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Author Topic: Is U152 (S28) of Italic origin?  (Read 4611 times)
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2012, 09:53:07 AM »

Gioiello, rest assured I was not responsible for your latest banishment as I think you add good value to these discussions.

Unfortunately I think you need to stop the ultra-nationalistic nonsense. Questioning people's loyalty to Italy because they propose an invasion model for U152 instead of an autochthonous origin? Calling people cowards because they don't reply to a post about variance? The absurdity of your comments and insults is just off the charts.

What do you propose we do with all of the authors of the Italian history books I have that state that Indo-European was brought to Italy as the result of an invasion from the north? Should we have their Italian citizenship revoked? Maybe we can have them deported to the Danube or somewhere extremely Celtic like Ireland?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2012, 12:56:59 PM »

Dear Richard, why my statements would be “ultra-nationalistic nonsense”? Only because I have elaborated a theory which presupposes an Italian Refugium during the Younger Dryas and an expansion from there in many directions? I have carried some “proofs”:
1)   mtDNA R0a’b, HV4, HV1a’b’c etc, beyond the accepted U5b3, etc.
2)   the whole path of R1b1
3)   certainly the G2a4  of Oetzi (at least it is in Italy from 5300 years) and other haplogroups
4)   the theory that IE languages come from here and are linked to Rhaetian-Etruscan-Camun
5)   that there has been a Western Indo-European linked to the 3 principal subclades of R1b1a2: U106/German, L21/Celts, U152/Italics
6)   for the fact that I criticized your theory of the link of U152 with the Urnfield culture and the Italian Terramare posting a quoting which demonstrates, I think , that the Urnfield culture descends from the pile dwellers, present in North Italy (the most ancient) from 7000 YBP
7)   etc etc
If I am wrong, which care? Your theory will be demonstrated and accepted by everyone. And why my theories are nationalism and the others not?

“Questioning people's loyalty to Italy because they propose an invasion model for U152 instead
of an autochthonous origin? Calling people cowards because they don't reply to a post about variance? The absurdity of your comments and insults is just off the charts”.

You know I intervened only because it seemed to me that Diana was using a language that could be taken for nationalistic, and I tried to lighten the situation, evidently getting the opposed effect. Anyway if you believe that this is what they reproach me you are well ingenuous. My positions are deeper and deeper.

“What do you propose we do with all of the authors of the Italian history books I have that state that Indo-European was brought to Italy as the result of an invasion from the north? Should we have their Italian citizenship revoked? Maybe we can have them deported to the Danube or somewhere extremely Celtic like Ireland?”

This is the true nonsense.
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« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2012, 04:33:19 PM »

.... I have elaborated a theory which presupposes an Italian Refugium during the Younger Dryas and an expansion from there in many directions? I have carried some “proofs”:
You may some valid points of logic or evidence, but I don't think we should call anything you or I or anyone else on this blog as a "proof."
Quote from: Maliclavelli
1)   mtDNA R0a’b, HV4, HV1a’b’c etc, beyond the accepted U5b3, etc.
mt DNA geographic dispersions, and therefore apparently migrations, do not align with Y DNA dispersions. Is there a specific mt DNA haplogroup that you think aligns with an R1b haplogroup that shows Italy as a launch point for Europe?
Quote from: Maliclavelli
2)   the whole path of R1b1
What is the whole path of R1b1? This point is argued about  vigorously. There is no agreement that all R1b1 comes through Italy. I checked the R1b1(xP297) project and it shows people from Russia, Poland, Ukraine, Germany, Lithuania, Romania, Yemen, Spain, and Italy. Italy doesn't stand out for any particular reason in the project.
Quote from: Maliclavelli
3)   certainly the G2a4  of Oetzi (at least it is in Italy from 5300 years) and other haplogroups
No R1b aDNA has been found in Europe before 3k years ago. What does this have to do with a G2a4 guy being in the Alps 5.3k years ago?
Quote from: Maliclavelli
4)   the theory that IE languages come from here and are linked to Rhaetian-Etruscan-Camun
Could be. Does this mean you think IE came with the Etruscans from Anatolia?
Quote from: Maliclavelli
5)   that there has been a Western Indo-European linked to the 3 principal subclades of R1b1a2: U106/German, L21/Celts, U152/Italics
The linkage of U152 solely to the Italics is tenuous. U152 is spread up and down the Rhine and goes far east even to Central Asia. We have no reason to think there weren't as many U152 folks that were Celtic speakers as there were that spoke Italic.
Quote from: Maliclavelli
6)   for the fact that I criticized your theory of the link of U152 with the Urnfield culture and the Italian Terramare posting a quoting which demonstrates, I think , that the Urnfield culture descends from the pile dwellers, present in North Italy (the most ancient) from 7000 YBP ...
Could be, but this is just one of many possibilities. I thank you for highlighting this.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 04:41:33 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2012, 05:30:32 AM »

0)   I wrote proofs in inverted commas, to mean that they are hypotheses, but done after the knowledge of many data and facts and which may become proofs after an opportune experiment. Science works so.
1)   The fact that I think having demonstrated during these years that Italy is at the origin of these mitochondrial haplogroups, after that for years many thought that it isn’t (only for U5b3 also Jean Manco agrees), is very important for my theory. And note that these are specific and rare haplogroups. You should know that a path of a haplogroup is easier demonstrable by the rare than by the most diffused ones. Of course I haven’t in my hands the levers of power, but I have always supported also the origin in Italy of K (which is mine and my wife’s haplogroup) and this was also the position of Brian Sykes. And what will you say if I’ll demonstrate that the weirdest H* known so far (Ian Logan spoke of on Rootsweb) comes from High Adriatic?
2)   I haven’t in my hands the lever of power but neither you and you shouldn’t believe to what others want you know. I have said this also like Claire on Dna-forums (thread on hg.R, the pinned one), when Vizachero recognized me and asked first my banishment. After evoked it also Rich Rocca, but he says he isn’t responsible, and I believe him, but he is probably too young and too ingenuous. Go and read that thread: European subclades down R1b1* descend probably by the R1b1* present in Western Europe with YCAII=18-23 and not from the Eastern ones with 21-23 or 23-23, and Italy gets the widest variance having both 18-23 and 18-22, but these values you won’t find on the spreadsheets you spoke of. You should put Mangino from R1b1a2 to R1b1 and the same DeMao has been put there only after I spoke of it (you can see in this site a thread of mine about it). I have also taken in consideration that DeMao, probably from DeMaio, couldn’t be of Italian extraction but Spanish or even Jewish, but I have found another Italian with this haplotype: see Toniolo I put on ySearch from SMGF), then I think that DeMao belongs to this Italian cluster.
3)   Certainly that no R1b has been found so far in Western Europe (but for what I know neither elsewhere) is a proof against my theory and if it won’t ever be found my theory will be demonstrated false. That G2a4 was in Italy 5300 years ago is a fact, and they are facts also the G2a in South France and Spain (where happened the colonization by sea of the agriculturalists from Italy) of 7000 years ago and note that the fanatics of the variance esteemed those haplotypes not more than 3000 years old. Also this is a fact.
4)   I don’t believe to the Renfrew theory. Indo-European languages arrived to Anatolia not before 2000 BC (Hittite), coming of course from the Balkans, like Armenian and Greek. The satem languages did a different route, I think from Central-East Europe. There is the possibility that the first languages to migrate to Anatolia or to Aegean Sea were not the Indo-European ones but those linked to Etruscan-Rhaetian-Camun. Certainly the link between Etruscan and Lemnian is recent (whichever was the path: I think from Italy to Lemnos, others think the other way around). And we shouldn’t believe any more that migrations happened in only one way, like just my mt haplogroups have demonstrated.
5)   Of course haplogroups have mixed frequently, but if I should choose a Celt haplotype I’d choose L21 and not U152. The paucity of L21 in Italy demonstrates that there wasn’t a huge back migration from the extreme Celt lands, even though you know for me it is always open the question of the first origin of L21 (and also of U106) and I haven’t yet excluded that they too were born in Italy or nearby.
6)   Some years ago I wrote (perhaps then I was on Rootsweb: my banishment happened at the end of 2007) that we should have searched for the Italian Refugium in the now submerged Adriatic. I wouldn’t exclude that the pile dwellings were born there, during the period that sea was invading the land. Pile dwellings aren’t only in the Alpine region, but overall in Italy, also in Abruzzo, which is at the level of the emerged Adriatic. Pile dwellers continued to build pile dwellings also on hills or mountains till the Terramare, probably thousands of years after their beginning. And don’t forget that the most important pile dwellings town is Venice, in High Adriatic.
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« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2012, 11:42:36 AM »

Quote from: Maliclavelli
3)   certainly the G2a4  of Oetzi (at least it is in Italy from 5300 years) and other haplogroups

No R1b aDNA has been found in Europe before 3k years ago. What does this have to do with a G2a4 guy being in the Alps 5.3k years ago?

3)   Certainly that no R1b has been found so far in Western Europe (but for what I know neither elsewhere) is a proof against my theory and if it won’t ever be found my theory will be demonstrated false. That G2a4 was in Italy 5300 years ago is a fact, and they are facts also the G2a in South France and Spain (where happened the colonization by sea of the agriculturalists from Italy) of 7000 years ago and note that the fanatics of the variance esteemed those haplotypes not more than 3000 years old. Also this is a fact.

I think you are misrepresenting what the "fanatics of the variance" are saying, or at least you should be more specific to who you are referring to.

I just double checked what Marko Heinila post for these haplogroups according to his TMRCA estimates. Keep in mind these are just the mid points of the most likely ranges.

G2a4(L91) Intraclade TMRCA 7.7k ybp
G2a4(L91) & G2a2(M286) Interclade TMRCA 8.3k ybp

G2a(P15) Intraclade TMRCA 11.0k ybp
G2a(P15) & G2c(M377) Interclade TMRCA 15.0k ybp

G2(P287) Intraclade TMRCA 17.0k ybp
G2(P287) & G1(M285) Interclade TRMCA 27.0k ybp


Again, those estimates are just the midpoints of most likely ranges, but I don't see why Oetzi invalidates Heinila's estimates.

Heinila has the following for these R1b subclades:

R-P312 Intraclade TMRCA 4.3k ybp
R-U106 Intraclade TMRCA 4.5k ybp
R-U106 & R-P312 Interclade TMRCA 4.5k ybp

R-U152 Intraclade TMRCA 4.2k ybp
R-U152 & R-L21 Interclade TMRcA 4.2k ybp


These R1b subclade TMRCA estimates from Heinila fit almost perfectly with what you get from Ken Nordtvedt's Generations7 TMRCA methods.

These G subclades appear to easily to be quite a bit older than the R1b-L11 subclades. I don't see why you cite Oetzi as a "proof" something related to younger R1b subclades.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 12:08:12 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2012, 12:13:56 PM »

Quote from: Maliclavelli
1)   mtDNA R0a’b, HV4, HV1a’b’c etc, beyond the accepted U5b3, etc.

mt DNA geographic dispersions, and therefore apparently migrations, do not align with Y DNA dispersions. Is there a specific mt DNA haplogroup that you think aligns with an R1b haplogroup that shows Italy as a launch point for Europe?

1)   The fact that I think having demonstrated during these years that Italy is at the origin of these mitochondrial haplogroups, after that for years many thought that it isn’t (only for U5b3 also Jean Manco agrees), is very important for my theory. And note that these are specific and rare haplogroups. You should know that a path of a haplogroup is easier demonstrable by the rare than by the most diffused ones. Of course I haven’t in my hands the levers of power, but I have always supported also the origin in Italy of K (which is mine and my wife’s haplogroup) and this was also the position of Brian Sykes. And what will you say if I’ll demonstrate that the weirdest H* known so far (Ian Logan spoke of on Rootsweb) comes from High Adriatic?

Who has accepted that you have demonstrated that Italy is the origin of these mt DNA haplogroups?
The answer to that doesn't matter anyway. I don't see the relevance to Y DNA R1b subclades anyway. You have been unable to show the correlation. As I said earlier, mt DNA distributions don't align well with Y DNA distributions. Just look at the old World Haplogroup maps for Y and mt DNA.
http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 12:24:38 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2012, 01:03:40 PM »

Quote from: Maliclavelli
2)   the whole path of R1b1

What is the whole path of R1b1? This point is argued about  vigorously. There is no agreement that all R1b1 comes through Italy. I checked the R1b1(xP297) project and it shows people from Russia, Poland, Ukraine, Germany, Lithuania, Romania, Yemen, Spain, and Italy. Italy doesn't stand out for any particular reason in the project.

2)   I haven’t in my hands the lever of power but neither you and you shouldn’t believe to what others want you know. I have said this also like Claire on Dna-forums (thread on hg.R, the pinned one), when Vizachero recognized me and asked first my banishment. After evoked it also Rich Rocca, but he says he isn’t responsible, and I believe him, but he is probably too young and too ingenuous. Go and read that thread: European subclades down R1b1* descend probably by the R1b1* present in Western Europe with YCAII=18-23 and not from the Eastern ones with 21-23 or 23-23, and Italy gets the widest variance having both 18-23 and 18-22, but these values you won’t find on the spreadsheets you spoke of. You should put Mangino from R1b1a2 to R1b1 and the same DeMao has been put there only after I spoke of it (you can see in this site a thread of mine about it). I have also taken in consideration that DeMao, probably from DeMaio, couldn’t be of Italian extraction but Spanish or even Jewish, but I have found another Italian with this haplotype: see Toniolo I put on ySearch from SMGF), then I think that DeMao belongs to this Italian cluster.

I don't know anything about the "lever of power." I'm just a hobbyist.

I couldn't find the posting you were talking about. I agree it is possible that R-L11, the predominant R1b subclade of Western Europe, originated in Europe somewhere, but I don't think your use of YCAII as a marker for subclade that long ago is conclusive.  I am YCAII=18,23 and I as far as I can tell my Y DNA has nothing to do with anything southeast of a line from La Rochelle, France to Helsinki, Finland. It also seems apparent, because of what the Y DNA tree tells us, that my ancestors were YCAII=19,23 as little as 1200 years ago, before the mutation to YCAII=18,23.  

It is not logical for you to say that STR variance is not worth anything and then use just one multi-copy STR marker four or five or more thousand years ago is of value. This ks akin to cherry-picking. Rather than using statistical analysis and testing different methods, you pick out one or two pieces of data and base a theory on it.

What about all of the R1b1(xP297) project people from Russia, Poland, Ukraine, Germany, Lithuania, Romania, Yemen, and Spain? I don't see the logic how all roads to Western Europe go through Italy for R1b.  It's possible, but you are not demonstrating it.
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« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2012, 01:21:11 PM »

... You should put Mangino from R1b1a2 to R1b1 and the same DeMao has been put there only after I spoke of it ....
I don't remember the thread but I gladly ask for help on getting the data correct and have followed up on your recommendations, which is why I think I updated DeMao.

As far 46835 Mangino, in the R-M269xU106xP312 (old name ht35) project:
- He is listed by project admins under the category as R1b1a2: L23- L51- L11-
- FTDNA has his long haplogroup label as R1b1a2.
- FTDNA gives his SNP results and shows him as M269+
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ysnp

What I am to think? You say he should be moved from R1b1a2 to R1b1 which can only mean you think he is M269-.  The testing company says he is tested M269+.  If you are basing your theory on testing company errors then you have tough row to hoe.
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« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2012, 01:24:30 PM »

Who has accepted that you have demonstrated that Italy is the origin of these mt DNA haplogroups?
It is very strange that you didn’t find the thread of Hg. R, the pinned one, on Dna-forums, that began by Vincent Vizachero, and I am obliged to send you to another thread of Dna-forums, that began by William Hurst, where I posted why 23andme and FTDNA accepted that R0a was Paleolithic European and then corrected their opinion, an absurd thing, even more now that Achilli has found in Campania (South Italy) an R0b of the node R0a’b, documented also by the last Phylotree. Unfortunately I am not at home now and I haven’t my data, and as you know I haven’t access to Dna-forums.
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« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2012, 01:32:50 PM »

About Mangino I said to Vizachero what I have now said to you and he agreed with me, but Manginoi is always in the wrong place. Ask you why. I said also that if he is actually an R1b1a2 it would have been  even more interesting for my theory, because it would be the weirdest R1b1a2 known so far. I asked also to test him  and I would have paid for the test, because if he isn't an R1b1 (what I don't believe) he could be an intermediate haplogroup between R1b1 and R1b1b not found so far. Have you had an answer? I not. Vizachero and others get the levers of the power, I not.
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« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2012, 01:33:25 PM »

5)   that there has been a Western Indo-European linked to the 3 principal subclades of R1b1a2: U106/German, L21/Celts, U152/Italics

The linkage of U152 solely to the Italics is tenuous. U152 is spread up and down the Rhine and goes far east even to Central Asia. We have no reason to think there weren't as many U152 folks that were Celtic speakers as there were that spoke Italic.

5)   Of course haplogroups have mixed frequently, but if I should choose a Celt haplotype I’d choose L21 and not U152. The paucity of L21 in Italy demonstrates that there wasn’t a huge back migration from the extreme Celt lands, even though you know for me it is always open the question of the first origin of L21 (and also of U106) and I haven’t yet excluded that they too were born in Italy or nearby.
There is no logic in saying only one haplogroup, L21, is Celtic while the others can't be. There is no exclusivity to cultures. They can contain multiple haplogroups.

I guess you are saying "if I should choose."   Do you mean "if I had to choose?" Sure, L21 has a heavy Celtic bent, much of P312 does and U152 is just another P312 brother. I'm not saying the early Italics were not U152. I don't know, but given U152's distribution and diversity, a lot of U152, maybe the majority, might have been Celtic speaking.
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« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2012, 01:40:38 PM »

About Mangino I said to Vizachero what I have now said to you and he agreed with me, but Manginoi is always in the wrong place. Ask you why. I said also that if he is actually an R1b1a2 it would have been  even more interesting for my theory, because it would be the weirdest R1b1a2 known so far. I asked also to test him  and I would have paid for the test, because if he isn't an R1b1 (what I don't believe) he could be an intermediate haplogroup between R1b1 and R1b1b not found so far. Have you had an answer? I not. Vizachero and others get the levers of the power, I not.
I did a search for "Mangino" under
"DNA Forums    > DNA Discussion    > y-DNA Haplogroups    > R Haplogroup (Y-DNA)"

I ddn't find anything.

Here are the three "Pinned" topics on that forum.
"Structure of haplogroup R1b"
"R Family Links"
"DNA-Forums R-M269 Tree October 2008"

Which topic and on what date did Vineviz say that Mangino should be M269- ?

For the sake of data correctness, I want to chase this down, but as far as your theories it makes little difference.  One or two strange haplotypes can't tell us much.  I have found a very strange P312 haplotype in England with an allele 6-7 from anybody. I don't think that means P312 originated where this guy is from. Aberrations do happen.  To not recognize this is a logical fallacy.  We might overgeneralize based on the exception rather than the rule.

The idea of statistical analysis is to look at lots of data and figure out what the big picture tells us.
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« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2012, 01:46:41 PM »

I think it is Structure of R1b. About what said Vizachero I have the private letters and I'll send them to you, but for now:

Read what Nordtvedt wrote on Rootsweb and I quoted hier n 20 and you will understand many things.
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« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2012, 01:47:24 PM »

About Mangino I said to Vizachero what I have now said to you and he agreed with me, but Manginoi is always in the wrong place. Ask you why. I said also that if he is actually an R1b1a2 it would have been  even more interesting for my theory, because it would be the weirdest R1b1a2 known so far. I asked also to test him  and I would have paid for the test, because if he isn't an R1b1 (what I don't believe) he could be an intermediate haplogroup between R1b1 and R1b1b not found so far. Have you had an answer? I not. Vizachero and others get the levers of the power, I not.
You should contact FTDNA directly to inform them their M269 SNP test is wrong.
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« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2012, 01:52:58 PM »

I think it is Structure of R1b. About what said Vizachero I have the private letters and I'll send them to you, but for now:

Read what Nordtvedt wrote on Rootsweb and I quoted hier n 20 and you will understand many things.
I don't really need to read your personal emails with Vineviz so please don't bother. One haplotype does not a difference make, anyway.

If you want to copy posts or data from elsewhere, fine, but please don't just use a reference to another post as a substitute for a logical argument.  Please argue directly your logic yourself right here. I know there is a bit of language barrier, but I really am trying to understand.  To be honest, your theory doesn't make any sense to me. It's possible, it is just another idea floating around.

I read Nordtvedt's posts and use his Generations7 methodology. He think P312 and U106 and L11 are all about the same age, about 4-5k ybp, and they must have come from roughly the same geography.

I've never seen where he indicated this geography was Italy.
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« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2012, 02:05:27 PM »

Probably there aren't private letters. You can see here:

World Families Forums - R-P312 update variance numbers by country
The recent discovery by Vizachero of an R1b1b2* (Mangino) with the highest variance in this haplogroup and linked closely to the R1b1/V88-/L389+, .

www.familytreecircles.com World Families Forums - R-M269xL23, L23xL11 and L11* / ht35 ...
Another possibility, even more interesting, would be that Mangino is really M269+, ... also here and for "we" I mean me, Argiedude, the same Vizachero and others.

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« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2012, 02:08:14 PM »

4)   the theory that IE languages come from here and are linked to Rhaetian-Etruscan-Camun

Could be. Does this mean you think IE came with the Etruscans from Anatolia?

4)   I don’t believe to the Renfrew theory. Indo-European languages arrived to Anatolia not before 2000 BC (Hittite), coming of course from the Balkans, like Armenian and Greek. The satem languages did a different route, I think from Central-East Europe. There is the possibility that the first languages to migrate to Anatolia or to Aegean Sea were not the Indo-European ones but those linked to Etruscan-Rhaetian-Camun. Certainly the link between Etruscan and Lemnian is recent (whichever was the path: I think from Italy to Lemnos, others think the other way around). And we shouldn’t believe any more that migrations happened in only one way, like just my mt haplogroups have demonstrated.
How does this show that the path for Western European R1b subclade lineages came through Italy?

Are you saying that the Proto-Indo-European language developed in Italy? There are multiple books and papers on this subject. What linguists espouse a theory that PIE originated in Italy? What I've read is that the primary origin theories for PIE are the Kurgan, Anatolian or Armenian hypotheses. Where's Italy in this?  These hypotheses seem to have PIE moving through Europe overland initially and not through the Italian Peninsula. Certainly IE languages did not have to pass through the Italian Peninsula to get to Northern Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language
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« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2012, 02:41:10 PM »

Probably there aren't private letters. You can see here:

World Families Forums - R-P312 update variance numbers by country
The recent discovery by Vizachero of an R1b1b2* (Mangino) with the highest variance in this haplogroup and linked closely to the R1b1/V88-/L389+, .

www.familytreecircles.com World Families Forums - R-M269xL23, L23xL11 and L11* / ht35 ...
Another possibility, even more interesting, would be that Mangino is really M269+, ... also here and for "we" I mean me, Argiedude, the same Vizachero and others.


Okay, let's look at Mangino.  I think I see what you are trying to say here.  I'll run some comparisons.

It would be interesting to identify a couple of M269+ people that fit in haplotype wise with some M269- people.  That's a long time ago.

Here is what FTDNA lists for Mangino's SNP testing:
Quote
46835    Mangino    R1b1a2    R-M269    L1-, L2-, L20-, L21-, L23-, L4-, L48-, L49-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P310-, P311-, P312-, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-

« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 02:43:03 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2012, 02:51:35 PM »

...World Families Forums - R-P312 update variance numbers by country
The recent discovery by Vizachero of an R1b1b2* (Mangino) with the highest variance in this haplogroup and linked closely to the R1b1/V88-/L389+, .

www.familytreecircles.com World Families Forums - R-M269xL23, L23xL11 and L11* / ht35 ...
Another possibility, even more interesting, would be that Mangino is really M269+, ... also here and for "we" I mean me, Argiedude, the same Vizachero and others.
Okay, let's look at Mangino.  I think I see what you are trying to say here.  I'll run some comparisons.

It would be interesting to identify a couple of M269+ people that fit in haplotype wise with some M269- people.  That's a long time ago.

Here is what FTDNA lists for Mangino's SNP testing:
Quote
46835    Mangino    R1b1a2    R-M269    L1-, L2-, L20-, L21-, L23-, L4-, L48-, L49-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P310-, P311-, P312-, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-

Here the people in the R-M269xU106xP312 file with 67 markers that are closest to Mangino.  Wow, you are right about his Genetic Distances (GD).  The closest guy I could find is an L11* guy with GD=29 @ 67.

The closest M269* guy I could find is from Greece with a GD=34 @ 67. Really, only M269* people are valid comparisons.


f46835   Mangino   R-M269*   Italy   0   m 39313
f21833   Wright   R-L11*   zzzUnkOrigin   29   p310 *
f107114   Bennett   R-L23*   England, London   30   m23 *
f26521   Blair   R-L23*   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Londonderry, Aghadowey   30   m23 *
f182296   Burckhalter   R-L23*   Switzerland   30   m23-1415 *
fN37658   Romitti   R-L23*   Italy, Lombardy, Mantova, Suzzara (L150-?)   31   m23 *
fN79866   Kowalina   R-L23*   Poland   31   m23-1922
f206123   Diggs   R-L11*   England   31   p310 *
fN9690   Banuk   R-L23*   Lithuania, Musnik   32   m23 *
f118282   Skoda   R-L23*   Croatia, Split   32   m23 *
f47937   Iozelsohn   R-L23   Lithuania, Joniskis (Jewish project)   32   m23-1415-A-1-A
f110095   Ohlhaeuser   R-L11*   Germany, Baden-Württemberg   32   p310 *
f199843   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   zzzUnkOrigin   33   m23 *
f177152   Burkholder   R-L23/L277   Switzerland   33   m23-1415-A *
f164219   Sinanian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)   33   m23-n425
f74470   Cotner   R-L11*   zzzUnkOrigin   33   p310 *
fN32225   Kahrimanis   R-M269*   Greece, Sparta   34   m *


Unfortunately there are a number of M269* who have not upgraded to 67 markers. I started looking for commonalities between them and Mangino and found these potential STR signatures:

393=13
f66862   Davids   R-M269*   zzCountry
f66522   Sutherland R-M269* zzCountry

393=13 459=9,9 449=30
f66522   Sutherland R-M269* zzCountry

19>=15 458<=16
f138810   Lanza   R-M269*   Italy   EE East Mediterranean   Italy

19>=15 388=13 439=13 456=15
f174259   Tour-Sarkissian   R-M269*   Turkey (Armenian project)

19=16 YCAIIa<=18
fN82972   Canton   R-M269*   Italy

459=9,9 458<=16
f113045   El-Makki   R-M269*   Algeria
f95752   Fiozzo   R-M269*   Italy
fN70609   zzzUnkName   R-M269*   Turkey

459=9,9 458<=16 385=11,13
f113045   El-Makki   R-M269*   Algeria

YCAII=18,23 456<=15 481=23
f207685   Kortoshian   R-M269*   Turkey
f134423   Srabian   R-M269*   Armenia
f131645   Terzian   R-M269*   Turkey


Unfortunately, none of the GD's are close at all so it is very hard to conclude there are any real deep ancestral varieties. The one I like the best from the above is between Mangino and  f174259 Tour-Sarkissian from the Armenian project. 19 is a slow marker and 388 is a very slow marker.

I'll have to load people from the R1b1x297 project to do that comparison so that'll take a while.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 03:27:32 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2012, 06:18:39 AM »

174259 Tour-Sarkissian Turkey R1b1a2
12 24 15 10 11-14 11 13 13 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 27 15-15-17-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 17 17 35-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 17 8 13 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

46835 Mangino Italy R1b1a2
13 24 16 11 11-13 12 13 12 13 13 29 15 9-9  11 11  25 15 18 30 13-14-14-16 11 11 18-23 15 17 19 16 33-38 12 12 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10   0 20-21 16 10 12 12 13 8 12 23 20 15 11 11 13 11 11 12 13

_R1b1* (L389+) Cluster A2 67723 Humphries Samuel Humphries (b. about 1760, location unknown) Unknown Origin R1b1
11 24 15 11 13-14 12 13 12 13 13 30 14 9-9  11 11 26 15 18 30 14-14-14-16 10 11 18-23 14 16 19 16 34-34 15 11 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 9   12 19-21 17 10 12 12 13 8 12 25 21 13 11 11 13 12 11 12 12                                                                                         
161210 Torrescartagena   Unknown Origin R1b1
13 23 16 11 12-14 12 14 11 14 13 30 14 9-9   11 11 26 14 18 27 13-14-14-16 11 11 18-23 15 17 18 16 34-35 1111
                                                                                                                                48742 Quinones Andres Martin[ez] de Quinones, b.1625, Puerto Rico Unknown Origin R1b1
13 23 16 11 12-14 12 14 11 14 13 30 14 9-9   11 11 26 15 18 27 13-14-14-16   

N26020 Segarra Octavio Segarrra, b.c. 1893, Puerto Rico Unknown Origin R1b1
13 23 16 11 12-14 12 14 11 14 13 30 14 9-9   11 11 26 15 18 27 13-14-14-16 11 11 18-23 15 17 18 16 35-35 12 11 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 19-21 16 10 13 12 15 8 12 24 20 14 11 11 13 12 11 12 12 .                                                                                         

56529 Marcial Rufino Marcial, c. 1840, Camuy, Puerto Rico Unknown Origin R1b1
13 23 16 11 12-14 12 14 11 14 13 30 14 9-9   11 11 26 15 18 27 13-14-14-16 11 11 18-23 15 17 19 16 35-35 11 11                                                                                                                                       
N83832 Demao DeMao Italy R1b1
13 24 16 11 12-14 12 13 12 13 13 29 14 9-9   11 11 25 15 18 28 14-14-14-14 11 11 18-22 15 16 17 16 36-36 14   8 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 19-21 15 10 12 12 14 8 12 24 21 14 11 11 13 12 11 12 13


I think it is clear that Mangino is closer to hg. R1b1* more than R1b1a2* and if he will be confirmed R-M269, it does mean that he is the witness of the most ancient M269 after R1b1* and R-P297 and he should be tested for all the SNPs in between.
I don’t want to do excessive polemics about your words. I say only that I am able to read more than a dozen of languages, that I have taught during my life Italian, Latin, History and Geography in the High School and I studied Glottology not on Wikipedia but with scholars like Emilio Peruzzi, Tristano Bolelli, Romano Lazzeroni and other masters of the Italian University.
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« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2012, 10:26:04 AM »

...World Families Forums - R-P312 update variance numbers by country
The recent discovery by Vizachero of an R1b1b2* (Mangino) with the highest variance in this haplogroup and linked closely to the R1b1/V88-/L389+, .

www.familytreecircles.com World Families Forums - R-M269xL23, L23xL11 and L11* / ht35 ...
Another possibility, even more interesting, would be that Mangino is really M269+, ... also here and for "we" I mean me, Argiedude, the same Vizachero and others.

Okay, let's look at Mangino.  I think I see what you are trying to say here.  I'll run some comparisons.

It would be interesting to identify a couple of M269+ people that fit in haplotype wise with some M269- people.  That's a long time ago.

Here is what FTDNA lists for Mangino's SNP testing:
Quote
46835    Mangino    R1b1a2    R-M269    L1-, L2-, L20-, L21-, L23-, L4-, L48-, L49-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P310-, P311-, P312-, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-
....
The closest M269* guy I could find is from Greece with a GD=34 @ 67. Really, only M269* people are valid comparisons.


f46835   Mangino   R-M269*   Italy   0   m 39313
fN32225   Kahrimanis   R-M269*   Greece, Sparta   34   m *


Unfortunately there are a number of M269* who have not upgraded to 67 markers. I started looking for commonalities between them and Mangino and found these potential STR signatures:

393=13
f66862   Davids   R-M269*   zzCountry
f66522   Sutherland R-M269* zzCountry

393=13 459=9,9 449=30
f66522   Sutherland R-M269* zzCountry

19>=15 458<=16
f138810   Lanza   R-M269*   Italy   EE East Mediterranean   Italy

19>=15 388=13 439=13 456=15
f174259   Tour-Sarkissian   R-M269*   Turkey (Armenian project)

19=16 YCAIIa<=18
fN82972   Canton   R-M269*   Italy

459=9,9 458<=16
f113045   El-Makki   R-M269*   Algeria
f95752   Fiozzo   R-M269*   Italy
fN70609   zzzUnkName   R-M269*   Turkey

459=9,9 458<=16 385=11,13
f113045   El-Makki   R-M269*   Algeria

YCAII=18,23 456<=15 481=23
f207685   Kortoshian   R-M269*   Turkey
f134423   Srabian   R-M269*   Armenia
f131645   Terzian   R-M269*   Turkey


Unfortunately, none of the GD's are close at all so it is very hard to conclude there are any real deep ancestral varieties. ...
I did a little maximum GD checking across haplogroups for R1b to see how unusual Mangino's GD is. He is one of a kind since is his nearest GD to an R-M269* person is 34 @ 67. However, there are "one of a kind" people in other haplogroups too. That just means their variety/cluster is not very populous or has not done much DNA testing.

Probably it is more important to check Mangino against the R-M269* modal.  At 67, his GD=31, which is the greatest of the GDs of people tested at 67 in our DNA projects. Below are the maximum GD's at 67 for subclades of R1b.

M269xL23 Avg:16, Min:8, Max:31
L23xL11 Avg:19, Min:10, Max:33
L11xU106xP312 Avg:16, Min:8, Max:24
P312xL21 Avg:15, Min:4, Max:30
U152 Avg:9.4, Min:6, Max:30


As you can see, L23xL11 actually has a larger GD, U152 has a GD=30.

I don't think we should be that alarmed that Mangino's GD is 31 from the R-M269* modal. I expect that some day we'll find larger GD's,  quite a bit larger. M269 is definitely old enough. Apparently many R-M269xL23 branches went extinct, or at least don't live in areas that are well DNA tested.

Unless, Mangino has a close match with a R1b1xM269 person, I have no reason to think that Mangino's SNP test result from FTDNA of M269+ is not accurate.

Does Mangino have a GD of 2 or less at 37 from an M269- person?  6 or 7 or less at 67? If yes, we need to investigate further. If no, practically speaking, Mangino is M269+ and his haplotype is not outside of a GD range for a haplogroup that is probably 8k years old or more, R-M269 (R1b1a2.)

He is unassignable to a cluster, just like many, many R-L21**, R-P312**, R-U106** folks, although I am intrigued by his 19>=15 388=13 439=13 456=15 matching pattern with 174259 Tour-Sarkissian, the Armenian. DYS388 just doesn't mutate very often.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 10:37:06 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2012, 10:33:25 AM »

....
I don’t want to do excessive polemics about your words. I say only that I am able to read more than a dozen of languages, that I have taught during my life Italian, Latin, History and Geography in the High School and I studied Glottology not on Wikipedia but with scholars like Emilio Peruzzi, Tristano Bolelli, Romano Lazzeroni and other masters of the Italian University.
If you don't want to discuss polemics then why do you?

I argue just with data and logic. You espouse "proofs" and points you have "demonstrated" which you haven't. You discuss "levers of power" like they are important or we are more than hobbyists. You list your credentials. I don't care.

Perhaps you should look in the mirror.

We don't need to get personal, so I won't respond to any more of that nature.
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« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2012, 11:20:29 AM »

I have always treated you respectfully, are you to have written: “I guess you are saying "if I should choose." Do you mean "if I had to choose?" …”I know there is a bit of language barrier, but I really am trying to understand”, knowing that I am using a language which isn’t mine, one of the twelve and more I can use.
Anyway if you haven’t understood that Mangino is closer to R1b1* than R1b1a2*, look here and study like I do every day:

174259 Tour-Sarkissian Turkey R1b1a2
12 24 15 10 11-14 11 13 13 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 27 15-15-17-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 17 17 35-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 17 8 13 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

46835 Mangino Italy R1b1a2
13 24 16 11 11-13 12 13 12 13 13 29 15 9-9  11 11  25 15 18 30 13-14-14-16 11 11 18-23 15 17 19 16 33-38 12 12 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10   0 20-21 16 10 12 12 13 8 12 23 20 15 11 11 13 11 11 12 13

_R1b1* (L389+) Cluster A2 67723 Humphries Samuel Humphries (b. about 1760, location unknown) Unknown Origin R1b1
11 24 15 11 13-14 12 13 12 13 13 30 14 9-9 11 11 26 15 18 30 14-14-14-16 10 11 18-23 14 16 19 16 34-34 15 11 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 9   12 19-21 17 10 12 12 13 8 12 25 21 13 11 11 13 12 11 12 12                                                                                        
  
N26020 Segarra Octavio Segarrra, b.c. 1893, Puerto Rico Unknown Origin R1b1
13 23 16 11 12-14 12 14 11 14 13 30 14 9-9  11 11 26 15 18 27 13-14-14-16 11 11 18-23 15 17 18 16 35-35 12 11 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 19-21 16 10 13 12 15 8 12 24 20 14 11 11 13 12 11 12 12                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                     N83832 Demao DeMao Italy R1b1
13 24 16 11 12-14 12 13 12 13 13 29 14 9-9   11 11 25 15 18 28 14-14-14-14 11 11 18-22 15 16 17 16 36-36 14   8 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 19-21 15 10 12 12 14 8 12 24 21 14 11 11 13 12 11 12 13

et coetera Romani loquebantur
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 12:21:39 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2012, 12:08:16 PM »

Does Mangino have a GD of 2 or less at 37 from an M269- person?  6 or 7 or less at 67? If yes, we need to investigate further.
... Anyway if you haven’t understood that Mangino is closer to R1b1* than R1b1a2*, look here and study like I do every day:..
I looked and I agree with you that Mangino's M269+ call and STR signature deserves further investigation. The GD's aren't close at all but there is a clear STR signature. I copied the R1b1xM269 project people into the M269xL11 spreadsheet to compare with Mangino.  I'm going to start a new thread as we are way off topic by now. I apologize to everyone for that.

et coetera Romani loquebantur
Does it matter what the Roman says? or is this a reference to yourself?
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« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2012, 12:20:05 PM »

et coetera Romani loquebantur
Does it matter what the Roman says? or is this a reference to yourself?
[/quote]
At this point Romans would have said "et coetera". You too use in English "etc." for "et coetera" = and so on, and so forth.
I wanted to say that there were other observations to do, for instance that DYS426=12 would be the first not 11 amongst the R1b1a2* ...et coetera.
Hope you have clear now that what I have said weren't "nugae" like Romans said, but, anyway it will be, very important per se and for my theory.

Friendly, Your Gioiello Tognoni
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