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Author Topic: Royal House of Stewart Y-DNA  (Read 4905 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: December 03, 2011, 02:36:37 AM »

In all reality, the Normans won in the end. Look at the Stewart family, a Breton contingent with William the Conqueror that would one day inherit the UK monarchy....
So what do you think of the cluster of R-L21 that calls themselves the Royal Stewarts? I've never looked at their genealogy.

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Heber
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« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2011, 04:33:26 AM »

In all reality, the Normans won in the end. Look at the Stewart family, a Breton contingent with William the Conqueror that would one day inherit the UK monarchy....
So what do you think of the cluster of R-L21 that calls themselves the Royal Stewarts? I've never looked at their genealogy.



There is an alternative genealogy which traces the Stewarts back to the Kings of Scotland, Kenneth McAlpin, Ferguson MorMacErc the DalRiada and ultimately to Ireland. Of course the Stewarts had many ancestral lines. This would be a good test for genetic genealogy as it is a well documented ancient lineage.

"All members of the Ancient Stewart who have tested for L746 have had POSITIVE results, so it looks as though L746 is a marker for the Ancient Stewarts."
The common ancestor is Alexander II (1214 - 1249).

Generation One
Fergus MorMacErc
Acceded circa 490
Died (killed) 501   

Generation Thirteen
Kenneth (I) MacAlpin who united the Scots and the Picts with the establishment of the Kindom of Alba, which comprised Dalriada and the Kingdom of the Picts.
Acceded: 839
Died: 859 at Forteviot, Perthshire and interred at the Isle of Iona, Scotland
Kenneth MacAlpin had the following children:

Constantine I
Aedh (Ethus) "Swift-Foot" who was King of Alba 876 - 878
Eochaid MacAlpin who married Rùn Macarthgail, King of Strathclyde.  Their son:
Eocha ruled jointly with his cousin Giric as Kings of Alba 878 - 889
a daughter who married Aed Findliath macNéill Caille O'Néill, King of Ireland & Ailech
a daughter who married Olaf, King of Dublin.


Generation Twenty-six
Robert de Bruce, Lord of Annandale who was one of the 13 claimants to the Throne in 1291
Born:  1210 (See Sir John Balfour Paul, The Scots Peerage, Edinburgh, 1905, Vol. 2, pg. 430)
Died: 1295
Married first on May 12, 1240 to Isabel de Clare, daughter of Magna Charta Surety Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester.
Click on De Clare for the descent of Isabel de Clare.
Robert and Isabel had a son:

Robert Bruce, Earl of Carrick

Generation Thirty
Robert (II) Stewart, King of Scotland who was in command of the second division of the Scottish Army at Halidon Hill, and was one of the few who escaped the carnage of that disastrous day.
Born on March 2, 1316 at Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland
Acceded on March 26, 1371 at Scone Abbey, Perthshire
Died on April 19, 1390 at Dundonald Castle, Ayrshire
Robert Stewart married about 1347 to Elizabeth Mure of Rowallan.

http://www.robertsewell.ca/scotlandkings.html

http://www.royal.gov.uk/pdf/scottish.pdf

http://www.royal.gov.uk/HistoryoftheMonarchy/Scottish%20Monarchs(400ad-1603)/TheStewarts/TheStewarts.aspx

This is the official Royal Genealogy.


« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 06:54:30 AM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2011, 07:36:08 AM »

In all reality, the Normans won in the end. Look at the Stewart family, a Breton contingent with William the Conqueror that would one day inherit the UK monarchy....
So what do you think of the cluster of R-L21 that calls themselves the Royal Stewarts? I've never looked at their genealogy.



There is an alternative genealogy which traces the Stewarts back to the Kings of Scotland, Kenneth McAlpin, Ferguson MorMacErc the DalRiada and ultimately to Ireland. Of course the Stewarts had many ancestral lines. This would be a good test for genetic genealogy as it is a well documented ancient lineage.

"All members of the Ancient Stewart who have tested for L746 have had POSITIVE results, so it looks as though L746 is a marker for the Ancient Stewarts."
The common ancestor is Alexander II (1214 - 1249).

Generation One
Fergus MorMacErc
Acceded circa 490
Died (killed) 501   

Generation Thirteen
Kenneth (I) MacAlpin who united the Scots and the Picts with the establishment of the Kindom of Alba, which comprised Dalriada and the Kingdom of the Picts.
Acceded: 839
Died: 859 at Forteviot, Perthshire and interred at the Isle of Iona, Scotland
Kenneth MacAlpin had the following children:

Constantine I
Aedh (Ethus) "Swift-Foot" who was King of Alba 876 - 878
Eochaid MacAlpin who married Rùn Macarthgail, King of Strathclyde.  Their son:
Eocha ruled jointly with his cousin Giric as Kings of Alba 878 - 889
a daughter who married Aed Findliath macNéill Caille O'Néill, King of Ireland & Ailech
a daughter who married Olaf, King of Dublin.


Generation Twenty-six
Robert de Bruce, Lord of Annandale who was one of the 13 claimants to the Throne in 1291
Born:  1210 (See Sir John Balfour Paul, The Scots Peerage, Edinburgh, 1905, Vol. 2, pg. 430)
Died: 1295
Married first on May 12, 1240 to Isabel de Clare, daughter of Magna Charta Surety Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester.
Click on De Clare for the descent of Isabel de Clare.
Robert and Isabel had a son:

Robert Bruce, Earl of Carrick

Generation Thirty
Robert (II) Stewart, King of Scotland who was in command of the second division of the Scottish Army at Halidon Hill, and was one of the few who escaped the carnage of that disastrous day.
Born on March 2, 1316 at Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland
Acceded on March 26, 1371 at Scone Abbey, Perthshire
Died on April 19, 1390 at Dundonald Castle, Ayrshire
Robert Stewart married about 1347 to Elizabeth Mure of Rowallan.

http://www.robertsewell.ca/scotlandkings.html

http://www.royal.gov.uk/pdf/scottish.pdf

http://www.royal.gov.uk/HistoryoftheMonarchy/Scottish%20Monarchs(400ad-1603)/TheStewarts/TheStewarts.aspx

This is the official Royal Genealogy.

Are they saying that line is the direct male (y-dna) lineage? I have never heard any of the Stewarts dispute the Breton, FitzAlan, y-dna lineage.

The lineage you posted above has huge generational gaps in it. It's not clear whether it is claimed as the straight y-dna line or as another royal collateral line that came down through one or more females.
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y24
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« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2011, 07:45:21 AM »

In all reality, the Normans won in the end. Look at the Stewart family, a Breton contingent with William the Conqueror that would one day inherit the UK monarchy....
So what do you think of the cluster of R-L21 that calls themselves the Royal Stewarts? I've never looked at their genealogy.
Regarding TMRCA calculations for this group (Mike's 1011-STU), there was an age estimate in the "Analysis of R-L21 and Subgroups" pdf that Alex Williamson made back in July of 2011.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/

His calculation gives group's age as 590.275±86.3905 years. This suggests the founder was alive sometime between 1335 and 1507 AD. Does this agree with estimates that others have made?
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2011, 07:57:12 AM »

According to that last link Heber posted, "The Stewart dynasty descended from King Robert I's daughter and her husband, Walter the Steward" (italics mine). So, the descent from Robert the Bruce came via his daughter, Marjorie, who married Walter FitzAlan. So, that is no "alternative genealogy". It actually reiterates the Breton y-dna descent of the Stewarts.

As far as I can tell, it is also through Robert the Bruce (Robert I) that the Stewarts acquired descent from Kenneth MacAlpin. Once again, that came via Robert the Bruce's daughter, Marjorie.

So, as far as I can tell, there is no alternative genealogy, not in terms of y-dna, anyway.

No one is saying the Stewarts descended on the y-dna side from anyone other than the Breton Alan FitzFlaad, whose immediate descendants were known by the family name FitzAlan.
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2011, 07:59:17 AM »

In all reality, the Normans won in the end. Look at the Stewart family, a Breton contingent with William the Conqueror that would one day inherit the UK monarchy....
So what do you think of the cluster of R-L21 that calls themselves the Royal Stewarts? I've never looked at their genealogy.
Regarding TMRCA calculations for this group (Mike's 1011-STU), there was an age estimate in the "Analysis of R-L21 and Subgroups" pdf that Alex Williamson made back in July of 2011.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/

His calculation gives group's age as 590.275±86.3905 years. This suggests the founder was alive sometime between 1335 and 1507 AD. Does this agree with estimates that others have made?

The Walter the Steward who married Marjorie, the daughter of Robert the Bruce, lived in the 14th century.
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Heber
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« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2011, 08:59:12 AM »

Rich,
If we look at the official royal pedigree (Scottish.pdr) there appears to be a direct male line from Kenneth McAlpin to Alexander III and from Robert Bruce to James VI. When Alexander III died from a fall from his horse, he left no male heir so he was the last of the Gaelic male line. Robert de Bruce was from French Norman stock.

http://www.royal.gov.uk/pdf/scottish.pdf



« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 09:39:35 AM by Heber » Logged

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2011, 02:51:38 PM »

Rich,
If we look at the official royal pedigree (Scottish.pdr) there appears to be a direct male line from Kenneth McAlpin to Alexander III and from Robert Bruce to James VI. When Alexander III died from a fall from his horse, he left no male heir so he was the last of the Gaelic male line. Robert de Bruce was from French Norman stock.

http://www.royal.gov.uk/pdf/scottish.pdf





Either through the Lord Lyon or the Stewart family itself, I was always under the impression that Alan FitzFlaad was the direct ancestor of the male line. The connection with the Bruce family appears to be through a maternal lineage somewhere.
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Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2011, 07:43:24 PM »

Rich,
If we look at the official royal pedigree (Scottish.pdr) there appears to be a direct male line from Kenneth McAlpin to Alexander III and from Robert Bruce to James VI. When Alexander III died from a fall from his horse, he left no male heir so he was the last of the Gaelic male line. Robert de Bruce was from French Norman stock.

http://www.royal.gov.uk/pdf/scottish.pdf


Kenneth MacAlpin, Alexander III, and Robert the Bruce were not Stewarts. There is no direct male line from any of them to James VI.

It was Robert I the Bruce's daughter Marjorie who married Walter the Steward and connected the MacAlpin line up to the Stewarts, who descend in their y-dna from Walter the Steward, not from Kenneth MacAlpin, Alexander III or Robert I.

James VI was a Stewart because he was a direct y-dna descendant of Walter the Steward. James VI was descended from Kenneth MacAlpin and Robert the Bruce through Marjorie, Robert the Bruce's daughter.

Look at the charts you linked to. They're fairly clear.

The y-dna line was Breton and came through Walter the Steward back to Alan FitzFlaad, whose descendants were known by the family name FitzAlan.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 08:12:38 PM by rms2 » Logged

y24
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« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2011, 09:24:08 PM »

Alan Fitz Flaad was thought to be alive in the late eleventh/early twelfth century. The "Royal Stewart" L746 cluster age estimate (above) might suggest a TMRCA of 1420AD (+/-86)?
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2011, 03:53:05 AM »

In all reality, the Normans won in the end. Look at the Stewart family, a Breton contingent with William the Conqueror that would one day inherit the UK monarchy....
So what do you think of the cluster of R-L21 that calls themselves the Royal Stewarts? I've never looked at their genealogy.



There is an alternative genealogy which traces the Stewarts back to the Kings of Scotland, Kenneth McAlpin, Ferguson MorMacErc the DalRiada and ultimately to Ireland. Of course the Stewarts had many ancestral lines. This would be a good test for genetic genealogy as it is a well documented ancient lineage.

"All members of the Ancient Stewart who have tested for L746 have had POSITIVE results, so it looks as though L746 is a marker for the Ancient Stewarts."
The common ancestor is Alexander II (1214 - 1249).

In all reality, the Normans won in the end. Look at the Stewart family, a Breton contingent with William the Conqueror that would one day inherit the UK monarchy....
So what do you think of the cluster of R-L21 that calls themselves the Royal Stewarts? I've never looked at their genealogy.
Regarding TMRCA calculations for this group (Mike's 1011-STU), there was an age estimate in the "Analysis of R-L21 and Subgroups" pdf that Alex Williamson made back in July of 2011.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/

His calculation gives group's age as 590.275±86.3905 years. This suggests the founder was alive sometime between 1335 and 1507 AD. Does this agree with estimates that others have made?

I've worked with the RS' and using the Descendants of High Stewards of Scotland who tested at the Y-DNA111 level kits with some tested L746+.  Fluxus Rho is 6 mutations. Using 30 years per generation at a 0.2% rate which is 136 years per mutation, the TMRCA for all the Descendants kits is 816 +- 162.4 years with a sigma 1.2.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2011, 07:31:08 AM »

Well, the common y-dna ancestor cannot be Alexander II, because he is not in the Stewart y-dna line.

As far as I can tell from the charts at the link posted by Heber, the Stewarts aren't even descended from Alexander II or Alexander III at all but from Robert the Bruce (Robert I) through a female line, that is, Robert's daughter, Marjorie, who married Walter the Steward.

Perhaps you didn't mean to imply that Alexander II was the common y-dna ancestor, but the way you organized the quote boxes above, when taken with the tmrca estimate you gave, created that impression.

Honestly, the tmrca dates you and y24 got, if they mean anything at all, would seem to zero in on Walter the Steward, since he lived in the 14th century and is known to have been the High Steward of Scotland, which is why the Stewarts are called by the surname Stewart (i.e., Steward).
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 07:39:09 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2011, 09:00:31 AM »

Well, the common y-dna ancestor cannot be Alexander II, because he is not in the Stewart y-dna line.

As far as I can tell from the charts at the link posted by Heber, the Stewarts aren't even descended from Alexander II or Alexander III at all but from Robert the Bruce (Robert I) through a female line, that is, Robert's daughter, Marjorie, who married Walter the Steward.

Perhaps you didn't mean to imply that Alexander II was the common y-dna ancestor, but the way you organized the quote boxes above, when taken with the tmrca estimate you gave, created that impression.

Honestly, the tmrca dates you and y24 got, if they mean anything at all, would seem to zero in on Walter the Steward, since he lived in the 14th century and is known to have been the High Steward of Scotland, which is why the Stewarts are called by the surname Stewart (i.e., Steward).


In fact, as far as I can tell, Robert the Bruce (Robert I) also acquired his descent from the House of Alpin via a female, Isobel, the daughter of David, the Earl of Huntington, the grandson of David I.

So, it takes a jog through TWO females for the Stewarts to get their connection to Kenneth MacAlpin, first, through Robert the Bruce's great-grandmother, Isobel, and then through Robert's daughter, Marjorie.

Isobel is the first connection to the House of Alpin. She was Robert the Bruce's great-grandmother, the wife of his great-grandfather, Robert de Brus, the 4th Lord of Annandale.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 09:05:50 AM by rms2 » Logged

Heber
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« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2011, 05:41:16 PM »

There appears to be five principal houses in the Scottish monarchs
House of Alpin (848–1034).
House of Dunkeld, 1034–1286.
House of Fairhair (1286–1290), disputed Margaret of Norway
House of Balliol (1292–1296).
House of Bruce (1306–1371)
House of Stewart/Stuart (1371–1567)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scottish_monarchs
Can we assume that all with the exception of Margaret were M222, with the House of Stewart assumed L746.


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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2011, 06:07:51 PM »

I was point to the fact that using the existing list of desendants who all appear to be L746+ have a TMRCA range of 654 to 978 years from the current haplotypes. Who ever the paternal line was, the known paper trail of all these guys, as shown by a Phylogenetic tree, has six mutations. I used 30 years per generation. Anybody have a different average years per generation based on their paper try?
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2011, 08:03:36 PM »

There appears to be five principal houses in the Scottish monarchs
House of Alpin (848–1034).
House of Dunkeld, 1034–1286.
House of Fairhair (1286–1290), disputed Margaret of Norway
House of Balliol (1292–1296).
House of Bruce (1306–1371)
House of Stewart/Stuart (1371–1567)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scottish_monarchs
Can we assume that all with the exception of Margaret were M222, with the House of Stewart assumed L746.

What makes you think that, with the exception of the Stewarts, they were all M222? That seems highly unlikely to me.
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rms2
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« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2011, 08:08:52 PM »

One of my great-great grandmothers was a Stewart: Orpha L. Stewart (1842-1883).

Of course, she was born in Tennessee, and I have no idea whether her Stewart line has any connection to the famous royal Stewarts. It would be neat if it did, but I'll probably never know it . . . in this life, anyway.

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Heber
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« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2011, 03:15:53 PM »

There appears to be five principal houses in the Scottish monarchs
House of Alpin (848–1034).
House of Dunkeld, 1034–1286.
House of Fairhair (1286–1290), disputed Margaret of Norway
House of Balliol (1292–1296).
House of Bruce (1306–1371)
House of Stewart/Stuart (1371–1567)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scottish_monarchs
Can we assume that all with the exception of Margaret were M222, with the House of Stewart assumed L746.

What makes you think that, with the exception of the Stewarts, they were all M222? That seems highly unlikely to me.


If we assume Kenneth Mac Alpin was M222 as he was King of Dal Riada, who Moffat and Wilson say we're M222 and as Mac Alpin had a Gaelic genealogy back to Niall.
It appears that there is a direct male line of succession in the House of Alpin and The House of Dunkeld.
The exception in the house of Alpin was Eochaid. However his successor Donald II son of Constantine I reestablished the male line.
Duncan I succeeded to the throne as the maternal grandson of Malcolm II (he was also the heir-general of Malcolm I, as his paternal grandfather, Duncan of Atholl was the third son of Malcolm I. The House of Dunkeld was therefore a continuation of the House of Alpine)
On closer inspection both John de Balliol and Rober Bruce both great-grandson of William I's younger brother David of Huntingdon did not carry on the direct male line.
So if the above is correct the M222 marker ended with Alexander III.
 
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2011, 07:00:43 PM »

Like Rich, I have Stewart ancestors from Tennesse, so I have an interest in the surname.

King James I/VI once said, "Not all Stewarts are kinsmen of the king." Since it is a surname derived from the common office of steward, it is to be expected that there would be many of the surname who are absolutely no relation.

On the other forum, a claim was made awhile back that the royal family of Scotland were actually descended from a Frank who settled in Brittany, which would automatically make them U106 (of course!).

There is a Ysearch entry for what purports to be the probable haplotype of the Royal Stewarts: QHV9S. I had a look at it, and ran a search for matches of a GD of 6 or less at 37 markers with the surname Stewart. There were 38 matches, 19 with a GD of 6 or less at 67 markers, and 19 with a GD of 6 or less at 37. Their origins are listed primarily as Scotland or the USA, with a few from Ireland. All who have been deep clade tested are L21.

I realize it is possible to be this closely connected and to have the same surname, but not actually be related within the timeframe of surnames. However there was one entry with a GD of 1 at 67, 5 with a GD of 2 at 67, and another 3 who were a GD of 3 at 67. I think it is quite likely that most if not all of these Stewarts  have a common male ancestor who lived many centuries ago. This is exactly what I would expect to see with the Royal Stewart line. I'm not sure I would expect this pattern from someone who served as a steward on some obscure manor in Scotland in the 14th century.

When I ran it without the  Stewart filter, there was also a match with a FitzAlan, but I didn't pursue it.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 07:21:43 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
OConnor
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« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2011, 08:29:01 PM »

My Grandmother's maiden name was Stewart. (my maternal line)
She told me her Stewarts came from the Isle of Skye. Her mother's name was Martin, also from Isle of Skye. I'm sure I heard "Royal Stewart" mentioned a few times when the old folks start talking about who is related to who.

There is also the spelling Stuart from Mary Queen of Scots(France).

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Wiki: (Bottom of page)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Stuart

The name Stewart derives from the political position of office similar to a governor, known as a steward. It was originally adopted as the family surname by Walter Stewart, 3rd High Steward of Scotland, who was the third member of the family to hold the position. Prior to this, family names were not used, but instead they had patronyms defined through the father; for example the first two High Stewards were known as FitzAlan and FitzWalter respectively. During the 16th century the French spelling Stuart was adopted by Mary, Queen of Scots when she was living in France. She sanctioned the change to ensure the correct pronunciation of the Scots version of the name Stewart, because retaining the letter 'w' would have made it difficult for French speakers. The spelling Stuart was also used by her second husband, Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley; he was the father of James VI and I, so the spelling Stuart for the British royal family officially derives from him.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
The Stewart Story
http://www.clanstewart.org/History/ClanHistory.asp
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 08:38:12 PM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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A.D.
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« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2011, 09:29:56 PM »

McAlpin is thought to be a Pictish name. Isn't it? I thought the Picts were centered around Scone a bit father east than M222 center.
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Heber
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« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2011, 11:59:05 PM »

McAlpin is thought to be a Pictish name. Isn't it? I thought the Picts were centered around Scone a bit father east than M222 center.

Here is what Moffat and Wilson have to say on the subject:
"In 839, a battle was fought in Strathern that may have spelled the end of the Pictish kingdom south of the Mounth. A great force of Vikings slaughtered the Pictish nobility in such numbers that a power vacuum allowed Kenneth to establish himself in Pictland in the aftermath. He may not have been the first Dalriadian king to rule east of  Drumalbal, but all Scottish kings are numbered from him, and with him a process of unification did appear to begin in earnest." And in a later chapter .... McAlpins DNA was almost certainly Irish/Celtic..."

And from Wiki:
"Medieval genealogies are unreliable sources, but many historians still accept Kenneth's descent from the established Cenél nGabráin, or at the very least from some unknown minor sept of the Dál Riata. The manuscript provides the following ancestry for Kenneth:
...Cináed son of Alpín son of Eochaid son of Áed Find son of Domangart son of Domnall Brecc son of Eochaid Buide son of Áedán son of Gabrán son of Domangart son of Fergus Mór ...[7]"

And back to Niall:

Kenneth I MacAlpin (Scotland)
Alpin MacEochaid Dalraida
Eochaidh IV MacFergus Dalraida
Fergus MacAehd
Aehd Find MacEochaid
Eochaidh III
Findon (Eochaid II)
Domongart II MacDomnaill
Domnall Brecc
Eochaidh I Buidhe
Edhan Aidan
Gabhran
Donart
Fergus Mor Mac- (about 420 came to Scotland)
Muredach (Erc)
Eoghan Owen
Niall Mor, "Niall of the Nine Hostages".

It woul be interesting to see if any of this is supported by DNA.

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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



OConnor
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« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2011, 08:56:19 AM »

There are probably many similar sequences under many different surnames, and if people wanted to they could probably find enough dna connections to suit their own Niall connection.



« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 09:00:42 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2011, 09:58:06 PM »

My Grandmother's maiden name was Stewart. (my maternal line)
She told me her Stewarts came from the Isle of Skye. Her mother's name was Martin, also from Isle of Skye. I'm sure I heard "Royal Stewart" mentioned a few times when the old folks start talking about who is related to who.

There is also the spelling Stuart from Mary Queen of Scots(France).

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Wiki: (Bottom of page)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Stuart

The name Stewart derives from the political position of office similar to a governor, known as a steward. It was originally adopted as the family surname by Walter Stewart, 3rd High Steward of Scotland, who was the third member of the family to hold the position. Prior to this, family names were not used, but instead they had patronyms defined through the father; for example the first two High Stewards were known as FitzAlan and FitzWalter respectively. During the 16th century the French spelling Stuart was adopted by Mary, Queen of Scots when she was living in France. She sanctioned the change to ensure the correct pronunciation of the Scots version of the name Stewart, because retaining the letter 'w' would have made it difficult for French speakers. The spelling Stuart was also used by her second husband, Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley; he was the father of James VI and I, so the spelling Stuart for the British royal family officially derives from him.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
The Stewart Story
http://www.clanstewart.org/History/ClanHistory.asp

I don't know much about my Stewart line. I can't get it past my ggg-grandfather, Jason Edward Stewart, who was born in South Carolina in 1801. He ended up in McKenzie, Carroll County, Tennessee, by the 1830 census. The name "McKenzie" for the town is interesting. My impression is that there were a lot of Scots and Scots-Irish there back then. Tennessee is still strongly Scots-Irish.

I would like to think the immigrant in my Stewart line was some stout Jacobite, like the character Alan Breck Stewart in Stevenson's story, Kidnapped. :-)
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rms2
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« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2012, 08:13:03 AM »

Here is something interesting from the Stewart Stuart DNA Project:

Quote
17 Apr 2012: ScotlandsDNA announced that "The DNA of the Duke of Buccleuch was found to be an exact match of a descendant of Charles Stewart of Ardshiel, who fought at Culloden, both men descended from Alan, the Seneschal of Dol, a Breton aristocrat. His family came to Britain in 1066 with William the Conqueror and then made its way to Scotland to found the Stewart line." The Duke of Buccleuch had been SNP tested and found to be positive for L744 (=S388) and L745 (=S463).

L744 and L745 are both downstream of DF41, which is downstream of L21. I guess that is confirmation that the royal Stewart line was/is R-L21.

As I mentioned earlier in this old thread, one of my gg-grandmothers was a Stewart, and I have Family Finder matches to several of the Stewarts who are L744+ L745+. Can't confirm the connection yet, but their Scottish immigrant ancestor went to South Carolina, and my most distant known Stewart ancestor was born in South Carolina in 1801.

Here is an article from The Scotsman that mentions the testing of the Duke of Buccleuch.

And here is one from the Daily Mail online, which runs a ridiculous, sensationalist, attention-grabbing headline, ignoring the Stewarts' ultimate Breton origin.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 08:36:23 AM by rms2 » Logged

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