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Author Topic: Famous Scottish Folklorist L159.2+?  (Read 1473 times)
NealtheRed
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« on: January 12, 2012, 09:21:59 PM »

I recently sent a request to Alasdair MacDonald of the Scottish DNA Project at the University of Strathclyde to recruit a Carmichael who matched the Irish Sea Modal.

Mr. Carmichael joined the project, and a kind reply from Alasdair informed me that this Carmichael's ancestor is Alexander Carmichael, Scottish folklorist and author of Carmina Gadelica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmina_Gadelica).

The Carmichaels are from the Isle of Lismore, and their closest DNA matches are a group of L159.2+ MacDougalls. Moreover, Carmichael is listed as a sept of Clan MacDougall.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 09:23:39 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



OConnor
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« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2012, 11:18:48 PM »

what do you make of the Scotland L159 connection?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 11:20:12 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2012, 09:50:32 AM »

what do you make of the Scotland L159 connection?
Do you mean in reference to the Carmichael-MacDougall connection, or L159.2 in Scotland in general?
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



OConnor
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2012, 06:55:04 AM »

I was thinking in general.

I had wondered if L159 came from Ireland to Scotland, or Scotland to Ireland.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 07:00:46 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Mike Walsh
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2012, 12:53:01 AM »

I was thinking in general.

I had wondered if L159 came from Ireland to Scotland, or Scotland to Ireland.
With some help from NealtheRed, my second cousin was tested L159.2+. The family history is they came from Argyl to Donegal during the Plantation era and then got squeezed out economically and had to go to America.

Anyway, historically, they are Scotland to Ireland, but in the Dark Ages I don't know. They are Irish Sea haplotypes. The surname is Rhea and they look to be related to Doty's although we don't have that in our genealogical data. We are supposed to be related to the Campbells, but I can't figure that out, other than non-paternal lineage wise.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2012, 08:56:06 AM »

I was thinking in general.

I had wondered if L159 came from Ireland to Scotland, or Scotland to Ireland.
With some help from NealtheRed, my second cousin was tested L159.2+. The family history is they came from Argyl to Donegal during the Plantation era and then got squeezed out economically and had to go to America.

Anyway, historically, they are Scotland to Ireland, but in the Dark Ages I don't know. They are Irish Sea haplotypes. The surname is Rhea and they look to be related to Doty's although we don't have that in our genealogical data. We are supposed to be related to the Campbells, but I can't figure that out, other than non-paternal lineage wise.

I think your cousin testing L159.2+ is consistent with the family history saying the Rheas are originally from Argyll. We find them in Donegal, but the family is Scots Presbyterian, implying that they moved to Northern Ireland from Scotland.

The Rhea lineage supposedly descends from a son of the Earl of Argyll, but if one looks at the Campbell DNA Project, there is only one Campbell who matches the Irish Sea Haplotype, while the majority inherits the Scots Modal. I suspect that if your Rhea ancestor is a Campbell, he does not descend from the chiefly lineage but is in some way connected with Clan Campbell.

I really enjoyed your cousin's result, because it helped assuage the family's suspicions if the Rheas were originally from Scotland or not.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2012, 09:02:28 AM »

I was thinking in general.

I had wondered if L159 came from Ireland to Scotland, or Scotland to Ireland.

I think there is traffic both ways, but L159.2 is rarely seen further inland from the Western Highlands. I suspect it was involved with coastal settlements of the Gaelic regions, and then you had the Irish settlements along the coasts of North West England.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 09:02:49 AM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mark Jost
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2012, 01:33:44 PM »

I just modified my copy of MikeW's latest spreadsheet to use Anatole Klyosov's mutation counting method and his correction for back mutations adjustments. I can use with any combination of haplotypes using the R-P312 modal as the base Ht within the Excel 'AllHts' worksheet.

So I selected only L159 - 67 marker haplotypes and then selected Country categories as designated by Mike and here are the results.

Group   Hts   Mutations   GenAdj   Age
L21-All   2238   30,687   129   3,225
L21/L159   87   1,067   114   2,850

Sorted by Age
France   1   19   187   4,675
Germany   1   13   121   3,025
Scotland   11   143   121   3,025
ZZZ   28   342   112   2,800
Ireland   32   389   111   2,775
England   12   141   108   2,700
Norway   2   23   105   2,625

Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2012, 05:12:09 PM »

I just modified my copy of MikeW's latest spreadsheet to use Anatole Klyosov's mutation counting method and his correction for back mutations adjustments. I can use with any combination of haplotypes using the R-P312 modal as the base Ht within the Excel 'AllHts' worksheet.

So I selected only L159 - 67 marker haplotypes and then selected Country categories as designated by Mike and here are the results.

Group   Hts   Mutations   GenAdj   Age
L21-All   2238   30,687   129   3,225
L21/L159   87   1,067   114   2,850

Sorted by Age
France   1   19   187   4,675
Germany   1   13   121   3,025
Scotland   11   143   121   3,025
ZZZ   28   342   112   2,800
Ireland   32   389   111   2,775
England   12   141   108   2,700
Norway   2   23   105   2,625



Thanks for crunching these numbers, Mark. It definitely puts everything in perspective, and makes it easier to ascertain genetic relationships between regions. Is that high number for France and Germany telling?

Notice the age of Scottish L159.2 compared to Irish samples.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mark Jost
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2012, 06:20:10 PM »

Well what it seems so suggest that the one guy in France have more mutations away from L21 and is older but he is only one haplotype, is this guy in the same Haplogroup for sure?

The German guy has the same situation of being the only one, but he matches the Scots in the number of generations so if you would run Phylogram or Fluxus and see where where he fit, probably the same section of the chart. The Irish are, with a larger net of Ht's, ten or so generations younger. So if France is correct, a jump to Scotland then to Ireland and England and Norway based on testee's available. Need more L159+ guys from Scotland,  England and, mainly, France to see a better lay of the land (or Sea)!
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2012, 08:46:40 PM »

Well what it seems so suggest that the one guy in France have more mutations away from L21 and is older but he is only one haplotype, is this guy in the same Haplogroup for sure?

The German guy has the same situation of being the only one, but he matches the Scots in the number of generations so if you would run Phylogram or Fluxus and see where where he fit, probably the same section of the chart. The Irish are, with a larger net of Ht's, ten or so generations younger. So if France is correct, a jump to Scotland then to Ireland and England and Norway based on testee's available. Need more L159+ guys from Scotland,  England and, mainly, France to see a better lay of the land (or Sea)!

The German and French L159.2+ samples may not be German and French, respectively. It was much more likely a non-paternal event took place.

In essence, what we are looking at is a cluster with its main concentration along the Irish Sea coasts of both Great Britain and Ireland. There are historical migrations to and fro that can explain the various patterns we see.

I know every cluster has its famous bearers, but I thought it was particularly cool that Alexander Carmichael inherited the Irish Sea Haplotype.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mark Jost
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2012, 01:59:57 AM »

Sounds like an interesting guy. I do not know much about him though.

I mentioned that I could drill down into subgroups or regions so here is what I have done next. Although you can see where people are from using push pins on a map, using extended information may point out unseen facts.

Group   Hts   Mutations   GenAdj   Age
L21-All   2238   30,687   129    3,225
L21/L159   87   1,067   114    2,850

Sorted by Age
France   1   19   187    4,675
ScoWeCen   2   27   126    3,150
Germany   1   13   121    3,025
Scotland   11   143   121    3,025
Sco z unk   6   78   121    3,025
Ire Muns   3   38   117    2,995
Ire Leins   8   102   118    2,950
Sco North   2   25   116    2,900
ZZZ   28   342   112    2,800
Ireland   32   389   111    2,775
Ire z unk   11   133   111    2,775
England   12   141   108    2,700
Norway   2   23   105    2,625
Ire Ulster   8   91   104    2,600
re Conn   2   22   100    2,500

Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2012, 08:49:04 AM »

Sounds like an interesting guy. I do not know much about him though.

I mentioned that I could drill down into subgroups or regions so here is what I have done next. Although you can see where people are from using push pins on a map, using extended information may point out unseen facts.

Group   Hts   Mutations   GenAdj   Age
L21-All   2238   30,687   129    3,225
L21/L159   87   1,067   114    2,850

Sorted by Age
France   1   19   187    4,675
ScoWeCen   2   27   126    3,150
Germany   1   13   121    3,025
Scotland   11   143   121    3,025
Sco z unk   6   78   121    3,025
Ire Muns   3   38   117    2,995
Ire Leins   8   102   118    2,950
Sco North   2   25   116    2,900
ZZZ   28   342   112    2,800
Ireland   32   389   111    2,775
Ire z unk   11   133   111    2,775
England   12   141   108    2,700
Norway   2   23   105    2,625
Ire Ulster   8   91   104    2,600
re Conn   2   22   100    2,500



Is there some sort of statistical program I can use to analyze such relationships? I would like to learn how to compare variance.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2012, 10:06:21 AM »

I was thinking in general.

I had wondered if L159 came from Ireland to Scotland, or Scotland to Ireland.
With some help from NealtheRed, my second cousin was tested L159.2+. The family history is they came from Argyl to Donegal during the Plantation era and then got squeezed out economically and had to go to America.

Anyway, historically, they are Scotland to Ireland, but in the Dark Ages I don't know. They are Irish Sea haplotypes. The surname is Rhea and they look to be related to Doty's although we don't have that in our genealogical data. We are supposed to be related to the Campbells, but I can't figure that out, other than non-paternal lineage wise.

I think your cousin testing L159.2+ is consistent with the family history saying the Rheas are originally from Argyll. We find them in Donegal, but the family is Scots Presbyterian, implying that they moved to Northern Ireland from Scotland.

The Rhea lineage supposedly descends from a son of the Earl of Argyll, but if one looks at the Campbell DNA Project, there is only one Campbell who matches the Irish Sea Haplotype, while the majority inherits the Scots Modal. I suspect that if your Rhea ancestor is a Campbell, he does not descend from the chiefly lineage but is in some way connected with Clan Campbell.

I really enjoyed your cousin's result, because it helped assuage the family's suspicions if the Rheas were originally from Scotland or not.
The family history comes from the son of our Scots-Irish immigrant during Revolutionary War times in Maryland and North Carolina territory (Tenn.) The immigrant was the Rev. Joseph Rhea, a Presbyterian minister born in County Donegal. He says his grandfather was actually a "Campbell" and left Argyle as a result of the Monmouth Rebellion failure.

I have this book and know the author, who is actually an "in-law." We are lucky to have an in-law like this author.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-descendants-of-matthew-the-rebel-rhea-of-scotland-and-ireland-edward-foley/1018970085

He is so passionate he bought the old Rhea homestead near what is now a big NASCAR track in Bristol, Tennessee.

Everything indicates the Scotland to Ireland migration was true. I can't see the Campbell connection though, anywhere, Y DNA wise. It's a neat story though:
Quote
Matthew Campbell b. c1660, according to family legend took the oath of the Protestant faith, and he, among others, assisted the Earl of Argyll (Archibald Campbell Argyll) in raising an army to aid the cause of the Duke of Monmouth (Illegitimate son of Charles II by Lucy Waters) in the uprising against King James II. King James II was Catholic with little tolerance for Protestants. Thus the reason both Rhea's and Preston's came to America was Religious Freedom. This struggle continues today in Northern Ireland.

The Duke of Monmouth was captured and executed. The Duke of Argyll was under royal Parole and when he was captured, he was executed under the original sentence, on 30 June 1685 without trial. His kinsman, Matthew Campbell, was tried and condemned to life imprisonment in Castle Peel on the Isle of Man, where he escaped by bribing his jailer. (This has been questioned as the records show that rebels were either executed or sent to the colonies, not to the Isle of Man.) He made his way across the straits to the shores of Northern Ireland, near Londonderry, Ireland. To complete his disguise, he changed his name to Reagh, Reah or as we know it, Rhea.

Matthew "the rebel" Campbell/Rhea is the Reverands' grandfather.  

Please indulge me...
A little later, my g-grandfather David V. Rhea, was a 2nd lt. in the Union Army in Grierson's raid across Mississippi, setting up the Battle of the South over Vicksburg. He was one of the "Horse Soldiers" of John Wayne/William Holden  fame. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052902/
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 11:55:07 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2012, 10:23:59 AM »

MikeW's spread sheet calculate variance of each marker and the sum at cell BY5 for the selected Haplotypes. You could check the variance of each cluster I examined to see those results. The more markers off modal, the increase in variance seems to be likely.

We would need a Stat's person to look to see if there is a correlation.
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
NealtheRed
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Posts: 930


« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2012, 12:22:09 PM »

I was thinking in general.

I had wondered if L159 came from Ireland to Scotland, or Scotland to Ireland.
With some help from NealtheRed, my second cousin was tested L159.2+. The family history is they came from Argyl to Donegal during the Plantation era and then got squeezed out economically and had to go to America.

Anyway, historically, they are Scotland to Ireland, but in the Dark Ages I don't know. They are Irish Sea haplotypes. The surname is Rhea and they look to be related to Doty's although we don't have that in our genealogical data. We are supposed to be related to the Campbells, but I can't figure that out, other than non-paternal lineage wise.

I think your cousin testing L159.2+ is consistent with the family history saying the Rheas are originally from Argyll. We find them in Donegal, but the family is Scots Presbyterian, implying that they moved to Northern Ireland from Scotland.

The Rhea lineage supposedly descends from a son of the Earl of Argyll, but if one looks at the Campbell DNA Project, there is only one Campbell who matches the Irish Sea Haplotype, while the majority inherits the Scots Modal. I suspect that if your Rhea ancestor is a Campbell, he does not descend from the chiefly lineage but is in some way connected with Clan Campbell.

I really enjoyed your cousin's result, because it helped assuage the family's suspicions if the Rheas were originally from Scotland or not.
The family history comes from the son of our Scots-Irish immigrant during Revolutionary War times in Maryland and North Carolina territory (Tenn.) The immigrant was the Rev. Joseph Rhea, a Presbyterian minister born in County Donegal. He says his grandfather was actually a "Campbell" and left Argyle as a result of the Monmouth Rebellion failure.

I have this book and know the author, who is actually an "in-law." We are lucky to have an in-law like this author.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-descendants-of-matthew-the-rebel-rhea-of-scotland-and-ireland-edward-foley/1018970085

He is so passionate he bought the old Rhea homestead near what is now a big NASCAR track in Bristol, Tennessee.

Everything indicates the Scotland to Ireland migration was true. I can't see the Campbell connection though, anywhere, Y DNA wise. It's a neat story though:
Quote
Matthew Campbell b. c1660, according to family legend took the oath of the Protestant faith, and he, among others, assisted the Earl of Argyll (Archibald Campbell Argyll) in raising an army to aid the cause of the Duke of Monmouth (Illegitimate son of Charles II by Lucy Waters) in the uprising against King James II. King James II was Catholic with little tolerance for Protestants. Thus the reason both Rhea's and Preston's came to America was Religious Freedom. This struggle continues today in Northern Ireland.

The Duke of Monmouth was captured and executed. The Duke of Argyll was under royal Parole and when he was captured, he was executed under the original sentence, on 30 June 1685 without trial. His kinsman, Matthew Campbell, was tried and condemned to life imprisonment in Castle Peel on the Isle of Man, where he escaped by bribing his jailer. (This has been questioned as the records show that rebels were either executed or sent to the colonies, not to the Isle of Man.) He made his way across the straits to the shores of Northern Ireland, near Londonderry, Ireland. To complete his disguise, he changed his name to Reagh, Reah or as we know it, Rhea.

Matthew "the rebel" Campbell/Rhea is the Reverands' grandfather.  

Please indulge me...
A little later, my g-grandfather David V. Rhea, was a 2nd lt. in the Union Army in Grierson's raid across Mississippi, setting up the Battle of the South over Vicksburg. He was one of the "Horse Soldiers" of John Wayne/William Holden  fame. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052902/

That is a fascinating family history. The most likely scenario, in my opinion, was that Matthew Rhea was a Campbell, but maybe on the maternal line. Even so, many Scots who became affiliated with larger clans like Clan Campbell (either for protection or promises of land) sometimes changed their surname in lieu of the new relationship.

I didn't know there was a book about Matthew Rhea. That definitely adds to the fame already achieved by the family when they immigrated to the States.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
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« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2012, 12:33:55 PM »

I just thought about it, but the Rhea story reminds me of the 15th century Highlander practice of manrent.

Usually, a man of a smaller clan would enter into a contract with the lord/chief of a larger clan for protection. In turn, the "petitioner" would be bonded to the larger clan by law, and would usually provide military service.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2012, 04:25:55 PM »

I was thinking in general.

I had wondered if L159 came from Ireland to Scotland, or Scotland to Ireland.
With some help from NealtheRed, my second cousin was tested L159.2+. The family history is they came from Argyl to Donegal during the Plantation era and then got squeezed out economically and had to go to America.

Anyway, historically, they are Scotland to Ireland, but in the Dark Ages I don't know. They are Irish Sea haplotypes. The surname is Rhea and they look to be related to Doty's although we don't have that in our genealogical data. We are supposed to be related to the Campbells, but I can't figure that out, other than non-paternal lineage wise.

I think your cousin testing L159.2+ is consistent with the family history saying the Rheas are originally from Argyll. We find them in Donegal, but the family is Scots Presbyterian, implying that they moved to Northern Ireland from Scotland.

The Rhea lineage supposedly descends from a son of the Earl of Argyll, but if one looks at the Campbell DNA Project, there is only one Campbell who matches the Irish Sea Haplotype, while the majority inherits the Scots Modal. I suspect that if your Rhea ancestor is a Campbell, he does not descend from the chiefly lineage but is in some way connected with Clan Campbell.

I really enjoyed your cousin's result, because it helped assuage the family's suspicions if the Rheas were originally from Scotland or not.
The family history comes from the son of our Scots-Irish immigrant during Revolutionary War times in Maryland and North Carolina territory (Tenn.) The immigrant was the Rev. Joseph Rhea, a Presbyterian minister born in County Donegal. He says his grandfather was actually a "Campbell" and left Argyle as a result of the Monmouth Rebellion failure.

I have this book and know the author, who is actually an "in-law." We are lucky to have an in-law like this author.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-descendants-of-matthew-the-rebel-rhea-of-scotland-and-ireland-edward-foley/1018970085

He is so passionate he bought the old Rhea homestead near what is now a big NASCAR track in Bristol, Tennessee.

Everything indicates the Scotland to Ireland migration was true. I can't see the Campbell connection though, anywhere, Y DNA wise. It's a neat story though:
Quote
Matthew Campbell b. c1660, according to family legend took the oath of the Protestant faith, and he, among others, assisted the Earl of Argyll (Archibald Campbell Argyll) in raising an army to aid the cause of the Duke of Monmouth (Illegitimate son of Charles II by Lucy Waters) in the uprising against King James II. King James II was Catholic with little tolerance for Protestants. Thus the reason both Rhea's and Preston's came to America was Religious Freedom. This struggle continues today in Northern Ireland.

The Duke of Monmouth was captured and executed. The Duke of Argyll was under royal Parole and when he was captured, he was executed under the original sentence, on 30 June 1685 without trial. His kinsman, Matthew Campbell, was tried and condemned to life imprisonment in Castle Peel on the Isle of Man, where he escaped by bribing his jailer. (This has been questioned as the records show that rebels were either executed or sent to the colonies, not to the Isle of Man.) He made his way across the straits to the shores of Northern Ireland, near Londonderry, Ireland. To complete his disguise, he changed his name to Reagh, Reah or as we know it, Rhea.

Matthew "the rebel" Campbell/Rhea is the Reverands' grandfather.  
That is a fascinating family history. The most likely scenario, in my opinion, was that Matthew Rhea was a Campbell, but maybe on the maternal line. Even so, many Scots who became affiliated with larger clans like Clan Campbell (either for protection or promises of land) sometimes changed their surname in lieu of the new relationship.

I didn't know there was a book about Matthew Rhea. That definitely adds to the fame already achieved by the family when they immigrated to the States.

Yes, I think so. Matthew's "uncle" was Archibald Campbell, the 9th Earl of Argyl.  
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/34048/Archibald-Campbell-9th-Earl-of-Argyll

No one said that the uncle was on the paternal side. This would be heresy for me, but I could think of a situation where an Irishmen escaped jail and then made up the rest of the story.
  
Still, I think the origination in Scotland is probably right. The Rev. Joseph Rhea went to Glasgow to get educated. He wrote in Latin and was supposed to be known for his writing. He was Presbyterian. This sounds like somebody with connections back there.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 04:28:15 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2012, 12:26:08 AM »

Here is a link I found for Alexander Carmichael's two volumes of the Carmina Gadelica.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/cg.htm

MJost

I recently sent a request to Alasdair MacDonald of the Scottish DNA Project at the University of Strathclyde to recruit a Carmichael who matched the Irish Sea Modal.

Mr. Carmichael joined the project, and a kind reply from Alasdair informed me that this Carmichael's ancestor is Alexander Carmichael, Scottish folklorist and author of Carmina Gadelica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmina_Gadelica).

The Carmichaels are from the Isle of Lismore, and their closest DNA matches are a group of L159.2+ MacDougalls. Moreover, Carmichael is listed as a sept of Clan MacDougall.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2012, 10:47:32 AM »

Very cool! Thanks, Mark! I need to get a copy.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



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