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Humanist
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« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2011, 07:29:11 AM »

L584 looks like a good possibility for later Hittite, Hurrian, and maybe Assyrian connections.

A related post, on DNA-Forums: http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/15899-alawite-eti-n-syrian-r1b-rate-and-haplotypes/page__view__findpost__p__290130

When the Israelites ("Ten Tribes") were deported, certain parts of the Levant were resettled by Assyrians.  Also, in the revolt of 720, in addition to Hamath, Damascus also participated.  Compare "Jabal Druze" to Damascus, in the map contained in the post referred to above.  Just one of several possible explanations.  Some predating the Assyrian periods (Hurrian/Mitanni, Hyksos and earlier).  

"Sargon II, however, who had ousted his brother Shalmaneser in 722 BC from the Assyrian throne,
faced massive resistance against his rule in the early years of his reign (Fuchs 2009, 53f.), in the Assyrian
heartland as well as further away where the western provinces carved out of the former kingdoms of
Hamath, Arpad, Damascus and Israel all rose in revolt. After Sargon eventually managed to crush the
revolt in 720 BC, the rebellion’s epicentre Hamath was destroyed and ‘6,300 guilty Assyrians’, people
from the heartland who had supported Shalmaneser, were exiled from the empire’s core region to
Hamath’s ruins, repaying their merciful king for sparing their lives by rebuilding that city (Hawkins
2004, 160: Hama Stele)."

The Assur-Nineveh-Arbela Triangle
Dr. Karen Radner, Professor of Ancient Near Eastern History
University College London
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 07:39:59 AM by Humanist » Logged

Humanist
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« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2011, 08:19:05 AM »

I dont know if Armenia is the origin but it is an interesting place where L23xL5 predominates.  Armenia seems to have more L23xL51 than most places I am aware of.  It has extremely little L51 or L11.  European L23 is much younger in variance that L23 in SW Asia.  The same area is a hotspot of M73 too.  Everything upstream of L23 and M73 seems incredibly rare and scattered to a degree that point of origin looks very hard to determine.  I dont know where L23 originated but Mike's variance calculations suggest it isnt Europe.  He also did a calculation for what I assume was M269 'all' and it got the highest variance in the Levant/Turkey area although because these are interclade I dont feel that too much can be read into it.  It does suggest that its first chance at expansion (which I wonder if it was the first time farming was practiced by R1b peoples) was in the Levant/Turkey area.

The one potentially extremely significant point I would ask everyone to consider, when calculating variance for the Levant, and the Middle East in general, is the massive displacements that occurred during (most often), the 1st millennium BCE.  We are not, all things considered, too far removed from the 1st millennium BCE.  At least not in the genetic genealogical sense.  The Assyrians, Babylonians, and others had, as a standard policy, deportation and resettlement, for "troublesome" populations.

The Wikipedia page on Assyrian military history lists the following deportations.  These are not all the deportations, however.

Quote
744 BC Tiglath Pileser III deports 65,000 people from Iran to the Assyrian-Babylonian border at the Diyala river
742 BC Tiglath Pileser III deports 30,000 people from Hamath, Syria and into the Zagros mountains in the east.
721 BC Sargon II (claimed) deports 27,290 people from Samaria, Israel and disperses them throughout the Empire. However, it is likely that his ousted predecessor, Shalmaneser V ordered the deportation
707 BC Sargon II deports 108,000 Chaldeans and Babylonians from the Babylonian region
703 BC Sennacherib deports 208,000 people from Babylon

Tiglath Pileser III re-introduced deportation on a grand scale, deporting tens, even hundreds of thousands of people.

Deportations were also coupled with Colonization...

Some of the figures, particularly the larger ones, may be embellishments in the official Assyrian record.  These, and similar reports of conquests, were often addressed to the supreme deity Assur himself.     

Unfortunately, I do not have a suggestion how to account for these events when calculating the variance figures.  Perhaps the best we can do is simply keep it in mind, when evaluating whatever figures we come up with.  And, perhaps, what the Middle East experienced in the 1st millennium BCE, Europe experienced itself, with the population movements of the Roman and other eras. 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 08:25:01 AM by Humanist » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2011, 10:36:56 AM »

What Humanist says is true and I too have written a lot about this, but if we, for instance, look at where his mt HV4 is so far put in the haplotree:

HV4 7094
 56. AY738941(Italy) Achilli
 57. EU545447(Russia) Grzybowski
 58. EF417833 FTDNA HV4
 59. HM852851(Turk 185) Schoenberg         
HV4a 16221
HV4a1 13680
 60. DQ112831.2(Europe) Kivisild HV4a1
 61. EF660939(Italy) Gasparre HV4a1
 62. GQ888728(Spain) Garcia Haplogroup HV4a1
 63. GQ888729(Spain) Garcia Haplogroup HV4a1
 64. GQ888730(Spain) Garcia Haplogroup HV4a1
 65. HM765460 Zaragoza HV4a1
 66. HQ675034 Seoane HV4a1a1a
HV4a2 7805 16129
 67. EU935457(Egypt) Kujanova HV4a2
 68. GQ888731(Jordan) Garcia Haplogroup HV4a2
 69. HM228422(Assyrian) FTDNA [Humanist]

we can conclude that this haplogroup was born in Europe (I think having demonstrated in the past that it was in Italy) and migrated later to Middle East. If new data will come out, I’ll be glad to change my opinion, and certainly many HV4a (16221) would be important.
It is in base to the same reasoning and to the same proofs that I have supported all my theories.
   

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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2011, 11:12:29 AM »

The HV4 (16221) is probably our NealtheRead, who probably hasn’t sent his data to GenBank. Probably he isn’t so glad to do a favour to Italy:

Mutations
   HVR1          HVR2
1.   16221T      00146C
2.                 00263G
3.                 00309.1C
4.                 00315.1C

Haplogroup:   HV
Tested with:   Family Tree DNA
Contact person:   Neal Downing     Contact this user

Most distant known maternal ancestor on the direct female line
First Name:   Angelina
Last Name:   Centrella
Year Born:   
Year Died:   
Country of Origin:   Avellino, Italy
Latitude:   40 deg 50 min N
Longitude:   14 deg 15 min E

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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Humanist
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« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2011, 12:28:40 PM »

What Humanist says is true and I too have written a lot about this, but if we, for instance, look at where his mt HV4 is so far put in the haplotree:

HV4 7094
 56. AY738941(Italy) Achilli
 57. EU545447(Russia) Grzybowski
 58. EF417833 FTDNA HV4
 59. HM852851(Turk 185) Schoenberg         
HV4a 16221
HV4a1 13680
 60. DQ112831.2(Europe) Kivisild HV4a1
 61. EF660939(Italy) Gasparre HV4a1
 62. GQ888728(Spain) Garcia Haplogroup HV4a1
 63. GQ888729(Spain) Garcia Haplogroup HV4a1
 64. GQ888730(Spain) Garcia Haplogroup HV4a1
 65. HM765460 Zaragoza HV4a1
 66. HQ675034 Seoane HV4a1a1a
HV4a2 7805 16129
 67. EU935457(Egypt) Kujanova HV4a2
 68. GQ888731(Jordan) Garcia Haplogroup HV4a2
 69. HM228422(Assyrian) FTDNA [Humanist]

we can conclude that this haplogroup was born in Europe (I think having demonstrated in the past that it was in Italy) and migrated later to Middle East. If new data will come out, I’ll be glad to change my opinion, and certainly many HV4a (16221) would be important.
It is in base to the same reasoning and to the same proofs that I have supported all my theories.

It would not bother me if my ancestral lines originated in a place other than the Near East.  As I stated previously, I believe the Near East and most of Europe exist along the same relatively recent genetic continuum.  If HV4 originated in Europe, fine.  In Italy.  Terrific.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 12:32:41 PM by Humanist » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2011, 12:51:55 PM »

If HV4 originated in Europe, fine.  In Italy.  Terrific.
Mine is only a theoretic discourse and a research for truth. It seems that there is a strong effort to demonstrate that R1b was born in Asia or elsewhere and arrived recently to Europe, what is in contrast with all my theories and my efforts of these last years, and two banishments suffered.
I'll be glad if you will consider  terrific all these and, why not, also your G1. It isn't said that it too isn't Italian like certainly G2a4, G2a5, G-L497+ (ancestor of 80% of the European G2a3b1a2).
It seems that the paper written to support the other way around are published every day. The last the paper on the Neolithic mtDNA in Spain, and also my K1a is considered Middle Easterner against all the evidence. We should research the real origin of the Druzes, with their huge presence of K1a and now also of mt X1, against a very low presence of all the other Middle Easterner peoples.
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Maliclavelli


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Humanist
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« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2011, 01:01:47 PM »

I'll be glad if you will consider  terrific all these and, why not, also your G1. It isn't said that it too isn't Italian like certainly G2a4, G2a5, G-L497+ (ancestor of 80% of the European G2a3b1a2).

I honestly would not care.  It is, after all, only a haplogroup.  You seem to think it defines a person.  Or a people.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2011, 02:26:09 PM »

The HV4 (16221) is probably our NealtheRead, who probably hasn’t sent his data to GenBank. Probably he isn’t so glad to do a favour to Italy:

Mutations
   HVR1          HVR2
1.   16221T      00146C
2.                 00263G
3.                 00309.1C
4.                 00315.1C

Haplogroup:   HV
Tested with:   Family Tree DNA
Contact person:   Neal Downing     Contact this user

Most distant known maternal ancestor on the direct female line
First Name:   Angelina
Last Name:   Centrella
Year Born:   
Year Died:   
Country of Origin:   Avellino, Italy
Latitude:   40 deg 50 min N
Longitude:   14 deg 15 min E



The above is my entry in Mitosearch. How do I go about submitting to GenBank? And why would you come to that conclusion when I thoroughly acknowledge my Italian heritage?
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
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« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2011, 02:30:25 PM »

I dont know if Armenia is the origin but it is an interesting place where L23xL5 predominates.  Armenia seems to have more L23xL51 than most places I am aware of.  It has extremely little L51 or L11.  European L23 is much younger in variance that L23 in SW Asia.  The same area is a hotspot of M73 too.  Everything upstream of L23 and M73 seems incredibly rare and scattered to a degree that point of origin looks very hard to determine.  I dont know where L23 originated but Mike's variance calculations suggest it isnt Europe.  He also did a calculation for what I assume was M269 'all' and it got the highest variance in the Levant/Turkey area although because these are interclade I dont feel that too much can be read into it.  It does suggest that its first chance at expansion (which I wonder if it was the first time farming was practiced by R1b peoples) was in the Levant/Turkey area.

The one potentially extremely significant point I would ask everyone to consider, when calculating variance for the Levant, and the Middle East in general, is the massive displacements that occurred during (most often), the 1st millennium BCE.  We are not, all things considered, too far removed from the 1st millennium BCE.  At least not in the genetic genealogical sense.  The Assyrians, Babylonians, and others had, as a standard policy, deportation and resettlement, for "troublesome" populations.

The Wikipedia page on Assyrian military history lists the following deportations.  These are not all the deportations, however.

Quote
744 BC Tiglath Pileser III deports 65,000 people from Iran to the Assyrian-Babylonian border at the Diyala river
742 BC Tiglath Pileser III deports 30,000 people from Hamath, Syria and into the Zagros mountains in the east.
721 BC Sargon II (claimed) deports 27,290 people from Samaria, Israel and disperses them throughout the Empire. However, it is likely that his ousted predecessor, Shalmaneser V ordered the deportation
707 BC Sargon II deports 108,000 Chaldeans and Babylonians from the Babylonian region
703 BC Sennacherib deports 208,000 people from Babylon

Tiglath Pileser III re-introduced deportation on a grand scale, deporting tens, even hundreds of thousands of people.

Deportations were also coupled with Colonization...

Some of the figures, particularly the larger ones, may be embellishments in the official Assyrian record.  These, and similar reports of conquests, were often addressed to the supreme deity Assur himself.    

Unfortunately, I do not have a suggestion how to account for these events when calculating the variance figures.  Perhaps the best we can do is simply keep it in mind, when evaluating whatever figures we come up with.  And, perhaps, what the Middle East experienced in the 1st millennium BCE, Europe experienced itself, with the population movements of the Roman and other eras.  

Hi Humanist,

That is an interesting history. Could you chime in on the Hittites and their areas of influence throughout Northern Mesopotamia and the Levant (namely Syria)?

Could they be contributors to some of this R1b in Mesopotamia? Jean M thinks that the R1b in Armenia comes from the Balkans with the Armenian language.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 02:31:23 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Maliclavelli
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« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2011, 02:45:37 PM »

NealtheRed says:
"Jean M thinks that the R1b in Armenia comes from the Balkans with the Armenian language".

At last! She was one of the strongest supporter of the Kurgan theory and of the Eastern origin of Indo-Europeans and R1b. To say that Armenians come from the Balkans (what I am saying from many years) is already something. In the future she will understand that before they were in the Italian Refugium.

About the submission to GenBank I'll write to you privately. I have submitted my mt, but must yet submit the K1c1 of my wife and sons.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2011, 02:57:18 PM »

@ NealtheRed

I have found in this forum your data. This is the coding region:

750G
1438G
2706G
4769G
5978G
7028T
7094C
8860G
11389T
11944C
13680T
14518G
15326G

and having you 13680T, you are HV4a1.


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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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