World Families Forums - About Armenian R-M269

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
September 17, 2014, 07:11:25 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  About Armenian R-M269
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: About Armenian R-M269  (Read 3872 times)
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« on: November 18, 2011, 02:08:52 PM »

The recent paper on Armenians (Kristian J Herrera et al., Neolithic patrilineal signals indicate that the Armenian plateau was repopulated by agriculturalists, European Journal of Human Genetics , (16 November 2011)) presents these 5 R-M269, practically an unique haplotype with a recent common ancestor.

These are the values:
DYS389I=13
DYS389II=29
DYS490=26
DYS456=16
DYS19=15
DYS385=11-14
DYS458=18
DYS437=15
DYS438=12
DYS448=19
H4=12
DYS391=12
DYS392=13
DYS393=12
DYS439=12
DYS635=23

On YHRD there is no match. These are the closest:

1 15 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 173 Maracay, Venezuela [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America

15 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 4 >>
15 13 29 26 11 13 13 11,14 4 >>
14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 3 >>
16 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 0 >>

1 15 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 11 >>
1 15 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 13 14 18 15 17 23 13 >>
1 of 1122 Stuttgart, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 774 Rostock, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 162 Marche, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 124 Bialystok, Poland [Lithuanian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe

1 15 13 29 26 11 13 13 11,14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 13 29 26 11 13 13 11,14 11 10 14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 13 29 26 11 13 13 11,14 11 12 14 20 15 17 22 12 >>
1 15 13 29 26 11 13 13 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 17 24 12 >>
1 of 629 Eastern Slovakia, Slovakia [Slovakian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 78 Santarém, Brazil [Admixed Brazilian] Admixed Latin America
1 of 255 Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil [European] Eurasian - European - Western European Latin America
1 of 685 Berlin, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 11 >>
1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 13 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 249 Çukurova, Turkey [Turk] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
1 of 56 Sardinia, Italy [Sardinian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 98 Rimini, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 11 2 >>
2 of 249 Çukurova, Turkey [Turk] Eurasian - Altaic Asia

14 13 30 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 11 2 >>
1 of 249 Çukurova, Turkey [Turk] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
1 of 393 Warsaw, Poland [Polish] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 11 1 >>
1 of 249 Çukurova, Turkey [Turk] Eurasian - Altaic Asia


And this is the range of the Armenian haplotypes in the “ht 35 Project” at FTDNA

174259 Tour-Sarkissian Turkey R1b1a2
12 24 15 10 11-14 11 13 13 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 27 15-15-17-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 17 17 35-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 17 8 13 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                        
N60445 Chevallier France R1b1a2
12 25 14 10 11-14 11 12 12 13 13 29 15 9-10 11 11 25 15 20 29 15-15-16-17 10 12 19-23 15 15 18 17 38-39 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 10 12 23-23 15 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 12 11 12 12                                                                                        
N77321 Vojcic Serbia R1b1a2
12 25 14 10 11-14 11 12 12 13 13 30                                                  
89847 Blanchard United Kingdom R1b1a2
12 25 14 10 12-15 11 12 13 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 20 33 15-15-16-16 10 10 19-23 16 15 18 17 35-38 12 12                                                                            

131645 Terzian Turkey R1b1a2
12 25 14 11 11-11 11 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-16-18 10 11 18-23 14 15 21 18 34-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 9 13 22-23 17 10 12 12 15 8 13 23 20 13 12 11 13 10 11 12 12                                                                                        
N70609 Anonymous (turkey) Turkey R1b1a2
12 25 14 11 11-14 11 12 11 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 28 14-15-15-16 10 11 19-23 15 16 20 19 36-37 13 12                                                                            

207685 Kortoshian Turkey R1b1a2
12 25 14 11 11-14 11 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-16-18 10 11 18-23 15 15 20 18 34-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 13 22-23 17 10 12 12 15 8 13 23 20 13 12 11 13 10 11 12 12 33 15 9 16 13 26 26 19 12 11 12 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 12 28 12 13 24 13 10 10 19 15 19 12 24 16 13 15 25 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 11 11
134423 Srabian Armenia R1b1a2
12 25 14 11 11-14 11 12 12 14 13 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-16-18 10 11 18-23 14 15 20 18 34-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 9 13 22-23 17 10 12 12 15 8 13 23 20 13 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 02:49:16 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2011, 06:34:38 PM »

Did you notice the Figure 4 charts?  We have to be careful again when comparing charts between haplogroups where the charts have different scales.

R1b and J2 frequency are on different scales so R1b frequency looks lower in Anatolia and Transcaucasia than it is... it's just that R1b frequency is so dark (dense) in Western Europe.

The old story that Balaresque and Myres picked up on still applies Herrara's work.  The "opposing" charts for R1b which are high frequency in the west but low variance there to be opposed by high variance in the east.

R1b variance "hotspots" appear to be the Near East Mediterranean coast and south-central Anatolia.

J2 shows to be older than R1b.  Look at these coalescence ages for J2  using Ravid-Amir and Osset mutation rates:

7.8±1.5  Palestine
6.4±3.0  Crete
5.7±0.9  Greece


These are coalescence ages, not TMRCA ages so the actual MRCA should have existed before.  Kind of a nice Cardial Wares trail for J2, right?   Definitely not too early for the Cardial Wares.

R1b seems to have missed the first Cardial Wares boats out of town. Must have pushed north into Anatolia and Armenia instead. Some R1b may have been in the Caucasus for a while before elements of R1b reached Greece and Macedonia.  

That's not to say that R1b went all the way around the Black Sea from the Caucasus. Is there archaelogical evidence of a strong trade exchange network along the Black Sea coasts, stretching to both ends, while early farmers plowed and floated west into Europe.

6.6±2.0  Jordan
6.0±2.0  Turkey - West
5.9±1.7  Syria
5.6±1.0  Lebanon
5.6±1.4  Armenia - Ararat Valley
5.3±1.2  Turkey - Central
5.3±2.1  Armenia - Lake Van
5.0±1.4  Armenia - Gardman
4.9±1.5  Turkey - East
4.7±0.8  Armenia - Sasun
4.6±0.8  Caucasus
4.1±1.1  Iran
3.3±1.1  SE Europe - Macedonia
3.2±2.0  SE Europe - Greece


It'd be nice to have more info on Romania and just north/northeast.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 07:05:15 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2011, 06:33:51 AM »

Of course I haven’t read the paper of Herrera et al. not being for free. I have only the supplements and saw that, whereas R-L23 is diffused and with some variance, R-M269 was present only in 5 samples all linked and with a recent MRCA. If this were the situation of Armenia, we could exclude that there was the origin of R-M269. I did a research of that haplotype on YHRD and put above the results. I think to have been honest by putting also the haplotypes of Armenian origin present in the “ht35 project” and their range, which incorporates some European haplotypes too. I didn’t take conclusions but I offered them to the attention of everyone interested.
You speak of R1b and its variance. Which R1b? Which haplogroup, which subclade?

1)   I think it has been demonstrated ad abundantiam that variance so calculated has no meaning and less if we don’t discriminate subclades and haplotypes. Not taking in consideration my hypothesis about the mutations around the modal, the convergence to the modal as time passes, etc., made wrong all the efforts of the same Nordtvedt and Klyosov. The ancient DNA, the last of the G2a4 of Ötzi and of the other G2a found overall in Europe, has demonstrated that these calculations, for not a short time of a few centuries, are wrong for a factor at least of 2.5.
2)   We don’t know who were the ancestors of these Middle Easterner R1b. I have said many times in the past that all (or pretty all) those found in Turkey or nearby had an Armenian origin, and Armenians are an Indo-European people whose origin is in the Balkans, and probably before more Northward or North Westward, then we should have asked ourselves in which part of Europe they derived their haplogroup. But also of the ancient origin of the haplogroups present in Turkey we don’t know anything. It could be everywhere. Don’t forget that Asia Minor (beyond the Greek peopling at the time of the Byzantine Empire and before) has been many centuries part of the Roman Empire. During the first century B.C. Mithridate made kill 80,000 Italic merchants and only in the following war of the great Roman Imperator (not yet “Emperor” but the General of the Roman troops) Lucius Cornelius Silla, 30,000 Romans annihilated an army of 200,000 soldiers leaded by Greek στρατηγόι. After probably hundreds of thousand of Italic merchants came back to Asia Minor and this could have said for many peoples. Of this past we don’t know anything and only a patient analysis, and not an ideological one, will permit us to reconstruct this history.
3)   Now many are opening a North African route for R1b. This hypothesis was due above all to the odd calculations of Klyosov, which are of course wrong for many thousands of years. And now also Sam Vass, for religious prejudices, and the same Dienekes Pontikos, who prefers an African route rather than a Venetian one, are taking in consideration this hypothesis. I said in some forums and privately that the hypothesis Tutankhamon merited to be considered, only if this Egyptians were like the other peoples and published the true results (said amongst us, also the Tyroleans, like I was afraid, have had the same behaviour re. Ötzi). But about Tutankhamon and the 18th dynasty I said to take in consideration also the Sardinian mercenaries.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 06:37:36 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2011, 07:06:19 AM »

I hope to not do an unpleasant thing in publishing this letter of Argiedude. I haven’t yet replied to him because he says in his letter that he won’t look at this email for the next weeks, and I hope he begins again to write on this forums, like he did in the past, giving some important contributes, above all by his maps, and I remember that of R-L51, which demonstrated its highest frequency in Italy and that it dropped out beyond the Easterner borders. This was one of the strong point of my theory of the Italian Refugium.

“Sorry for not responding sooner. I haven't seen your post anywhere recently, I thought you would comment some of the new stuff that came out at Dienekes' blog. Of course, you could say the same for me, but I've been having an actual technical issue with posting on blogspot for the last 2 months, I hope to fix it soon.

Are you aware of the latest developments in R1b? It turns out that pretty much all the L23+ L11- of the eastern half of Anatolia belongs to either L277 or the newly found mutation L584. L584 is also found in most Ashkenazi Jewish L23+ L11- samples, but so far it has only been found in 1 out of 6 non-Jewish L23+ L11- samples from Europe. These 2 SNPs are negative in L11+, which means L277 and L584 are side branches and not an ancestral pool of R1b from which L11+ arose. This pretty much destroys all diversity arguments about the origin of R1b1b2, because in Anatolia they were measuring the diversity of 2 side branches that aren't ancestral to L11+, so they might as well have been measuring the diversity of J1 or G for all that matters. Thus, we can forget about diversity and concentrate exclusively on SNP diversity, and in this regard it looks like the Balkans, and even Italy, outweigh the diversity of Anatolia. Remember that southeast Europe, apart from having the 2 lineages present in Anatolia (L277 and L584), also has the Albanian cluster (385=11/11), an apparently related Balkan cluster (392=11), and of course, the cluster that you discovered in Italy, with the weird YCAII values (17/23, right?), and which makes up half of Italian L23*. Oh, and of course, the Romitti L150+ sample, which is now amply confirmed and has been found yet again, in an Englishman, not in Turkey or Caucasus. And of course, like I said, most of the Balkan L23+ L11- don't belong to either L277 or L584 or the Albanian cluster or any other group I mentioned, so there are tons of lineages still hiding in there!

Sincerely,
argiedude

PS: I may not reply in a week or two, because I only check this email every now and then”.

Of course I say to Argiedude that I have followed these arguments, that I have written a lot about these, here, on Dienekes’blog, on Maju’s blog, and at last only here. I have written also that the fact of the SNPs L277 and L584 (I remember that it was discovered because I wrote to my Iranian friend Chitsaz, who had done 23andme, to send his data to “Adriano’s spreadsheet” and he did that), if we don’t calculate when they were born, don’t exclude their owners to be at the origin of the subclades, if they are recent, like my S136, which is from 1200 to 500 years old, don’t exclude my line to be at the origin of the R-L150 subclades.
And of course “my” Italian” haplotype with YCAII=17-23 is an R-M269 and not an R-L23. I have said that, hypothesizing that the ancestor line had YCAII=18-23 and not 19-23 like thought by everyone, this Italian line is the most ancient and for me another point of my theories.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

vineviz
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191


« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2011, 01:25:44 PM »

This pretty much destroys all diversity arguments about the origin of R1b1b2, because in Anatolia they were measuring the diversity of 2 side branches that aren't ancestral to L11+, so they might as well have been measuring the diversity of J1 or G for all that matters. Thus, we can forget about diversity and concentrate exclusively on SNP diversity . . .

I hate to reply to a comment from someone who is not here, but I must note that this observation is not correct.  Some theories of Italian supremacy depend on this kind of misanalysis, but reasonable people should steer clear of this kind of convoluted logic.

Oh, and of course, the Romitti L150+ sample, which is now amply confirmed and has been found yet again, in an Englishman, not in Turkey or Caucasus.

Again, this is factually incorrect.  L150 is an unreliable marker, since it recombined with a homologous region of the X chromosome.  It's placement on the ISOGG and FTDNA trees is incorrect.
Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2011, 02:43:18 PM »

In Italian we say: “Chi non muore si rivede”, then: “Welcome!”. Unfortunately you have replied to the words of Argiedude and not mine. The first argument isn’t futile if it is the centre of the Busby’s et al. paper. We of course have thought and written this many years ago like of other arguments that scholars (if we are hobbyists) are discovering now. I’d appreciate that you demolish these arguments and hope you haven’t come back from your exile to make me ban also from this forum. My name (Gioiello Tognoni) now is known and also my theories.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 02:45:06 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

vineviz
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191


« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2011, 02:51:15 PM »

The first argument isn’t futile if it is the centre of the Busby’s et al. paper.

The Busby paper is a bit of a confused mess:  it really isn't clear WHAT their central point is.
Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2011, 04:14:38 PM »

The argument of the Busby’s paper ( but beyond Busby there is one of the youngest and most ingenious scholar: Cristian Capelli) is that Eastern haplotypes of hg. R1b1a2…. haven’t more variance than the Western ones, what I have said by the “mutations around the modal” and the “convergence to the modal as time passes”, the fact that the most part of the haplotyopes die and a few survive, and only the mutations for the tangent demonstrate the ancientness of a haplotype. This has been demonstrated by the ancient DNA, when some haplotypes found in Europe of 7000YBP were thought by the various Nordtvedt, Klyosov etc. 3000 years old. The explications given by Klyosov have been defined by me an “escamotage”.
But what is important for individuating the place of origin of a haplogroup is the path that a region holds, and about R1b1a2 Italy has this path, with some important knots: R1b1* (beyond Mangino you should take off from the “ht35 project”, and now I have individuated another Italian: DeMao), the Sardinian R-M18, the R1b1a2/M269 with YCAII=17-23, the R-L51 overwhelming in Italy, the massive presence of R-U152* in the Tuscans of the 1000 Genomes Project. And not only R1b1a2, but the G2a born in Italy: G2a4, G2a5, the Tuscan G-L497*. Also many mitochondrions have their origin in Italy: R0a2, HV4, HV1a’b’c and many others.
Isn’t enough? Who have spoken of Italian supremacy? You. I have done only scientific analyses based upon data and proofs.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 06:48:21 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2011, 12:58:44 AM »

I am seeing that DeMao has been put amongst the cluster A1b of the R1b1 Project.

Cluster A1a is Jewish, has a recent ancestor, and presupposes only an individual, of probably Spanish extraction: YCAII= 18-23

Cluster A1b is Western European, presupposes many individuals. The Italian DeMeo belongs to an Italian cluster with YCAII=18-22 (I have given in the past other Italians, like Toniolo and an anonymous in a paper about the Marche). If you put here also Mangino, who has YCAII= 18-23, Italy has the highest variance.

Cluster A1c (YCAII=22-23), cluster A2 (YCAII=22-23 or 23-23), cluster B1 (M335-) (YCAII=21-23) aren’t the ancestor of the subclades.

The brother cluster of A1b, cluster B2 (M335+) (YCAII=18-23) was born in Europe, Central but also Italy like I have demonstrated in a thread in this blog.

For all this Italy is the Refugium of R1b1a2 and subclades like I have written many times in the past with wide demonstrations.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2011, 10:27:46 AM »

Did you notice the Figure 4 charts?  We have to be careful again when comparing charts between haplogroups where the charts have different scales.

R1b and J2 frequency are on different scales so R1b frequency looks lower in Anatolia and Transcaucasia than it is... it's just that R1b frequency is so dark (dense) in Western Europe.

The old story that Balaresque and Myres picked up on still applies Herrara's work.  The "opposing" charts for R1b which are high frequency in the west but low variance there to be opposed by high variance in the east.

R1b variance "hotspots" appear to be the Near East Mediterranean coast and south-central Anatolia.

J2 shows to be older than R1b.  Look at these coalescence ages for J2  using Ravid-Amir and Osset mutation rates:

7.8±1.5  Palestine
6.4±3.0  Crete
5.7±0.9  Greece


These are coalescence ages, not TMRCA ages so the actual MRCA should have existed before.  Kind of a nice Cardial Wares trail for J2, right?   Definitely not too early for the Cardial Wares.

R1b seems to have missed the first Cardial Wares boats out of town. Must have pushed north into Anatolia and Armenia instead. Some R1b may have been in the Caucasus for a while before elements of R1b reached Greece and Macedonia.  

That's not to say that R1b went all the way around the Black Sea from the Caucasus. Is there archaelogical evidence of a strong trade exchange network along the Black Sea coasts, stretching to both ends, while early farmers plowed and floated west into Europe.

6.6±2.0  Jordan
6.0±2.0  Turkey - West
5.9±1.7  Syria
5.6±1.0  Lebanon
5.6±1.4  Armenia - Ararat Valley
5.3±1.2  Turkey - Central
5.3±2.1  Armenia - Lake Van
5.0±1.4  Armenia - Gardman
4.9±1.5  Turkey - East
4.7±0.8  Armenia - Sasun
4.6±0.8  Caucasus
4.1±1.1  Iran
3.3±1.1  SE Europe - Macedonia
3.2±2.0  SE Europe - Greece


It'd be nice to have more info on Romania and just north/northeast.

Are those figs for all R1b?  So you see this as evidence for the origin of M269 in the north-east Med. coast area?  I suppose being intraclade there is room for doubt but the possibility it was on the east Med early is interesting.  I wonder if its more of a case that these figures are due to expansion and the R1b folks who wandered into the fertile crescent area would have had a better chance of expanding because they entered a core ancient farming area.   It is interesting regardless that R1b seems to have been around the farming area but apparently not at the earliest period.  If the dates do reflect expansion it does suggest that R1b was not inside the fertile crescent at the dates and perhaps peripheral.  You would makes some sense of most of those dates by a general arrival sometime c. 4500-3500BC in the fertile crescent area. which in local terminology is probably the Bronze Age.  Question is where were they before this entry into areas where they could expand?  Somewhere outside the fertile crescent then apparently entering it on the east Med. coast area.  I am well outside my knowledge comfort zone now! 

If these expansion dates are real it raises two major questions

1. Where was R1b prior to this?  I am pretty stumped by that. 

2. Where did it enter Europe from? I suppose by definition that has to be from an L23xL51 area that can access Europe and did so around 3000-2000BC. Could be anywhere with access to the Med. or Black Sea coasts and of course by land through Anatolia.   
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 11:46:06 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2011, 01:07:47 PM »

For anyone interested I was surprised at how detailed this Wiki page was in relation to Neolithic and Bronze Age Europe.  It seems pretty sound although there are a couple of date errors i.e Corded Ware is 500 years older than stated in origin and it does suggest west-central Europe as the origin of beakers without stating why.  Despite that its a very good pen portrait of the complexity of things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Europe

It definitely seems to be out of date with its beaker dates but I would tend to agree with its  statement

The rest of the period is the story of a mysterious phenomenon: the Beaker people. This group seems to be of mercantile character and to like being buried according to a very specific, almost invariable, ritual. Nevertheless, out of their original area of western Central Europe, they appear only inside local cultures, so they never invaded and assimilated but rather went to live among those peoples, keeping their way of life. This is why they are believed to be merchants.[/i

I definitely think the evidence suggests in many places the beaker people were welcomed. 
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 01:17:43 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2011, 08:22:30 AM »

Armenia with its early forms of R1b might actually help narrow down the R1b mystery because it only has three cultural phases between the start of the Neolithic and the Early Bronze Age

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Armenia

As you can see the first one is likely a slightly late spread of farming from the Fertile Cresent (north Levant and northern Iraq) to the south c. 6000BC, possibly from the Halaf and Hassuna cultures.  This was apparently due to a dry phase making the non-irrigation agriculture of northern Mesopotamia and Syria difficult.  This seems a little early and perhaps its more likely to relate to some of the other major haplotypes in the area like J2. However the direction resembles Mike's calculations for R1b:

6.6±2.0  Jordan
6.0±2.0  Turkey - West
5.9±1.7  Syria
5.6±1.0  Lebanon
5.6±1.4  Armenia - Ararat Valley

The second is the Kura-Araxes culture of the local copper age c. 4000BC.    Its  seen as of local origin but has been linked to the Maekop culture near the steppes and had wide trade links including Anatolia and Mesopotamia.  

The third is a vaguely Kurgan type Bronze Age culture c. 2200BC.  It seems a little late to be the source of R1b and Armenian is a satem language (a later from than Centum).  On the other hand there is not a lot of R1a in the area.  

Armenia seems relatively simple in terms of archaeological sequence in the likely period of the arrival of R1b and if we could figure out this area then we might help understand the options for R1b.

Does anyone have a breakdown of all the yDNA in Armenia?

.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 08:42:53 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2011, 11:03:41 AM »

The Armenia project is very interesting.  This is the table of the yDNA

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

The map is interesting too.

Does anyone see a pattern in the clade distribution.  There is a lot of R1b and J and a fair bit of G and E and a little R1a and I as well as haplogroups like T that I know nothing about.   One this very interesting is the R1b is almost all L23xL51 or upstream.  Very much part of the old R1b zone.  There is also a fair bit of R-M73 (think that is the code of M269's brother clade).  Its a fascinating place Armenia.  I dont know the details but some J and E clades have been shown to be early Neolithic. So there might be a temptation to link those clades with the first farming culture in the area.  However there simply must be a homeland for early R1b ancestral to both M269 and M73 where it was located in the pre-farming era and I definitely get the feeling Armenia was not too far away from it.  However as per my last post there seems to be an early history of major displacement and mobile groups in the middle east so its complicated.  How IE languages fit into all this is complex. Armenian is satem but I understand the substrate/borrowings called Euphratic that are found in Sumerian in south Mesopotamia seem to be very early centum of a pre-anatolian type.  The south Mesopotamian pre-Uruk Ubaid culture is thought to have come from further north in Mespotamia and the north Levant so perhaps the IE element was from somewhere to the north.  There seems to be a hint to me that very early pre-Anatolian IE was present somewhere in the area between Turkey/north Levant and the south Caspian c. 6000BC.   An arid period c. 6000BC seems to coincide with a movement from the Levant/central Mesopotamia to both the north and south.  All guessology though!!
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 11:05:59 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Humanist
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 121


« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2011, 11:30:36 AM »

Does anyone have a breakdown of all the yDNA in Armenia?
   N=376 (including 25 known paternal cousins)
   
R1b1a2a & R1b1a2a1 L49+ L23+ L150+ L51- L11-   19.7%
J1* L136- DYS388=12, 13 or 14   7.4%
J1c3d* P58+ L147.1+ L222-   4.0%
I2c* P215+ L596+ L597+ P37.2- P217- L416-   3.7%
J2a4b1* M92+   3.7%
J2a4* Cluster C: L26+ L27+   2.9%
T1a1b* M70+ L162+ P77+   2.9%
E1b1b1c1a* M34+ M84+ (Miscellaneous)   2.4%
G2a3a* M406+ L14-   2.4%
R1b1a2a1c L49+ L23+ L150+ L584+   2.4%
G2a* P15+ P16- M286- L30-   1.9%
G1a M285+ P20+   1.6%
J2a4b* M67+ unclustered   1.6%
J2a4d* Cluster A: M319+   1.6%
L1b* M317+ L655+ L656-   1.6%
T1a1* M70+ L162+ L206+ L208+ M320- P77-   1.6%
G2a3a1* M406+ L14+ L90+   1.3%
R1b1a2* M269+ L49- L23-   1.3%
E1b1b1a1a* V12+   1.1%
E1b1b1a1b* V13+   1.1%
E1b1b1c1a* M34+ M84+ (Cluster D)   1.1%
G2a3a2* M406+ L14+ L645+   1.1%
G2a3b1a* L141+ P303+ L140+ U1-   1.1%
G2a3b1a1* L141+ P303+ L140+ U1+ L13-   1.1%
J2a4h2 L24+ L25+ DYS445=10   1.1%
J2a4h2 L24+ L25+ DYS445=6   1.1%
R1b1* P25+ V88- P297- M335-   1.1%
R2a M124+   1.1%
E1b1b1a1c* V22+ (Cluster A)   0.8%
I2a2a3* P78+   0.8%
J1* L136- DYS388=15 Cluster A   0.8%
J1* L136- DYS388=16 (pending SNP tests)   0.8%
J2a3* P279+ with DYS447 mini-deletion   0.8%
J2b1* M205+   0.8%
Q1b1a* L275+ M378+ L245+ L272- L315-   0.8%
R1a1a1i M17+ M198+ Z280+   0.8%
R2a1 L295+   0.8%
T1b* M70+ L131+   0.8%
A3b2* M13+ M171- M118-   0.5%
E1b1b1a1c* V22+ (Miscellaneous)   0.5%
E1b1b1c1* M34+ M84- (Cluster D2)   0.5%
F3* M89+ P96+ M282+   0.5%
G2a* P15+ Double DYS19 P16- M286- L30?   0.5%
G2a1a* P15+ P16+ P18+ DYS505=9   0.5%
G2a3b2 L177+   0.5%
G2c M377+   0.5%
I2a2a M223+ branch unknown   0.5%
J2a unclassifiable   0.5%
J2a* M410+ Cluster A1: DYS 447 deletion   0.5%
J2a4b* M67+ Cluster B   0.5%
J2a4b* M67+ Cluster F   0.5%
J2a4b3* L210+   0.5%
R1a1a1h1 Z93+ L342.2+ (L657 not tested)   0.5%
E1b1b1c* M123+ M34-   0.3%
E1b1b1c1a* M34+ M84+ (Cluster A)   0.3%
G unclassifiable   0.3%
G2* P15- M287- M377-   0.3%
G2a3b1* L141+ P303+ L140-   0.3%
G2a3b1a1a* L141+ P303+ L140+ U1+ L13+   0.3%
G2a4 L91+   0.3%
I2a1b1* M423+ L69.2+ P41.2-   0.3%
J1* L136- DYS388=15 Cluster B   0.3%
J1c3d2* P58+ L147.1+ L222+   0.3%
J2a* M410+ Cluster 1d (Caucasus)   0.3%
J2a4 unclassifiable   0.3%
J2a4* Cluster A1: L26+ L27+   0.3%
J2a4* Cluster A3: L26+ L27+   0.3%
J2a4* Cluster D: L26+ L27+   0.3%
J2a4* Singleton 5   0.3%
J2a4a* M47+   0.3%
J2a4b* M67+ Cluster I   0.3%
J2a4h - branch unknown   0.3%
J2a4h2* L24+ L25+ negative for all subgroups   0.3%
J2a4h2a L24+ L25+ L70+   0.3%
J2a4h2f L24+ L25+ L192.2+ L271-   0.3%
J2b* M12+ M205- M241-   0.3%
J2b2f* M241+ L283+   0.3%
L1b1a* M317+ L655+ L656+ M349+   0.3%
Q1a2 M25+   0.3%
Q1a3 M346+   0.3%
R1a1a M17+ M198+ Z93- (Z280 not yet tested)   0.3%
R1a1a M17+ M198+ Z93- Z280-   0.3%
R1a1a1h Z93+ (L342.2 not yet tested)   0.3%
R1a1a1h Z93+ L342.2-   0.3%
R1a1a1h1 Z93+ L342.2+ L657-   0.3%
R1b1a2a1a1* L11+ U106- P312-   0.3%
R2a2 L263+   0.3%
T*: K (M9+) LT (L298+) T* (M184+ L455+ L445+ L206- M193- M70-)   0.3%

A significant number of the L23+ men may be L584+, and to a lesser extent, "L277."
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 11:31:35 AM by Humanist » Logged

Humanist
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 121


« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2011, 11:34:41 AM »

Just a note.  When we speak of "Armenia," I think it is helpful to keep in mind this does not necessarily correspond with the modern political borders of the Armenian state.  Think more Lake Van, Ararat...Armenian Highland. 
Logged

MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2011, 11:48:25 AM »

Here are estimates for L51* and L584*, both parallel descendants of L23.  L584 is SW Asian(including Armenia and Iran) and L51 is European.  These were run through Generations6.  I don't know what to make of the incredibly old nested interclade age. The 5.8 TMRCA is right in line with the Maikop and Kura-Araxes periods.

Interclade TMRCA Age____________5.8 __  (7.4-4.2)               
Interclade Nested Age___________19.8 __  (20.3-19.3)               
L584 TMRCA Age_______________3.4 __  (3.9-3.0)               
L584 Coalescence Age_________2.7 __  (3.1-2.3)               
L51 TMRCA Age_______________4.9 __  (5.3-4.4)               
L51 Coalescence Age_________4.0 __  (4.4-3.5)               
Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

Humanist
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 121


« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2011, 12:26:19 PM »

Here are estimates for L51* and L584*, both parallel descendants of L23.  L584 is SW Asian(including Armenia and Iran) and L51 is European.  These were run through Generations6.  I don't know what to make of the incredibly old nested interclade age. The 5.8 TMRCA is right in line with the Maikop and Kura-Araxes periods.

Interclade TMRCA Age____________5.8 __  (7.4-4.2)               
Interclade Nested Age___________19.8 __  (20.3-19.3)               
L584 TMRCA Age_______________3.4 __  (3.9-3.0)               
L584 Coalescence Age_________2.7 __  (3.1-2.3)      
         
L51 TMRCA Age_______________4.9 __  (5.3-4.4)               
L51 Coalescence Age_________4.0 __  (4.4-3.5)

http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2011-12-01.pdf

Quote
Summary of Cultures and Languages in the Transcaucasus:
 
 6000 – 4000 BCE: Neolithic Shulaveri-Shomu  culture, probably related to Fertile
Crescent farmers. Language(s) unknown. 
   
 4000 – 2500 BCE: Maykop Culture in North Caucasus.  Language(s) unknown; possibly
included an intrusive Indo-European language along with indigenous language(s).
   
 3700 – 2000 BCE: Kura-Araxes Culture. Language(s) unknown; possibly Hurrian.
 
2250 or earlier – 1300 BCE: Hurrian expansions into the Fertile Crescent.
     
 1300 – 1100 BCE: Nairi confederation. Possibly Hurrian speaking.
       
 860 – 590 BCE: Kingdom of Urartu. Urartian (Hurro-Urartian) speaking. 
   
 700 – 585 BCE: Phrygian kingdoms in Anatolia. Indo-European speaking.
 331 BCE – 428 CE: Kingdom of Armenia. Armenian (Indo-European) speaking.

I do not want to come off as one pushing a pet theory, but, the estimates for L584 are in line, roughly, with estimates of other shared Y-DNA lineages between Assyrians and Armenians (e.g. J1*).  What we know about history does nothing but suggest the same possibility. 

Quote
Northern Mesopotamia was dominated by Hurrian kingdom known as the Mitanni Kingdom or Hanigalbat from about 1500 to 1330 BC. The first records referring to Hurrians date from the late 3rd millennium BC when they were living in the Khabur River valley, the area east of Tigris River. The Hurrians became politically dominated by Mitanni, an Indo-Iranian (Aryan) warrior nobility probably during the 17th century BC, while Mitanni Kingdom encompassing the area from the Zagros Mountains to the Khabur River valley emerged about 1500 BC. Little is known about history of Mitanni Kingdom as well as about its political organization, administration, art and culture. Mitanni Kingdom reached its height under Shaushtatar (c. 1420 BC) when it encompassed the territory from the Mediterranean Sea to the Zagros Mountains, including northern Syria. It capital was the city of Washshukanni which has not been located yet. Despite paucity of historical records of Mitanni Kingdom it seems it has been one of the leading powers in the Middle East until it became involved in struggles with Hittites who finally destroyed the Mitanni Kingdom about 1330 BC. Territory of Mitanni Kingdom subsequently fell to Hittites and partly to Assyria.

The destruction of the Mitanni Kingdom by the Hittites about 1330 BC was crucial for the future rise of Assyria which emerged as independent kingdom under Ashur-uballit I (c. 1354-1318 BC). The land of Assur was named Assyria for the first time...
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 12:27:45 PM by Humanist » Logged

MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2011, 12:53:57 PM »

The estimates also accommodate the R1b/5000 BC dairy farmer theory with the confidence interval at 7.4 on the interclade.  I would guess that the L23's (or whatever snps yet to be found) inhabited a large arc from Iran to Romania as evident by these two geographically distinct subclades.  However, the center of the interclade dates at 5.8 keeps the Maikop/steppe possibility open.

L584 looks like a good possibility for later Hittite, Hurrian, and maybe Assyrian connections.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 01:00:00 PM by MHammers » Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2011, 01:27:39 PM »

Any estimate for L50* which seems to be the biggest element among the Armenians. Either an L50 'all' date or some sort of interclade between L50* and L584.  I think that might be interesting.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 01:29:52 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2011, 04:11:19 PM »

Any estimate for L50* which seems to be the biggest element among the Armenians. Either an L50 'all' date or some sort of interclade between L50* and L584.  I think that might be interesting.
What are you saying? L50 (rs13303711) is so rare and more rare my S136, a 9bp deletion in the region of L50.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 04:11:43 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2011, 04:20:54 PM »

The incredible fragmentation of Armenian Y (see Humanist’s data) says that Armenia is at the origin of nothing, only a place of introgression from everywhere.

R1b1* has YCAII=23-23 or 21-23 and of course isn’t at the origin of the subclades. Any path of the R1b haplogroup, only introgression from elsewhere, with a huge presence of R-L23 (and eventually the eastern L277 or L584). Only 1 R-L11, come from elsewhere. No R-L51 and less the European subclades. I think that Armenia (or Armenians) received R-L23 from elsewhere, I think from Italy or Central/Balkan Europe, probably after the Younger Dryas.

Your age should be multiplied at least for 2.5.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 04:46:46 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2011, 04:50:40 PM »

The incredible fragmentation of Armenian Y (see Humanist’s data) says that Armenia is at the origin of nothing, only a place of introgression from everywhere.

R1b1* has YCAII=23-23 or 22-23 and of course isn’t at the origin of the subclades. Any path of the R1b haplogroup, only introgression from elsewhere, with a huge presence of R-L23 (and eventually the eastern L277 or L584). Only 1 R-L11, come from elsewhere. No R-L51 and less the European subclades. I think that Armenia (or Armenians) received R-L23 from elsewhere, I think from Italy or Central/Balkan Europe, probably after the Younger Dryas.

Your age should be multiplied at least for 2.5.


I dont know if Armenia is the origin but it is an interesting place where L23xL5 predominates.  Armenia seems to have more L23xL51 than most places I am aware of.  It has extremely little L51 or L11.  European L23 is much younger in variance that L23 in SW Asia.  The same area is a hotspot of M73 too.  Everything upstream of L23 and M73 seems incredibly rare and scattered to a degree that point of origin looks very hard to determine.  I dont know where L23 originated but Mike's variance calculations suggest it isnt Europe.  He also did a calculation for what I assume was M269 'all' and it got the highest variance in the Levant/Turkey area although because these are interclade I dont feel that too much can be read into it.  It does suggest that its first chance at expansion (which I wonder if it was the first time farming was practiced by R1b peoples) was in the Levant/Turkey area.  Its lack of earlier expansion to me suggests it may have been in a non-farming area prior to this and only gained farming knowledge quite late in the Neolithic compared to other areas where J, E and G clades were located.  Something like that would explain its non-appearance in European Neolithic samples.  I really dont know where that was as the subject of groups around the margins of farming in the Neolithic south of the Black and Caspian Seas is fairly obscure.  I also wouldnt rule out the steppes either simply because I dont think its impossible that R1a's expansion could have radically altered the yDNA situation there.  L23 outside Europe seems to be older than the main period of expansion of R1a in Russia so you never know.      
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 05:09:18 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2011, 05:19:46 PM »

It isn’t said that R-M73 is more varied in Asia than in Europe. I have written a thread here: go and read:
   
Also R1b1b1 from the Italian Refugium?

Central Europe (but also Italy) has also R-M335, the sister clade of R-M269. No trace in Armenia or Asia after the first sample found by Cinnioglu in Turkey, clearly of European origin.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 05:31:49 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2011, 06:31:37 PM »

It isn’t said that R-M73 is more varied in Asia than in Europe.


This is incorrect. Vince V. said himself that R-M73 is oldest in SW Asia. The difference between R-M73 and R-M269 is that the former went to Central and South Asia (for the most part, anyway).
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 06:34:14 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2011, 02:46:43 AM »

This is incorrect. Vince V. said himself that ...
Which authority is Vinvcent V.? How many of his theories has been so far verified? I was said he abondoned (temporarely it seems) the forums and the administrations at FTDNA because he didn't agree with them when they put L150 in the draft tree, and he has remarked this also a few posts above.
Which authority? Perhaps he is an expert of plants, having inhabited them for so long.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.146 seconds with 17 queries.