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Author Topic: R1b similarities in Central Italy (Tuscany and Umbria)  (Read 1687 times)
Richard Rocca
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« on: January 09, 2012, 11:06:11 AM »

I posted this on DNA-Forums, but I know how passionate Gioiello is about this topic, so I thought I'd duplicate it here. Enjoy!

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Recently someone asked if U152 in Italy is mostly Italic or Celtic. The answer depends on which part of Italy one is referring to. In northern Italy, the old Cisalpine Gaul, the answer is more than likely 'both'. In central Italy, I would be inclined to say mostly Italic.

I compared the overall R1b data for Umbria (Myres et al. 2011) with that of Tuscany (1000 Genomes) and the frequency is almost identical across the board. It is as follows:

   R1b-M269 All
Umbria   52.9%
Tuscany   49.0%
   
   R1b-L51 ALL
Umbria   50.0%
Tuscany   47.1%
   
   R1b-M269(xL11)
Umbria   5.9%
Tuscany   5.9%
   
   R1b-L11 All
Umbria   47.1%
Tuscany   43.1%
   
   R1b-L11(xP312,U106)
Umbria   0.0%
Tuscany   0.0%
   
   R1b-U106
Umbria   5.9%
Tuscany   3.9%
   
   R1b-P312 All
Umbria   41.2%
Tuscany   39.2%
   
   R1b-U152
Umbria   32.4%
Tuscany   29.4%
   
   R1b-P312(xU152,L21)
Umbria   8.8%
Tuscany   9.9% (Includes Z196 samples)
   
   R1b-L21
Umbria   0.0%
Tuscany   0.0%

Most evident is the high U152, low U106 and complete absence L11* and L21. What can we attribute the almost identical U152 frequency to? We can rule out La Tene migrations since Celtic finds are rare in Tuscany. Tuscany and Umbria share a common archaeological tradition of cremation with northern Italy going back to the Proto-Villanovan Culture which itself fell within the alpine Urnfield orbit.
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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2012, 11:23:39 AM »

I thank you very much, Rich, but a friend of mine, a Turk, had already sent me your interesting post. I’d say that I have posted here something about the Urnfield culture, and before on the pile dwellers, testified 7000 YBP in North Italy. My hypothesis is that the same pile dwellers were born in the Adriatic during the slow flood as the sea was rising after the Glaciation. Perhaps it would be useful for you to meditate also on this hypothesis. You know probably that I think that your dates must be multiplied at least for 2.5 for the most ancient times.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2012, 12:27:30 PM »

One similarity I find interesting is the distribution of modern day U152 and the "Vaso Campaniforme" (Bell Beakers) in Northern Italy and Tuscany. Certainly Bell Beakers are found in early Polada pile dwellings. As far as anything prior to Polada, there are obvious cultural breaks between Polada and the prior Remedello Culture. I still have more work to do in that area however.
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2012, 01:53:50 PM »

I am seeing that you have calculated the percentages on 49 Tuscans, but I remember that a 50th was found to belong to haplogroups R (I have written about this also on this site). Anyway the percentage changes a few and the correspondence is interesting. But what should I say about the four of my zone  (Pisa province) I tested and I exclude of course my son?

25% R-M269*
50% R-L23*
25% R-(tested by SMGF and on only 39 markers) –U152, likely DYS492=14: he matched closely Amato from Nicosia (Sicily) who has resulted so, but that he is probably of this clade I have hypothesized by some his values .

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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2012, 02:21:37 PM »

The project sampled 62 unrelated males from Tuscany. Unfortunately 11 did not have their data published.

Of the 51 that had their data published, 27 of 51 (52.9%) were R1b. I checked the 3 that were R1b (xL11) and unfortunately they were all S136- (L50-).
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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2012, 02:41:51 PM »

The project sampled 62 unrelated males from Tuscany. Unfortunately 11 did not have their data published.

Of the 51 that had their data published, 27 of 51 (52.9%) were R1b. I checked the 3 that were R1b (xL11) and unfortunately they were all S136- (L50-).
S136 is my mutation that has nothing to do with L50. Ftdna is wrong on this. S136 (tested by EthnoAncestry like the S says), is a deletion of 9 bp in the region of L50. L50 is the rs 13303711 and L50 – is the ancestral SNP, i.e. C if I am not wrong. Anyway give me your data and let me understand.
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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2012, 02:51:42 PM »

Then these 3 R1b (xL11) could be R-L51, R-L23, R-M269 or upstream clades. It is very important. It seemed very strange that no R1b upstream R-L11 was found in Tuscany.
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2012, 03:24:44 PM »

very interesting.  P312 is certainly very regionally patterned in terms of clades.  This also confirms the L21 projects extreme lack of L21 in Italy.  Confirms again the fall in L21 from NW to SE in western Europe. 

This also appears to confirm that U152 is older, even in Italy where variance is relatively low, than the Celtic movements and surely spread to Italy from north of the Alps at a time before Celtic and Italic were distinct.  Given that U152 in Italy seems to not be as old as north of the Alps, this surely also indicates that Celtic did not develop into a distinct language until quite some time after P312 and its early clades like U152.  I cant remember how much lower Italy's U152 variance was compared to the north side of the Alps but I seem to recall it was substantially less (maybe Mike could dig out the Italy v north of the Alps variances).  This seems to agree with the traditional linguistic ideas that Celtic probably only developed its distinct characteristics until at least the mid 2nd millenium BC.  It also would on the face of it seem to suggest that prior to the development of Celtic somewhere in temperate western Europe that Italic-related languages might have existed north of the Alps.  I think there are hints of this in languages like Ligurian in NW Italy/southern France and Lusitanian in Atlantic Iberia.  I am fast becoming a late convert to the idea that Celtic emerged among the elites of Atlantic and NW Europe rather than near the Alps and the apparent late intrusion of U152 and Italic into Italy does seem to indicate to me that Celtic was not spoken immediately north of the Alps at the point when U152 entered Italy.  Again, hopefully Mike or someone else can re-post the variance for U152 in Italy compared to say SE France/Switzerland/Germany.     
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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2012, 03:28:51 PM »

S136 is my mutation that has nothing to do with L50. Ftdna is wrong on this. S136 (tested by EthnoAncestry like the S says), is a deletion of 9 bp in the region of L50. L50 is the rs 13303711 and L50 – is the ancestral SNP, i.e. C if I am not wrong. Anyway give me your data and let me understand.

Sorry I was not clear - I checked for both the S136 deletion and L50 derived value. All three samples had the ancestral "C" value and no deletions.
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« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2012, 03:54:26 PM »

But which subclade were they? I remember they were labelled R-M207, i.e. R1*. It would be very interesting. Have you deepen this? Anyway two, if I remember well, i.e. about 4% of the most ancient R1* in Tuscany is notworthy. But perhaps they could have some SNPs downstream R1*. But you spoke of R1b, then they were at least R-M343?
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2012, 04:51:07 PM »

But which subclade were they? I remember they were labelled R-M207, i.e. R1*. It would be very interesting. Have you deepen this? Anyway two, if I remember well, i.e. about 4% of the most ancient R1* in Tuscany is notworthy. But perhaps they could have some SNPs downstream R1*. But you spoke of R1b, then they were at least R-M343?

Of the three R1b (xL11) samples, one is L23+L51- and the other two are L23+L51+. The only other R samples were two R1a.
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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2012, 12:49:56 AM »

Of the three R1b (xL11) samples, one is L23+L51- and the other two are L23+L51+. The only other R samples were two R1a.
Thank you, it's a good result for me. I don't know if you know that my theory of the Italian Refugium was based also on the huge presence in Italy of R-L51+. I don't know if you know the map of Argiedude (unfortunately I am not able to send an attachment).

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« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2012, 12:53:41 AM »

Anyway also the R1a could be interesting. I have hypothesized also the origin of R1a from the Italian Refugium, given its presence in Alto Adige/South Tyrol with the most ancient haplogroup, the R1a* (L62) with DYS392=13. And now we find it only in Europe, with a massive presence in the British Isles. No one, for what I know, in India.
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2012, 05:55:20 AM »

148025 George David Brouillard 7-31-1831 - 1-15-1923 France R1b1a2a1a1b3
13 24 14 10 12-16 12 13 12 13 12 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-17-17 11 12 19-21 15 15 17 16 38-38 11 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 15 8 11 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 14 12

15 13 29 24 10 12 13 12,16 1 >>
14 13 29 24 10 11 13 12,16 1 >>
14 13 29 24 10 13 13 12,16 1 >>
14 13 29 24 10 12 13 11,16 1 >>

15 13 29 24 10 12 13 12,16 1 >>
1 15 13 29 24 10 12 13 12,16 10 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 182 Singapore [Indian] Eurasian - Indian Asia
15 13 29 23 10 12 13 12,16 5 >>
15 13 29 24 10 11 13 12,16 5 >>
15 13 29 24 10 13 13 12,16 5 >>
15 13 29 25 10 12 13 12,16 1 >>

1 14 13 29 24 10 11 13 12,16 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 99 Strasbourg, France [French] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
15 13 29 24 10 11 13 12,16 5 >>
14 13 29 24 10 11 13 11,16 2 >>
14 13 29 24 10 11 13 13,16 2 >>
14 13 30 24 10 11 13 12,16 1 >>
14 13 29 23 10 11 13 12,16 1 >>
14 13 29 24 10 11 12 12,16 1 >>

1 14 13 29 24 10 13 13 12,16 13 11 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 455 Central Bohemia, Czech Republic [Czech] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
15 13 29 24 10 13 13 12,16 5 >>
14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,16 34 >>
14 13 29 24 10 13 13 12,15 28 >>
14 13 29 23 10 13 13 12,16 2 >>
14 13 29 24 10 13 13 13,16 2 >>
14 13 29 24 11 13 13 12,16 10 >>
14 12 28 24 10 13 13 12,16 1 >>
14 14 30 24 10 13 13 12,16 1 >>
14 13 29 24 10 14 13 12,16 1 >>

1 14 13 29 24 10 12 13 11,16 12 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 52 Nowy Targ, Poland [Polish] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
14 13 29 24 10 12 13 11,15 7 >>
14 13 29 24 11 12 13 11,16 6 >>
14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,16 34 >>
14 13 29 24 10 11 13 11,16 2 >>

I posted a research on Dna-forums trying to ascertain the origin of R-U152/Z56+. Whilst with DYS392=13 these haplotypes were largely diffused in Europe, by the rare DYS392=12 it seemed concentrated to Italy. Now I am seeing that some new high-varied haplotypes have been published on the U152 project, and mostly come from France and one with DYS392=12, I have done another research on YHRD. These are the results, and everyone may deepen the research by the undisclosed haplotypes. It seems that Europe North of the Alps is well represented. Of course we should exclude those haplotypes with DYS438=10, probably some O3a3c…, but those with 12 or even 13 could belong to hg. U152. Difficult to say if this presence North of the Alps indicates an origin or an ancient expansion from South. Anyway the disclosing of the other haplotypes may give a first answer.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 11:21:16 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2012, 06:42:32 AM »

4 14 13 29 24 10 12 13 11,15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
2 14 13 29 24 10 12 13 11,15 13 11 15 19 15 18 23 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 10 12 13 11,15 12 12 14 18 16 17 23 12 >>
2 of 180 Granada, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 1177 Antioquia, Colombia [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 380 Southern Poland, Poland [Polish] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 792 Central Portugal, Portugal [Portuguese] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 493 Eastern Norway, Norway [Norwegian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 218 Tuscany, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

2 14 13 29 24 11 12 13 11,16 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
2 14 13 29 24 11 12 13 11,16 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 12 13 11,16 12 12 14 18 16 18 23 11 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 12 13 11,16 12 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
2 of 427 Córdoba, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
1 of 108 Chubut, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
1 of 270 El Salvador [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 365 Mendoza, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
1 of 125 Lyon, France [French] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

1 15 13 29 23 10 12 13 12,16 10 11 15 19 15 19 20 14 >>
1 15 13 29 23 10 12 13 12,16 10 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 13 29 23 10 12 13 12,16 10 12 14 19 15 19 20
 12 >>
1 15 13 29 23 10 12 13 12,16 10 13 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 13 29 23 10 12 13 12,16 10 13 15 19 15 17 19 12 >>
2 of 119 Lhasa, China [Tibetan] East Asian - Sino-Tibetan - Tibeto-Burman Asia
1 of 153 U-Tsang, China [Tibetan] East Asian - Sino-Tibetan - Tibeto-Burman Asia
1 of 1093 Chungcheong, South Korea [Korean] East Asian - Korean Asia
1 of 1145 South Korea [Korean] East Asian - Korean Asia

1 15 13 29 25 10 12 13 12,16 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 90 Asturias, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

These are the most meaningful haplotypes. Excluding the Asian ones, probably some kind of O3a3c, it seems to me that these data fit perfectly with what I have said in another thread and I report below, if we take present that the expansion from Italy began from Iberia and that Argentine gets more than 52% of Italian surnames.

Of course I agree perfectly with you. In which is different what you say from my theory?
1)   Italian Refugium
2)   7500 years ago “Italian” agriculturalists by sea peopled Spain and Portugal coming from many places of Italian Peninsula: Sardinia, Arene Candide in Liguria (but firstly they came from Tuscany)
3)   They carried G2a, E-V13, but I think also some R-P312, from which derived the particular Spanish haplogroups, R-M167, R-M153. but probably also R-L21, which in fact lack in Italy (but some R-L21 in the Lake Region, see Argiedude, could already be present). Probably some R-U152* was present: see the Mexicans found in 1000 Genome Project by Richard Rocca with at least 18 independent mutations…
Why I think that Spain isn’t at the origin of R? Because there lack the haplogroups upstream P-312, which are largely present in Italy, which get the “path” like I have always said, and the last communication of Rich Rocca about the 2 R-L51 in Tuscans (about 4%), the percentage found by Argiedude and me in Central-North Italy and lowest out of it. The other point is the R-L23/L150- of the Italian Romitti. But Italy has also the R1b1*, the R-M18, the R-M269 with YCAII=17-23 etc.
 

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« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2012, 10:18:13 AM »

Gioiello, perhaps you could help me. I've seen the following on the internet:

I Rinaldoniani erano alti e dolicocefali. Fra il  XVIII e il XVII sec. a.C. scomparvero in modo repentino e totale. Sul territorio già da loro occupato comparve una nuova popolazione di statura bassa e cranio brachicefalo. Ciò dovrebbe voler dire che essi morirono tutti per una pandemia o furono sterminati dalla popolazione subentrante oppure furono scacciati o comunque emigrarono. La facies culturale che appare con l’avvento della nuova popolazione è eterogenea ed ha scarsa originalità. Scomparve attorno al XV-XIV sec. per l’avvento della cultura Appenninica.

So basically it states that the people of the Rinaldone Culture were tall dolichocephalics who were completely replaced by short brachycephalics. As you know, short brachycephalics are the typical classification of the 'Alpine' type. I have some books that talk about the Rinaldone Culture but nothing about cranial types of them or their successors. Do you have any references in your library?
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« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2012, 11:09:50 AM »

Gioiello, perhaps you could help me. I've seen the following on the internet:
[..] So basically it states that the people of the Rinaldone Culture were tall dolichocephalics who were completely replaced by short brachycephalics. As you know, short brachycephalics are the typical classification of the 'Alpine' type. I have some books that talk about the Rinaldone Culture but nothing about cranial types of them or their successors. Do you have any references in your library?
I am not at home now, but I have at my home the most important
work about ancient Italy, in many volumes, in Italian of course. I’ll read
it this afternoon and I’ll let you know what there is about Rinaldone Culture.
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« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2012, 11:19:44 AM »

Anyway about persons "tall and dolichocephalics" I would remember you that the inhabitants of Garfagnana and nearby (think to the composer Puccini for instance, and I remember my maternal grandfather Rinaldo Vagelli) were "tall and dolichocephalics" and Garfagnana gets the highest percentage of R1b in Italy. My grandfather was tall m1,81 when Italians were on average 1,63. Now we are (Tuscany, but the whole North Italy) 1,76 on average, not much less than North Europe, and here R1b is 60/70%: see Ferri, Modena Province=67,7%.
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« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2012, 11:25:00 AM »

I found another reference as follows:

Invece l'umanita legata alle culture di Rinaldone e del Gaudo si caratterizza per due tipologie leggermente divere tra loro. La prima, difussanell'Italia centro-tirrenica, non e ben definita, ma richiama tratti delle antiche forme mediterranee neolitiche (as es. la dolicocefalia), su cui si innestano arrivi forse del Nord Italia con caratteri piuttosto definiti, ma mai rozzi. Tra i siti di ritrovamento ricordiamo quelli della Valle del Fiora, (Parenti Messeri, 1970, Mallegni, 1984, 1985). Ponte San Pietro, Viterbo (Parenti 1967; Mallegni 1995) Grotta San Giuseppe, Isola d'Elba (Mallegni 1972, 2001; Bedini et al, 1999).

By the way, I am tall (m1,85) and have a Mesaticephalic (hybrid) skull.
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« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2012, 12:14:42 PM »

I'll consult my books at home, anyway I have found this on the web: 

“Etruscan was one of the first branches  to separate from the main Indo-European speech community. Coming from Central Europe pre-Etruscan Indo-European migrated westward and eventually settled Central-Italy. These intruders may be equated with Rinaldone Culture, which dates from around 2700 BCE and which contains unmistakable Indo-European culture elements”

Allan R. Bomhard, John C. Kerns, The Nostratic macrofamily: a study in distant linguistic relationship, p.33.

I have found this quoting, and probably you know it is not different from what I am supporting from many years. My hypothesis is, of course, that everything starts from the Italian Refugium and that Central European Cultures came from there.
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« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2012, 12:19:00 PM »

The authors you quote are all teachers of the Pisa University (Mallegni, Bedini), near where I live.
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« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2012, 01:51:02 PM »

By reading some of the papers which compose this work (Popoli e civiltà dell’Italia antica, Vol 1, by Antonio Radmilli, Bibloteca di Storia patria, Roma 1974) I have the impression that infinite findings have been done and reported but that it lacks a synthesis and I don’t know if it has been done after. They repeat some stereotypes: “La cultura di Rinaldone affermatasi nell’Italia centrale presenta affinità con quella del Gaudo, per cui fino a pochi anni fa si parlava di una cultura Rinaldone-Gaudo, che secondo Pia Lavosa Zambotti sarebbe stata introdotta in Italia da popolazioni di pastori protolatini provenienti dai Balcani” (p. 449) etc.
Certainly the findings are infinite and this is already a lot for Italy.
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« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2012, 04:29:09 PM »

Looks like this would be a nice list of literature to have:

I resti scheletrici umani del Neolitico ligure / Raffaello Parenti, Piero Messeri. In: Palaeontographia Italica, vol. 50.

Resti umani dell'Età del bronzo in Toscana. In: Actes du 4. Congres International du Quaternaire : Rome-Pise, Aout -Septembre 1953. Roma : Istituto nazionale di paleontologia umana, pp. 666-673.

Studio antropologico d'un gruppo di scheletri eneolitici, riferibili alla Civilta di Rinaldone. Parte 2. : Tipologia gruppale. In: Archivio per l'antropologia e la etnologia, vol. 95, pp. 6-27.

Gli scheletri umani di Ponte S. Pietro (cultura Rinaldone) nel contesto antropologico della provincia tirrenica, all'epoca dei primi metalli. In: Archivio per l'antropologia e la etnologia, vol. 97, pp. 18-34.
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« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2012, 01:50:18 AM »

I’ll try to get these papers. You know I live near Pisa and here there is one of the best Institutes of Paleontology, that of Prof Mallegni ad other illustrious scholars. I’d be grateful to you if you could help Ian Logan, who is one of the best friends of mine, in his researches.
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« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2012, 09:12:45 AM »

Great Gioiello, I saw the email and I have responded to Ian. Hopefully it will help him as well. My wife and I are planning to go to Tuscany in the spring, but somewhere outside of Florence. If I have time, I'd like to take a day trip to the city of Pisa as I've never been there.
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