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rms2
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« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2012, 10:17:56 AM »

I picked up three new matches yesterday, and one of them is actually from the UK. He is predicted to be in the range of 5th cousin to remote cousin, so it's not a real close relationship, but, then again, my ancestors left Britain and Ireland a long time ago, so I wouldn't expect a real close degree of relatedness to a current British citizen.

We share a total of 27.87 cM in common, with the longest block being 8 cM.

I don't see any surnames on his list that I share with him, but it's still kind of interesting.

There may be other British citizens lurking among my matches; I haven't checked each one minutely - just the very closest ones.
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Jim Rohrer
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« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2012, 05:39:36 PM »

Hello- my order with FTDNA was for Y testing.  I also ordered autosomal from DNATribes.  Now FTDNA is offering autosomal, so I ordered individual tests for a bunch of loci to cross check the results from DNATribes.

My impression is that autosomal testing is better for recent ancestry and less so for the way-back stuff.  Has anyone else heard that?
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Jim R
rms2
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« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2012, 06:48:04 PM »

Hello- my order with FTDNA was for Y testing.  I also ordered autosomal from DNATribes.  Now FTDNA is offering autosomal, so I ordered individual tests for a bunch of loci to cross check the results from DNATribes.

My impression is that autosomal testing is better for recent ancestry and less so for the way-back stuff.  Has anyone else heard that?

I think that is correct. Deep Clade y-dna testing gets you "deep ancestry". Family Finder gets you genealogical matches, though some of them can go pretty far back.
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Jim Rohrer
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« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2012, 09:11:12 PM »

The more recent ancestry is more interesting to me.  1000 years back is difficult to relate to.  

On my father's side, immigration was pre Revolution.  Midwestern German farmers who occasionally married Irish girls. Turns out farmers can be wild.  The Y dna confirm the Germanic origins.  But the real story is between 1850 and 1940.

The autosomal DNA matched on eastern Europe, not Germany.  On my mother's side, immigration was shortly after 1850.  We assumed they were Germanic but maybe they were German Hungarians or German Slovaks or German Romanians.  

The old European subgroups were Germanic, Slavic etc.  Do these mean anything anymore? Genetically, what does it mean to be Slavic?  Can our tests tell us if we are Slavic, Germanic or whatever?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 08:46:00 AM by Jim Rohrer » Logged

Jim R
rms2
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« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2012, 07:51:37 PM »

The more recent ancestry is more interesting to me.  1000 years back is difficult to relate to.  

On my father's side, immigration was pre Revolution.  Midwestern German farmers who occasionally married Irish girls. Turns out farmers can be wild.  The Y dna confirm the Germanic origins.  But the real story is between 1850 and 1940.

The autosomal DNA matched on eastern Europe, not Germany.  On my mother's side, immigration was shortly after 1850.  We assumed they were Germanic but maybe they were German Hungarians or German Slovaks or German Romanians.  

The old European subgroups were Germanic, Slavic etc.  Do these mean anything anymore? Genetically, what does it mean to be Slavic?  Can our tests tell us if we are Slavic, Germanic or whatever?

Autosomal results can be compared with current ethnic sample populations. Y-dna predates such groupings, however. You can tell generally, though, if the y-dna subclade to which you belong matches the distribution of an ancient people well or not.
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rms2
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« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2012, 06:46:35 PM »

I picked up three new matches yesterday, and one of them is actually from the UK. He is predicted to be in the range of 5th cousin to remote cousin, so it's not a real close relationship, but, then again, my ancestors left Britain and Ireland a long time ago, so I wouldn't expect a real close degree of relatedness to a current British citizen.

We share a total of 27.87 cM in common, with the longest block being 8 cM.

I don't see any surnames on his list that I share with him, but it's still kind of interesting.

There may be other British citizens lurking among my matches; I haven't checked each one minutely - just the very closest ones.

Hmmm . . .

I got another British citizen as a match on Family Finder, this one predicted to be in the range of 5th cousin to remote cousin. We have 27.22 cM in common, with the longest block being 8.07 cM.

What is interesting about this one is he is R-L21, like me, and reports many of his surname lines as coming from Shropshire in England and Montgomeryshire in Wales.

Shropshire is in the West Midlands and right on the Welsh border. I have a 65/67 y-dna match whose family is from Shropshire, and most of my close matches are either from the West Midlands or Wales or have surnames that are common in those places.
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Mike Forsyth
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« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2012, 09:27:48 AM »

This Family Finder is very cool...I made contact with a distant cousin and the story goes..Her ancestry is through a 17 year old convict (housebreaking) in 1835 who was  sent to New Southwest  Wales in1835. He married the daughter of a Irish convict, and they had ten children. One of the children was a direct ancestry to to her... at the age of 55 she found out she was adopted,  then decided to use F.F to research her ancestry... Without the aid of F.F. I doubt she could have made this link. And I am most certain, I would have never got to here her unique story.

I have read comments, where some folks are discouraged with Family Finder, and think its a waste of money. My experience is, F.F provides your genetic matches and the distance to that match...After that it is your job to make the link, which can consume a lot of time and effort, but will eventually pay off... The key is to keep a open mind, as anything is possible..
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Jim Rohrer
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« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2012, 11:06:33 AM »

My impression is that family finder's strength is in the detection of actual cousins and not in more general statements about ethnicity.  Pasted below is a critical assessment by an independent expert.

"Disadvantages: This test is based on the assumption that people are static beings, who remain fixed in one geographic position. It is based on the arbitrary declaration of customers who claim to have ancestry from this that and the other country. This is a significant weakness because studies base their allocations on what customers declare as their country of origin and most customers buy the test to find out what their origins are. A real case for post facto fallacy exists here as individuals deemed as outliers become relegated and others included to construct ancestral boundaries along popular beliefs currently in fashion. The costs involved make it very difficult to access for most working-class folk.

Claim: These tests claim to identify ancestral contributions to one's genome.

Counterclaim: These tests only test SNPs and do not look at the entire genome or the raw data embedded within Autosomal STRs. Ancestry is estimated with few controls. What specific data points mean is a controversial subject. Autosomal SNPs can not be considered ancestry-informative markers at the present time (yet)."

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-26795.html?s=ee9d84a9758b1ec1d84ce233258174c3
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Jim R
Mike Forsyth
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« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2012, 02:46:32 PM »

This so called "independent expert" has based his critical assessment on his opinion. It may be possible he has a problem with this Industry in general... He also notes.


Advantage: Testing your Autosomal DNA now will help develop further the tech and pay for future R & D.
Do not be fooled, it's a marketing ploy.

One would assume that ("pay for future R & D") this service should be free. My expectations of Family Finder was not to declare my country of origin, but as you stated, to obtain the detection of actual cousins...In that regard F.F. has served me very well, and worth every penny...
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rms2
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« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2012, 07:26:06 AM »

My impression is that family finder's strength is in the detection of actual cousins and not in more general statements about ethnicity.  Pasted below is a critical assessment by an independent expert.

"Disadvantages: This test is based on the assumption that people are static beings, who remain fixed in one geographic position. It is based on the arbitrary declaration of customers who claim to have ancestry from this that and the other country. This is a significant weakness because studies base their allocations on what customers declare as their country of origin and most customers buy the test to find out what their origins are. A real case for post facto fallacy exists here as individuals deemed as outliers become relegated and others included to construct ancestral boundaries along popular beliefs currently in fashion. The costs involved make it very difficult to access for most working-class folk.

Claim: These tests claim to identify ancestral contributions to one's genome.

Counterclaim: These tests only test SNPs and do not look at the entire genome or the raw data embedded within Autosomal STRs. Ancestry is estimated with few controls. What specific data points mean is a controversial subject. Autosomal SNPs can not be considered ancestry-informative markers at the present time (yet)."

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-26795.html?s=ee9d84a9758b1ec1d84ce233258174c3

I don't think those criticisms are valid. As I understand it, control populations, that is, sample populations used for ethnic comparisons and identification, are screened by geneticists to exclude recent arrivals and foreign input. Naturally, such screening can only extend a few generations. That is a natural limitation with which we must live until autosomal dna can be had in sufficient quantity from ancient remains.

"Working class folk" in the developed world can scrape together two hundred bucks for FTDNA's Family Finder test without too much difficulty. DNA testing is not just for the rich.
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Mike Forsyth
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« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2012, 09:19:43 AM »

My situation was not where I came from, but how do I get back. Family Finder is paving the road through genetic matches to do this. However, in order for this to happen, it helps if  your match has a solid paper trail, which I have been lucky in this regard...yesterday a distant cousin contacted me and I was amazed at our connection going back to 1625. This was her response...

"The Forsyth family is found on my grandmothers tree. My 9th great grandfather is James william Forsyth. I descend from his daughter."

This with other F.F. matches, I was able to make the link from the U.S. Ireland, then to Scotland... I have worked on my genealogy for many years,and have hit many brick walls...Family Finder complemented with Y DNA testing, has aloud me to do this in a short period of time...
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rms2
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« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2012, 07:54:28 AM »

My situation was not where I came from, but how do I get back. Family Finder is paving the road through genetic matches to do this. However, in order for this to happen, it helps if  your match has a solid paper trail, which I have been lucky in this regard...yesterday a distant cousin contacted me and I was amazed at our connection going back to 1625. This was her response...

"The Forsyth family is found on my grandmothers tree. My 9th great grandfather is James william Forsyth. I descend from his daughter."

This with other F.F. matches, I was able to make the link from the U.S. Ireland, then to Scotland... I have worked on my genealogy for many years,and have hit many brick walls...Family Finder complemented with Y DNA testing, has aloud me to do this in a short period of time...

That is awesome. Congratulations!

I have made some good connections and extended my pedigree on a couple of lines because of Family Finder, but I haven't experienced anything like that on my own surname line yet, which is what I really want.

I keep hoping that golden match will pop up soon.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2012, 03:12:06 AM »

Speaking of distant Family Finder cousins, I have 21 pages of matches! Yikes!

Some of them are pretty remote, but just the same, that's a lot.

I think that comes from the fact that various branches of my family have been in this country over 300 years.


Well Rich,

I sprang for this test last month and just got my FF results back. I seem to have 98 pages of matches, no close or immediate relatives, but 15 pages of distant relatives (apparently 3rd and 4th cousins) and 83 pages of speculative relatives.

Of course, none of them have surnames in common with my known family tree, although there appear to be some promising clues related to geographic locations (i.e., common towns). I will pursue some of those possibilities.

You'll probably not be surprised to learn that Population Finder results states 100.0% Middle Eastern with a 0.01% margin of error. I apparently have no autosomal DNA in common with any of my R-L21 Celts (unless they belong to the Baltic Cluster).
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

rms2
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« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2012, 08:57:58 PM »

That is interesting!

And that is a load of matches!
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2012, 12:32:41 PM »

That is interesting!

And that is a load of matches!

Having flunked the Celtic matching test with Family Finder, I decided to run my autosomal results through Dienekes Pontikos' latest DIYDodecad tools (this is with his K12b calculator). I have now confirmed my wife's long-time suspicion about why I like sausage and peppers so much.

The top two autosomal groups (very closely bunched) based on DIYDodecad Oracle calculations are:
 Ashkenazi (Jews)
 Sicilian

Following those two groups (but somewhat further behind in closeness) in order were:
 Sephardic (Jews)
 Greek
 Morocco (Jews)
 Italian
 Tuscan
 Cypriot
 Turkish
 Lebanese
 Turks
 Syrians
 Bulgarians
 Jordanians
 Druze

Nothing shows up at all for me from Northern Europe or the British Isles (at least in the first 20 ethnic groupings). This seems pretty consistent with my intuition about no recent conversions on any family tree line and the hereditary Levite situation on my R-L21 Y-DNA. This supports my suspicion that the R-L21 Baltic Cluster is an old line and distinct from the vast majority of known R-L21 subclades.
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« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2012, 05:17:44 AM »

Dear Seferhabahir, I avoided to answer you. In these times, also to call someone “dear” is dangerous. You said: “You'll probably not be surprised to learn that Population Finder results states 100.0% Middle Eastern with a 0.01% margin of error”. What should FTDNA say to its customers who do the exam to confirm their Middle Easterner and Jewish origin?
The Dienekes’ results seem to me less ideological and more true. What are they demonstrating? What we know from many years. For what concerns me, from the beginning of my researches. Because we cannot think that Sicilians, Greeks, Tuscans, Italians etc. are all of Jewish descent, I let you draw a conclusion.
About your R-L21 I can say that this is the unique thing interesting and I am open to every conclusion, but about this I have already said to you which is my thinking.   
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 05:18:10 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2012, 06:55:29 AM »

A couple of years ago, when Anatole Klyosov did his analysis of the Baltic Cluster, he concluded that its members share a common y-dna ancestor who was born in the 14th-15th centuries in Central Europe. Here is what Dr. Klyosov wrote at the time:

Quote from: Anatole Klyosov
. . . [A]ll these haplotypes have 8 mutations in 25 markers and 14 mutations in 37 markers. This places the common ancestor of all 7 haplotypes 650±240 years back if calculating on the basis of 25-markers and 550±160 back if calculating on the basis of 37 markers. In other words these seven people have a common ancestor who lived in the 14-15th century. It is possible to reconstruct that these families fled Central Europe around 650 years ago when Europe was depopulated by the bubonic plaque and Jews were often massacred as alleged culprits of the epidemic. The surviving Jews fled to Lithuania and Poland, who offered them protection. Jews at that time experienced a genetic bottleneck. That is why the most distant common ancestor of many Jewish clusters lived in the middle of the 14th century or later – that corresponds to the time of their migration to the new territories in Eastern Europe.

That is long enough ago that continued marriage into families with a more Middle Eastern and/or Mediterranean background would eventually produce a completely Middle Eastern/Mediterranean autosomal profile, while the y chromosome remained to tell a somewhat older tale.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2012, 07:57:46 AM »

Rich, we could look at also the mtDNA of Seferhabahir. His J1c7a is European from at least 15,000 years.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 07:58:20 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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seferhabahir
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« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2012, 11:59:59 AM »

You said: “You'll probably not be surprised to learn that Population Finder results states 100.0% Middle Eastern with a 0.01% margin of error”. What should FTDNA say to its customers who do the exam to confirm their Middle Easterner and Jewish origin?
The Dienekes’ results seem to me less ideological and more true. What are they demonstrating? What we know from many years. For what concerns me, from the beginning of my researches. Because we cannot think that Sicilians, Greeks, Tuscans, Italians etc. are all of Jewish descent, I let you draw a conclusion.   

Yes, I agree with you that the Population Finder result is very misleading. It places my Jewish FF results in Israel and then says I'm 100% Middle East, when the Dodecad results are in line with more balanced thinking.

Since a significant chunk of the Roman Empire converted to  Judaism 2000 years ago, there are no doubt some (many?) converted Sicilians, Greeks, Tuscans, or Italians amongst my Jewish ancestors. I'm sure you've read Zoossman-Diskin's "The origin of Eastern European Jews revealed by autosomal, sex chromosomal and mtDNA polymorphisms" where this is discussed in detail. I don't know enough about current academic debate on this to comment, but his article seems consistent with my  Dodecad results.

As I've said in other posts, along with my mtDNA J1c7a, there is also my maternal grandfather's Y-DNA J2a* which probably goes back to Caucasus or Levant areas.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2012, 12:45:24 PM »

I posted the paper of Zoossman-Diskin and probably many have read it after me, but I too found it posted by Conroy on Maju’s blog, as nobody spoke of it, neither Dienekes. But I am saying this from many years, and probably for this I gained two banishments and others were promised to me.
I understand what is behind these problems, but I think that a researcher should search only for truth, and also about the mtDNA many things are still hidden. I appreciate you and your sincere research of truth, whatever it is. I have the same your spirit.
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Maliclavelli


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seferhabahir
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« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2012, 03:09:05 PM »

...I think that a researcher should search only for truth, and also about the mtDNA many things are still hidden. I appreciate you and your sincere research of truth, whatever it is. I have the same your spirit.

Maliclavelli,

Can you help with an interpretation of the following data? I ran my autosomal DNA results through the Dodecad Oracle K12b program with the mixed mode to see what would happen. This provides mixed background estimations. Surprisingly (perhaps to me, but maybe not to you), it predicted mixes of Sephardic_Jews (~87.5%) and Balto/Slavic/Russian (~12.5%) for the top 10 mixed modes as follows:

1) 86.7% Sephardic_Jews, 13.3% Mordovians_Y
2) 87.2% Sephardic_Jews, 12.8% Russian
3) 87.1% Sephardic_Jews, 12.9% Russian_D
4) 87.0% Sephardic_Jews, 13.0% Russian_B
5) 86.6% Sephardic_Jews, 13.4% Mixed_Slav_D
6) 89.1% Sephardic_Jews, 10.9% Finnish_D
7) 88.9% Sephardic_Jews, 11.1% FIN30
8) 85.9% Sephardic_Jews, 14.1% Ukrainians_Y
9) 88.4% Sephardic_Jews, 11.6% Lithuanian_D
10) 87.2% Sephardic_Jews, 12.8% Belorussian

Leaving aside for now where Sephardic Jews originated, might this mean I could have seven of my eight great-grandparents descend mostly from Sephardic background, and one great-grandparent descending from somebody with a Russian/Slavic/Finno-Ugric genetic background? I'm not treating Dodecad as gospel here, but it is certainly more fascinating than an FTDNA 100% Middle Eastern (Jewish) label.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2012, 03:43:01 PM »

Leaving aside for now where Sephardic Jews originated, might this mean I could have seven of my eight great-grandparents descend mostly from Sephardic background, and one great-grandparent descending from somebody with a Russian/Slavic/Finno-Ugric genetic background? I'm not treating Dodecad as gospel here, but it is certainly more fascinating than an FTDNA 100% Middle Eastern (Jewish) label.

I forgot to ask whether this mixed mode result might shed light on why the so-called R-L21 "Baltic Cluster" exists in the first place. Perhaps the name is more accurate than we imagined and the cluster members are related to a Balto-Russian/Slavic/Finno-Ugric male who maybe found himself out in the Rhineland in 1100-1400 CE before all his male descendants were pushed east into the Pale? That is the likely time and place of the Batlic Cluster's MRCA according to Klyosov and other estimations. The other option is the Baltic Cluster may have come out of Sephardic Jewry, and it is just me that has a recent Balto-Russian/Slavic/Finno-Ugric ancestor.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2012, 08:12:46 PM »

I forgot to ask whether this mixed mode result might shed light on why the so-called R-L21 "Baltic Cluster" exists in the first place. Perhaps the name is more accurate than we imagined and the cluster members are related to a Balto-Russian/Slavic/Finno-Ugric male who maybe found himself out in the Rhineland in 1100-1400 CE before all his male descendants were pushed east into the Pale? That is the likely time and place of the Batlic Cluster's MRCA according to Klyosov and other estimations. The other option is the Baltic Cluster may have come out of Sephardic Jewry, and it is just me that has a recent Balto-Russian/Slavic/Finno-Ugric ancestor.

If a predominantly Sephardic mixed-mode hypothesis is not credible, then yet another option is to look at the mixed-modes that show up as ~95% Ashkenazi with ~5% of something else.  In those cases, the ~5% is either Brahui, Makrani, Balochi, Pathan, Jatt or Burusho (when the measured distances are less than 4.00). I'm sure that this is dependent on whether Dodecad clusters are representative of those populations, or is just a way of balancing the Ashkenazi DNA with these much more eastern groups.

At the moment, I am more interested in the origins of the R-L21 Baltic Cluster than these FF ancestral lineages, and am trying to use these autosomal data to help with that. I posted on another thread there are at least three Baltic Cluster individuals with a set of common SNPs on chromosome 15. Most (but not all) of my other FF matches that are R1b1a2 do not match there, but there are some that do. I am not able to find out yet if their STRs indicate R-L21 or 1111EE. At least it's fun trying to find out.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2012, 12:11:20 AM »

Seferhabahir, I am seeing only now your post and unfortunately must go to work, but about the North Eastern European component it is clear for me what I have always said to Jews who come from there, and it is demonstrated by the huge presence in Lithuanian Jews of the CCR5delta32 and of a mutation of the breast cancer arisen in North-East Europe, i.e that there is a component from there in you, beside an Italian, German, Khazar and who knows how many others.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2012, 01:26:18 PM »

I am up to 271 Family Finder matches as of today.
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