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Author Topic: R1b and Have "Adygei" in Population Finder?  (Read 3095 times)
rms2
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« on: February 11, 2012, 01:26:49 PM »

I am curious how many of you R1b guys who have done the Family Finder test got the Adygei people as one of your matches in Population Finder.

The Adygei live in the Caucasus and are also known as Circassians. What is interesting to me is the fact that their homeland is situated around Maykop, the center of the famous Maykop Culture. I am not saying there is an ancient connection there; I am just curious if a lot of us have that Adygei result or if it's just me.

If you want to talk Family Finder results, I would be glad to do it. WFN has a Family Finder forum here: http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?board=2302.0
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 01:27:15 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike23
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2012, 03:59:36 PM »

I have Adygei.
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2012, 08:48:09 PM »

I have Adygei.

Me too. It may mean nothing, but I am wondering how many R1b guys got that Adygei result included in their Population Finder thingy. The possible Maykop connection is what intrigues me.
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Jdean
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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2012, 09:09:34 PM »

Yep me too.

I'm pretty solidly Brit, I think ??

There are a few people with a 100% Orcadian results, whatever that means, I'd be interested in knowing what DIYDodecad has to say when their results are thrown at it ?
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2012, 09:23:43 PM »

Yep me too.

I'm pretty solidly Brit, I think ??

There are a few people with a 100% Orcadian results, whatever that means, I'd be interested in knowing what DIYDodecad has to say when their results are thrown at it ?

I've looked at quite a few Population Finder results. From what I have seen, almost all the British Isles guys have results like ours: 90-something percent Orcadian (Western European), with the remainder some combination of Middle Eastern. I wonder what accounts for it.

I got 95.37% Western European (Orcadian) and 4.63% Middle Eastern (Palestinian, Adygei, Bedouin, Bedouin South, Druze, Iranian, Jewish, Mozabite), with a margin of error of plus or minus 1.76%.

My first impression, since I am pretty sure my ancestry is solidly European, was that I may have some Jewish ancestors who at some point converted to Christianity and blended in with the rest of the Christian population of the British Isles.

But it could be anything, I guess.
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Jdean
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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2012, 10:03:43 PM »


I've looked at quite a few Population Finder results. From what I have seen, almost all the British Isles guys have results like ours: 90-something percent Orcadian (Western European), with the remainder some combination of Middle Eastern. I wonder what accounts for it.

I got 95.37% Western European (Orcadian) and 4.63% Middle Eastern (Palestinian, Adygei, Bedouin, Bedouin South, Druze, Iranian, Jewish, Mozabite), with a margin of error of plus or minus 1.76%.

My first impression, since I am pretty sure my ancestry is solidly European, was that I may have some Jewish ancestors who at some point converted to Christianity and blended in with the rest of the Christian population of the British Isles.

But it could be anything, I guess.

I've been spending the last few weeks chasing my mothers line down, I've been putting it off because I knew it was pretty solidly Welsh and I was most likely gong to run into a lot of very common names. So far I've got three Davieses, two Morgans, two Parries and a bunch of other Welsh names.

I'm trying to get as far as 6 generations on all lines where I can (not always possible) and I'm almost there, I'd be very surprised if I ran across something as exotic as Jewish or even just continental European now !!

I suspect the large amount of people with Middle Eastern matches is most likely got more to do with the lack of reasonable samples for the UK, the Orkneys isn't exactly representative, but who knows :)

We've a few people in the Z18 project who do have a 100% population Finder result for the UK though.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 10:30:20 PM by Jdean » Logged

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Mark Jost
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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2012, 11:18:24 PM »

I am:

Europe (Western European) Orcadian 93.81% ±1.75%

Middle East  Palestinian, Adygei, Bedouin, Bedouin South, Druze, Iranian, Jewish, Mozabite 6.19% ±1.75%

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2012, 09:02:53 AM »

I am:

Europe (Western European) Orcadian 93.81% ±1.75%

Middle East  Palestinian, Adygei, Bedouin, Bedouin South, Druze, Iranian, Jewish, Mozabite 6.19% ±1.75%



And that is the typical British Isles result. As a project admin, I get to see them, and I have seen a lot of them. Had it not been for that, I would have been startled by my own result, which you can see from a couple posts above is very much like yours.

I think the Middle Eastern part is cool. Gives us something to ponder.
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rms2
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« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2012, 09:08:28 AM »


I've looked at quite a few Population Finder results. From what I have seen, almost all the British Isles guys have results like ours: 90-something percent Orcadian (Western European), with the remainder some combination of Middle Eastern. I wonder what accounts for it.

I got 95.37% Western European (Orcadian) and 4.63% Middle Eastern (Palestinian, Adygei, Bedouin, Bedouin South, Druze, Iranian, Jewish, Mozabite), with a margin of error of plus or minus 1.76%.

My first impression, since I am pretty sure my ancestry is solidly European, was that I may have some Jewish ancestors who at some point converted to Christianity and blended in with the rest of the Christian population of the British Isles. This probably occurred so long ago that we won't find it in our paper trails.

But it could be anything, I guess.

I've been spending the last few weeks chasing my mothers line down, I've been putting it off because I knew it was pretty solidly Welsh and I was most likely gong to run into a lot of very common names. So far I've got three Davieses, two Morgans, two Parries and a bunch of other Welsh names.

I'm trying to get as far as 6 generations on all lines where I can (not always possible) and I'm almost there, I'd be very surprised if I ran across something as exotic as Jewish or even just continental European now !!

I suspect the large amount of people with Middle Eastern matches is most likely got more to do with the lack of reasonable samples for the UK, the Orkneys isn't exactly representative, but who knows :)

We've a few people in the Z18 project who do have a 100% population Finder result for the UK though.


You are probably right, but Europe had a large Jewish population, and many of them converted to Christianity and were assimilated into the general Christian population. That could account for the small percentage of Middle Eastern autosomal dna so many of us are seeing. This would have occurred so long ago that we won't find it in our paper trails.

Of course, it could also come from Roman soldiers posted in Britain, from Phoenician or Syrian traders who settled there, etc.

It could also be due to the fact that those Middle Eastern populations resemble Europeans or that Europe was populated from the Middle East originally.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 09:11:16 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mark Jost
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« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2012, 01:09:15 PM »

I am:

Europe (Western European) Orcadian 93.81% ±1.75%

Middle East  Palestinian, Adygei, Bedouin, Bedouin South, Druze, Iranian, Jewish, Mozabite 6.19% ±1.75%



And that is the typical British Isles result. As a project admin, I get to see them, and I have seen a lot of them. Had it not been for that, I would have been startled by my own result, which you can see from a couple posts above is very much like yours.

I think the Middle Eastern part is cool. Gives us something to ponder.

Doug McDonald previously stated that there is a set of individuals that have a small percentage of Middle East which was normal. As we have understood that the Mediterranean folk have a sizable percentage of middle east as a component. In McDonald’s basic three panels, the third panel
they typically measure 4.5% Mideastern and 8% S. Asian. Actual people from South Asia or the Mideast always test at least 15% European. 

I was one who had the chance to upload my 23andme data to Decodeme  and this platform has some of my smaller 3 cM pieces as Druze.

Since FtDNA has a Population Finder module, McDonald stated, “(disclaimer: I wrote the code)” which he posted over at DNA-forums.org.  Explains the concept here:
http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/13080-population-finder-results/page__view__findpost__p__300630

McDonald, later after adding more populations to his process, took a look at my data again and told me my ratios have now changed:

"You are firmly planted as BASICALLY northwest Europe, represented best by Orkney in our dataset, and secondarily by France, you do not fit that perfectly. You have a rather small additional component, and while you fit modestly passably as Orkney/Basque, Orkney/French is much better and Orkney/Italian (Lombardy) is best. Ratio is Orkney 82% and Lombardy at 18%."

Steve, have you sent your data to Doug yet?
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2012, 06:29:32 PM »

. . .

Steve, have you sent your data to Doug yet?


As a matter of fact, I did, and I just got an email from him. Here is what he wrote:

Quote
Most likely fit is 100% English (Western Europe)

which is 100% total Europe


The location error = 0.005191 with 1 group

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,

most likely at the top

English= 1.000


I sent him the raw data and did not mention anything about FTDNA's Population Finder stuff. Apparently Dr. McDonald did not see any Middle Eastern or anything else that wasn't just noise.

So now I am wondering where FTDNA got the 4.63% Middle Eastern thing.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 06:35:29 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2012, 07:21:58 PM »

I emailed Dr. McDonald again and asked him how I got that 4.63% Middle East result. I have already received a reply.

Here is what I wrote and how Dr. McDonald responded:

Quote

[My email]

Thank you very much, Dr, McDonald. I really appreciate your taking the time to help me.

Here is what FTDNA says on my Population Finder page:

Europe (Western European) Orcadian  95.37% ±1.76%
Middle East  Palestinian, Adygei, Bedouin, Bedouin South, Druze, Iranian, Jewish, Mozabite  4.63% ±1.76%

Sorry to trouble you further, but can you tell why they gave me that 4.63% Middle Eastern result? As far as I know, my family is European in origin, and, but for two exceptions (one French, one Dutch), all of the surnames in my pedigree are from the British Isles.

Thanks again!


[Dr. McDonald's response]

yes ...  it simply pushes your average position on the map just a bit east ...

i.e. France and Holland are east of England, and for some reason a little

bit pf something farther east substitutes for a large amount less far east.

This happens a lot.

 
Doug McDonald


So, apparently I am just a plain vanilla Briton after all.
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rms2
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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2012, 07:47:33 PM »

Honestly, I am a little confused. Dr. McDonald's answer seems right, but I still don't get how FTDNA came up with that 4.63% Middle Eastern thing.

I have a lot to learn about the Family Finder test and autosomal dna, evidently.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2012, 07:56:55 PM »


Most likely fit is 100% English (Western Europe)

which is 100% total Europe


The location error = 0.005191 with 1 group

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,

most likely at the top

English= 1.000

[/quote]

Well the point to point ratio also may tell the story as well but he usually gives a few more populations to reference. It's like taking a pencil and laying it on the Euro map and rotating the possibilities of other mixtures. What else did he report?
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2012, 08:03:56 PM »

That's it. Notice the fraction of English is 1.0, which means there are no other matching population sets, in his opinion.

He sent me one of those PCA charts that shows me squarely in the English zone, betwixt the Irish and French.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2012, 10:25:04 PM »

Now that is pretty rare in today's admixture reports is seems. English for the last 10 generation, wow.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2012, 04:45:15 AM »

Now that is pretty rare in today's admixture reports is seems. English for the last 10 generation, wow.

Well, I noticed on the chart he sent me there are no Welsh or Scots populations, and no differentiation in regions in England (which would be asking a lot, I know). Maybe better resolution will come as more populations within the Isles are tested.

Anyway, my family tree, with but two exceptions, one French, one Dutch, has all British Isles surnames in it as far back as I can get, which in some cases is not far but in others goes back quite a ways. Some of those surnames are not English, however, but Welsh, Scots or Irish.

On my Matches page at Family Finder I have three or four Stewarts, which is intriguing because I do have that surname not too far back (2nd great grandmother) on my mother's side. I noticed that some of them are claiming descent from the Royal Stewart line. I realize a claim may be all there is to it, but I plan to contact them.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 04:51:11 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2012, 08:06:05 AM »

Here is something helpful that Timothy Peterman posted over at FTDNA's forum.

Quote from: Timothy Peterman
Continental ancestry can sometimes trigger secondary population matches that show up as Middle Eastern or Southern European. This is because the Dutch, Germans & Swiss are not really Orcadian; they do have a pull to the SE & since those populations are not represented, the closest match is populations south & east of there.

Hopefully, the new version of PF will eliminate this anomaly, so that a Middle Eastern percentage really means Middle Eastern.

Timothy Peterman


It still strikes me as odd that continental European ancestry would cause one to get hits for "Middle Eastern", but apparently that is a bug in the program that FTDNA is trying to address. I have heard from other folks that an updated version of Population Finder is in the works.

So, apparently the theme of this thread has already gone this way.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 08:06:48 AM by rms2 » Logged

devon96
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« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2013, 10:32:07 PM »

. . .

Steve, have you sent your data to Doug yet?


As a matter of fact, I did, and I just got an email from him. Here is what he wrote:

Quote
Most likely fit is 100% English (Western Europe)

which is 100% total Europe


The location error = 0.005191 with 1 group

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,

most likely at the top

English= 1.000


I sent him the raw data and did not mention anything about FTDNA's Population Finder stuff. Apparently Dr. McDonald did not see any Middle Eastern or anything else that wasn't just noise.

So now I am wondering where FTDNA got the 4.63% Middle Eastern thing.
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devon96
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« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2013, 10:37:23 PM »

I have just received same results and its march 2013 so I don't think anything has changed with familytree population finder. I'm mostly orcadian with 7% middle east. I feel like this is not correct, wandering how I can contact Doug and is there a charge, how do I send my results?
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« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2013, 01:27:51 AM »

I have just received same results and its march 2013 so I don't think anything has changed with familytree population finder.

My PF results have changed only once since first published (on the Illumina chip) and then by only a few percentage points.

From:

Europe (Western European) Orcadian 86.19% ±1.91%
Middle East Adygei, Iranian, Jewish 13.81% ±1.91%

To:

Europe (Western European) Orcadian  87.46% ±2.26%
Middle East  Adygei, Druze, Iranian, Jewish 12.54% ±2.26%

Quote
I'm mostly orcadian with 7% middle east. I feel like this is not correct, wandering how I can contact Doug and is there a charge, how do I send my results?

I don't know if he's still doing analyses, but they were free of charge.

Email him at: mcdonald@scs.uiuc.edu
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Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
Jdean
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« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2013, 02:00:24 PM »

My Population Finder results have moved from

Orcadian                                                          92.68%         ±1.93%
Palestinian ,Adygei, Druze, Iranian, Jewish              7.32%          ±1.93%

to

Orcadian                   83.42%          ±2.98%
Adygei, Iranian          16.58%          ±2.98%


I asked FTDNA about this yesterday in case it was some sort of clerical error but was advised this this was 'the effect of switching form Genomic Build 36 to 37'

I was also told FTDNA will be completely revamping Population Finder within the next 60 days so I think I'll wait until then before worrying to much as to what this might mean !!

BTW I tried contacting Douglas McDonald about my mothers FF results (she's 100% Orcadian) a little while back but received no reply.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 02:10:33 PM by Jdean » Logged

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gtc
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« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2013, 05:58:44 PM »

I was also told FTDNA will be completely revamping Population Finder within the next 60 days so I think I'll wait until then before worrying to much as to what this might mean !!

Given FTDNA IT's snafu run lately, goodness knows what PF will report after they "revamp" it.
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Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
Jdean
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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2013, 06:50:56 AM »

I was also told FTDNA will be completely revamping Population Finder within the next 60 days so I think I'll wait until then before worrying to much as to what this might mean !!

Given FTDNA IT's snafu run lately, goodness knows what PF will report after they "revamp" it.

Or how long 60 days is : )_
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gtc
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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2013, 07:29:33 AM »

I was also told FTDNA will be completely revamping Population Finder within the next 60 days so I think I'll wait until then before worrying to much as to what this might mean !!

Given FTDNA IT's snafu run lately, goodness knows what PF will report after they "revamp" it.

Or how long 60 days is : )_

Indeed.
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Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
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