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Author Topic: Waiting for Lopiccolo (an Elymian?)’s results  (Read 1817 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: January 21, 2012, 06:55:37 PM »

Teddy Lopiccolo writes on 23andme:
“Can anyone decipher this marker value from the Y 67 test? (First 12 markers)

MarkerValue:

DYS393 DYS390 DYS19** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392
DYS389II
12 26 14 11 11-14 11 12 12 13 13 29

I
Teddy, as I have said to you in many private letters, you are R-M269* (your L584+ is the normal one: the mutation is L584-, a back mutation and only in R-L23+, the subclade of R after yours). Your first 12 values are in the modal of your haplogroup, but DYS390=26 is interesting and linked to the Italian ones. It will be interesting to see your next values, above all your YCAII if it will be 17-23 (the Italian cluster I believe the most ancient and one of the strong points in favour of my theory of the Italian refugium of haplogroup R).


II
Probably your data will be close to those of ySearch SRPAM (unfortunately completely anonymous), 79UHC (Filandro), RQ7K2 (Rodriguez), MHK97 (Federighi, my cousin’s husband from Tuscany), probably with YCAII=19-23, but it will be interesting to see if DYS462 will be 11 or 12.
The presence of this haplotype in Italy is huge, but some rare surnames like Filandro, the presence of Jews and Africans and Latin Americans doesn’t permit us to think definitely about its origin. I bet of course on the Italian one, seen the path in Italy of the ancestors of this haplotype (R1b1* with YCAII=18-22 and 18-23) and of the subclades like, overwhelmingly, R-L51+.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 10:29:19 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2012, 10:28:19 AM »

1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 12 11 15 19 15 16 23 12 >>
1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 11 >>
1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 13 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 637 Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America
1 of 249 Çukurova, Turkey [Turk] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
1 of 56 Sardinia, Italy [Sardinian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 98 Rimini, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

The response of YHRD seems clear, even too much, taking also present the massive presence of Italians in Brazil and that the same Iberians descend mostly from Italy by the three waves of colonization (7500YBP, expansion of Indo-Europeans from Italy: Lusitanian language, etc., Roman Empire).
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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2012, 11:14:54 AM »

1 14 13 28 26 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 565 Northern Portugal, Portugal [Portuguese] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 4 >> [see the 4 above]
14 13 28 25 11 13 12 11,14 4 >>

1 14 13 28 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 28 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 13 >>
1 14 13 28 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 13 15 19 16 15 23 12 >>
1 14 13 28 25 11 13 12 11,14 13 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 125 Afghanistan [Pathan] Eurasian - Indo-Iranian Asia
1 of 427 Córdoba, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
1 of 645 Prague, Czech Republic [Czech] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 653 Buenos Aires, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America

1 14 13 31 26 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 12 >>
1 of 738 Cologne, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

14 14 31 26 11 13 12 11,14 1 >>
14 13 31 26 11 13 12 11,14 1 >>
14 13 30 26 11 13 12 12,14 1 >>

1 14 14 31 26 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 357 Mexico City, Mexico [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America

1 14 13 30 26 11 13 12 12,14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 61 Bulgaria [Turks] Eurasian - Altaic Europe

15 13 30 26 11 13 12 12,14 1 >>
14 13 30 25 11 13 12 12,14 1 >>

1 15 13 30 26 11 13 12 12,14 11 13 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 1239 United States [Hispanic American] Admixed North America

1 14 13 30 25 11 13 12 12,14 12 12 15 19 15 17 23 13 >>
1 of 102 Oran, Algeria [Arab] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Africa

Of course, without DYS426, we aren’t able to say if these haplotypes are R-M269 or R-L23, and anyway the actual distribution seems to indicate a Mediterranean presence, but which is the link with all these places? Cologne (Germany) isn’t a Mediterranean place, but it was the Roman “Colonia”. Then, even though we could think to a Mediterranean diffusion by agriculturalists from Middle East, or to the North African route of Klyosov, the unique rational explication is a diffusion from Italy, and above all for its path of this haplogroup, from R1b1* to R-L51+, practically negligible out of its territory, except to North of the Alps, where probably happened the last expansion of the pile dwellers from 5000BC.
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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2012, 08:13:35 PM »

Did Lopiccolo's y-dna ancestors come from western Sicily?

What is your opinion of what little is known of the Elymian language? Is it Indo-European?
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2012, 02:32:04 AM »

Lopiccolo comes from the town of Segesta, whose temple is its avatar on 23andMe. The Elymian language is thought to belong to the Italic languages, like the language of the "Siculi" and probably of the "Sicani", whose names are linked for some linguists. For this I bet to an ancient Italian origin of his haplogroup, but of course, with all the movements of people in Sicily and in the other mediterranean countries, we need many other data.
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« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2012, 01:05:20 AM »

Teddy Lopiccolo writes on 23andMe:
“Hey Everyone:

Here are my other panels.

this goes up to 13-37 markers.

PANEL 2 (13-25)
Marker DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464
Value 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 13-15-16-16

PANEL 3 (26-37)
Marker DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
Value 10 11 19-23 15 16 17 17 36-37 12 13
Any ideas???”


Yes, everything good for my theory. It is confirmed YCAII=19-23. DYS464a=13, very rare, links you to Lanza (who has multiplied values) and to Mangino (the Tuscan Mancini) if he is really a R-M269 and not R1b1*, but in this case he is probably an intermediate haplotype amongst R1b1a2* and the most diffused downstream of it, and DYS438=13, the first found so far. My conclusions? Ancient Italian haplotype from the Italian refugium.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 07:28:00 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2012, 01:13:18 AM »

1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 13 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 56 Sardinia, Italy [Sardinian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

From YHRD: Dys438=13
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« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2012, 07:25:53 AM »

1 14 13 28 25 11 13 12 11,14 13 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >
1 of 595 Prague, Czech Republic [Czech] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe

14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 13 12 15 1 >>
14 13 28 25 11 14 12 11,14 13 12 15 1 >>
14 13 28 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 1 >>

1 14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 13 12 15 18 15 17 23 12 >>
1 of 162 Marche, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

1 14 13 28 25 11 14 12 11,14 13 12 15 19 16 18 23 12 >>
1 of 384 Ravenna, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

1 14 13 28 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 13 >>
1 of 327 Córdoba, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
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« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2012, 03:43:47 PM »

But where is LoPiccolo?  Before he was amongst the unclassified at the bottom of the ht 35 FTDNA project, but now he has disappeared. It’s well he is “TheLittle”, but to disappear! Oh, but he is amongst the R-L23+/L584+! Who put him there? The administrators or the administrator?
So Mangino (the Tuscan Mancini) is the unique with DYS426=12 amongst all the others 11 and with DYS578=8 amongst all the 9, and LoPiccolo is the unique with DYS426=11 amongst all the L23/L584+=12. And who did test him for L584? In the “Adriano’s spreadsheet” he was L584+ which is really -, being the + actually a back mutation. And wasn’t he also L23-? Really a great confusion. And amongst the L584+ a “Sicilian” has been added to the others, the last the Jew Silver.

Certainly when Mangino (Mancini) and LoPiccolo will be put at their true place…
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2012, 04:33:26 AM »

Mr. Lo Piccolo, let’s wait for this SNP test, but if you are L49-, like it appears on the “Adriano’s spreadsheet”, you cannot be L584+: in this case L584+ would be a recurrent mutation without a meaning for the R-Tree. Your markers say that you are R-M269 like I have always said, but that Vizachero has put you amongst the R-L584+ has a meaning: to demonstrate that you aren’t an “Italian”, but a Jew and that hg. R comes from Middle East. For this I have been banned many times from some forums. Certainly your posting on 23andMe about Armenians in South Italy goes in this direction, but Armenians were Indo-Europeans who came from the Balkans and have nothing to do with Italy: They are a little people, killed in part by Turks, and cannot have peopled Italy, which is tenfold more peopled. Unfortunately Mr. Vizachero makes some mistakes (willing) to demonstrate a thesis (wrong). I’ll make some Mancini (from Tuscany) linked to Mangino test.
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2012, 06:26:17 AM »

I am seeing now that LoPiccolo has been put amongst the R1b1a2* (rightly) in the Italian Project at FTDNA. Even though there are mixed in this haplogroup R-M269*, R-L23* and R-L51*, this collocation is more appropriate, I think, than the other.
We can then presuppose that in the Italian project masters Rich Rocca, and in the ht35 Project masters Vizachero, present in both. Of course I am with Rocca.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 07:55:14 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2012, 09:01:01 PM »

Mr. Lo Piccolo, let’s wait for this SNP test, but if you are L49-, like it appears on the “Adriano’s spreadsheet”, you cannot be L584+: in this case L584+ would be a recurrent mutation without a meaning for the R-Tree. Your markers say that you are R-M269 like I have always said, but that Vizachero has put you amongst the R-L584+ has a meaning: to demonstrate that you aren’t an “Italian”, but a Jew and that hg. R comes from Middle East...

There are no ulterior motives here.  The ht35 project admins are aware of the issue, I noted below, in a personal exchange with one of the ht35 project admins:

Quote
I just took a look at Adriano's spreadsheet, and it appears for L405, Teddy has the value inconsistent with men who have tested positive for L584 at FTDNA.  Perhaps I am reading the sheet incorrectly.  Probably be a good idea to ask Adriano.
 

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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2012, 04:53:46 AM »

Mr. Lo Piccolo, let’s wait for this SNP test, but if you are L49-, like it appears on the “Adriano’s spreadsheet”, you cannot be L584+: in this case L584+ would be a recurrent mutation without a meaning for the R-Tree. Your markers say that you are R-M269 like I have always said, but that Vizachero has put you amongst the R-L584+ has a meaning: to demonstrate that you aren’t an “Italian”, but a Jew and that hg. R comes from Middle East...

There are no ulterior motives here.  The ht35 project admins are aware of the issue, I noted below, in a personal exchange with one of the ht35 project admins:

Quote
I just took a look at Adriano's spreadsheet, and it appears for L405, Teddy has the value inconsistent with men who have tested positive for L584 at FTDNA.  Perhaps I am reading the sheet incorrectly.  Probably be a good idea to ask Adriano.
 



You wrote:
“The first few markers resemble Assyrian project member Pera a bit: 12 26 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 29. Unfortunately Pera is only tested through 12 markers, and has not tested for L584”.

Pera is tested R-L23+, then nothing to do with LoPiccolo.
There is a similar haplotype with DYS390=26 (and it is R-M269*) in the last paper on Serbian Y posted by Ricardo Costa de Oliveira on Dna-forums.

The Serbian R-L23* are all of the “Balkan cluster” (named by me after the “Albanian cluster” of Argiedude) with DYS385=11-11.

Of course this paper is another demonstration of the Italian origin of R1b and subclades. R-L51+ is about 4% in North-Central Italy and falls to 0,3% out of it: Eastward and Westward. A higher percentage to North, where happened the expansion from Italy.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 04:56:50 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2012, 04:36:51 AM »

Results will remain very positive . lets see.
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« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2012, 11:51:15 PM »

Dear Teddy, this is the SNP L584 at 23andMe:
L584 R1b1a2a1b 27141305 C->T
rs9786602
27141305 rs9786602 A or C
not genotyped Francesca Guarino
C Gioiello Tognoni
not genotyped Giorgio Tognarelli
not genotyped Monica De Conti
not genotyped Silvana Vagelli
not genotyped Velthur Tognoni
As you can see only me, tested with V2, have the result. My relatives, tested with V3, are “not genotyped”. Then if you have done V3, your result hadn’t to appear on the “Adriano’s spreadsheet”. You can see your result. Go to your 23andme account, click on “account” and to “Browse your raw data”, write “rs97866032” where it is written “aSNP” and push “Go”. Your result will appear.
Gioiello

Gioiello,
I did that...  and it mentioned that there are no results for rs97866032.

That's right. It should be so. Then you aren't L584+ and what appears on the "Adriano's Spreadsheet" is wrong, and also who put you on the "ht 35 Project" amongst the L584+, adding a Sicilian (and a presumed Sephardic) L584+ is wrong like I have said many times, i.e. Mr Vizachero. And now that the Armenians are negative, both the L584+ and the L584-, for the four SNPs found by the WTY on Silver (L943, L944, L945, L946), also the presumed origin from the "Ten Tribes Lost" of L584+ is wrecked. We will discover soon where L584+ was born.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 03:38:40 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2012, 12:36:47 AM »

Teddy, I typed wrongly the SNP. You should write rs9786602. Let me know.
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« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2012, 11:33:46 AM »

Gioiello,
here you go
27141305 rs9786602 A or C Teddy LoPiccolo's genotype is C
what does this mean?

Teddy, you can see that you are C like me, i.e. we are ancestral, i.e. L584- and not +. But if you get this result, probably you did 23andMe V2 and not V3. As you see, I was right on every assertion I did. Permit me to publish this result on 23andMe and Worldfamilies. I don't publish it on Dna-forums, even though they have permitted my subscription (I am "gioiellot"), after they banned me three times. Of course my banishments were wrong and I am right on all the line.

Thank you for your collaboration.
Kind Regards and Best Wishes, Gioiello Tognoni
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« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2012, 11:43:43 AM »

Gioiello,
here you go
27141305 rs9786602 A or C Teddy LoPiccolo's genotype is C
what does this mean?

Teddy, you can see that you are C like me, i.e. we are ancestral, i.e. L584- and not +. But if you get this result, probably you did 23andMe V2 and not V3. As you see, I was right on every assertion I did. Permit me to publish this result on 23andMe and Worldfamilies. I don't publish it on Dna-forums, even though they have permitted my subscription (I am "gioiellot"), after they banned me three times. Of course my banishments were wrong and I am right on all the line.

Thank you for your collaboration.
Kind Regards and Best Wishes, Gioiello Tognoni


Gioiello, is there a way to tell which 23andMe chip ran his results?
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« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2012, 12:59:54 PM »

Rich, you know that “L584” is a triallelic SNP, but we should say that A was the ancestral and is worth for all haplogroups. The first mutation, if I remember well, happened in hg. P, then we all after P are C, and we should call this L405+. Only the third mutation from C to T should be called L584+.
I haven’t followed the matter if not in these last times, and I cannot see the “Adriano’s spreadsheet” (at least I am not able to see hg.R), but by watching my result and those of my relatives, I can see that I am “C” (I did V2) and my relatives (my cousin’s husband Giorgio Tognarelli and my son Velthur), tested by the V3 chip, are “not genotyped”. Then I presume that, if Teddy LoPiccolo has a C at this SNP, he too has done the V2 chip. Anyway his result is perfectly in line with his STRs values (clearly a R-M269*), and I think it is for this completely reliable. Anyway he is waiting for the L584 SNP test at FTDNA, and we will know his value definitively, but I have a few doubts.
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« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2012, 02:33:41 PM »

Rich, you know that “L584” is a triallelic SNP, but we should say that A was the ancestral and is worth for all haplogroups. The first mutation, if I remember well, happened in hg. P, then we all after P are C, and we should call this L405+. Only the third mutation from C to T should be called L584+.
I haven’t followed the matter if not in these last times, and I cannot see the “Adriano’s spreadsheet” (at least I am not able to see hg.R), but by watching my result and those of my relatives, I can see that I am “C” (I did V2) and my relatives (my cousin’s husband Giorgio Tognarelli and my son Velthur), tested by the V3 chip, are “not genotyped”. Then I presume that, if Teddy LoPiccolo has a C at this SNP, he too has done the V2 chip. Anyway his result is perfectly in line with his STRs values (clearly a R-M269*), and I think it is for this completely reliable. Anyway he is waiting for the L584 SNP test at FTDNA, and we will know his value definitively, but I have a few doubts.


I guess we'll have to wait a little longer. His L584 test is in batch #450 and expected to complete on 3/26/2012.
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« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2012, 05:23:26 PM »

Teddy LoPiccolo writes on 23andme: “I received my results, and I am L584-“.

My response (like Anatole Klyosov says): “Of course. Ask the masters of Genetics (Vincent Vizachero and his Armenian friend) that they put you in the right place, i.e. amongst the R-M269”.
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« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2012, 03:43:39 PM »

After several email requests, Lopiccolo's kit has been properly placed in the L23+ L51- L11- group within the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project).
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« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2012, 05:09:37 PM »

I have also his mtDNA, and it is an interesting and very ancient N1c of Italian descent with samples to Switzerland and Central-Europe/Isles, my Italian Refugium also fo this. Of course it is possible also the other way around, anyway ancient Europe also for this haplogroup thought usually Eastern one.
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« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2012, 05:29:38 PM »

After several email requests, Lopiccolo's kit has been properly placed in the L23+ L51- L11- group within the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project).
I have seen, but he is R1b1a2/M269* and not R-L23, has being resulted negative for L49.1 at 23andme, like the "Adriano's spreadsheet" demonstrates, and his values are those of R-M269 and not of R-L23. I don't understand why Mr Vizachero is completely out of head, or perhaps I understand, seeing what they have done to Mangino (the Tuscan Mancini from Monticiano), one of the strongest point for my theory.
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« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2012, 05:59:46 PM »

   
        R1b1 Sam Vass
   R1b1b2  Teddy LoPiccolo
   R1b1b2*Joseph Merante, Morris Roitman
   R1b1b2a Gioiello Tognoni, Giorgio Tognarelli, Velthur Tognoni, a k, Harold Ehrman,         Joao Salvador, Mark Ciulla

These are the23andMe data: I don’t understand why they classify Teddy LoPiccolo R1b1b2 and Joseph Merante R1b1b2*, because they belong to the same haplogroup. The R-L23 are the persons below: me, my son, my relative Giorgio Tognarelli etc.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 06:02:25 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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