the Spanish incomers but then US should be darker (more intolerant) than Canada.

The only thing simple that I came up with is that I don't think German input into Canada is very great, nor in Mexico.   Germany is also right in the center of the NW Europe light (0-20%) area. Although not necessarily the origin, but is Germany at the heart of the expansion of lactose tolerance?

Germany's LP rate is actually lower than that of the British Isles and Scandinavia, so I don't think German input would be the difference.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2012, 08:39:48 PM »

This nice Lactase graphic link was posted on Rootweb

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Laktoseintoleranz-1.svg
Do you think there is anything to my observation of the map?

I ask why is the US light (0-20%) like NW Europe but Canada is slightly darker (more intolerant 20-40%)   ?????

French, English, Scots-Irish settled in both Canada and the US. Perhaps the difference should be the Spanish incomers but then US should be darker (more intolerant) than Canada.

The only thing simple that I came up with is that I don't think German input into Canada is very great, nor in Mexico.   Germany is also right in the center of the NW Europe light (0-20%) area. Although not necessarily the origin, but is Germany at the heart of the expansion of lactose tolerance?

Maybe, there is a higher proportion of Asians in Canada causing the spike.
I was surprised to see that the Asian percentages were that high in Canada.

I just checked some Wikipedia Demographics of Canada and the total visible minority population for year 2006 was at 16.20% and adding Italians 4%, lets say, and there is about 20% knowing not all will be intolerate but this is close to the percentage range. (South Asian, Chinese, Black, Filipino, Latin American, Arab, Southeast Asian, West Asian, Korean and Japanese)

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2012, 08:44:36 PM »


Canada, having a much smaller population than the USA in the first place, may also have a higher frequency of "First Nations" people (Amerindians), and that would tend to raise the level of lactose intolerance, too.

Checking the 2006 census counted a total Canadian Aboriginal population of 1,172,790 (3.75%) which includes 698,025 First Nations (2.23%), 389,785 M├ętis (1.25%), and 50,480 Inuit (0.16%). Percentages are calculated as a proportion of the total number of respondents (31,241,030)

So almost 4% that could be added.

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2012, 03:15:51 PM »

I notice on rootsweb that this is being discussed and interestingly Anatole, the Tsar of R1a, states that he believes that LP arose in a population rich in R1b rather than R1a.  However, as is well known he very much links IE languages with R1a.  The latter is another issue to debate in another thread but I think he may be right that LP arose among an R1b-rich population.  It actually makes a lot of sense because cattle dairying does seem to have arisen in NW Anatolia and moved from there into the Bulgaria area first.  Anatolia is rich in R1b and it seems very likely the steppes peoples got their dairying element from the early dairying area to their immediate west and south.  There is certainly not a great correlation between R1a and LP.  However, the real factor in LP rates is probably simply that it was selected for in areas where cattle milk drinking was a huge advantage because the land was not suited to arable to the same degree. 

Basically there are two aspects to this - the spread of the gene and the degree of selection.  The degree of selection is clearly based on how important milk was in any given area.  However, it still had to spread and it is interesting to speculate how it and when it spread.  Milk drinking spread all the way to Britain as early as 4000BC so (if the variance dating is correct) then cattle milk drinking may have spread before R1b is normally dated to.  You could say LP was not present at the time but its hard to imagine Neolithic folks without LP swigging away a milk and running for the trees as the milk took its toll.  Maybe cheese and butter making got around the lack of LP and real LP developed later among groups who liked their milk fresh and neat.  It does strike me that actually drinking milk without processing it would be most advantageous among highly mobile people though so perhaps it came into its own and LP became much more of an advantage in the later Neolithic when it is often thought that mobility became more common.  That mobility may have been an economic change rather than migration.  However, I dont think anyone has the answers on this as yet. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2012, 03:44:41 PM »

...and this recent paper http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000491 does go into it in a lot of detail.
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rms2
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« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2012, 08:24:33 PM »

This paper provides more evidence that lactase persistence may have first arisen among R1b populations. The Fulani of West Africa have the European version of LP (T-13910 aka A-rs4988235) at a frequency of 37%, and they are known for their correspondingly high level of R1b-V88.

Strange that they would be both R1b-V88 and have an unusually high rate of the European version of lactase persistence.

Seems more than a coincidence to me.
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MHammers
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« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2012, 10:26:26 PM »

This paper provides more evidence that lactase persistence may have first arisen among R1b populations. The Fulani of West Africa have the European version of LP (T-13910 aka A-rs4988235) at a frequency of 37%, and they are known for their correspondingly high level of R1b-V88.

Strange that they would be both R1b-V88 and have an unusually high rate of the European version of lactase persistence.

Seems more than a coincidence to me.

Thanks Rich,  Do you know if there is any data on LP for Caucasian populations?
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rms2
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« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2012, 05:34:45 PM »

This paper provides more evidence that lactase persistence may have first arisen among R1b populations. The Fulani of West Africa have the European version of LP (T-13910 aka A-rs4988235) at a frequency of 37%, and they are known for their correspondingly high level of R1b-V88.

Strange that they would be both R1b-V88 and have an unusually high rate of the European version of lactase persistence.

Seems more than a coincidence to me.

Thanks Rich,  Do you know if there is any data on LP for Caucasian populations?

Not that I know of right offhand. I seem to remember something I heard of sometime back, but I can't recall what it was.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2012, 09:48:28 AM »

This paper provides more evidence that lactase persistence may have first arisen among R1b populations. The Fulani of West Africa have the European version of LP (T-13910 aka A-rs4988235) at a frequency of 37%, and they are known for their correspondingly high level of R1b-V88.

Strange that they would be both R1b-V88 and have an unusually high rate of the European version of lactase persistence.

Seems more than a coincidence to me.

What do archaeolgists and historians have to say about the origin and timing of the Fulani?
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rms2
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« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2012, 07:20:10 PM »

This paper provides more evidence that lactase persistence may have first arisen among R1b populations. The Fulani of West Africa have the European version of LP (T-13910 aka A-rs4988235) at a frequency of 37%, and they are known for their correspondingly high level of R1b-V88.

Strange that they would be both R1b-V88 and have an unusually high rate of the European version of lactase persistence.

Seems more than a coincidence to me.

What do archaeolgists and historians have to say about the origin and timing of the Fulani?

Honestly, I don't know. I seem to remember Spencer Wells saying they got to Africa by way of a "back migration" from SW Asia, but I am not even sure he was the one who said that. By "back migration" I guess he meant that he believes all human beings originated in Africa, so anyone who goes there who wasn't born there is a "back migrator".

I have my doubts about the whole "out of Africa" thing myself, but it's not something I worry about.
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