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Author Topic: have the new SNPs under L21 already disproved the Milesian model?  (Read 4159 times)
alan trowel hands.
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« on: January 18, 2012, 07:47:12 PM »

I ask that because I understand (correct me if I am wrong) that the various Irish clusters linked by the history seem to have parted their ways a long time ago.

Ui Neill/Connachta=NW Irish cluster=DF23+

DalgCais=Irish type III=Z293

Airgialla/Little Scots/P314.2=DF21

Eoghanachta=Irish type II= negative for all the above??

I am assuming that I am correct in understanding that DF21, DF23 and Z293 all represent lines with no known mutual SNP back to L21.  I also understand that DF23, Z293 and DF21 may be old and collectively would indicate a split from each other perhaps 4000 years ago.  This to me suggests that L21 has arrived in Ireland in several strands and that the mythological idea that all the Irish tribes had a common ancestor in more recent times is wrong.  Not sure if that is a logical deduction but would welcome civilised debate on it. 


Also what is the SNP status of the Leinster cluster?

I would love a list of confirmed positive and negative SNPs for all the big L21 clusters in Ireland and Britain.  If anyone can post that it would be very helpful. 

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rms2
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2012, 08:15:13 PM »

You meant Z253 and not Z293, right?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2012, 08:41:47 PM »


Also what is the SNP status of the Leinster cluster?

Alan,

Z255 is the most accurate designation for the Irish Sea or Leinster cluster. L159.2 is too volatile and may distort who belongs to the cluster or not.

All I can tell you is I have not spotted any Z255-looking haplotypes in Spain, and am highly certain it did not arrive to Ireland/Britain from there. If a SNP between L21 and Z255 is found, and if such a SNP can be found in Iberia, then I stand corrected.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 08:43:33 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2012, 02:30:58 PM »

what I really mean is that the Milesian myth tries to derive all or most of the Irish clans from some later prehistoric common ancestor.  However the SNPs like DF23, DF21 and Z253 collectively show (by both positive and negative results) that the big Irish clusters do not share a common ancestor until way back in time, perhaps 4000 years back. 

However, I am mindful that the high frequency of people with these SNPs does owe a lot to much later downstream clusters descended from one guy judging by the variances of NW Irish, south Irish, Irish III etc.  That makes me wary of seeing these as 'waves' O'Rahilly style. 
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2012, 03:38:03 PM »

what I really mean is that the Milesian myth tries to derive all or most of the Irish clans from some later prehistoric common ancestor.  However the SNPs like DF23, DF21 and Z253 collectively show (by both positive and negative results) that the big Irish clusters do not share a common ancestor until way back in time, perhaps 4000 years back. 

However, I am mindful that the high frequency of people with these SNPs does owe a lot to much later downstream clusters descended from one guy judging by the variances of NW Irish, south Irish, Irish III etc.  That makes me wary of seeing these as 'waves' O'Rahilly style. 

Do you think any of the Irish SNPs could have come from Iberia? I am bit behind on all of the recent developments, but remember Z253 having a presence there (among other places in continental Europe as well).
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2012, 06:24:16 PM »

what I really mean is that the Milesian myth tries to derive all or most of the Irish clans from some later prehistoric common ancestor.  However the SNPs like DF23, DF21 and Z253 collectively show (by both positive and negative results) that the big Irish clusters do not share a common ancestor until way back in time, perhaps 4000 years back. 

However, I am mindful that the high frequency of people with these SNPs does owe a lot to much later downstream clusters descended from one guy judging by the variances of NW Irish, south Irish, Irish III etc.  That makes me wary of seeing these as 'waves' O'Rahilly style. 

Do you think any of the Irish SNPs could have come from Iberia? I am bit behind on all of the recent developments, but remember Z253 having a presence there (among other places in continental Europe as well).

It not impossible.  However, both the Irish III and Iberian clusters seem to be Medieval (basically the progeny of 2 Medieval guys), possibly 2-3000 years older than the SNP.  There is a huge gap in time.  The Irish III cluster is SW Irish and the Iberian cluster in NE Spain.  So they are geographically in the right ballpark.  However, the Irish IV cluster also has this SNP and it seems to be dominated by non-native Irish names which may would think as 'Norman' by which I mean continental names believed to have arrived in the isles in high Medieval times.  That suggests to me that the SNP was also known on the NW continent too at the same period as the Irish and Spanish clusters were rising.  It may seem odd that a Gaelic Irish cluster associated with the DalgCais (Irish III), an apparently Irish 'Norman' dominated cluster (Irish IV) both share the same SNP but my feeling is that may be a hint that the Medieval 'Norman' settlers of Irish IV may have come from the same area as the native Gaelic Irish DalgCais had come from some time earlier.  Another thing that links both Normans and the DalgCais area is of course Vikings but I dont want to get involved in the fashion for seeing Vikings everywhere.  Right now the SNP is so much older than the Medieval originated clusters that I dont think anyone can have much of an idea of its origin and direction of flow.  Maybe as more test some pattern will emerge and variance can be calculated on a region by region basis.

I wonder if it could be distributed all the way from NE Spain, through the western half of France and into the isles.  My gut feeling is that its centre of gravity and origin point of the SNP is Atlantic France but its very early days and that is a guess based on far too little evidence.       
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2012, 06:54:03 PM »

what I really mean is that the Milesian myth tries to derive all or most of the Irish clans from some later prehistoric common ancestor.  However the SNPs like DF23, DF21 and Z253 collectively show (by both positive and negative results) that the big Irish clusters do not share a common ancestor until way back in time, perhaps 4000 years back. 

However, I am mindful that the high frequency of people with these SNPs does owe a lot to much later downstream clusters descended from one guy judging by the variances of NW Irish, south Irish, Irish III etc.  That makes me wary of seeing these as 'waves' O'Rahilly style. 

Do you think any of the Irish SNPs could have come from Iberia? I am bit behind on all of the recent developments, but remember Z253 having a presence there (among other places in continental Europe as well).

It not impossible.  However, both the Irish III and Iberian clusters seem to be Medieval (basically the progeny of 2 Medieval guys), possibly 2-3000 years older than the SNP.  There is a huge gap in time.  The Irish III cluster is SW Irish and the Iberian cluster in NE Spain.  So they are geographically in the right ballpark.  However, the Irish IV cluster also has this SNP and it seems to be dominated by non-native Irish names which may would think as 'Norman' by which I mean continental names believed to have arrived in the isles in high Medieval times.  That suggests to me that the SNP was also known on the NW continent too at the same period as the Irish and Spanish clusters were rising.  It may seem odd that a Gaelic Irish cluster associated with the DalgCais (Irish III), an apparently Irish 'Norman' dominated cluster (Irish IV) both share the same SNP but my feeling is that may be a hint that the Medieval 'Norman' settlers of Irish IV may have come from the same area as the native Gaelic Irish DalgCais had come from some time earlier.  Another thing that links both Normans and the DalgCais area is of course Vikings but I dont want to get involved in the fashion for seeing Vikings everywhere.  Right now the SNP is so much older than the Medieval originated clusters that I dont think anyone can have much of an idea of its origin and direction of flow.  Maybe as more test some pattern will emerge and variance can be calculated on a region by region basis.

I wonder if it could be distributed all the way from NE Spain, through the western half of France and into the isles.  My gut feeling is that its centre of gravity and origin point of the SNP is Atlantic France but its very early days and that is a guess based on far too little evidence.       

Both Irish Type III and Type IV are Z253+? I am assuming Type IV is L226-.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2012, 02:18:52 AM »

Both Irish Type III and Type IV are Z253+? I am assuming Type IV is L226-.
Yes
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2012, 12:12:12 PM »

What is the interclade between Irish III and IV? 
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Heber
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« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2012, 12:31:49 PM »

Alan,
Whatever about the Milesian model, I believe there is ample evidence that some of the Celts arrived in Ireland via Iberia.
There were several waves of settlers who arrived via Iberia and the Atlantic Facade including Megalithic builders, Bell Beakers, Copper Age Miners (Ross Island), Bronze Age Settlers, Iron Age Celts as well as several back migrations from Ireland to Iberia and the Continent. Were these ancestors of the Celts or were they all subclades of M269 or a mixture of R1b, I and J is a matter of debate.
From a language point of view Q-Celtic is Ancestral to P-Celtic and Celt Iberian appears to be Ancestral to Q-Celtic.
Most of the sub clades of L21 have a strong presence in Ireland including DF23, M222, Z253, L226, DF21, P314.2 and many of the Scottish based clades would appear to have migrated from Ireland.
The Milesian legends are just that, legends, however each founding myth has an element of fact. I dont believe they were invented out of thin air. The timeframe of the original settler from the Milesean Genealogies is 1699 BC, which closely matches the age of L21 (3,700).
L21 clades L253 and P312 Z196 match both Irish and Ibernian men.
I believe some of the Bell Beakers and Atlantic Bronze Age settlers migrated up the great rivers of Europe, Loire, Rhone, Seine, Rhine to found the Halstatt and Le Tene cultures at the source of those rivers. This provides the last wave of Celtic migrations into the Isles.
When we get more SNPs downstream of L21, we should be able to compare the L21 Tree to the Irish and Scottish Clan Tree and identify which elememts of the genealogy are fact and which are fiction.
I will post a picture illustrating the above when I get a chance.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2012, 07:31:26 PM »

Alan,
Whatever about the Milesian model, I believe there is ample evidence that some of the Celts arrived in Ireland via Iberia.
There were several waves of settlers who arrived via Iberia and the Atlantic Facade including Megalithic builders, Bell Beakers, Copper Age Miners (Ross Island), Bronze Age Settlers, Iron Age Celts as well as several back migrations from Ireland to Iberia and the Continent. Were these ancestors of the Celts or were they all subclades of M269 or a mixture of R1b, I and J is a matter of debate.
From a language point of view Q-Celtic is Ancestral to P-Celtic and Celt Iberian appears to be Ancestral to Q-Celtic.
Most of the sub clades of L21 have a strong presence in Ireland including DF23, M222, Z253, L226, DF21, P314.2 and many of the Scottish based clades would appear to have migrated from Ireland.
The Milesian legends are just that, legends, however each founding myth has an element of fact. I dont believe they were invented out of thin air. The timeframe of the original settler from the Milesean Genealogies is 1699 BC, which closely matches the age of L21 (3,700).
L21 clades L253 and P312 Z196 match both Irish and Ibernian men.
I believe some of the Bell Beakers and Atlantic Bronze Age settlers migrated up the great rivers of Europe, Loire, Rhone, Seine, Rhine to found the Halstatt and Le Tene cultures at the source of those rivers. This provides the last wave of Celtic migrations into the Isles.
When we get more SNPs downstream of L21, we should be able to compare the L21 Tree to the Irish and Scottish Clan Tree and identify which elememts of the genealogy are fact and which are fiction.
I will post a picture illustrating the above when I get a chance.

Not sure I agree there is any clearcut evidence of Celts from Iberia.  Certainly the Iron Age in Ireland is emphatically lacking in Celt-Iberian or other Iberian material.  The Irish Iron Age material is either peculiarly Irish or relates to British and Gaulish material.  The Bronze Age is possible but when you look at the distribution maps of various Bronze Age artefacts Ireland's Atlantic connections look far stronger with Britain and NW France than Iberia.  The only modern stab at identifying the origin of Irish beaker culture was by Humphrey Case and he thought the strongest link was with NW France.  As for the Megalithic thing, I think this is often wrongly considered a 'culture' by many people.  However, it is not considered as such by modern archaeologists.  The general idea may have spread and even some ideas about shapes etc but in detail the burials within them show that the people who were being buried had different cultural backgrounds, pottery, burial traditions etc and many are actually not of the same period.  Again, by far the strongest parallels for Irish megaliths are in Britain and NW France.  OF the major megalithic tombs types in Ireland the parallels for Court tombs are with western British ones like CLyde and Cotswold-Severn tombs.  Portal tombs are best paralleled in Wales and SW England.  Wedge tombs (which are Copper Age) are most often compared to NW French Alles Couverte.  The large passage tombs have their closest links with Atlantic Britain (including Orkney) and NW France.   IMO its only the legend that is making people focus on Iberia instead of NW France.  The latter is far closer to Ireland than Iberia both geographically and in terms of yDNA i.e. very high L21. Given all of the above, why are we not talking about NW France more and Iberia less?  Again, its the influence and hold on the imagination of the Milesian legend.   
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A.D.
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« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2012, 10:46:27 PM »

I thought the current thinking (in Ireland anyway) is that there was no invasion/new settlement in Ireland during the Iron Age. In fact there appears to be a lot of re-forestation and population decline. That would mean nothing between the Bronze age and the Viking/Normans. It wouldn't surprise me if Ireland was populated for the most part by a constant trickle of neighboring peoples.
As for megaliths a recent view is that Carnac (France) was built by Mesolithic people. It is not another neolithic henge type variation.
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Heber
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« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2012, 04:10:16 AM »

Alan,

Of course a major hub in the Atlantic Facade was Morbihan especially for communication between  the Atlantic, The Isles and Iron Age Halstatt and Le Tene and it was a major hub in the Atlantic, Megalithic, Copper and Bronze Ages.
However if you look at the coastal migration path from Anatolia the major hubs on the Iberian coast were Tartessian including Huevla and Rio Tinto  for copper mining, Tagus and Galicia. Much of the recent research and publications including Cunliffe & Koch, Moffat & Wilson and Klyosov also agree with this route.

One of the major conferences on the subject was "Celtic from the West". The contributions of Cunliffe, Koch, McEvoy and Bradley are particularly interesting.

Here are some of the highlights:

Part 1. Archealogy

Celtization from the West,
the contribution of architecture.
Barry Cunliffe.
Fig 1.1 Relative density of ancient ‘Celtic looking’ place names. Hot spots on the atlantic Façade including Iberia..
Fig 1.3 Greek knowledge of the Celts in the age of Hecataeus and Herodotus. Largely confined to the Mediterranean and Black Sea. Greeks and Romans are not a reliable source for commentary on the Isles as much of their knowledge was second hand.
Fig 1.4 A cognitive geography of the Atlantic Zone as it might have been viewed by an Atlantic mariner, showing major rivers and inlets of Iberia and France.
Fig 1.5 Enclave colonisation. Europe in the period c 5500 - 4100 showing the two principal routes by which the Neolithic way of life spread through Europe from the southern Balkans, the overland spread via the Danube and North European Plain and the Mediterranean route by sea ultimately to the Atlantic coast of Iberia.
Fig 1.6 The distribution of megalithic tombs shows them to be essentially an Atlantic phenomenon. The earliest tombs  - passage graves dating c 4,500 - 3,500 BC - have a maritime distribution, suggesting that the beliefs and the technologies behind the construction was along the Atlantic seaways.
Fig 1.7 The distribution of jadeite axes from their source in the Western Alps across Europe. The distribution vividly displays the exchange networks then in operation.
Fig 1.8 The distribution of Maritime Bell Beaker in Atlantic Europe during the 3rd Millennium, the crucial nodes in this network were the Tagus estuary and the Morbihan, while major hinterland routes followed the navigable rivers. The map indicates the initial movements were maritime. Trade routes with Ireland and Southern Britain for copper and tin.
Fig 1.9 The extent of the Bell Beaker complex 2700-2200 BC. Major corridors of communication by sea and river. Mediterranean, Atlantic, Danube, Rhine,
Fig 1.10 The interaction of the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker Complexes c2500 BC. North European Plain.

The Celts from everywhere and nowhere. Raiumund Karl.
Different origins of Celtic cultural features with Linguistic Celtic origin along the Atlantic Façade, Archaeological ‘La Tene’ origin in central Europe and Historic ‘Druidic’ origin in the Isles.

Newly discovered inscriptions from the south-west of the Iberian peninsula. Tartessian. Amilcar Guerra.
An analysis of about 50 newly discovered stelae fromTartessian. Several photographs and sketches.

Part 2: Genetics.

Western Celts?
A genetic impression of Britain in Atlantic Europe. Ellen C. Royrvik.
Analysis of MC1R ‘red hair’ frequencies.
Map of Genetic variation in Europe.
Fig. 4.6 shows a Gaulish expansion leading to Iberia, Western France and the Isles.
Fig 4.7 shows a rough Highland and Lowland divide of the Isles with the south east more La Tene Gaulish and the West including Ireland representing a more pan Celtic profile.
Irish Genetics and the Celts. Brian McEvoy and Daniel Bradley.
Fig 5.1 Genetic contour map of Europe showing contours from Anatolia (SE) to the Isles (NW).
Fig 5.2 Genetic map of the Isles calculated from 300,000 SNPs spread across the autosomal genome showing Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England.
Fig 5.3 Contour map showing the geographic frequency distribution of the Irish Modal Haplogroup (IMH) and closely related Y-chromosones showing the NW Ireland hot spots.
Fig 5.4 Illustrative Genealogy of the Ui Neill dynasty (and derived surnames) from the 5th C to the present day.  Future testing will provide further insights as well as generating fresh debate on the Irish past.
A reanalysis of multiple prehistoric immigrations to Britain and Ireland aimed at identifying the Celtic contributions. Stephen Oppenheimer.
Fig 6.1 Map of Europe with frequency of ancient place names which were Celtic with hotspots in NW France, Iberia and the Isles.
Fig 6.2 Frequency distribution of genetic Haplogroup R1b. The densest gene flow follows the Atlantic façade, thus favouring Ireland which was then part of the continent.
Fig 6.3 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroups Irb2 (M26) and Irb* (P37.2). The hotspots and possible homeland of Irb in the Balkens with Irb2 further to the West.
Fig 6.4 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroup J2 (M12) in Europe showing expansion from the Balkens and hot spots in SE and NW Iberia. (Cruciani)
Fig 6.5 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroup E3b1a2 in Europe with expansion from the Balkens. Cruciani.
Fig 6.6 Principal Componants Ananysis of Y Chromosones in Western Europe using R1b and R1a1 and I1b2 and I1a showing a gradient from Ireland via the Isles, Continent to Scandanavia.

Part 3 Language and Literature

Origen of the Celtic Languages. G.R. Isaac.
An analysis of the Indo European languages.
Tracking the course of the savage tongue. David N. Parsons.
Fig 8.1 British River names.
Fig 8.2-8.5 Various maps of ancient Europe showing occurrence of ‘~briga’, ‘~duno’, ‘~duro’,’~mag’ names. Many in Iberia.
Paradigm Shift? Interpreting Tartessian as Celtic. John T. Koch.
Fig 9.1 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae, Phoenician colonies, and Tartessian inscriptions. Shows Keltoi Tartessos region.
Fig 9.1 Celtic Expansion from Halstatt/La Tele central Europe.
Fig 9.3 The Ancient Celtic Languages. Shows Halstatt, Early La Tene, Urnfield and Atlantic Bronze Age with sharp division of Goidelic, Brittonic and gaulish.
Tartessian Inscriptions: There follows over 70 detailed photographs and transcriptions of stelae many of them with depictions of warriors and their their epitaphs.
“Where the evidence of Tartessos and Tartessian changes the picture is in showing that one of the most dynamic regions influencing Ireland and Britain during the period c 1300 – c900 BC was probably itself Celtic speaking and also in contact with and receiving influences from non Indo European partners in the eastern Meditteranean and north Africa.
Tartessian Linguistic Elements: A detailed alphabet and index of names and analysis of the grammar follows.
Ancient References to Tartessos. A very interesting compendium of classical references to Tartessos from Greeks, Romans, Assyrians and Hebrews, ranging from Aristotle,Cicero, Hecataeus, Herodotus, Livy, Ovid, Pliny the Elder, Seneca, Strabo, Theopompus and biblical references from Genesis, Kings, Chronicles, Psalm, Jeremiah, Jonah.

The Problem of Lusitanian. Dagmar S. Wodtko.
The core region inhabited by Lusitanian’s seems to have comprised the lands between the Douro and Tejo in northern Portugal.

Celtic from the West
Cunliffe & Koch

This book is an exploration of the new idea that the Celtic languages originated in the Atlantic Zone during the Bronze Age, approached from various perspectives: pro and con, archaeology, genetics, and philology. This 'Celtic Atlantic Bronze Age' theory represents a major departure from the long-established, but increasingly problematic scenario in which the story of the Ancient Celtic languages and that of peoples called Keltoi 'Celts' are closely bound up with the archaeology of the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures of Iron Age west-central Europe. The 'Celtic from the West' proposal was first presented in Barry Cunliffe's Facing the Ocean (2001) and has subsequently found resonance amongst geneticists. It provoked controversy on the part of some linguists, though is significantly in accord with John Koch's findings in Tartessian (2009). The present collection is intended to pursue the question further in order to determine whether this earlier and more westerly starting point might now be developed as a more robust foundation for Celtic studies. As well as having this specific aim, a more general purpose of Celtic from the West is to bring to an English-language readership some of the rapidly unfolding and too often neglected evidence of the pre-Roman peoples and languages of the western Iberian Peninsula. Celtic from the West is an outgrowth of a multidisciplinary conference held at the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth in December 2008. In addition to 11 chapters, the book includes 45 distribution maps and a further 80 illustrations. The conference and collaborative volume mark the launch of a multi-year research initiative undertaken by the University of Wales Centre for Advanced Welsh and Celtic Studies CAWCS]: Ancient Britain and the Atlantic Zone ABrAZo]. Contributors: (Archaeology) Barry Cunliffe; Raimund Karl; Amilcar Guerra; (Genetics) Brian McEvoy & Daniel Bradley; Stephen Oppenheimer; Ellen Rrvik; (Language & Literature) Graham Isaac; David Parsons; John T. Koch; Philip Freeman; Dagmar S. Wodtko.

The Scots, A Genetic Journey
Moffat & Wilson

“Now it appears that S145 (L21) also travelled along these (Atlantic) trading routes. The marker probably originated in southern France or northern Iberia and people carrying it came to Ireland and western Scotland. This was not a wave of migration but a series of small movements over time, probably in the millennium between 2,500 BC and 1,500 BC”.


R1a and R1b history:
Anatole Klyosov

 http://www.turkicworld.org/turkic/60_Genetics/Klyosov2010DNK-GenealogyEn.htm

The part that I found interesting was the following extract which concords with the recent Moffat and Wilson book, "The Scots, A Genetic Journey" and Cunliffe and Koch, "Celtic from the West".

"From the Anatolia, which the carriers of R1b1b2, together with their agglutinative language, reached 6,000 ± 800 years ago (Klyosov, 2008a, b), they continued moving westward toward Europe by two routes. One route went through the Balkans, where the haplogroup R1b1b2 is recorded at about 4,000 years ago (a formal calculation gives 4050 ± 890 years ago). In Sardinia, it dates from the 5,025 ± 630 years ago, Sicily 4,550 ± 1020 years ago, in Italy 4,125 ± 500 years ago, in Slovenia 4,250 ± 600 years ago. Another route went through the Middle East (the common ancestor of the modern carriers of the haplogroup R1b1b2 in Lebanon dates back to 5,300 ± 700 years ago, among the modern Jews 5,150 ± 620 years ago), then on across the North Africa (Algerian Berbers 3,875 ± 670 years ago) to the Atlantic Ocean and on to the Iberian Peninsula (3,750 ± 380 years ago), and further on to Europe (Klyosov, 2009a).

It is very likely that carriers of R1b1b2 reached Iberia 4,800-4,500 years before present, but then they had passed a “population bottleneck”, and reappeared again (through a few survived DNA-lineages) 3,750 ± 380 years ago. This is when a common ancestor of the present-day Basques lived.

Approximately 3,600 years ago that haplogroup is noted in the British Isles. This is the movement of Beaker culture - from the Iberian Peninsula in the British Isles and on the European continent. They are the ancestors of the Proto-Celtics and Proto-Italics, and, probably, Proto-Picts and other “Proto”-R1b1b2 peoples in Europe
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 04:13:26 AM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2012, 09:56:44 AM »

Alan,

Of course a major hub in the Atlantic Facade was Morbihan especially for communication between  the Atlantic, The Isles and Iron Age Halstatt and Le Tene and it was a major hub in the Atlantic, Megalithic, Copper and Bronze Ages.
However if you look at the coastal migration path from Anatolia the major hubs on the Iberian coast were Tartessian including Huevla and Rio Tinto  for copper mining, Tagus and Galicia. Much of the recent research and publications including Cunliffe & Koch, Moffat & Wilson and Klyosov also agree with this route.

One of the major conferences on the subject was "Celtic from the West". The contributions of Cunliffe, Koch, McEvoy and Bradley are particularly interesting.

Here are some of the highlights:

Part 1. Archealogy

Celtization from the West,
the contribution of architecture.
Barry Cunliffe.
Fig 1.1 Relative density of ancient ‘Celtic looking’ place names. Hot spots on the atlantic Façade including Iberia..
Fig 1.3 Greek knowledge of the Celts in the age of Hecataeus and Herodotus. Largely confined to the Mediterranean and Black Sea. Greeks and Romans are not a reliable source for commentary on the Isles as much of their knowledge was second hand.
Fig 1.4 A cognitive geography of the Atlantic Zone as it might have been viewed by an Atlantic mariner, showing major rivers and inlets of Iberia and France.
Fig 1.5 Enclave colonisation. Europe in the period c 5500 - 4100 showing the two principal routes by which the Neolithic way of life spread through Europe from the southern Balkans, the overland spread via the Danube and North European Plain and the Mediterranean route by sea ultimately to the Atlantic coast of Iberia.
Fig 1.6 The distribution of megalithic tombs shows them to be essentially an Atlantic phenomenon. The earliest tombs  - passage graves dating c 4,500 - 3,500 BC - have a maritime distribution, suggesting that the beliefs and the technologies behind the construction was along the Atlantic seaways.
Fig 1.7 The distribution of jadeite axes from their source in the Western Alps across Europe. The distribution vividly displays the exchange networks then in operation.
Fig 1.8 The distribution of Maritime Bell Beaker in Atlantic Europe during the 3rd Millennium, the crucial nodes in this network were the Tagus estuary and the Morbihan, while major hinterland routes followed the navigable rivers. The map indicates the initial movements were maritime. Trade routes with Ireland and Southern Britain for copper and tin.
Fig 1.9 The extent of the Bell Beaker complex 2700-2200 BC. Major corridors of communication by sea and river. Mediterranean, Atlantic, Danube, Rhine,
Fig 1.10 The interaction of the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker Complexes c2500 BC. North European Plain.

The Celts from everywhere and nowhere. Raiumund Karl.
Different origins of Celtic cultural features with Linguistic Celtic origin along the Atlantic Façade, Archaeological ‘La Tene’ origin in central Europe and Historic ‘Druidic’ origin in the Isles.

Newly discovered inscriptions from the south-west of the Iberian peninsula. Tartessian. Amilcar Guerra.
An analysis of about 50 newly discovered stelae fromTartessian. Several photographs and sketches.

Part 2: Genetics.

Western Celts?
A genetic impression of Britain in Atlantic Europe. Ellen C. Royrvik.
Analysis of MC1R ‘red hair’ frequencies.
Map of Genetic variation in Europe.
Fig. 4.6 shows a Gaulish expansion leading to Iberia, Western France and the Isles.
Fig 4.7 shows a rough Highland and Lowland divide of the Isles with the south east more La Tene Gaulish and the West including Ireland representing a more pan Celtic profile.
Irish Genetics and the Celts. Brian McEvoy and Daniel Bradley.
Fig 5.1 Genetic contour map of Europe showing contours from Anatolia (SE) to the Isles (NW).
Fig 5.2 Genetic map of the Isles calculated from 300,000 SNPs spread across the autosomal genome showing Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England.
Fig 5.3 Contour map showing the geographic frequency distribution of the Irish Modal Haplogroup (IMH) and closely related Y-chromosones showing the NW Ireland hot spots.
Fig 5.4 Illustrative Genealogy of the Ui Neill dynasty (and derived surnames) from the 5th C to the present day.  Future testing will provide further insights as well as generating fresh debate on the Irish past.
A reanalysis of multiple prehistoric immigrations to Britain and Ireland aimed at identifying the Celtic contributions. Stephen Oppenheimer.
Fig 6.1 Map of Europe with frequency of ancient place names which were Celtic with hotspots in NW France, Iberia and the Isles.
Fig 6.2 Frequency distribution of genetic Haplogroup R1b. The densest gene flow follows the Atlantic façade, thus favouring Ireland which was then part of the continent.
Fig 6.3 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroups Irb2 (M26) and Irb* (P37.2). The hotspots and possible homeland of Irb in the Balkens with Irb2 further to the West.
Fig 6.4 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroup J2 (M12) in Europe showing expansion from the Balkens and hot spots in SE and NW Iberia. (Cruciani)
Fig 6.5 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroup E3b1a2 in Europe with expansion from the Balkens. Cruciani.
Fig 6.6 Principal Componants Ananysis of Y Chromosones in Western Europe using R1b and R1a1 and I1b2 and I1a showing a gradient from Ireland via the Isles, Continent to Scandanavia.

Part 3 Language and Literature

Origen of the Celtic Languages. G.R. Isaac.
An analysis of the Indo European languages.
Tracking the course of the savage tongue. David N. Parsons.
Fig 8.1 British River names.
Fig 8.2-8.5 Various maps of ancient Europe showing occurrence of ‘~briga’, ‘~duno’, ‘~duro’,’~mag’ names. Many in Iberia.
Paradigm Shift? Interpreting Tartessian as Celtic. John T. Koch.
Fig 9.1 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae, Phoenician colonies, and Tartessian inscriptions. Shows Keltoi Tartessos region.
Fig 9.1 Celtic Expansion from Halstatt/La Tele central Europe.
Fig 9.3 The Ancient Celtic Languages. Shows Halstatt, Early La Tene, Urnfield and Atlantic Bronze Age with sharp division of Goidelic, Brittonic and gaulish.
Tartessian Inscriptions: There follows over 70 detailed photographs and transcriptions of stelae many of them with depictions of warriors and their their epitaphs.
“Where the evidence of Tartessos and Tartessian changes the picture is in showing that one of the most dynamic regions influencing Ireland and Britain during the period c 1300 – c900 BC was probably itself Celtic speaking and also in contact with and receiving influences from non Indo European partners in the eastern Meditteranean and north Africa.
Tartessian Linguistic Elements: A detailed alphabet and index of names and analysis of the grammar follows.
Ancient References to Tartessos. A very interesting compendium of classical references to Tartessos from Greeks, Romans, Assyrians and Hebrews, ranging from Aristotle,Cicero, Hecataeus, Herodotus, Livy, Ovid, Pliny the Elder, Seneca, Strabo, Theopompus and biblical references from Genesis, Kings, Chronicles, Psalm, Jeremiah, Jonah.

The Problem of Lusitanian. Dagmar S. Wodtko.
The core region inhabited by Lusitanian’s seems to have comprised the lands between the Douro and Tejo in northern Portugal.

Celtic from the West
Cunliffe & Koch

This book is an exploration of the new idea that the Celtic languages originated in the Atlantic Zone during the Bronze Age, approached from various perspectives: pro and con, archaeology, genetics, and philology. This 'Celtic Atlantic Bronze Age' theory represents a major departure from the long-established, but increasingly problematic scenario in which the story of the Ancient Celtic languages and that of peoples called Keltoi 'Celts' are closely bound up with the archaeology of the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures of Iron Age west-central Europe. The 'Celtic from the West' proposal was first presented in Barry Cunliffe's Facing the Ocean (2001) and has subsequently found resonance amongst geneticists. It provoked controversy on the part of some linguists, though is significantly in accord with John Koch's findings in Tartessian (2009). The present collection is intended to pursue the question further in order to determine whether this earlier and more westerly starting point might now be developed as a more robust foundation for Celtic studies. As well as having this specific aim, a more general purpose of Celtic from the West is to bring to an English-language readership some of the rapidly unfolding and too often neglected evidence of the pre-Roman peoples and languages of the western Iberian Peninsula. Celtic from the West is an outgrowth of a multidisciplinary conference held at the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth in December 2008. In addition to 11 chapters, the book includes 45 distribution maps and a further 80 illustrations. The conference and collaborative volume mark the launch of a multi-year research initiative undertaken by the University of Wales Centre for Advanced Welsh and Celtic Studies CAWCS]: Ancient Britain and the Atlantic Zone ABrAZo]. Contributors: (Archaeology) Barry Cunliffe; Raimund Karl; Amilcar Guerra; (Genetics) Brian McEvoy & Daniel Bradley; Stephen Oppenheimer; Ellen Rrvik; (Language & Literature) Graham Isaac; David Parsons; John T. Koch; Philip Freeman; Dagmar S. Wodtko.

The Scots, A Genetic Journey
Moffat & Wilson

“Now it appears that S145 (L21) also travelled along these (Atlantic) trading routes. The marker probably originated in southern France or northern Iberia and people carrying it came to Ireland and western Scotland. This was not a wave of migration but a series of small movements over time, probably in the millennium between 2,500 BC and 1,500 BC”.


R1a and R1b history:
Anatole Klyosov

 http://www.turkicworld.org/turkic/60_Genetics/Klyosov2010DNK-GenealogyEn.htm

The part that I found interesting was the following extract which concords with the recent Moffat and Wilson book, "The Scots, A Genetic Journey" and Cunliffe and Koch, "Celtic from the West".

"From the Anatolia, which the carriers of R1b1b2, together with their agglutinative language, reached 6,000 ± 800 years ago (Klyosov, 2008a, b), they continued moving westward toward Europe by two routes. One route went through the Balkans, where the haplogroup R1b1b2 is recorded at about 4,000 years ago (a formal calculation gives 4050 ± 890 years ago). In Sardinia, it dates from the 5,025 ± 630 years ago, Sicily 4,550 ± 1020 years ago, in Italy 4,125 ± 500 years ago, in Slovenia 4,250 ± 600 years ago. Another route went through the Middle East (the common ancestor of the modern carriers of the haplogroup R1b1b2 in Lebanon dates back to 5,300 ± 700 years ago, among the modern Jews 5,150 ± 620 years ago), then on across the North Africa (Algerian Berbers 3,875 ± 670 years ago) to the Atlantic Ocean and on to the Iberian Peninsula (3,750 ± 380 years ago), and further on to Europe (Klyosov, 2009a).

It is very likely that carriers of R1b1b2 reached Iberia 4,800-4,500 years before present, but then they had passed a “population bottleneck”, and reappeared again (through a few survived DNA-lineages) 3,750 ± 380 years ago. This is when a common ancestor of the present-day Basques lived.

Approximately 3,600 years ago that haplogroup is noted in the British Isles. This is the movement of Beaker culture - from the Iberian Peninsula in the British Isles and on the European continent. They are the ancestors of the Proto-Celtics and Proto-Italics, and, probably, Proto-Picts and other “Proto”-R1b1b2 peoples in Europe


Thanks for going to the trouble of posting all of that.  The book Celts from the West certainly sounds interesting.  I have not read it but have seen most of the chapters ideas in other sources.  I actually am a bit of a late convert to the idea that Celtic emerged in the west and the Hubert-derived idea of a Germany-the west is not one I any longer believe in.  Ireland and Spain were clearly part of this although at opposite ends of the nework.  However, I tend to think France (most of which was within the Atlantic network) does tend to get discussed less than it should.  It was the centre of gravity of the network.  I suspect that the Keltoi , the several tribes called Celti and Celtici in Iberia etc and of course Gallia Celtica owe a shared identity to the Atlantic Bronze Age.  It is noticeable that Gallia Celtica and the tribes called Celti and Celtici almost all fall within the Atlantic Bronze age area rather than the central European block.  So I do suspect that the Celtic language did spread inland from the Atlantic.  Its probably time that the Hubert model was finally put to bed because it really is not supported by modern research.  However, I have reason for suspecting the shifts that distinguished Celtic from Italic happened in France rather than Iberia.  Italic-like dialects seem to have existed from Italy , through southern France and all of Atlantic Iberia and survive into the early classical history period.  I believe that this zone was part of an Italic contact network from the later beaker period into the mid Bronze age and that Celtic emerged to the north in Atlantic France and the isles, only spreading into Iberia with the Atlantic Bronze age which reconnected that area with the areas to the north after a period of much less contact from the later beaker period to then, perhaps 1000 years.  That is why I think that Atlantic Iberia had both Celtic and Italic-like Lusitanian side by side.  So, I suppose I believe in Celts from the north-west.  However, that does not mean I dont think IE initially spread in the beaker period, perhaps with Iberia important.  However, I think Celtic emerged through some linguistic shifts among interacting elites somewhat to the north of Iberia during a period when there was stronger elite contact between France, the isles, and the Unetice culture to the east and Iberia was more linked into the likely proto-Italic network.  As for Anatole, I am sceptical of his ideas on the west because they do not tally with most of the other people who look at the issue of R1b in Europe. 
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 09:58:11 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2012, 11:03:47 AM »

Alan,

I am a Francophile so I would love my ancestors to come from "La Belle France". I grew up reading Asterix and Obilix serialised in the Irish Times (in French) and suffered through "De Bello Gallico". I am defending the Iberian route because it have often been overlooked by the propagandists including Caesar and Strabo, guys who never set foot in Ireland.:).
I am not saying there was one route. I am saying there were multiple routes to the Isles including the Great Rivers of Europe, Danube, Rhine, Rhone, Loire, Seine AND also an alternative route by sea via the Balkens, Mediterranean, Gates of Hercules, Iberia, France to the Isles.
Everyone knows that Gaul was the centre of the Celtic world in the Roman period.
I believe that P-Celtic came to the Isles via the continental route and Q-Celtic via the Iberian route.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
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« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2012, 11:09:38 AM »

I wasn't even aware that the book, Celtic From the West, existed. I see from the U.S. Amazon site it is out of stock and costs $80 anyway (that is a lot to pay for a book). It's also not yet available on Kindle. Too bad.

Apparently it was published in June of 2010, so I am wondering how much L21 info it has. I also wonder at seeing Oppenheimer's name among the collaborators. I wonder what that will mean. Some variation on the R1b-Atlantic-cavemen idea, I suspect.
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« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2012, 11:20:35 AM »

I would like to read and possess a good compilation of the current state of the Celtic-from-the-West idea. I find it intriguing and, I must admit, attractive. It also seems to make a lot of sense and to answer a lot of questions that the old Hallstatt/La Tene idea does not.

I see Jean Manco's "Stelae People" idea as possibly buzzing around there in the background, as well. I wonder if that has been considered.

We also need a big update on the Beaker Folk. That would be helpful. Some aDNA results on a few of them would be more than nice.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 11:20:57 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2012, 11:25:17 AM »

Alan,

I am a Francophile so I would love my ancestors to come from "La Belle France" . . .


I am also a Francophile (and am part French to boot), but I also like the idea of my y-dna ancestors coming from Spain. Of course, I just want to know the truth and hope my own predilections don't get in the way of my learning it. That's where the real battle is.
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« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2012, 12:13:00 PM »

Alan,

Of course a major hub in the Atlantic Facade was Morbihan especially for communication between  the Atlantic, The Isles and Iron Age Halstatt and Le Tene and it was a major hub in the Atlantic, Megalithic, Copper and Bronze Ages.
However if you look at the coastal migration path from Anatolia the major hubs on the Iberian coast were Tartessian including Huevla and Rio Tinto  for copper mining, Tagus and Galicia. Much of the recent research and publications including Cunliffe & Koch, Moffat & Wilson and Klyosov also agree with this route.

One of the major conferences on the subject was "Celtic from the West". The contributions of Cunliffe, Koch, McEvoy and Bradley are particularly interesting.

Here are some of the highlights:

Part 1. Archealogy

Celtization from the West,
the contribution of architecture.
Barry Cunliffe.
Fig 1.1 Relative density of ancient ‘Celtic looking’ place names. Hot spots on the atlantic Façade including Iberia..
Fig 1.3 Greek knowledge of the Celts in the age of Hecataeus and Herodotus. Largely confined to the Mediterranean and Black Sea. Greeks and Romans are not a reliable source for commentary on the Isles as much of their knowledge was second hand.
Fig 1.4 A cognitive geography of the Atlantic Zone as it might have been viewed by an Atlantic mariner, showing major rivers and inlets of Iberia and France.
Fig 1.5 Enclave colonisation. Europe in the period c 5500 - 4100 showing the two principal routes by which the Neolithic way of life spread through Europe from the southern Balkans, the overland spread via the Danube and North European Plain and the Mediterranean route by sea ultimately to the Atlantic coast of Iberia.
Fig 1.6 The distribution of megalithic tombs shows them to be essentially an Atlantic phenomenon. The earliest tombs  - passage graves dating c 4,500 - 3,500 BC - have a maritime distribution, suggesting that the beliefs and the technologies behind the construction was along the Atlantic seaways.
Fig 1.7 The distribution of jadeite axes from their source in the Western Alps across Europe. The distribution vividly displays the exchange networks then in operation.
Fig 1.8 The distribution of Maritime Bell Beaker in Atlantic Europe during the 3rd Millennium, the crucial nodes in this network were the Tagus estuary and the Morbihan, while major hinterland routes followed the navigable rivers. The map indicates the initial movements were maritime. Trade routes with Ireland and Southern Britain for copper and tin.
Fig 1.9 The extent of the Bell Beaker complex 2700-2200 BC. Major corridors of communication by sea and river. Mediterranean, Atlantic, Danube, Rhine,
Fig 1.10 The interaction of the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker Complexes c2500 BC. North European Plain.

The Celts from everywhere and nowhere. Raiumund Karl.
Different origins of Celtic cultural features with Linguistic Celtic origin along the Atlantic Façade, Archaeological ‘La Tene’ origin in central Europe and Historic ‘Druidic’ origin in the Isles.

Newly discovered inscriptions from the south-west of the Iberian peninsula. Tartessian. Amilcar Guerra.
An analysis of about 50 newly discovered stelae fromTartessian. Several photographs and sketches.

Part 2: Genetics.

Western Celts?
A genetic impression of Britain in Atlantic Europe. Ellen C. Royrvik.
Analysis of MC1R ‘red hair’ frequencies.
Map of Genetic variation in Europe.
Fig. 4.6 shows a Gaulish expansion leading to Iberia, Western France and the Isles.
Fig 4.7 shows a rough Highland and Lowland divide of the Isles with the south east more La Tene Gaulish and the West including Ireland representing a more pan Celtic profile.
Irish Genetics and the Celts. Brian McEvoy and Daniel Bradley.
Fig 5.1 Genetic contour map of Europe showing contours from Anatolia (SE) to the Isles (NW).
Fig 5.2 Genetic map of the Isles calculated from 300,000 SNPs spread across the autosomal genome showing Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England.
Fig 5.3 Contour map showing the geographic frequency distribution of the Irish Modal Haplogroup (IMH) and closely related Y-chromosones showing the NW Ireland hot spots.
Fig 5.4 Illustrative Genealogy of the Ui Neill dynasty (and derived surnames) from the 5th C to the present day.  Future testing will provide further insights as well as generating fresh debate on the Irish past.
A reanalysis of multiple prehistoric immigrations to Britain and Ireland aimed at identifying the Celtic contributions. Stephen Oppenheimer.
Fig 6.1 Map of Europe with frequency of ancient place names which were Celtic with hotspots in NW France, Iberia and the Isles.
Fig 6.2 Frequency distribution of genetic Haplogroup R1b. The densest gene flow follows the Atlantic façade, thus favouring Ireland which was then part of the continent.
Fig 6.3 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroups Irb2 (M26) and Irb* (P37.2). The hotspots and possible homeland of Irb in the Balkens with Irb2 further to the West.
Fig 6.4 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroup J2 (M12) in Europe showing expansion from the Balkens and hot spots in SE and NW Iberia. (Cruciani)
Fig 6.5 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroup E3b1a2 in Europe with expansion from the Balkens. Cruciani.
Fig 6.6 Principal Componants Ananysis of Y Chromosones in Western Europe using R1b and R1a1 and I1b2 and I1a showing a gradient from Ireland via the Isles, Continent to Scandanavia.

Part 3 Language and Literature

Origen of the Celtic Languages. G.R. Isaac.
An analysis of the Indo European languages.
Tracking the course of the savage tongue. David N. Parsons.
Fig 8.1 British River names.
Fig 8.2-8.5 Various maps of ancient Europe showing occurrence of ‘~briga’, ‘~duno’, ‘~duro’,’~mag’ names. Many in Iberia.
Paradigm Shift? Interpreting Tartessian as Celtic. John T. Koch.
Fig 9.1 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae, Phoenician colonies, and Tartessian inscriptions. Shows Keltoi Tartessos region.
Fig 9.1 Celtic Expansion from Halstatt/La Tele central Europe.
Fig 9.3 The Ancient Celtic Languages. Shows Halstatt, Early La Tene, Urnfield and Atlantic Bronze Age with sharp division of Goidelic, Brittonic and gaulish.
Tartessian Inscriptions: There follows over 70 detailed photographs and transcriptions of stelae many of them with depictions of warriors and their their epitaphs.
“Where the evidence of Tartessos and Tartessian changes the picture is in showing that one of the most dynamic regions influencing Ireland and Britain during the period c 1300 – c900 BC was probably itself Celtic speaking and also in contact with and receiving influences from non Indo European partners in the eastern Meditteranean and north Africa.
Tartessian Linguistic Elements: A detailed alphabet and index of names and analysis of the grammar follows.
Ancient References to Tartessos. A very interesting compendium of classical references to Tartessos from Greeks, Romans, Assyrians and Hebrews, ranging from Aristotle,Cicero, Hecataeus, Herodotus, Livy, Ovid, Pliny the Elder, Seneca, Strabo, Theopompus and biblical references from Genesis, Kings, Chronicles, Psalm, Jeremiah, Jonah.

The Problem of Lusitanian. Dagmar S. Wodtko.
The core region inhabited by Lusitanian’s seems to have comprised the lands between the Douro and Tejo in northern Portugal.

Celtic from the West
Cunliffe & Koch

This book is an exploration of the new idea that the Celtic languages originated in the Atlantic Zone during the Bronze Age, approached from various perspectives: pro and con, archaeology, genetics, and philology. This 'Celtic Atlantic Bronze Age' theory represents a major departure from the long-established, but increasingly problematic scenario in which the story of the Ancient Celtic languages and that of peoples called Keltoi 'Celts' are closely bound up with the archaeology of the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures of Iron Age west-central Europe. The 'Celtic from the West' proposal was first presented in Barry Cunliffe's Facing the Ocean (2001) and has subsequently found resonance amongst geneticists. It provoked controversy on the part of some linguists, though is significantly in accord with John Koch's findings in Tartessian (2009). The present collection is intended to pursue the question further in order to determine whether this earlier and more westerly starting point might now be developed as a more robust foundation for Celtic studies. As well as having this specific aim, a more general purpose of Celtic from the West is to bring to an English-language readership some of the rapidly unfolding and too often neglected evidence of the pre-Roman peoples and languages of the western Iberian Peninsula. Celtic from the West is an outgrowth of a multidisciplinary conference held at the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth in December 2008. In addition to 11 chapters, the book includes 45 distribution maps and a further 80 illustrations. The conference and collaborative volume mark the launch of a multi-year research initiative undertaken by the University of Wales Centre for Advanced Welsh and Celtic Studies CAWCS]: Ancient Britain and the Atlantic Zone ABrAZo]. Contributors: (Archaeology) Barry Cunliffe; Raimund Karl; Amilcar Guerra; (Genetics) Brian McEvoy & Daniel Bradley; Stephen Oppenheimer; Ellen Rrvik; (Language & Literature) Graham Isaac; David Parsons; John T. Koch; Philip Freeman; Dagmar S. Wodtko.

The Scots, A Genetic Journey
Moffat & Wilson

“Now it appears that S145 (L21) also travelled along these (Atlantic) trading routes. The marker probably originated in southern France or northern Iberia and people carrying it came to Ireland and western Scotland. This was not a wave of migration but a series of small movements over time, probably in the millennium between 2,500 BC and 1,500 BC”.


R1a and R1b history:
Anatole Klyosov

 http://www.turkicworld.org/turkic/60_Genetics/Klyosov2010DNK-GenealogyEn.htm

The part that I found interesting was the following extract which concords with the recent Moffat and Wilson book, "The Scots, A Genetic Journey" and Cunliffe and Koch, "Celtic from the West".

"From the Anatolia, which the carriers of R1b1b2, together with their agglutinative language, reached 6,000 ± 800 years ago (Klyosov, 2008a, b), they continued moving westward toward Europe by two routes. One route went through the Balkans, where the haplogroup R1b1b2 is recorded at about 4,000 years ago (a formal calculation gives 4050 ± 890 years ago). In Sardinia, it dates from the 5,025 ± 630 years ago, Sicily 4,550 ± 1020 years ago, in Italy 4,125 ± 500 years ago, in Slovenia 4,250 ± 600 years ago. Another route went through the Middle East (the common ancestor of the modern carriers of the haplogroup R1b1b2 in Lebanon dates back to 5,300 ± 700 years ago, among the modern Jews 5,150 ± 620 years ago), then on across the North Africa (Algerian Berbers 3,875 ± 670 years ago) to the Atlantic Ocean and on to the Iberian Peninsula (3,750 ± 380 years ago), and further on to Europe (Klyosov, 2009a).

It is very likely that carriers of R1b1b2 reached Iberia 4,800-4,500 years before present, but then they had passed a “population bottleneck”, and reappeared again (through a few survived DNA-lineages) 3,750 ± 380 years ago. This is when a common ancestor of the present-day Basques lived.

Approximately 3,600 years ago that haplogroup is noted in the British Isles. This is the movement of Beaker culture - from the Iberian Peninsula in the British Isles and on the European continent. They are the ancestors of the Proto-Celtics and Proto-Italics, and, probably, Proto-Picts and other “Proto”-R1b1b2 peoples in Europe


Thanks for going to the trouble of posting all of that.  The book Celts from the West certainly sounds interesting.  I have not read it but have seen most of the chapters ideas in other sources.  I actually am a bit of a late convert to the idea that Celtic emerged in the west and the Hubert-derived idea of a Germany-the west is not one I any longer believe in.  Ireland and Spain were clearly part of this although at opposite ends of the nework.  However, I tend to think France (most of which was within the Atlantic network) does tend to get discussed less than it should.  It was the centre of gravity of the network.  I suspect that the Keltoi , the several tribes called Celti and Celtici in Iberia etc and of course Gallia Celtica owe a shared identity to the Atlantic Bronze Age.  It is noticeable that Gallia Celtica and the tribes called Celti and Celtici almost all fall within the Atlantic Bronze age area rather than the central European block.  So I do suspect that the Celtic language did spread inland from the Atlantic.  Its probably time that the Hubert model was finally put to bed because it really is not supported by modern research.  However, I have reason for suspecting the shifts that distinguished Celtic from Italic happened in France rather than Iberia.  Italic-like dialects seem to have existed from Italy , through southern France and all of Atlantic Iberia and survive into the early classical history period.  I believe that this zone was part of an Italic contact network from the later beaker period into the mid Bronze age and that Celtic emerged to the north in Atlantic France and the isles, only spreading into Iberia with the Atlantic Bronze age which reconnected that area with the areas to the north after a period of much less contact from the later beaker period to then, perhaps 1000 years.  That is why I think that Atlantic Iberia had both Celtic and Italic-like Lusitanian side by side.  So, I suppose I believe in Celts from the north-west.  However, that does not mean I dont think IE initially spread in the beaker period, perhaps with Iberia important.  However, I think Celtic emerged through some linguistic shifts among interacting elites somewhat to the north of Iberia during a period when there was stronger elite contact between France, the isles, and the Unetice culture to the east and Iberia was more linked into the likely proto-Italic network.  As for Anatole, I am sceptical of his ideas on the west because they do not tally with most of the other people who look at the issue of R1b in Europe. 

If Celtic spread from the West, what language did its precursors further east speak?
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Ysearch: 4PSCK



alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2012, 12:55:52 PM »

Alan,

I am a Francophile so I would love my ancestors to come from "La Belle France". I grew up reading Asterix and Obilix serialised in the Irish Times (in French) and suffered through "De Bello Gallico". I am defending the Iberian route because it have often been overlooked by the propagandists including Caesar and Strabo, guys who never set foot in Ireland.:).
I am not saying there was one route. I am saying there were multiple routes to the Isles including the Great Rivers of Europe, Danube, Rhine, Rhone, Loire, Seine AND also an alternative route by sea via the Balkens, Mediterranean, Gates of Hercules, Iberia, France to the Isles.
Everyone knows that Gaul was the centre of the Celtic world in the Roman period.
I believe that P-Celtic came to the Isles via the continental route and Q-Celtic via the Iberian route.


It seems quite likely that in the Bronze Age all Celts spoke Q-Celtic and it was just around the start of the Iron Age that the P-Q change started to spread.  It may be that Lepontic (associated with the late urnfield spread into north Italy may have been where P-Celtic arose first.  It has been suggested that the P change may have happened there through contact with Etruscan although Rhaetian in the northAlpine area was probably Etruscan related too so perhaps P-Celtic developed in the north Alpine area.  There the followed a period in the Hallstatt D period where there was a strong and very prestigious connection between the west-central/west Alpine area and that part of Italy.  I think that is possibly when the P change spread through elite contacts through parts of Europe except those who were sort of detached from the network of that stage like Ireland and Spain.  Ireland was still linked to the network in the Halstatt C period but not the Hallstatt D.  This suggests that the P-Q change spread first in the Hallstatt D and subsequent La Tene eras.  In western Europe I think this was often through elite emulation although in some areas, once established, it could have spread by migration.  Prior to Hallstatt D I dont believe there was a P-Q division in temperate western or NW Europe. and so it is not possible to attribute any significance to this division until around then.  In the Atlantic Celts model, this would mean that the P-Q change did not exist during the Atlantic Bronze Age.  So, in short I dont think the P-Q division really helps us out in establishing what places were linked with other places in the Bronze Age.  Dont get me wrong, I am a convert to the importance of the Atlantic Bronze Age but not exactly as presented.  

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2012, 01:20:33 PM »

Another thing I wonder is if U152 spread into Italy from the north as the U152 variance seems to hint, then if it is associated with the spread of Italic, it kind of suggests that the source population to the north at the time was Italic rather than Celtic.  If Italic and U152 are associated with the Villenova urnfielders then this would indicate Italic, not Celtic was spoken to the north at the time c. 1500BC???.  That may support the Atlantic origin of Celtic model and suggest Celtic had not reached into the north Alpine area at that time.  However, by the time of the Gollasecca culture Celtic may have arrived into the north Alpine area in order for it to be transferred to Italy.  That could place the arrival of Celtic (not necessarily throrugh conquestt but maybe elite contact with the west) in the north Alpine area c. 1000BC or thereabouts. 
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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2012, 08:01:48 PM »

So, does anyone here actually have the book, Celtic From the West?

Want to tell us about it?
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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2012, 09:34:23 PM »

So, does anyone here actually have the book, Celtic From the West?

Want to tell us about it?

I don't have it, but there's a table of contents at this site:
http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm/ID/88298

and there's a pretty detailed review here:
http://tinyurl.com/7mccvxw

Given the publication date, I share your doubt that the genetic information in it is current enough really to knock our socks off.  But further work along these lines is being undertaken. One can hope that someone in academe may be watching the relevant discussions and discoveries in genetic genealogy -- which are clearly happening faster than juried papers can be ground out, and faster than the academic press generally can deal with them.

Within the past couple of days I've been playing with data tables in Busby et al, 2011.  The main table is boiled down to 10-marker haplotypes, allegedly slow ones -- all but one (DYS438) found in a 25-marker test at FTDNA, and that "high" resolution one is number 37.  Busby, et al is not a fertile field for guessing at STR-based subclades ("clusters").  Of course, he didn't want us to; but it's such fun.  And sometimes we are right.

Also, earlier last week I finished reading my Christmas present, Surnames, DNA & Family History (Oxford press, Sept. 2011), in which the best haplotypes have 17 markers.  One grows a little impatient, trying to reconcile these latest academically respectable sources with the far better data we get, almost hourly, from our online contact network.  It's not nice to point fingers, but, take this new Oxford book: its Foreword was signed in June, 2010.  It was off the press fifteen months later, and it was another 2-3 months before it became available for purchase in the USA.  (For whatever reason, my copy was shipped from Italy.)  Meanwhile, 1000 Genomes, and numerous selected WTY, projects have filled the ISOGG tree with new SNPs... etc.  None of that can possibly be considered in a Christmas, 2011 book that has effectively been "in press" for about 18 months.
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« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2012, 04:36:24 PM »

Alan,

Of course a major hub in the Atlantic Facade was Morbihan especially for communication between  the Atlantic, The Isles and Iron Age Halstatt and Le Tene and it was a major hub in the Atlantic, Megalithic, Copper and Bronze Ages.
However if you look at the coastal migration path from Anatolia the major hubs on the Iberian coast were Tartessian including Huevla and Rio Tinto  for copper mining, Tagus and Galicia. Much of the recent research and publications including Cunliffe & Koch, Moffat & Wilson and Klyosov also agree with this route.

One of the major conferences on the subject was "Celtic from the West". The contributions of Cunliffe, Koch, McEvoy and Bradley are particularly interesting.

Here are some of the highlights:

Part 1. Archealogy

Celtization from the West,
the contribution of architecture.
Barry Cunliffe.
Fig 1.1 Relative density of ancient ‘Celtic looking’ place names. Hot spots on the atlantic Façade including Iberia..
Fig 1.3 Greek knowledge of the Celts in the age of Hecataeus and Herodotus. Largely confined to the Mediterranean and Black Sea. Greeks and Romans are not a reliable source for commentary on the Isles as much of their knowledge was second hand.
Fig 1.4 A cognitive geography of the Atlantic Zone as it might have been viewed by an Atlantic mariner, showing major rivers and inlets of Iberia and France.
Fig 1.5 Enclave colonisation. Europe in the period c 5500 - 4100 showing the two principal routes by which the Neolithic way of life spread through Europe from the southern Balkans, the overland spread via the Danube and North European Plain and the Mediterranean route by sea ultimately to the Atlantic coast of Iberia.
Fig 1.6 The distribution of megalithic tombs shows them to be essentially an Atlantic phenomenon. The earliest tombs  - passage graves dating c 4,500 - 3,500 BC - have a maritime distribution, suggesting that the beliefs and the technologies behind the construction was along the Atlantic seaways.
Fig 1.7 The distribution of jadeite axes from their source in the Western Alps across Europe. The distribution vividly displays the exchange networks then in operation.
Fig 1.8 The distribution of Maritime Bell Beaker in Atlantic Europe during the 3rd Millennium, the crucial nodes in this network were the Tagus estuary and the Morbihan, while major hinterland routes followed the navigable rivers. The map indicates the initial movements were maritime. Trade routes with Ireland and Southern Britain for copper and tin.
Fig 1.9 The extent of the Bell Beaker complex 2700-2200 BC. Major corridors of communication by sea and river. Mediterranean, Atlantic, Danube, Rhine,
Fig 1.10 The interaction of the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker Complexes c2500 BC. North European Plain.

The Celts from everywhere and nowhere. Raiumund Karl.
Different origins of Celtic cultural features with Linguistic Celtic origin along the Atlantic Façade, Archaeological ‘La Tene’ origin in central Europe and Historic ‘Druidic’ origin in the Isles.

Newly discovered inscriptions from the south-west of the Iberian peninsula. Tartessian. Amilcar Guerra.
An analysis of about 50 newly discovered stelae fromTartessian. Several photographs and sketches.

Part 2: Genetics.

Western Celts?
A genetic impression of Britain in Atlantic Europe. Ellen C. Royrvik.
Analysis of MC1R ‘red hair’ frequencies.
Map of Genetic variation in Europe.
Fig. 4.6 shows a Gaulish expansion leading to Iberia, Western France and the Isles.
Fig 4.7 shows a rough Highland and Lowland divide of the Isles with the south east more La Tene Gaulish and the West including Ireland representing a more pan Celtic profile.
Irish Genetics and the Celts. Brian McEvoy and Daniel Bradley.
Fig 5.1 Genetic contour map of Europe showing contours from Anatolia (SE) to the Isles (NW).
Fig 5.2 Genetic map of the Isles calculated from 300,000 SNPs spread across the autosomal genome showing Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England.
Fig 5.3 Contour map showing the geographic frequency distribution of the Irish Modal Haplogroup (IMH) and closely related Y-chromosones showing the NW Ireland hot spots.
Fig 5.4 Illustrative Genealogy of the Ui Neill dynasty (and derived surnames) from the 5th C to the present day.  Future testing will provide further insights as well as generating fresh debate on the Irish past.
A reanalysis of multiple prehistoric immigrations to Britain and Ireland aimed at identifying the Celtic contributions. Stephen Oppenheimer.
Fig 6.1 Map of Europe with frequency of ancient place names which were Celtic with hotspots in NW France, Iberia and the Isles.
Fig 6.2 Frequency distribution of genetic Haplogroup R1b. The densest gene flow follows the Atlantic façade, thus favouring Ireland which was then part of the continent.
Fig 6.3 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroups Irb2 (M26) and Irb* (P37.2). The hotspots and possible homeland of Irb in the Balkens with Irb2 further to the West.
Fig 6.4 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroup J2 (M12) in Europe showing expansion from the Balkens and hot spots in SE and NW Iberia. (Cruciani)
Fig 6.5 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroup E3b1a2 in Europe with expansion from the Balkens. Cruciani.
Fig 6.6 Principal Componants Ananysis of Y Chromosones in Western Europe using R1b and R1a1 and I1b2 and I1a showing a gradient from Ireland via the Isles, Continent to Scandanavia.

Part 3 Language and Literature

Origen of the Celtic Languages. G.R. Isaac.
An analysis of the Indo European languages.
Tracking the course of the savage tongue. David N. Parsons.
Fig 8.1 British River names.
Fig 8.2-8.5 Various maps of ancient Europe showing occurrence of ‘~briga’, ‘~duno’, ‘~duro’,’~mag’ names. Many in Iberia.
Paradigm Shift? Interpreting Tartessian as Celtic. John T. Koch.
Fig 9.1 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae, Phoenician colonies, and Tartessian inscriptions. Shows Keltoi Tartessos region.
Fig 9.1 Celtic Expansion from Halstatt/La Tele central Europe.
Fig 9.3 The Ancient Celtic Languages. Shows Halstatt, Early La Tene, Urnfield and Atlantic Bronze Age with sharp division of Goidelic, Brittonic and gaulish.
Tartessian Inscriptions: There follows over 70 detailed photographs and transcriptions of stelae many of them with depictions of warriors and their their epitaphs.
“Where the evidence of Tartessos and Tartessian changes the picture is in showing that one of the most dynamic regions influencing Ireland and Britain during the period c 1300 – c900 BC was probably itself Celtic speaking and also in contact with and receiving influences from non Indo European partners in the eastern Meditteranean and north Africa.
Tartessian Linguistic Elements: A detailed alphabet and index of names and analysis of the grammar follows.
Ancient References to Tartessos. A very interesting compendium of classical references to Tartessos from Greeks, Romans, Assyrians and Hebrews, ranging from Aristotle,Cicero, Hecataeus, Herodotus, Livy, Ovid, Pliny the Elder, Seneca, Strabo, Theopompus and biblical references from Genesis, Kings, Chronicles, Psalm, Jeremiah, Jonah.

The Problem of Lusitanian. Dagmar S. Wodtko.
The core region inhabited by Lusitanian’s seems to have comprised the lands between the Douro and Tejo in northern Portugal.

Celtic from the West
Cunliffe & Koch

This book is an exploration of the new idea that the Celtic languages originated in the Atlantic Zone during the Bronze Age, approached from various perspectives: pro and con, archaeology, genetics, and philology. This 'Celtic Atlantic Bronze Age' theory represents a major departure from the long-established, but increasingly problematic scenario in which the story of the Ancient Celtic languages and that of peoples called Keltoi 'Celts' are closely bound up with the archaeology of the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures of Iron Age west-central Europe. The 'Celtic from the West' proposal was first presented in Barry Cunliffe's Facing the Ocean (2001) and has subsequently found resonance amongst geneticists. It provoked controversy on the part of some linguists, though is significantly in accord with John Koch's findings in Tartessian (2009). The present collection is intended to pursue the question further in order to determine whether this earlier and more westerly starting point might now be developed as a more robust foundation for Celtic studies. As well as having this specific aim, a more general purpose of Celtic from the West is to bring to an English-language readership some of the rapidly unfolding and too often neglected evidence of the pre-Roman peoples and languages of the western Iberian Peninsula. Celtic from the West is an outgrowth of a multidisciplinary conference held at the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth in December 2008. In addition to 11 chapters, the book includes 45 distribution maps and a further 80 illustrations. The conference and collaborative volume mark the launch of a multi-year research initiative undertaken by the University of Wales Centre for Advanced Welsh and Celtic Studies CAWCS]: Ancient Britain and the Atlantic Zone ABrAZo]. Contributors: (Archaeology) Barry Cunliffe; Raimund Karl; Amilcar Guerra; (Genetics) Brian McEvoy & Daniel Bradley; Stephen Oppenheimer; Ellen Rrvik; (Language & Literature) Graham Isaac; David Parsons; John T. Koch; Philip Freeman; Dagmar S. Wodtko.

The Scots, A Genetic Journey
Moffat & Wilson

“Now it appears that S145 (L21) also travelled along these (Atlantic) trading routes. The marker probably originated in southern France or northern Iberia and people carrying it came to Ireland and western Scotland. This was not a wave of migration but a series of small movements over time, probably in the millennium between 2,500 BC and 1,500 BC”.


R1a and R1b history:
Anatole Klyosov

 http://www.turkicworld.org/turkic/60_Genetics/Klyosov2010DNK-GenealogyEn.htm

The part that I found interesting was the following extract which concords with the recent Moffat and Wilson book, "The Scots, A Genetic Journey" and Cunliffe and Koch, "Celtic from the West".

"From the Anatolia, which the carriers of R1b1b2, together with their agglutinative language, reached 6,000 ± 800 years ago (Klyosov, 2008a, b), they continued moving westward toward Europe by two routes. One route went through the Balkans, where the haplogroup R1b1b2 is recorded at about 4,000 years ago (a formal calculation gives 4050 ± 890 years ago). In Sardinia, it dates from the 5,025 ± 630 years ago, Sicily 4,550 ± 1020 years ago, in Italy 4,125 ± 500 years ago, in Slovenia 4,250 ± 600 years ago. Another route went through the Middle East (the common ancestor of the modern carriers of the haplogroup R1b1b2 in Lebanon dates back to 5,300 ± 700 years ago, among the modern Jews 5,150 ± 620 years ago), then on across the North Africa (Algerian Berbers 3,875 ± 670 years ago) to the Atlantic Ocean and on to the Iberian Peninsula (3,750 ± 380 years ago), and further on to Europe (Klyosov, 2009a).

It is very likely that carriers of R1b1b2 reached Iberia 4,800-4,500 years before present, but then they had passed a “population bottleneck”, and reappeared again (through a few survived DNA-lineages) 3,750 ± 380 years ago. This is when a common ancestor of the present-day Basques lived.

Approximately 3,600 years ago that haplogroup is noted in the British Isles. This is the movement of Beaker culture - from the Iberian Peninsula in the British Isles and on the European continent. They are the ancestors of the Proto-Celtics and Proto-Italics, and, probably, Proto-Picts and other “Proto”-R1b1b2 peoples in Europe


Thanks for going to the trouble of posting all of that.  The book Celts from the West certainly sounds interesting.  I have not read it but have seen most of the chapters ideas in other sources.  I actually am a bit of a late convert to the idea that Celtic emerged in the west and the Hubert-derived idea of a Germany-the west is not one I any longer believe in.  Ireland and Spain were clearly part of this although at opposite ends of the nework.  However, I tend to think France (most of which was within the Atlantic network) does tend to get discussed less than it should.  It was the centre of gravity of the network.  I suspect that the Keltoi , the several tribes called Celti and Celtici in Iberia etc and of course Gallia Celtica owe a shared identity to the Atlantic Bronze Age.  It is noticeable that Gallia Celtica and the tribes called Celti and Celtici almost all fall within the Atlantic Bronze age area rather than the central European block.  So I do suspect that the Celtic language did spread inland from the Atlantic.  Its probably time that the Hubert model was finally put to bed because it really is not supported by modern research.  However, I have reason for suspecting the shifts that distinguished Celtic from Italic happened in France rather than Iberia.  Italic-like dialects seem to have existed from Italy , through southern France and all of Atlantic Iberia and survive into the early classical history period.  I believe that this zone was part of an Italic contact network from the later beaker period into the mid Bronze age and that Celtic emerged to the north in Atlantic France and the isles, only spreading into Iberia with the Atlantic Bronze age which reconnected that area with the areas to the north after a period of much less contact from the later beaker period to then, perhaps 1000 years.  That is why I think that Atlantic Iberia had both Celtic and Italic-like Lusitanian side by side.  So, I suppose I believe in Celts from the north-west.  However, that does not mean I dont think IE initially spread in the beaker period, perhaps with Iberia important.  However, I think Celtic emerged through some linguistic shifts among interacting elites somewhat to the north of Iberia during a period when there was stronger elite contact between France, the isles, and the Unetice culture to the east and Iberia was more linked into the likely proto-Italic network.  As for Anatole, I am sceptical of his ideas on the west because they do not tally with most of the other people who look at the issue of R1b in Europe. 

If Celtic spread from the West, what language did its precursors further east speak?

I think its likely we ought to see the initial phase, quite possibly the beaker phase, and quite possibly the phase of the spread of L11 as a period when a fairly unified west IE spread.  If those things all really do correlate (as the variance calculations appear to suggest) then the next phase would be the breakup into language blocks.  This IMO would have been achieved through elite interaction networks as seen in the Early Bronze Age. Although there would have been contact and low level gene flow we are not talking about invasions or seizing of power.  I think we need to think more of alliances, fosterage, political marriages, movement of traders and craftsmen etc between elites.  You can see zones who are in closer contact with each other than areas beyond the block. 

If Celtic emerged in the Atlantic Bronze Age zone, Italic in the post-beaker contract network to the south (Italy, southern France, west Med, Coastal Iberia), Germanic in the Nordic Bronze zone etc then it is a far question to ask what was spoken in west-central Europe if we are relegating it as non-Celtic.  The short answer is noone knows.  Contra Hubert, placename studies of classic early references to Celtic show the large solid block of Celtic to be confined to the area of north and west Iberian, France, Rhinealnd, part os Switzerland, Belgium, the isles and southern Holland.  Basically its pretty similar to Gaul (and parts f Iberia) with evidence for Celtic names being rare east of the Rhine and north of the Danube.  There is an extension of placenames like a thin finger extending out of this block into Italy and along the Danube and east but this seems to me most likely to correlate with an historically attested late thrust east. 

East Holland, north Germany, southern Scandinavia seems to have been in a different zone known as the Nordic Bronze Age and later in some successor Iron Age groups.  The influence of the west even in the Bronze Age seems to have included Belgium.  In and around Holland there are groups which are like a hybrid of western and Nordic influences and it is quite possible that the Northwestblock idea where you have a group with a language somewhere between Celtic and Germanic developed. 

That leaves the question of west-central Europe beyond the Rhine.  It is possible that it could have been Celtic too IMO.  In the post-beaker Early Bronze Age the pre-Atlantic Bronze Age Atlantic groups such as Irish, Wessex, Amorican, some lesser well known groups in NE France and Belgium were closely linked.  However, they were also linked to the central European Unetice group in central Europe and I wouldnt be surprised if their dialects did evolve together.  While the west became part of the Atlantic Bronze Age (which extended contact south into Atlantic Iberia too) the Unetice group led to the tumulous and then urnfield groups.  They could alternatively have been Celtic or part of another block sitting between Celtic and Nordic.  The only evidence I can think of is the urnfield group which did originate in this central block.  The urnfield areas of SE Spain and southern France, Tuscan and the Rhaetian north Alpine area all seem to be non-Celtic.  Late overlays of IE by Etruscan, Rhaetian, Iberian etc have been suggested along the logic that non-IE does not = pre-IE but I really wonder about that.  It seems that a lot of the Urnfield area on the fringes of the classical world was non-Celtic and even non-IE and you have to wonder how so many areas could have been overlaid between the urnfield era and the earliest classical records.  Its a little suspicious.   However, lets say there was overlay to explain away Iberian, Etruscan, Rhaetian etc in the old Urnfield area, that really only leaves the Ligurian area in terms of urnfield areas who were close enough to the fringes of the classical world to have early mentions.  Perhaps the Ligurians with their apparently thirds strand between Celtic and Italic.  They were close to the point where urnfield had spilled down the Rhone to the Med.  Perhaps a Ligurian-type dialect was present at the other end of the Rhone where it meets the Upper Rhine and then the latter approaches the Upper Danube. 
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« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2012, 01:36:20 PM »

I would also add that the Celts in the Alps and the as you progress along the Danube (those bits of central Europe first brought in the light of classical sources do seem to share the area with a number of other groups who were not Celtic.  The real solid block of Celtic speaking with no other languages apparent is Gallia Celtica, basically France between the Seiine, Loire and Alps.  Elsewhere there is more of a mix at the opening of history.  You could add the isles as an area where there is not much in the way of evidence for non-Celts or other languages.  A very recent study of Celtic placenames in Europe in Classical sources does appear to show the big block of Celtic languages as essentially Gaul, north and west Iberia and the isles.  Further east its like a long thin tail that does seem to correspond with classical references to a relatively late thrust east from Gaul.  The more I think about it the whole Hubert model seems wrong. 
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