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Author Topic: The last (so far) Italian R-L21  (Read 783 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: November 16, 2011, 04:11:53 AM »

196716 Giovanni DeFato b. 1866 of Genzano, Potenza, Italy Italy R1b1a2a1a1b4
13 24 14 10 10-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 27 14-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 16 15 19 17 36-43 12 12
These are his SNPs tested:
196716 Giovanni DeFato b. 1866 of Genzano, Potenza, Italy R1b1a2a1a1b4 R-L21
L144-, L150+, L159.2-, L193-, L2-, L21+, L226-, L96-, M222-, M37-, P312+

He is close to
58702   Italy R1b1a2
13 24 14 10 10-11 12 12 12 13 13 29

Interesting the values 10-11 at DYS385, which presuppose probably a RecLOH from 11-14 to 11-11.

This is the distribution on YHRD:
14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,11 36 >>
14 13 29 24 11 13 13 10,11 2 >>
14 14 30 24 10 13 13 10,11 1 >>
14 13 29 23 10 13 13 10,11 1 >>
 13 13 29 24 10 13 13 10,11 0 >>

1 14 13 29 24 11 13 13 10,11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 13 10,11 12 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 152 New York City, United States [Hispanic American] Admixed North America
1 of 324 Chihuahua, Mexico [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America

1 14 14 30 24 10 13 13 10,11 12 12 15 19 16 17 26 12 >>
1 of 200 Minas Gerais [Admixed] Admixed Latin America

1 14 13 29 23 10 13 13 10,11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 275 Hamburg, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

Of course no guarantee that they are R-L21. More interesting the Admixed from Minas Gerais who is clearly an R1b1a2-something with the rare DYS635=26.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 09:27:45 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2011, 04:55:12 AM »

12 14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
4 14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,11 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
3 14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,11 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
2 14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,11 12 11 14 19 16 19 23 12 >>
2 14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,11 12 12 15 19 15 15 23 12 >>
2 14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,11 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 12 >>
2 14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,11 12 12 15 19 16 18 23 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,11 12 11 14 19 16 20 23 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,11 12 11 14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,11 12 12 15 19 15 18 23 11 >>
1 14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,11 12 12 15 19 15 18 23 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,11 12 12 15 19 16 16 24 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,11 -1 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,11 12 12 15 19 18 17 23 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,11 13 12 14 19 16 17 24 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,11 13 12 15 20 14 18 23 13 >>
3 of 111 Albania [Albanian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
3 of 1239 United States [Hispanic American] Admixed North America
2 of 1079 Australia [European] Eurasian - European - Western European Oceania / Australia
2 of 1277 United States [African American] African - Afro-American North America
2 of 1122 Stuttgart, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
2 of 100 Cape Town, South Africa [European-English] Eurasian - European Africa
2 of 121 Albania [Tosk Albanian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
2 of 1177 Antioquia, Colombia [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
2 of 165 Albania [Gheg Albanian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 93 Bergen, Norway [Norwegian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 766 Australia [Aboriginal] Australian Aboriginal Oceania / Australia
1 of 390 Andalucía/Extremadura, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe 1 of 738 Cologne, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 69 South Dakota, United States [Chippewa/Sioux] Native American North America
1 of 220 East Croatia, Croatia [Croatian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 543 Santander, Colombia [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 120 El Salvador [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 101 Athens, Greece [Greek] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 152 New York City, United States [Hispanic American] Admixed North America
1 of 134 Pyrenees, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 93 Goiás,Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America
1 of 135 Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [African] African - Afro-American Latin America
1 of 199 Valencia, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 447 Sao Paulo, Brazil [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
1 of 99 Strasbourg, France [French] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

The presence of many haplotypes from the Balkans is probably indicative of the Albanian/Balkan cluster of R1b1a2a-L23+. The others diffused in Western Europe, from North-West to Iberia, may be indicative in some cases of R-L21. Anyway no Italian. Then probably this last R-L21 from Italy may be interpreted as due to a descendant of an introgression of the Roman or Medieval times.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

OConnor
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2011, 07:09:15 AM »

maybe one of the Franks?  ;)

I'm no egghead but the 10-11 looks very odd to me.
Do you think there could be a lab error on this one?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 07:11:12 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2011, 09:26:31 AM »

maybe one of the Franks?  ;)

I'm no egghead but the 10-11 looks very odd to me.
Do you think there could be a lab error on this one?
I think that 10-11 is easily explainable by a RecLOH from 11-14 to 11-11 and then a mutation of one 11 (we should do a Kittler test to know which) to 10. Only two mutations: nothing difficult.
About Franks, this DeFato comes from a little town of Lucania/Basilicata (South Italy), near Pietragalla where we found an R-U152: difficult to say where he comes from without more data. But another person matches him at 12 markers, then not so rare.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 09:28:07 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2011, 09:36:39 AM »

Of course having him being tested negative for pretty all the subclades of R-L21 known till a few time ago, it would be very interesting to test him for all other SNPs and my old hypothesis that also the Celt/North-Western European R-L21 may have been born in Italy cannot be excluded.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2011, 10:26:28 AM »

Of course having him being tested negative for pretty all the subclades of R-L21 known till a few time ago, it would be very interesting to test him for all other SNPs and my old hypothesis that also the Celt/North-Western European R-L21 may have been born in Italy cannot be excluded.

Get him to join the R-L21 Plus Project, and we'll see what we can do about sponsoring some further SNP testing, if he is willing.

Thanks for letting us know about this one, Gioiello. I missed it.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2011, 10:35:25 AM »

I have seen him by chance in the Italy Project, but I don't know him and he hasn't a ySearch account. Perhaps you should contact the administrators of the Italy Project at FTDNA. Of course I'd be curious to see other SNPs tested.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2011, 10:37:28 AM »

I have seen him by chance in the Italy Project, but I don't know him and he hasn't a ySearch account. Perhaps you should contact the administrators of the Italy Project at FTDNA. Of course I'd be curious to see other SNPs tested.

Will do.

Interesting location for his ancestor. I expected northern Italy.
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OConnor
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2011, 08:00:02 AM »

Roman DNA Project
http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/11/2011/roman-dna-project-gives-voice-to-the-silent-majority

Perhaps something will come out of this project. Though I have to wonder if the remains will be deep snp tested?
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


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