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Author Topic: TMRCA and Coalescence Age estimates for R-M269 and its subclades  (Read 13361 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2011, 01:11:25 PM »

.... The problem with that is U106 is not all that common in France, so I wouldn't look at France as a source for it elsewhere. I am not saying it is rare in France either, but France is not a U106 hotspot...
I caution about using frequency hotspots. I think variance is more important, but unfortunately it isn't typically available in a representative fashion to the degree that we want it.

I apologize if this was already posted but I see that Moffat and Wilson have an opinion on U106 (S21) and a possible early entry into Britain.
"The Scots: A Genetic Journey" by Moffat and Wilson...
Quote from: Moffat and Wilson
But in Scotland at least the notion of a more ancient east/west divide is much more robust because it is observed clearly in the areas where there was little or no settlement of Anglo-Saxon. In Moray and Aberdeenshire, the incidence of S21 is very high in the male population and that of S145 rather low. No doubt the Anglo-Saxons brought S21 and other markers across the North Sea once more, strengthening the gradient of genetic types across England, but they were present in England long before.

Unfortunately, as is typical of their style. they didn't provide the data for their assertion, just the general statements.  We have to keep in mind they wrote a book, not a scientific paper.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 01:13:29 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2011, 08:53:46 PM »

What is the "Old Norway Project"?

What is weird about some of the Scandinavian results, at least relative to Busby et al, is that they seem anomalous given the pattern to the immediate south, starting with the North Sea coast of Germany and the Netherlands and continuing through the North German Plain.

I think that may be part of the reason some folks look at the sudden increase in L21 in Norway and think, "Aha! Must be thralls from the Isles!"

Given the relative predominance of U106 in North Germany and the Netherlands, one would expect the pattern to continue smoothly into Scandinavia. Instead, there is a kind of P312 gap in lowland Germany and the Netherlands, especially when it comes to L21, before P312 and some of its subclades pick up again in Scandinavia, or at least in some parts of Scandinavia.

That gap is just odd. It seems to me to be best explained by the seaborne arrival of the P312 clades found in Scandinavia, whether that seaborne arrival was early (i.e., prehistoric, like the Beaker Folk) or relatively late (i.e., Viking Age thralls, Scottish merchants, Hanseatic sailors, etc.).

No such gap exists for U106 from the North German Plain on through Scandinavia, which is one reason why its association with Germanic-speakers seems more straightforward than that of P312 and its clades.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 08:57:15 PM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2011, 10:41:31 PM »

What is the "Old Norway Project"?

That gap is just odd. It seems to me to be best explained by the seaborne arrival of the P312 clades found in Scandinavia, whether that seaborne arrival was early (i.e., prehistoric, like the Beaker Folk) or relatively late (i.e., Viking Age thralls, Scottish merchants, Hanseatic sailors, etc.).


For the Old Norway Project, see the topic about it started by Authun on this forum awhile back (it's listed on page 2 of this forum). He provides a link to it there. Apparently the Ydna pie charts, which were posted by Jean M. on another forum, are on page 38. They are well worth looking at. If I could work out how to post them here, I would do it.

I don't believe the large amount of P312* in Norway coastal can be due to events from the Viking Age or later, because the areas in Britain where P312* is most common are not strongly connected with these later migrations. Also L238 is a subset of P312 which is virtually limited to Scandinavia, and it cannot be reasonably be argued that iut originated in Britain.

Certainly some P312 appear to have arrived by sea, but the areas in the Swedish samples where P312 subclades are most populous are inland. Of course they may have originally arrived by sea at an early date (ie Beakers) and later drifted inland.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 10:42:11 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: November 27, 2011, 10:48:21 PM »

.... The problem with that is U106 is not all that common in France, so I wouldn't look at France as a source for it elsewhere. I am not saying it is rare in France either, but France is not a U106 hotspot...
I caution about using frequency hotspots. I think variance is more important, but unfortunately it isn't typically available in a representative fashion to the degree that we want it.

I apologize if this was already posted but I see that Moffat and Wilson have an opinion on U106 (S21) and a possible early entry into Britain.
"The Scots: A Genetic Journey" by Moffat and Wilson...
Quote from: Moffat and Wilson
But in Scotland at least the notion of a more ancient east/west divide is much more robust because it is observed clearly in the areas where there was little or no settlement of Anglo-Saxon. In Moray and Aberdeenshire, the incidence of S21 is very high in the male population and that of S145 rather low. No doubt the Anglo-Saxons brought S21 and other markers across the North Sea once more, strengthening the gradient of genetic types across England, but they were present in England long before.

Unfortunately, as is typical of their style. they didn't provide the data for their assertion, just the general statements.  We have to keep in mind they wrote a book, not a scientific paper.

I've mentioned this statement by Wilson and Moffat before in support of my argument that some U106 arrived in eastern Britain before the Anglo-Saxons. A number of people rushed forward to explain the unaccounted for presence of U106 in those areas as due to Flemish immigrants or Norman barons.

I don't know why people people assume, in the absence of any supporting evidence, that the Normans were nearly all U106. Of course it is reasonable that U106 was present amongst the Normans, but I would be astounded if it was above 20% or so. It would take a lot of Norman barons to outnumber the local L21.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 10:51:04 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2011, 11:05:14 PM »

What is the "Old Norway Project"?
This link to the preliminary presentation is in Athun's thread.
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/-sczsteve/Gothenburg_13Oct2011.pdf
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« Reply #55 on: November 28, 2011, 01:12:57 AM »

I think that may be part of the reason some folks look at the sudden increase in L21 in Norway and think, "Aha! Must be thralls from the Isles!"
I think it is important to note the low amount of M222. To me this indicates the amount of late immigration of L21 from the Scotland/Ireland was not as significant as some earlier immigrations.

....Instead, there is a kind of P312 gap in lowland Germany and the Netherlands, especially when it comes to L21, before P312 and some of its subclades pick up again in Scandinavia, or at least in some parts of Scandinavia.
That gap is just odd. It seems to me to be best explained by the seaborne arrival of the P312 clades found in Scandinavia,...
.
Yes. You probably noticed L21 was high Skaraborg county too.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 01:13:52 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: November 28, 2011, 05:32:42 AM »

"Skaraborg county"

It is linked to the marvelous Scarborough of "Scarborough fair"?
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« Reply #57 on: November 28, 2011, 04:26:04 PM »


Given the relative predominance of U106 in North Germany and the Netherlands, one would expect the pattern to continue smoothly into Scandinavia. No such gap exists for U106 from the North German Plain on through Scandinavia, which is one reason why its association with Germanic-speakers seems more straightforward than that of P312 and its clades.

I have just had a look at R1b subclades in the Benelux Project. They were posted on another forum. Here are the results, based only on those members who have had deep clade testing. The results are in percentages (of the total male population), which in some cases I have rounded off.

Belgium/Luxembourg
L11     0
U106  11.7
U198  0
L48   7.8
P312  7.8
SRY2627  7.8
U152  23.4
L21   0

Netherlands
L11   3
U106  21.2
U198  3
L48   6
P312  15
SRY2627  0
U152  3
L21   6

Some explanatory notes: U106 includes those who have tested L48- as well as those who haven't tested for L48. It is a small sample, so I wouldn't take this to the bank. Nevertherless, I don't see how one can reconclie this data with a clean break between U106 and P312. While U106 and subclades are stronger than P312 in the Netherlands, the difference (30% v. 24%) is hardly overwhelming.

While U152 and SRY2627 are much more common in Belgium and Luxembourg than in Netherlands, P312 (presumably XL21,U152, SRY2627) and L21 are much more common in the Netherlands.

Nor can I see any reason why the Netherlands pattern should continue into Scandinavia. I think the contrasts that appear to exist reflect some complex settlement patterns most likely dating from the Bronze Age.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 09:05:13 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #58 on: November 28, 2011, 06:03:27 PM »


Given the relative predominance of U106 in North Germany and the Netherlands, one would expect the pattern to continue smoothly into Scandinavia. No such gap exists for U106 from the North German Plain on through Scandinavia, which is one reason why its association with Germanic-speakers seems more straightforward than that of P312 and its clades.

I have just had a look at R1b subclades in the Benelux Project. They were posted on another forum. Here are the results, based only on those members who have had deep clade testing. The results are in percentages, which in some cases I have rounded off.

Belgium/Luxembourg
L11     0
U106  11.7
U198  0
L48   7.8
P312  7.8
SRY2627  7.8
U152  23.4
L21   0

Netherlands
L11   3
U106  21.2
U198  3
L48   6
P312  15
SRY2627  0
U152  3
L21   6

Some explanatory notes: U106 includes those who have tested L48- as well as those who haven't tested for L48. It is a small sample, so I wouldn't take this to the bank. Nevertherless, I don't see how one can reconclie this data with a clean break between U106 and P312. While U106 and subclades are stronger than P312 in the Netherlands, the difference (30% v. 24%) is hardly overwhelming.

While U152 and SRY2627 are much more common in Belgium and Luxembourg than in Netherlands, P312 (presumably XL21,U152, SRY2627) and L21 are much more common in the Netherlands.

Nor can I see any reason why the Netherlands pattern should continue into Scandinavia. I think the contrass that appear to exist reflect some complex settlement patterns most likely dating from the Bronze Age.


That is interesting as the L21 project map also seemed to show a gap in L21 in Belgium but some in Holland (mainly away from northern Holland). 
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« Reply #59 on: November 28, 2011, 07:29:44 PM »

I have a larger number of haplotypes than the specific geographic or haplogroup DNA projects have, because I've look through over 30 projects for deep clade tested R-M269 people.  I also pull Ysearch for the corresponding FTDNA kit # to find a better MDKA origin information if available.

Here are the counts for Benelux. 57 from U106 and 49 from P312.


U152     21
P312*    14 (inc. DF19)
L21      8 (inc. DF21, L513)
Z196     6 (inc. SRY2627)

U106*    30
L48      19
U198     4
Z18      4

L23xL51  2
L51*     1


This is still biased by testing company consumer patterns, although I don't think that would change the ratio of one haplogroup to the other from the same geography.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 07:47:38 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: November 28, 2011, 08:37:55 PM »

I have a larger number of haplotypes than the specific geographic or haplogroup DNA projects have, because I've look through over 30 projects for deep clade tested R-M269 people.  I also pull Ysearch for the corresponding FTDNA kit # to find a better MDKA origin information if available.

Here are the counts for Benelux. 57 from U106 and 49 from P312.


U152     21
P312*    14 (inc. DF19)
L21      8 (inc. DF21, L513)
Z196     6 (inc. SRY2627)

U106*    30
L48      19
U198     4
Z18      4

L23xL51  2
L51*     1


This is still biased by testing company consumer patterns, although I don't think that would change the ratio of one haplogroup to the other from the same geography.

Can you break this down between Belgium/Luxembourg and Holland?
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« Reply #61 on: November 28, 2011, 10:44:55 PM »

I have a larger number of haplotypes than the specific geographic or haplogroup DNA projects have, because I've look through over 30 projects for deep clade tested R-M269 people.  I also pull Ysearch for the corresponding FTDNA kit # to find a better MDKA origin information if available.

Here are the counts for Benelux. 57 from U106 and 49 from P312.


U152     21
P312*    14 (inc. DF19)
L21      8 (inc. DF21, L513)
Z196     6 (inc. SRY2627)

U106*    30
L48      19
U198     4
Z18      4

L23xL51  2
L51*     1


This is still biased by testing company consumer patterns, although I don't think that would change the ratio of one haplogroup to the other from the same geography.
Can you break this down between Belgium/Luxembourg and Holland?
Countries are broken out in the spreadsheets at the L21, P312 and U106 Yahoo groups.  I'm not sure that it is worth it.  I think instead of having about 110 R-M269 people, we need 4-5 hundred.  What does the North Brabant study show?
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« Reply #62 on: November 29, 2011, 12:20:16 AM »

I have a larger number of haplotypes than the specific geographic or haplogroup DNA projects have, because I've look through over 30 projects for deep clade tested R-M269 people.  I also pull Ysearch for the corresponding FTDNA kit # to find a better MDKA origin information if available.

Here are the counts for Benelux. 57 from U106 and 49 from P312.


U152     21
P312*    14 (inc. DF19)
L21      8 (inc. DF21, L513)
Z196     6 (inc. SRY2627)

U106*    30
L48      19
U198     4
Z18      4

L23xL51  2
L51*     1


This is still biased by testing company consumer patterns, although I don't think that would change the ratio of one haplogroup to the other from the same geography.
Can you break this down between Belgium/Luxembourg and Holland?
....  What does the North Brabant study show?
Quote from: Maciamo
Antwerp region (West) (n=80)
R1b : 63.75%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 27.5%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 28.25%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 16.25%

Kempen region (East) (n=84)
R1b : 54.8%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 14.3%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 20.2%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 7.1%


Mechelen region (South) (n=66)
R1b : 56%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 31.8%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 15.2%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 4.5%Province of Flemish Brabant (n=134)

Province of Flemish Brabant (n=134)
R1b : 55.2%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 19.4%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 21.6%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 9.7%

Province of Limburg (n=70)
R1b : 61.4%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 22.8%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 27.1%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 10%

Province of East Flanders (n=120)
R1b : 61.6%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 24.2%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 21.7%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 13.3%

Province of West Flanders (n=141)
R1b : 66%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 27%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 24.8%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 10%

Wallonia (n=74)
R1b : 59.5%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 21.6%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 17.6%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 17.6%

Province of North Brabant (Netherlands) (n=138)
R1b : 65.9%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 34%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 19.5%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 5.8%
- R1b-SRY2627 : 2.9%

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-26032.html
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« Reply #63 on: November 29, 2011, 03:46:21 PM »


Thanks. Very interesting. The Netherlands sample shows roughly the same divide (U106 34%/ P312 28%) as the Benelux results I referred to earlier (U106 30%/ P312 24%).

It is unfortunate that L21 was broken down from P312, but it looks pretty clear to me that U152 doesn't follow the same pattern as the rest of P312. For instance, where U152 is at its highest percentage (17.6%) in Wallonia, the rest of P312 has its second lowest percentage (17.6%).
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« Reply #64 on: November 29, 2011, 09:26:32 PM »

.... The problem with that is U106 is not all that common in France, so I wouldn't look at France as a source for it elsewhere. I am not saying it is rare in France either, but France is not a U106 hotspot...
I caution about using frequency hotspots. I think variance is more important, but unfortunately it isn't typically available in a representative fashion to the degree that we want it.

I apologize if this was already posted but I see that Moffat and Wilson have an opinion on U106 (S21) and a possible early entry into Britain.
"The Scots: A Genetic Journey" by Moffat and Wilson...
Quote from: Moffat and Wilson
But in Scotland at least the notion of a more ancient east/west divide is much more robust because it is observed clearly in the areas where there was little or no settlement of Anglo-Saxon. In Moray and Aberdeenshire, the incidence of S21 is very high in the male population and that of S145 rather low. No doubt the Anglo-Saxons brought S21 and other markers across the North Sea once more, strengthening the gradient of genetic types across England, but they were present in England long before.

Unfortunately, as is typical of their style. they didn't provide the data for their assertion, just the general statements.  We have to keep in mind they wrote a book, not a scientific paper.

I've mentioned this statement by Wilson and Moffat before in support of my argument that some U106 arrived in eastern Britain before the Anglo-Saxons. A number of people rushed forward to explain the unaccounted for presence of U106 in those areas as due to Flemish immigrants or Norman barons.

I don't know why people people assume, in the absence of any supporting evidence, that the Normans were nearly all U106. Of course it is reasonable that U106 was present amongst the Normans, but I would be astounded if it was above 20% or so. It would take a lot of Norman barons to outnumber the local L21.

We discussed that at length before on another thread. It seems likely that the U106 in Moray and Aberdeenshire is due to the settlement of Northumbrians there by King David I in the 12th century.

We know he settled Englishmen there. We don't know of any prehistoric settlement of likely U106ers in eastern Scotland. The same area is where the U152 jumps a little bit, too, beyond its usual very low frequency in Scotland. The U152 there can probably also be attributed to David's 12th century settlement of Englishmen, since U152, like U106, is much more common in England than it is in Scotland.

I saw a post on Rootsweb a day or two ago that chalked all Norman y-dna up to I1. I think people go with whatever they think the Vikings were, and the L21 that seems to really prevail in Normandy is the population base of plain old Gallo-Roman locals. Actually, I think that is probably basically true, but I don't think there ever were all that many Vikings in Normandy to leave behind much of a genetic signature.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 09:27:23 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #65 on: November 29, 2011, 09:58:25 PM »

I have a larger number of haplotypes than the specific geographic or haplogroup DNA projects have, because I've look through over 30 projects for deep clade tested R-M269 people.  I also pull Ysearch for the corresponding FTDNA kit # to find a better MDKA origin information if available.

Here are the counts for Benelux. 57 from U106 and 49 from P312.


U152     21
P312*    14 (inc. DF19)
L21      8 (inc. DF21, L513)
Z196     6 (inc. SRY2627)

U106*    30
L48      19
U198     4
Z18      4

L23xL51  2
L51*     1


This is still biased by testing company consumer patterns, although I don't think that would change the ratio of one haplogroup to the other from the same geography.
Can you break this down between Belgium/Luxembourg and Holland?
....  What does the North Brabant study show?
Quote from: Maciamo
Antwerp region (West) (n=80)
R1b : 63.75%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 27.5%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 28.25%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 16.25%

Kempen region (East) (n=84)
R1b : 54.8%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 14.3%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 20.2%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 7.1%


Mechelen region (South) (n=66)
R1b : 56%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 31.8%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 15.2%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 4.5%Province of Flemish Brabant (n=134)

Province of Flemish Brabant (n=134)
R1b : 55.2%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 19.4%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 21.6%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 9.7%

Province of Limburg (n=70)
R1b : 61.4%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 22.8%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 27.1%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 10%

Province of East Flanders (n=120)
R1b : 61.6%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 24.2%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 21.7%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 13.3%

Province of West Flanders (n=141)
R1b : 66%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 27%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 24.8%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 10%

Wallonia (n=74)
R1b : 59.5%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 21.6%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 17.6%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 17.6%

Province of North Brabant (Netherlands) (n=138)
R1b : 65.9%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 34%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 19.5%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 5.8%
- R1b-SRY2627 : 2.9%

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-26032.html[/size]

Interesting. Those figures, of course, are for Belgium and the very south of the Netherlands (North Brabant Province).

The Busby figures for farther north (Amersfoort and Friesland) show a much higher frequency of U106, especially in Friesland, where the frequency of U106xU198 was about 43%. In Amersfoort it was about 35%, with 2% U198 (i.e., about 37% total U106). The P312 in the Friesland sample was about 10%. In Amersfoort it was 16%.

That would seem to indicate inverse clines for U106 and P312 as one moves from U106 highs in the traditionally Germanic areas of the Netherlands toward the more traditionally Celtic areas in Belgium, where the rate of P312 increases. Busby figures for Germany paint a similar picture.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 10:03:22 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #66 on: November 29, 2011, 10:16:22 PM »

.... The problem with that is U106 is not all that common in France, so I wouldn't look at France as a source for it elsewhere. I am not saying it is rare in France either, but France is not a U106 hotspot...
I caution about using frequency hotspots. I think variance is more important, but unfortunately it isn't typically available in a representative fashion to the degree that we want it.

I apologize if this was already posted but I see that Moffat and Wilson have an opinion on U106 (S21) and a possible early entry into Britain.
"The Scots: A Genetic Journey" by Moffat and Wilson...
Quote from: Moffat and Wilson
But in Scotland at least the notion of a more ancient east/west divide is much more robust because it is observed clearly in the areas where there was little or no settlement of Anglo-Saxon. In Moray and Aberdeenshire, the incidence of S21 is very high in the male population and that of S145 rather low. No doubt the Anglo-Saxons brought S21 and other markers across the North Sea once more, strengthening the gradient of genetic types across England, but they were present in England long before.

Unfortunately, as is typical of their style. they didn't provide the data for their assertion, just the general statements.  We have to keep in mind they wrote a book, not a scientific paper.

Moffat and Wilson's remark that "S21 is very high" and "S145 rather low" in Moray and Aberdeenshire can only be interpreted as meaning "relative to their frequencies elsewhere in Scotland", because here are the frequencies for Busby's Moray sample:

Moray  N=67

U106xU198 = 19.4%

U198 = 0

P312xL21,M222 = 6%

L21xM222 = 41.8%

M222 = 10.4%

U152 = 4.5%

That seems a boatload of L21 to dismiss as "rather low". :-)
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OConnor
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« Reply #67 on: November 30, 2011, 05:06:35 PM »

Maybe the L21's were taken to Scotland for slaves ;)
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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« Reply #68 on: November 30, 2011, 05:19:52 PM »

Maybe the L21's were taken to Scotland for slaves ;)
LOL. Do you mean S21's(U106's) in this case?
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« Reply #69 on: November 30, 2011, 05:25:15 PM »

I apologize if this was already posted but I see that Moffat and Wilson have an opinion on U106 (S21) and a possible early entry into Britain.
"The Scots: A Genetic Journey" by Moffat and Wilson...
Quote from: Moffat and Wilson
But in Scotland at least the notion of a more ancient east/west divide is much more robust because it is observed clearly in the areas where there was little or no settlement of Anglo-Saxon. In Moray and Aberdeenshire, the incidence of S21 is very high in the male population and that of S145 rather low. No doubt the Anglo-Saxons brought S21 and other markers across the North Sea once more, strengthening the gradient of genetic types across England, but they were present in England long before.
Unfortunately, as is typical of their style. they didn't provide the data for their assertion, just the general statements.  We have to keep in mind they wrote a book, not a scientific paper.
The rumour on another forum is that EthnoAncestry has folded, or folded into something else. I just checked their web site. It says.
Quote from: EthnoAncestry
EthnoAncestry has recently been taken over by our new company, BritainsDNA. Our scientific team remains unchanged. Existing EthnoAncestry orders will be processed as normal. To view our exciting new suite of genetic ancestry tests, please visit www.scotlandsDNA.com.  While this site will specialise in Scottish ancestry, we will continue to offer tests exploring British, Irish and European lineages.

Looks like they will really specialize in the Scots stuff.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 05:27:17 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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OConnor
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« Reply #70 on: December 01, 2011, 02:04:11 AM »

quote author=Mikewww link=topic=10221.msg126147#msg126147 date=1322687992]
Maybe the L21's were taken to Scotland for slaves ;)
LOL. Do you mean S21's(U106's) in this case?
[/quote]

Sorry..I'm not up on U106.

Perhaps the R1b related clades were nothing more than slaves brought from parts unknown to Ireland, Scotland England and Scandinavia.

(That for the slave-driving theorists ;)

« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 02:06:47 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2011, 10:02:24 PM »

Sorry..I'm not up on U106.

Perhaps the R1b related clades were nothing more than slaves brought from parts unknown to Ireland, Scotland England and Scandinavia.

(That for the slave-driving theorists ;)
No, I thought the  joke was that in areas of Scotland which should be hugely L21 Celtic, if U106 showed up in any number they must be slaves brought in by the Scots or Picts.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #72 on: December 02, 2011, 04:53:58 PM »

Sorry..I'm not up on U106.

Perhaps the R1b related clades were nothing more than slaves brought from parts unknown to Ireland, Scotland England and Scandinavia.

(That for the slave-driving theorists ;)
No, I thought the  joke was that in areas of Scotland which should be hugely L21 Celtic, if U106 showed up in any number they must be slaves brought in by the Scots or Picts.

Scots king Malcolm Canmore would take Anglian slaves during raids into Northumbria.
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« Reply #73 on: December 02, 2011, 09:21:40 PM »

Sorry..I'm not up on U106.

Perhaps the R1b related clades were nothing more than slaves brought from parts unknown to Ireland, Scotland England and Scandinavia.

(That for the slave-driving theorists ;)
No, I thought the  joke was that in areas of Scotland which should be hugely L21 Celtic, if U106 showed up in any number they must be slaves brought in by the Scots or Picts.
Scots king Malcolm Canmore would take Anglian slaves during raids into Northumbria.
There you go!

Unfortunately our conventional wisdom, or should I say perception, is colored by who won AND by who wrote it down and for what purposes.   I don't know what was wrong with my Celtic ancestors? They just didn't write anything down. I guess my desire for that comes from some other sides of me.

The "venerable Bede", give me a break!
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 09:24:55 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #74 on: December 02, 2011, 11:38:14 PM »

Sorry..I'm not up on U106.

Perhaps the R1b related clades were nothing more than slaves brought from parts unknown to Ireland, Scotland England and Scandinavia.

(That for the slave-driving theorists ;)
No, I thought the  joke was that in areas of Scotland which should be hugely L21 Celtic, if U106 showed up in any number they must be slaves brought in by the Scots or Picts.
Scots king Malcolm Canmore would take Anglian slaves during raids into Northumbria.
There you go!

Unfortunately our conventional wisdom, or should I say perception, is colored by who won AND by who wrote it down and for what purposes.   I don't know what was wrong with my Celtic ancestors? They just didn't write anything down. I guess my desire for that comes from some other sides of me.

The "venerable Bede", give me a break!

In all reality, the Normans won in the end. Look at the Stewart family, a Breton contingent with William the Conqueror that would one day inherit the UK monarchy.

The Celts were just an extension of their Indo-European ancestors: they didn't write, but memorized everything!
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


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Ysearch: 4PSCK



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