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Author Topic: R1b M269-, M269+ L23-, L23+ ... can we ascertain an expansion cline?  (Read 1657 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: January 04, 2012, 01:03:03 PM »

Maliclavelli has correctly and steadfastly pointed out that 46835 Mangino is tested as M269+ but has apparent STR commonalities with a group of M343+ (R1b) M269- people. What does that mean? I don't know but lets just look a bit deeper.

The folks below, other than Mangino, are 67 STR ht's from the R1b1* project. the two digit numbers are the GD's from Mangino @67:


f46835 __ Mangino __ Italy    0
fN26020 _ Segarra __ Puerto Rico GD=24
fN83832 _ DeMao ____ Italy GD=27
fN16605 _ Shpritz __ Belarus GD=27
f97835 __ Ofen _____ Hungary GD= 28
f110387 _ Sherman __ Russia GD=28
f67723 __ Humphries   Unknown GD=31

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1Asterisk/default.aspx?section=yresults

The GD's aren't very close, from 24 to 31 @ 67. However there is a clear STR signature, some of which are quite slow markers. The slow matching markers, order of slowest to not quite as slow are:
  
578=8 426=12 388>=13 617=11 YCAIIa=18 459=9,9 448=18 413b=21

That could be coincidental, but there could be something to it.  It is noteworthy that 578 and 426 are the 2nd and 3rd slowest STR markers of FTDNA's first 67. 388 is 11th. That is a very slow set of markers to have a unique STR signature for.

The counter-argument data is that most of the above don't have Mangino's STR values at

425=null 438=12 565=13* 19/394=16*

* However, as Maliclavelli has pointed out, there is a more exclusive subset with Mangino:

f46835 __ Mangino __ Italy    0
fN26020 _ Segarra __ Puerto Rico GD=24
fN83832 _ DeMao ____ Italy GD=27


Of this group of three, only Mangino has 425=null, but all three have 565=13 19/394=16 in addition to 578=8 426=12 388>=13 617=11 YCAIIa=18 459=9,9 448=18 413b=21.  Again, these are slow markers folks!

In all fairness, I applaud Maliclavelli on his research and persistence on this matter. I'm not sure how this all ties into R1b's path into Western Europe, but this is a good discussion starter.

f46835   Mangino   R1b1a2    R-M269    
L1-, L2-, L20-, L21-, L23-, L4-, L48-, L49-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P310-, P311-, P312-, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-

fN26020   Segarra   R1b1    R-P25    
M18-, M335-, P25+, P297-

fN83832   DeMao   R1b1    R-P25    
M18-, M269-, M335-, M73-, P25+, P297-, V88-


The SNP results don't seem to indicate the STR signature forms a valid subclade, although the GD's don't support it.  Maybe Segarra needs to be tested for M269 and Mangino for P297 to get double confirmations.  Both Segarra and DeMao are P297- and I don't think P297 is supposed to be unreliable, is it?  (that's P25 where there are concerns.)

I'm the first to admit I don't have an explanation - either the SNP results are wrong or the STRs are just a coincidence.  This is beyond my pay grade. Has anyone received feedback from Thomas Krahn on this?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 01:00:11 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2012, 01:51:57 PM »

I also can't explain the STR behavior, but my impression is it demonstrates there is a distinct difference in variance and therefore age at the L23- level.  If we had large enough samples of P25* and M269*, I think interclade estimates would be closer to what we get for G2a than for L11+. 

Imo, the P25*  and M269* types arrived during the relatively longer meso-neolithic expansion (12k-6kya) from SW Asia thus providing these larger genetic distances.  The intermediate branches (L23-L11) are the link between SW Asia and Europe that occurred in the later neolithic.  The second and much larger expansion of R1b was an L23+ born in SW Asia or the Caucasus, even though there was already neolithic R1b P25* and M269* in Europe. 

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2012, 03:50:08 PM »

I also can't explain the STR behavior, but my impression is it demonstrates there is a distinct difference in variance and therefore age at the L23- level.  If we had large enough samples of P25* and M269*, I think interclade estimates would be closer to what we get for G2a than for L11+. 

Imo, the P25*  and M269* types arrived during the relatively longer meso-neolithic expansion (12k-6kya) from SW Asia thus providing these larger genetic distances.  The intermediate branches (L23-L11) are the link between SW Asia and Europe that occurred in the later neolithic.  The second and much larger expansion of R1b was an L23+ born in SW Asia or the Caucasus, even though there was already neolithic R1b P25* and M269* in Europe. 



The idea that the early Neolithic saw a minor spread of P25* and M269* into Europe is certainly not implausible to me.  It all depends where these folk were but if they were in the coastal Anatolia or Levant area c. 8000-6000BC then it would be strange if some of them didnt get caught up in the Neolithic moves from there. What is interesting to me is that this element seems modest (perhaps why it hasnt yet been detected in the ancient DNA samples), almost suggesting that the main concentration was somehow slightly off the main path of Neolithic spread west at that crucial period. 
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2012, 04:36:11 PM »

I have written to Mangino:

Dear Mikalson, are you a descendant of Mangino (ySearch EEX6N)? And Mikalson is a surname changed? Is your ancestor from Monticiano (Tuscany)? Then probably the surname was Mancini or Mangini. We have discussed a lot about your haplotype, also recently on www.worldfamilies.com. Are you interested to test again your SNP M269? If you want I can contribute to this test and others.
Kind Regards, Gioiello Tognoni

I had to say that I thought Mangino, from his surname, from South Italy. If he comes from Tuscany, it would be, how we say in Italian, "il cacio sui maccheroni".


« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 04:36:51 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2012, 07:57:40 PM »

The idea that the early Neolithic saw a minor spread of P25* and M269* into Europe is certainly not implausible to me.  It all depends where these folk were but if they were in the coastal Anatolia or Levant area c. 8000-6000BC then it would be strange if some of them didnt get caught up in the Neolithic moves from there. What is interesting to me is that this element seems modest (perhaps why it hasnt yet been detected in the ancient DNA samples), almost suggesting that the main concentration was somehow slightly off the main path of Neolithic spread west at that crucial period. 

The Myres' study supplement shows M343*(likely P25*) and M269* in the Levant and Anatolia at low frequencies.  The farthest to the northwest they get with modest frequency is Germany and Switzerland.  To the northeast, there is small amounts of M269* among the Bashkir.  The center of gravity is in SE Europe which hints at the Neolithic, not unlike G2a4 and others.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2012, 04:51:28 PM »

I've changed the Haplotype_Data_R-M269asterisk file to now include R1b1 people (L389+ M269- and V88+.)

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/files/Haplotype_Data_R-M343xU106xP312.zip

R-M343xP312xU106 confirmed haplotypes including all subclades. The two large subclades of Western Europe, P312 and U106 are excluded, but L11* is included as is R-L23xL11, R-M269xL23 and R-M343xM269 (so V88 is included too.) 111 marker haplotypes are in the ExtHts tab/worksheet.

This allows for easy cross checking of 67 and 111 STR GD's regardless of haplogroup. I don't recommend this but at least you can assess this easily.

I don't have SNPs or haplogroups marked for M269- people, but I have the different clusters labeled out in the "Variety" column so you can sort or filter by this.  All M269- people have "Variety" labels that start with "x".
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« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2012, 02:21:49 PM »

I wonder whether this new P310* person would be useful to compare with f46835 Mangino:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-01/1326471654

I confess I don't understand the terminology that switches around, depending on what lab or project named the SNP (and is, at a given moment, being cited).  Anyway, it looked like an interesting result for Mike's (or Ken's) haplogroup nodes -- whether this particular one, or some other that needs to be factored into the TMRCA calculations.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2012, 03:03:50 PM »

R1b1a2 P312- U106- L49+ L23+
134236 Leonard Willing, m1607, Plymstock, Devon, England England R1b1a2a1
11 23 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 15 9-9 11 11 25 15 18 30 14-15-16-17 11 12 19-23 15 15 17 17 37-37 12 12                                                                                                                                 154127 Richard Willing, 1694, Holbeton, Devon, England England R1b1a2
11 23 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 15 9-9 11 11 25 15 18 30 14-15-16-17 11 12 19-23 15 15 18 17 36-37 13 12                                                                                                                                 146527 Michael Willing, 1602, Modbury, Devon, England England R1b1a2
11 23 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30 15 9-9 11 11 25 15 18 30 14-15-17-17 11 12 19-23 15 15 18 17 36-38 12 12                                                                                                                                 175619 John Chollocombe m.1566 Braunton, Devon United Kingdom R1b1a2a
12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 11 13 12 28 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-16-18 11 11 19-23 15 16 17 17 35-36 11 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 18 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 14 10 11 12 13                                                                                         

R1b1a2 P312- U106- P310+ 136502 Thomas Vawden, 1550-1610 Roborough, Devon, UK England R1b1a2a1a1
13 24 14 11 12-15 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-17 11 10 19-23 16 15 17 17 37-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 22-23 15 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 12 11 12 12

The first three are simply R-L23 with the same surname and the same origin who mutated DYS393 from 12 to 11.
The last is an R-P310+, we call usually R-L11+.
Nothing to do with R-M269* and less with R1b1*.
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Maliclavelli


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razyn
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« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2012, 05:01:17 PM »

The last is an R-P310+, we call usually R-L11+.
Well, some do, and some don't (call it that).  I resist going to the ISOGG tree to look for all the alternate names for these things, and "P310" doesn't come up very often.

Quote
Nothing to do with R-M269* and less with R1b1*.
But perhaps something to do with an expansion cline (OK, maybe not this precise one); and something to do with dating most of R1b in western Europe -- but nothing obviously having to do with Italy.

If this is the wrong thread for mentioning it, I stand corrected.  To me, it all looks like the same discussion, just entered at different steps according to the interests of the individual discussant.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2012, 06:14:24 PM »

The last is an R-P310+, we call usually R-L11+.
Well, some do, and some don't (call it that).  I resist going to the ISOGG tree to look for all the alternate names for these things, and "P310" doesn't come up very often.
I use the term L11+ to refer to this branch of the R1b phylogenetic tree, but it is easy to get confused with the multiple synonymous SNPs. At least one major study calls it by another label for the same SNP (S127), at least I think it is the exact same SNP. Here is what ISOGG lists for this branch:
R1b1a2a1a1   L11/S127, L52, L151, P310/S129, P311/S128
http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

At the same time, FTDNA, typically seems to test for P310 and P311 rather than L11. Go to the ht35 Y DNA SNP report and scroll down to very near the bottom. You'll see they use the short label R-P310.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ysnp
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 06:14:46 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2012, 09:59:40 AM »

But perhaps something to do with an expansion cline (OK, maybe not this precise one); and something to do with dating most of R1b in western Europe -- but nothing obviously having to do with Italy.
Perhaps I am not able to measure my English, but mine didn’t want to be a reproach. About the link with Italy I wouldn’t be so sure: R-L51+ is overwhelmingly Italian, see the map of Argiedude and my previous researches written in thousands of letters and the last researches of Richard Rocca about the 1000 Genomes project: about 4% of R-L51+ in Tuscany, which is about the same of the Alto Adige region.
It is true that the British Isles have more R-L11+ than Italy, but the same Mikewww said a few days ago that probably R-L11+ expanded from Italy. Then…
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Maliclavelli


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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2012, 06:30:27 PM »

.. It is true that the British Isles have more R-L11+ than Italy, but the same Mikewww said a few days ago that probably R-L11+ expanded from Italy.
I think I said I agreed that L11 could have expanded from Italy, not that I know it did. I don't know how L11 first came into Western Europe. I was trying to make the point, however, that it looks P312 and U152 came down into Italy from the other side of Alps.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 06:32:37 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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