World Families Forums - R1b similarities in Central Italy (Tuscany and Umbria)

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Author Topic: R1b similarities in Central Italy (Tuscany and Umbria)  (Read 1674 times)
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2012, 10:36:51 AM »

Dear Rocca [I can't call you Rich, because here there is a Rich who is the "first"], this is probably a news, a great news. From a letter of the greatest (probably) living Italian anthropologist I have learnt that geneticists of Florence University (but also French) are testing Neolithic Italian bones from many sites. We’ll know then soon their Y, and, of course, I hope that some R springs up.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Richard Rocca
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« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2012, 12:29:35 PM »

Dear Rocca [I can't call you Rich, because here there is a Rich who is the "first"], this is probably a news, a great news. From a letter of the greatest (probably) living Italian anthropologist I have learnt that geneticists of Florence University (but also French) are testing Neolithic Italian bones from many sites. We’ll know then soon their Y, and, of course, I hope that some R springs up.

That is indeed great news.
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Maternal: H
rms2
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« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2012, 01:28:35 PM »

Dear Rocca [I can't call you Rich, because here there is a Rich who is the "first"], this is probably a news, a great news. From a letter of the greatest (probably) living Italian anthropologist I have learnt that geneticists of Florence University (but also French) are testing Neolithic Italian bones from many sites. We’ll know then soon their Y, and, of course, I hope that some R springs up.

Wow! That is splendid news!

I am betting (without risking any real money, of course) they don't find any R1b.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2012, 09:15:33 AM »

Wow! That is splendid news!
I am betting (without risking any real money, of course) they don't find any R1b.
I have written here not only that one of the points in favour of the Italian Refugium is the presence of the path of R1b1 in Italy, both that with YCAII=18-23 and 18-22 and that the Eastern R1b1 derives from the Italian (or European) ones by a RecLOH to 23-23, and that I hoped to find in Europe beyond the R1b1 with YCAII with 22-23 also some with 23-23.
The paper of Cruciani about V88 (Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages, European Journal of Human Genetics (2010) 18, 800–807) found amongst the persons tested all over the world 5 R1b1: 3 in Italy and only 2 elsewhere. The Italian ones had not only YCAII=18-23 but also two with 23-23.
I am so sure that Italy is at the origin of this haplogroup and that it will be found in these tests on aDNA that not only I say that a bet without money isn’t a bet but that it would seem to me to profit by you to bet “au pair”: like in the horse race I think that it would be right to give you an handicap. I bet with you 10,000 dollars against 100,000.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 01:36:59 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2012, 02:37:42 PM »

A linguistic link in favour of the origin of Indo-Europeans from Balkans/Central Europe and before, possibly, from the Italian Refugium of the Adriatic pile dwellers.

We have in Albanian, amongst other words, two linked words which demonstrate an ancient Indo-European ancestry:

herdhë “testicle”
hurdhë “garlic”

They presuppose IE *Hōrģh- and *Hŏrģh-. The meaning is similar or may have had a link in the past.
These words demonstrate that:
1)   Albanian retains, like Hittite, the IE laryngeals, then the ancestors of Albanians (were they Illyrians or Thracian-Illyrians) were the second to separate from united IE after Hittite who migrated to Asia Minor from the Balkans and they remained in the Balkans, probably also in South Balkans where after settled the Greeks.
2)   Greeks lived more to Central Europe, but separated from these people, in fact Greek has the word  ̉όρχίς for the first meaning and for the second one uses the word σκόροδον which is clearly taken from the Balkan substrate of Thracian-Illyrian tradition. In σκόροδον the laryngeal has been preserved for the s- mobile and –ģh- has become -d- like in the Thracian-Illyrian languages.

About my reconstructed *H- see Mallory-Adams, The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World, 2006, p. 55: “Some have suggested that initial *h⁴ is preserved in Albanian as h-, e.g. herdhe ‘testicle’ from * h⁴orĝhiyehª- beside Hittite ark- ‘mount sexually’”.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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