World Families Forums - DYS393=12 and kit #264348

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Susan J. Barretta
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« on: March 11, 2013, 01:36:38 PM »

Hello my fellow Collinses!

I have been getting questions about kit #264348 and a possible link to Haplogroup R1b Lineage 1.  The answer to the first question is YES, I am getting 67 markers tested, they are in progress now, and I will upgrade to 111 markers during the next sale.  The answer to the second question is unfortunately, no, I don't think there is a link to Lineage 1.

DYS393=12 makes all the difference. It is a very stable marker and rarely mutates. There is much information on it on Rootsweb and other places on the Internet.  Here is a good page about haplotype 35:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1b_ht35_analysis.htm

The working theories so far are that this marker came in to the British Isles with the Roman occupation.  Members of the Roman army were not necessarily "Italian" per se as the Roman Empire spread far and wide. R1b DYS393=12 is believed to be non-Iberian and to have come from the Anatolia/Armenia region.  There is lots out there on this marker and it is all fascinating reading (see also Haplogroup J and the Border Reivers project).

Matches to kit #264348 so far suggest that a non paternity event occurred, maybe within a generation or two following the Cromwell confiscations, involving a major family in West Cork known to have come from England. I have already been in touch with that project administrator and he is doing some investigating.  (And he was almost as surprised as I was by this result.)  The project has many enthusiastic participants, almost all of whom have submitted informative documentation.  The geographic proximity of their ancestors to my ancestor Humphrey Collins (near Skibbereen) is too close to dismiss as a coincidence.  

This is all quite a revelation to me as there is nothing about our real DNA family even remotely resembling naming patterns, wedding witnesses, baptism sponsors, known landlords, original religion, etc in my documented family tree.  There is nothing in all my family documentation suggesting our paths ever crossed.

In light of the information about Haplotype 35 above and the origin of DYS393=12, I suppose it would have been possible for some of the Roman occupiers to have been kidnapped by Irish raiders about 1500 years ago and taken back to Ireland as slaves. You may recall learning that is how St. Patrick was brought to Ireland.  Curiously, the origin of my English DNA family is extremely close to a location that has been put out there as a possible origin of St. Patrick, though most opinion about St. Patrick dismisses that location as "too far inland."  Nevertheless, the kidnapping of Roman army members and their descendants and their importation as slaves into Ireland could have been a pathway that introduced R1b DYS393=12 to that country.  

I give this a low probability in my case as that would have been about 45 generations ago. If this had happened, I would not expect kit #264348 to so strongly resemble the DNA results of members of this English family via West Cork today.

I'm sorry if any false hopes have been raised about a possible connection to R1b Lineage 1. If there are any further new developments that cast any doubt on my current thinking, I will post again in this forum.  

Additional notes about Collins in Cork:

1) One way the Collins name may have been introduced in Cork is through the very ancient Corca Laoidhe tribe.  O'Cuilin, a family in the tuath of O'Hennessy, may have been anglicized as Cullen or Collins.  Corca Laoidhe families were later pressured by Eoganacht settlers and others and pushed into a smaller territory.

2) The Collinses of Limerick were in the kingdom of Uí Fidgenti.  They along with the Donovans were driven out of Limerick around 1200 A.D. and they headed into West Cork.

recommended reading:  
Family Names of County Cork.  Diarmuid O Murchadha
Miscellany of the Celtic Society.  Genealogy of the Corca Laidhe.  John O'Donovan, editor.  
http://books.google.com/books?id=POxOAAAAcAAJ

Good luck with your research everybody!

-- Susan
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 08:26:55 PM by Susan J. Barretta » Logged
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