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Author Topic: Royal House of Stewart Y-DNA  (Read 4811 times)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2012, 08:54:17 AM »

Here is something interesting from the Stewart Stuart DNA Project:

Quote
17 Apr 2012: ScotlandsDNA announced that "The DNA of the Duke of Buccleuch was found to be an exact match of a descendant of Charles Stewart of Ardshiel, who fought at Culloden, both men descended from Alan, the Seneschal of Dol, a Breton aristocrat. His family came to Britain in 1066 with William the Conqueror and then made its way to Scotland to found the Stewart line." The Duke of Buccleuch had been SNP tested and found to be positive for L744 (=S388) and L745 (=S463).

L744 and L745 are both downstream of DF41, which is downstream of L21. I guess that is confirmation that the royal Stewart line was/is R-L21.

As I mentioned earlier in this old thread, one of my gg-grandmothers was a Stewart, and I have Family Finder matches to several of the Stewarts who are L744+ L745+. Can't confirm the connection yet, but their Scottish immigrant ancestor went to South Carolina, and my most distant known Stewart ancestor was born in South Carolina in 1801.

Here is an article from The Scotsman that mentions the testing of the Duke of Buccleuch.

And here is one from the Daily Mail online, which runs a ridiculous, sensationalist, attention-grabbing headline, ignoring the Stewarts' ultimate Breton origin.

Now that is interesting: the Duke is the Chief of Clan Scott, and also a Stewart. Did anyone see how long his name is!?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 08:54:40 AM by NealtheRed » Logged

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Mark Jost
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« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2012, 09:08:46 AM »


And here is one from the Daily Mail online, which runs a ridiculous, sensationalist, attention-grabbing headline, ignoring the Stewarts' ultimate Breton origin.

A new DNA study has revealed that the Royal Stewart DNA can be traced back to the much less tartan-infested lands of southwest England.

The Stewarts actually hailed from Cornwall.

Scottish nationalists may also be dismayed to hear that the DNA differences between Scots and English are negligible.

So now that the RStewarts are now under DF41, throws an additional spot light into the mix.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
sernam
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« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2012, 09:56:35 AM »

There appears to be five principal houses in the Scottish monarchs
House of Alpin (848–1034).
House of Dunkeld, 1034–1286.
House of Fairhair (1286–1290), disputed Margaret of Norway
House of Balliol (1292–1296).
House of Bruce (1306–1371)
House of Stewart/Stuart (1371–1567)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scottish_monarchs
Can we assume that all with the exception of Margaret were M222, with the House of Stewart assumed L746.

What makes you think that, with the exception of the Stewarts, they were all M222? That seems highly unlikely to me.


If we assume Kenneth Mac Alpin was M222 as he was King of Dal Riada, who Moffat and Wilson say we're M222 and as Mac Alpin had a Gaelic genealogy back to Niall.
It appears that there is a direct male line of succession in the House of Alpin and The House of Dunkeld.
The exception in the house of Alpin was Eochaid. However his successor Donald II son of Constantine I reestablished the male line.
Duncan I succeeded to the throne as the maternal grandson of Malcolm II (he was also the heir-general of Malcolm I, as his paternal grandfather, Duncan of Atholl was the third son of Malcolm I. The House of Dunkeld was therefore a continuation of the House of Alpine)
On closer inspection both John de Balliol and Rober Bruce both great-grandson of William I's younger brother David of Huntingdon did not carry on the direct male line.
So if the above is correct the M222 marker ended with Alexander III.
 


I'm not sure if MacAlpin was M222 but Crinan of Dunkeld most likely was, since Crinan seems to be from the Ui Niall, Cenel Conaill.

Quote from: A.D. on December 06, 2011, 09:29:56 PM
"McAlpin is thought to be a Pictish name. Isn't it? I thought the Picts were centered around Scone a bit father east than M222 center."

Not a version of an Angle name?
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A.D.
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« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2012, 10:08:13 AM »

A lot of protestants left Ireland and settled in the U.S. in the 17th ans 18th centuries there was a lot of back and forth migration of protestants who eventually went to the U.S. I was thinking maybe some gaps could be due to this if anyone has got that far back. Stewart is quite a popular name in N.Ireland. Some say it's more common among Catholics in N.I. but I don't know. Port Stewart on the N. coast is very Protestant. 
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2012, 05:29:03 PM »

Just as well I sponsored a L744+/L745+/L746+ to test DF41. I was in abit of an "arms race" to get DF41 on the ISOGG tree. As a safety I sponsored both the above and a L555+ to test. Things are now alot more interesting that's for sure!

-Paul
(DF41*)
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rms2
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« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2012, 06:20:00 AM »


And here is one from the Daily Mail online, which runs a ridiculous, sensationalist, attention-grabbing headline, ignoring the Stewarts' ultimate Breton origin.

A new DNA study has revealed that the Royal Stewart DNA can be traced back to the much less tartan-infested lands of southwest England.

The Stewarts actually hailed from Cornwall.

Scottish nationalists may also be dismayed to hear that the DNA differences between Scots and English are negligible.

So now that the RStewarts are now under DF41, throws an additional spot light into the mix.

Are you getting that from the Daily Mail article?

There is no dna study that shows the Stewarts "actually hailed from Cornwall".

What the "study" showed was that Richard Scott, the 10th Duke of Buccleuch, matches a descendant of Charles Stewart of Ardshiel (on how many markers, I don't know) and that Scott is L744+ and L745+, both of which are downstream of DF41 and L21.

I'm guessing the "Cornwall" bit came about because the Stewarts are ultimately of Breton origin. Since the dna testing was done by Scotland's DNA, which is the latest incarnation of the former Ethnoancestry, probably Dr. Jim Wilson made some offhanded remark about people from Cornwall settling in Armorica (Brittany) at the close of the Roman Period. Whoever wrote that Daily Mail article ran with that, since it made for a sensational headline.

It's ridiculous, because not all Bretons have ancestry in Cornwall or descend from British who settled in Bretagne at the close of the Roman Period.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2012, 08:04:44 AM »

Re Scotts/Buccleugh etc:
On a slightly different tack, yet another reason to treat each person as an individual.
James, Duke of Monmouth b1649 in Rotterdam, was the illegitimate son of Charles II. He wed Ann Scott & took her surname. She was Duchess of Buccleuch.
Obviously, we appreciate that the Duke's  Y-DNA  wouldn't be via the Scott family, but someone not familiar with his life might have a different view.
Cheers,
Bob
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 08:06:39 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
rms2
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« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2012, 08:16:57 AM »

Re Scotts/Buccleugh etc:
On a slightly different tack, yet another reason to treat each person as an individual.
James, Duke of Monmouth b1649 in Rotterdam, was the illegitimate son of Charles II. He wed Ann Scott & took her surname. She was Duchess of Buccleuch.
Obviously, we appreciate that the Duke's  Y-DNA  wouldn't be via the Scott family, but someone not familiar with his life might have a different view.
Cheers,
Bob

True, but the fact that he matches a descendant of Charles Stewart of Ardshiel confirms what was already known of the Duke of Monmouth, i.e., that he was the illegitimate son of Charles II and Lucy Walter.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 08:17:25 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mark Jost
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« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2012, 09:24:55 AM »


And here is one from the Daily Mail online, which runs a ridiculous, sensationalist, attention-grabbing headline, ignoring the Stewarts' ultimate Breton origin.

A new DNA study has revealed that the Royal Stewart DNA can be traced back to the much less tartan-infested lands of southwest England.

The Stewarts actually hailed from Cornwall.

Scottish nationalists may also be dismayed to hear that the DNA differences between Scots and English are negligible.

So now that the RStewarts are now under DF41, throws an additional spot light into the mix.

Are you getting that from the Daily Mail article?

There is no dna study that shows the Stewarts "actually hailed from Cornwall".

What the "study" showed was that Richard Scott, the 10th Duke of Buccleuch, matches a descendant of Charles Stewart of Ardshiel (on how many markers, I don't know) and that Scott is L744+ and L745+, both of which are downstream of DF41 and L21.

I'm guessing the "Cornwall" bit came about because the Stewarts are ultimately of Breton origin. Since the dna testing was done by Scotland's DNA, which is the latest incarnation of the former Ethnoancestry, probably Dr. Jim Wilson made some offhanded remark about people from Cornwall settling in Armorica (Brittany) at the close of the Roman Period. Whoever wrote that Daily Mail article ran with that, since it made for a sensational headline.

It's ridiculous, because not all Bretons have ancestry in Cornwall or descend from British who settled in Bretagne at the close of the Roman Period.

I dunno... here is a partial re-post of a section from the:

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/features/scotland-s-dna-land-of-the-britons-1-2025380

"
Published on Tuesday 27 December 2011 12:05

In our continuing series on Scotland’s genetic history, Alistair Moffat delves into surnames, which help to reveal a surprising Celtic Briton enclave that thrived around the Bonnie Banks"

...
"Now comes a fascinating twist in a familiar story. In Brittany, the land of Walter the Steward’s ancestors, there exists a very high proportion of men with the S145 marker, as many as in south-west England, Celtic Cornwall and Devon and far more than in the rest of western Europe. There is a historical reason for this quirk. Brittany literally means Little Britain, a name acquired between 400AD and 600AD, the period when Saxons raiders became invaders and settlers. As the Roman Empire in Britain and Western Europe collapsed, they drove out large numbers of native British and they crossed the English Channel to escape and found communities in Brittany. Several place-names such as Bretteville recall the refugees. It may well be, on the evidence of DNA, that the Stewart dynasty of Scotland and of Great Britain and Ireland actually originated in the south or south-west of England and not on the western edges of Normandy. One scion of a famous Scottish aristocratic family who is definitely descended in the Stewart line has had his DNA tested recently and more may well be revealed."
Emphasis Added
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2012, 09:09:55 PM »

. . .

"Now comes a fascinating twist in a familiar story. In Brittany, the land of Walter the Steward’s ancestors, there exists a very high proportion of men with the S145 marker, as many as in south-west England, Celtic Cornwall and Devon and far more than in the rest of western Europe. There is a historical reason for this quirk. Brittany literally means Little Britain, a name acquired between 400AD and 600AD, the period when Saxons raiders became invaders and settlers. As the Roman Empire in Britain and Western Europe collapsed, they drove out large numbers of native British and they crossed the English Channel to escape and found communities in Brittany. Several place-names such as Bretteville recall the refugees. It may well be, on the evidence of DNA, that the Stewart dynasty of Scotland and of Great Britain and Ireland actually originated in the south or south-west of England and not on the western edges of Normandy. One scion of a famous Scottish aristocratic family who is definitely descended in the Stewart line has had his DNA tested recently and more may well be revealed."
Emphasis Added

There you have it. Moffat is saying that the "S145" (L21) in Brittany should be chalked up to British emigrants fleeing the Anglo-Saxons.

First off, not all the L21 in Brittany can or should be attributed to British settlers. Second, it is likely the British who settled in Brittany were fleeing the Irish rather than the Anglo-Saxons. Most of the British who settled in Brittany came from Cornwall and Wales. When they began their exodus, the Anglo-Saxons hadn't gotten that far and weren't troubling them, but they were facing raids and settlements by the Irish.

So, the idea that the Stewarts' Breton ancestry is really Cornish is just idle speculation based on error.
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rms2
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« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2012, 07:02:38 AM »

Have you read the accounts of the execution of the Duke of Monmouth at the hands of the famous headsman, Jack Ketch? Pretty horrific: anywhere from five to eight strokes with the axe before the Duke finally expired. Interesting that Ketch was an Irish immigrant. That was a case of a likely R-L21 cutting off the head of another R-L21.

Oliver Cromwell was partly responsible for the death of an earlier and even more famous Stewart, Charles I. Cromwell himself was Welsh in his y-dna line, so there's a good chance he was R-L21, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KvQooa-orU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig8lwsb_Gyw&feature=related
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 07:06:31 AM by rms2 » Logged

Castlebob
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« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2012, 09:09:29 AM »

Yes, Gruesome. Judge Jefferies did for Sir Thomas Armstrong of Rye House Plot fame. Sir Thomas was a friend of the Duke. The Duke had a mistress based in Bedfordshire, my home county. I live in the south now, & an hour ago drove past the house Monmouth was held prisoner after being captured by the king's troops.
Interestingly, although Sir Thomas was implicated in an aborted assassination attempt on King Charles, Archie Armstrong was the beloved jester to James I  & Charles.
I have lots of docs from the time - fascinating.
Cheers,
Bob
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 10:44:37 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
Mark Jost
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« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2012, 12:41:33 PM »

The powers that be (Land Owners ect) just didnt like a Commonwealth with written constitutions did they?
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
sernam
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« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2012, 01:04:45 PM »

Brittany literally means Little Britain, a name acquired between 400AD and 600AD, the period when Saxons raiders became invaders and settlers. As the Roman Empire in Britain and Western Europe collapsed, they drove out large numbers of native British and they crossed the English Channel to escape and found communities in Brittany.
IIRC there was originally British settlement there in the 300's prior to Anglo Saxons going to Britain
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rms2
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« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2012, 06:59:44 AM »

Have you seen the modest little house where the Duke of Buccleuch lives?
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2012, 08:20:56 AM »

Have you seen the modest little house where the Duke of Buccleuch lives?

What a dump ;)
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« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2012, 12:28:34 PM »

Just been reading this subject and I see mention of descendants of Jason Edward Stewart, born 1801 mentioned! Autosomal DNA testing has turned up some new distant cousins who, like me, have Stewart in their pedigree. The above man appears tobe from the same Stewarts as my own Stewart line in Scotland.

Love to make contact with you.
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rms2
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« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2012, 08:02:23 PM »

Just been reading this subject and I see mention of descendants of Jason Edward Stewart, born 1801 mentioned! Autosomal DNA testing has turned up some new distant cousins who, like me, have Stewart in their pedigree. The above man appears tobe from the same Stewarts as my own Stewart line in Scotland.

Love to make contact with you.

Jason Edward Stewart is one of my third great grandfathers on my mother's side. I'll send you a message. I have Family Finder matches with several of the L745+ "Royal Stewarts" that I am pretty sure come by way of him and his daughter, Orpha Stewart, my second great grandmother.
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