Is U152 (S28) of Italic origin?

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Richard Rocca:
Gioiello, rest assured I was not responsible for your latest banishment as I think you add good value to these discussions.

Unfortunately I think you need to stop the ultra-nationalistic nonsense. Questioning people's loyalty to Italy because they propose an invasion model for U152 instead of an autochthonous origin? Calling people cowards because they don't reply to a post about variance? The absurdity of your comments and insults is just off the charts.

What do you propose we do with all of the authors of the Italian history books I have that state that Indo-European was brought to Italy as the result of an invasion from the north? Should we have their Italian citizenship revoked? Maybe we can have them deported to the Danube or somewhere extremely Celtic like Ireland?

Maliclavelli:
Dear Richard, why my statements would be “ultra-nationalistic nonsense”? Only because I have elaborated a theory which presupposes an Italian Refugium during the Younger Dryas and an expansion from there in many directions? I have carried some “proofs”:
1)   mtDNA R0a’b, HV4, HV1a’b’c etc, beyond the accepted U5b3, etc.
2)   the whole path of R1b1
3)   certainly the G2a4  of Oetzi (at least it is in Italy from 5300 years) and other haplogroups
4)   the theory that IE languages come from here and are linked to Rhaetian-Etruscan-Camun
5)   that there has been a Western Indo-European linked to the 3 principal subclades of R1b1a2: U106/German, L21/Celts, U152/Italics
6)   for the fact that I criticized your theory of the link of U152 with the Urnfield culture and the Italian Terramare posting a quoting which demonstrates, I think , that the Urnfield culture descends from the pile dwellers, present in North Italy (the most ancient) from 7000 YBP
7)   etc etc
If I am wrong, which care? Your theory will be demonstrated and accepted by everyone. And why my theories are nationalism and the others not?

“Questioning people's loyalty to Italy because they propose an invasion model for U152 instead
of an autochthonous origin? Calling people cowards because they don't reply to a post about variance? The absurdity of your comments and insults is just off the charts”.

You know I intervened only because it seemed to me that Diana was using a language that could be taken for nationalistic, and I tried to lighten the situation, evidently getting the opposed effect. Anyway if you believe that this is what they reproach me you are well ingenuous. My positions are deeper and deeper.

“What do you propose we do with all of the authors of the Italian history books I have that state that Indo-European was brought to Italy as the result of an invasion from the north? Should we have their Italian citizenship revoked? Maybe we can have them deported to the Danube or somewhere extremely Celtic like Ireland?”

This is the true nonsense.

Mike Walsh:
Quote from: Maliclavelli on January 02, 2012, 12:56:59 PM

.... I have elaborated a theory which presupposes an Italian Refugium during the Younger Dryas and an expansion from there in many directions? I have carried some “proofs”:
You may some valid points of logic or evidence, but I don't think we should call anything you or I or anyone else on this blog as a "proof."
Quote from: Maliclavelli

1)   mtDNA R0a’b, HV4, HV1a’b’c etc, beyond the accepted U5b3, etc.
mt DNA geographic dispersions, and therefore apparently migrations, do not align with Y DNA dispersions. Is there a specific mt DNA haplogroup that you think aligns with an R1b haplogroup that shows Italy as a launch point for Europe?
Quote from: Maliclavelli

2)   the whole path of R1b1
What is the whole path of R1b1? This point is argued about  vigorously. There is no agreement that all R1b1 comes through Italy. I checked the R1b1(xP297) project and it shows people from Russia, Poland, Ukraine, Germany, Lithuania, Romania, Yemen, Spain, and Italy. Italy doesn't stand out for any particular reason in the project.
Quote from: Maliclavelli

3)   certainly the G2a4  of Oetzi (at least it is in Italy from 5300 years) and other haplogroups
No R1b aDNA has been found in Europe before 3k years ago. What does this have to do with a G2a4 guy being in the Alps 5.3k years ago?
Quote from: Maliclavelli

4)   the theory that IE languages come from here and are linked to Rhaetian-Etruscan-Camun
Could be. Does this mean you think IE came with the Etruscans from Anatolia?
Quote from: Maliclavelli

5)   that there has been a Western Indo-European linked to the 3 principal subclades of R1b1a2: U106/German, L21/Celts, U152/Italics
The linkage of U152 solely to the Italics is tenuous. U152 is spread up and down the Rhine and goes far east even to Central Asia. We have no reason to think there weren't as many U152 folks that were Celtic speakers as there were that spoke Italic.
Quote from: Maliclavelli

6)   for the fact that I criticized your theory of the link of U152 with the Urnfield culture and the Italian Terramare posting a quoting which demonstrates, I think , that the Urnfield culture descends from the pile dwellers, present in North Italy (the most ancient) from 7000 YBP ...
Could be, but this is just one of many possibilities. I thank you for highlighting this.

Maliclavelli:
0)   I wrote proofs in inverted commas, to mean that they are hypotheses, but done after the knowledge of many data and facts and which may become proofs after an opportune experiment. Science works so.
1)   The fact that I think having demonstrated during these years that Italy is at the origin of these mitochondrial haplogroups, after that for years many thought that it isn’t (only for U5b3 also Jean Manco agrees), is very important for my theory. And note that these are specific and rare haplogroups. You should know that a path of a haplogroup is easier demonstrable by the rare than by the most diffused ones. Of course I haven’t in my hands the levers of power, but I have always supported also the origin in Italy of K (which is mine and my wife’s haplogroup) and this was also the position of Brian Sykes. And what will you say if I’ll demonstrate that the weirdest H* known so far (Ian Logan spoke of on Rootsweb) comes from High Adriatic?
2)   I haven’t in my hands the lever of power but neither you and you shouldn’t believe to what others want you know. I have said this also like Claire on Dna-forums (thread on hg.R, the pinned one), when Vizachero recognized me and asked first my banishment. After evoked it also Rich Rocca, but he says he isn’t responsible, and I believe him, but he is probably too young and too ingenuous. Go and read that thread: European subclades down R1b1* descend probably by the R1b1* present in Western Europe with YCAII=18-23 and not from the Eastern ones with 21-23 or 23-23, and Italy gets the widest variance having both 18-23 and 18-22, but these values you won’t find on the spreadsheets you spoke of. You should put Mangino from R1b1a2 to R1b1 and the same DeMao has been put there only after I spoke of it (you can see in this site a thread of mine about it). I have also taken in consideration that DeMao, probably from DeMaio, couldn’t be of Italian extraction but Spanish or even Jewish, but I have found another Italian with this haplotype: see Toniolo I put on ySearch from SMGF), then I think that DeMao belongs to this Italian cluster.
3)   Certainly that no R1b has been found so far in Western Europe (but for what I know neither elsewhere) is a proof against my theory and if it won’t ever be found my theory will be demonstrated false. That G2a4 was in Italy 5300 years ago is a fact, and they are facts also the G2a in South France and Spain (where happened the colonization by sea of the agriculturalists from Italy) of 7000 years ago and note that the fanatics of the variance esteemed those haplotypes not more than 3000 years old. Also this is a fact.
4)   I don’t believe to the Renfrew theory. Indo-European languages arrived to Anatolia not before 2000 BC (Hittite), coming of course from the Balkans, like Armenian and Greek. The satem languages did a different route, I think from Central-East Europe. There is the possibility that the first languages to migrate to Anatolia or to Aegean Sea were not the Indo-European ones but those linked to Etruscan-Rhaetian-Camun. Certainly the link between Etruscan and Lemnian is recent (whichever was the path: I think from Italy to Lemnos, others think the other way around). And we shouldn’t believe any more that migrations happened in only one way, like just my mt haplogroups have demonstrated.
5)   Of course haplogroups have mixed frequently, but if I should choose a Celt haplotype I’d choose L21 and not U152. The paucity of L21 in Italy demonstrates that there wasn’t a huge back migration from the extreme Celt lands, even though you know for me it is always open the question of the first origin of L21 (and also of U106) and I haven’t yet excluded that they too were born in Italy or nearby.
6)   Some years ago I wrote (perhaps then I was on Rootsweb: my banishment happened at the end of 2007) that we should have searched for the Italian Refugium in the now submerged Adriatic. I wouldn’t exclude that the pile dwellings were born there, during the period that sea was invading the land. Pile dwellings aren’t only in the Alpine region, but overall in Italy, also in Abruzzo, which is at the level of the emerged Adriatic. Pile dwellers continued to build pile dwellings also on hills or mountains till the Terramare, probably thousands of years after their beginning. And don’t forget that the most important pile dwellings town is Venice, in High Adriatic.

Mike Walsh:
Quote from: Maliclavelli

3)   certainly the G2a4  of Oetzi (at least it is in Italy from 5300 years) and other haplogroups

Quote from: Mikewww on January 02, 2012, 04:33:19 PM

No R1b aDNA has been found in Europe before 3k years ago. What does this have to do with a G2a4 guy being in the Alps 5.3k years ago?

Quote from: Maliclavelli on January 03, 2012, 05:30:32 AM

3)   Certainly that no R1b has been found so far in Western Europe (but for what I know neither elsewhere) is a proof against my theory and if it won’t ever be found my theory will be demonstrated false. That G2a4 was in Italy 5300 years ago is a fact, and they are facts also the G2a in South France and Spain (where happened the colonization by sea of the agriculturalists from Italy) of 7000 years ago and note that the fanatics of the variance esteemed those haplotypes not more than 3000 years old. Also this is a fact.

I think you are misrepresenting what the "fanatics of the variance" are saying, or at least you should be more specific to who you are referring to.

I just double checked what Marko Heinila post for these haplogroups according to his TMRCA estimates. Keep in mind these are just the mid points of the most likely ranges.

G2a4(L91) Intraclade TMRCA 7.7k ybp
G2a4(L91) & G2a2(M286) Interclade TMRCA 8.3k ybp

G2a(P15) Intraclade TMRCA 11.0k ybp
G2a(P15) & G2c(M377) Interclade TMRCA 15.0k ybp

G2(P287) Intraclade TMRCA 17.0k ybp
G2(P287) & G1(M285) Interclade TRMCA 27.0k ybp

Again, those estimates are just the midpoints of most likely ranges, but I don't see why Oetzi invalidates Heinila's estimates.

Heinila has the following for these R1b subclades:

R-P312 Intraclade TMRCA 4.3k ybp
R-U106 Intraclade TMRCA 4.5k ybp
R-U106 & R-P312 Interclade TMRCA 4.5k ybp

R-U152 Intraclade TMRCA 4.2k ybp
R-U152 & R-L21 Interclade TMRcA 4.2k ybp

These R1b subclade TMRCA estimates from Heinila fit almost perfectly with what you get from Ken Nordtvedt's Generations7 TMRCA methods.

These G subclades appear to easily to be quite a bit older than the R1b-L11 subclades. I don't see why you cite Oetzi as a "proof" something related to younger R1b subclades.

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