R1b1* Cluster 4: Europe from Iran or Iran from Europe?

[Maliclavelli]

Razyn, DYS437=14 and DYS448=18 are found not only in these R1b-NS. They may have converged also in other haplogroups, by chance, and they need other values. For instance these values are found also in some R1b1* (see ySearch: PXBSS and ZQW5V), but also in ySearch AM2QA, Post. The surname is probably in origin Pfost, and seems of German descent. I’d know willingly his haplogroup, ascertained by a SNP test. By his YCAII=22-23 it would seem an R1b1* of Eastern origin.

It seems actually an R1b1* Cluster 4

R1b1* (L389+) Cluster A4
N60050 Flinchbaugh Anthoni Flinspach, Großgartach, Württemberg, 1516 Germany R1b1
13 24 15 10 12-13 12 13 12 14 12 30 14 9-9 10 11 25 14 18 29 14-15-15-17 10 10 22-23 16 18 19 17 37-38 13 11 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 19-21 16 10 12 12 15 8 13 22 20 14 11 11 13 12 11 14 12                                                                                        
104725 Hefner Melchoir Hefner d 1810 Lincoln Co NC m Catherine B Germany R1b1
13 24 15 10 12-13 12 13 12 14 12 30 14 9-9 10 11 26 14 18 29 14-15-15-17 10 12 22-23 16 16 18 16 38-38 13 11 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 19-21 16 10 12 12 15 8 13 22 20 13 11 11 13 12 11 14 12

And see also ySearch PXBSS (Anonymous Iranian) I put on ySearch from SMGF. But probably this should be for another thread.

[Maliclavelli]

I have just found another Anonymous Iranian from SMGF and put him on ySearch (4CBUW), with a high variance respect the others. He gets only 41 markers but the interesting thing are the closest to him on Ysearch: amongst other R1b1* above all Italians of near haplogroups and all my 4 accounts, and I am R1b1a2a/L23/L150! Does it mean something?

[Maliclavelli]

Searching in YHRD probably an interesting finding (European cluster A1/A2, the ancestor, I think, of all the subclades).

7 15 13 29 24 10 13 13 12,13 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 13 29 24 10 13 13 12,13 11 11 14 17 15 14 26 13 >>
1 15 13 29 24 10 13 13 12,13 11 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 13 29 24 10 13 13 12,13 11 12 14 17 15 14 26 12 >>
1 15 13 29 24 10 13 13 12,13 11 12 14 18 15 14 24 12 >>
1 15 13 29 24 10 13 13 12,13 12 12 15 19 15 18 24 12 >>
2 of 111 Kahramanmaras, Turkey [Romani] Eurasian - Indo-Iranian Asia
1 of 249 Çukurova, Turkey [Turk] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
1 of 197 Basque Country, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 365 Mendoza, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
1 of 113 Syria [Syrian] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Asia
1 of 262 Turkey [Turkish] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
1 of 113 Central Anatolia, Turkey [Turkish] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
1 of 311 Peru [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 390 Andalucía/Extremadura, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe 1 of 39 Ankara, Turkey [Turkish] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
1 of 103 Santiago de Compostela, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

This is an R1b1*
1 15 13 29 24 10 13 13 12,13 11 12 14 18 15 14 24 12 >>
1 of 197 Basque Country, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

This is an R1b1a2a1a1b etc
1 15 13 29 24 10 13 13 12,13 12 12 15 19 15 18 24 12 >>
1 of 146 Peru [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America

This is the Turkish haplotype with DYS448=17 and DYS635=26:
1 15 13 29 24 10 13 13 12,13 11 11 14 17 15 14 26 13 >>
1 of 102 Turkey [Turkish] Eurasian - Altaic Asia

1 15 13 29 24 10 13 13 12,13 11 12 14 17 15 14 26 12 >>
1 of 249 Çukurova, Turkey [Turk] Eurasian - Altaic Asia

4 15 13 29 24 10 13 14 12,13 11 12 14 17 15 14 26 12 >>
4 of 30 Gocmen, Central Anatolia, Turkey [Afsar] Eurasian - Altaic Asia

Amongst these haplotypes the most interesting is that from the Basque Country, because it has two mutations never found so far amongst the Spanish/Jewish R1b1*: DYS390=24 instead of 23 and DYS19=15 instead of 16 (see the Anonymous Mexican: ySearch ZQW5V).

[Maliclavelli]

To demonstrate how much is hidden and plenty of mystery about these tests, there is on ySearch another R1b1* with DYS390=24 and DYS19=15 like the Anonymous Basque: M8CMX, but the surname, Harrison, seems fictitious, the origin is unknown, and the “contact person ”NOT KNOWN”.
This haplotype has also DYS437=15 and not 14, like Ofen and one of the Jewish clade, but with DYS490=23 and DYS19=14.

[Maliclavelli]

I think that the clusters A1, A2, A3, A4 of the R1b1 (xP297) Project actually presuppose an unique haplotype, which had YCAII=18-23. Then happened a RecLOH to 23-23. In favour of an European origin is the fact that only Europe retains the original values 18-23, besides also 18-22 (the Italian cluster of DeMao and Toniolo), 22-23 (the German cluster A4). I hope it will be found in Europe also the cluster 23-23, which is the most ancient after the RecLOH, now found in the East.
And it is clear that R-M335, with YCAII=18-23, was born from the original and ancestral cluster and it is overwhelmingly present in Europe, with only a presence in Turkey (Cinnioglu, 2004). To deepen the haplotype found in the Huis of Yunnan.

[Maliclavelli]

Harrison (ySearch M8CMX) could be the witness of the cluster A4 before the RecLOH from YCAII=18-23 to 23-23. He has many points of this cluster. It would be very interesting to know who is and test him for other markers and SNPs. I will send this posting to him, but I have a few hopes.

[Maliclavelli]

Searching the Harrison’s haplotype on YHRD


1 15 13 30 24 10 13 13 12,12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 811 Leipzig, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

14 13 30 24 10 13 13 12,12 3 >>
15 12 29 24 10 13 13 12,12 2 >>
15 13 31 24 10 13 13 12,12 2 >>
15 13 30 23 10 13 13 12,12 2 >>
15 13 29 24 10 13 13 12,12 1 >>

2 14 13 30 24 10 13 13 12,12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 30 24 10 13 13 12,12 12 12 15 19 16 17 23 12 >>
2 of 1122 Stuttgart, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 196 Muenster, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

1 15 12 29 24 10 13 13 12,12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 12 29 24 10 13 13 12,12 10 13 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 211 Luzon, Philippines [Philippine] East Asian - Austronesian Asia
1 of 138 East Timor [Melanesian] East Asian - Austronesian Asia

1 15 13 31 24 10 13 13 12,12 11 13 14 16 16 15 21 11 >>
1 15 13 31 24 10 13 13 12,12 11 13 14 16 17 15 21 11 >>
1 of 40 Miyagi, Japan [Japanese] East Asian - Japanese Asia
1 of 73 Gunma, Japan [Japanese] East Asian - Japanese Asia

2 15 13 30 23 10 13 13 12,12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 218 Tuscany, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 24 Ingushetia, Russian Federation [Ingush] Eurasian - Caucasian Asia

1 15 13 29 24 10 13 13 12,12 12 13 15 19 15 18 23 13 >>
1 of 738 Cologne, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

Nobody of these haplotypes seem R1b1*/Cluster A4, but I’d deepen the Tuscan one.

15 13 30 23 11 13 13 12,12 5 >>
16 13 30 23 10 13 13 12,12 2 >>
15 13 30 23 10 13 14 12,12 2 >>
14 13 30 23 10 13 13 12,12 1 >>
15 13 30 24 10 13 13 12,12 1 >>
15 13 30 23 10 13 12 12,12 1 >>

2 15 13 30 23 11 13 13 12,12 11 12 15 19 15 17 23 13 >>
1 15 13 30 23 11 13 13 12,12 11 10 15 19 15 17 23 12 >>
1 15 13 30 23 11 13 13 12,12 11 11 14 19 15 18 23 13 >>
1 15 13 30 23 11 13 13 12,12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
3 of 249 Çukurova, Turkey [Turk] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
1 of 182 Lombardy, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 86 Southeastern Anatolia, Turkey [Turkish] Eurasian - Altaic Asia

1 16 13 30 23 10 13 13 12,12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 16 13 30 23 10 13 13 12,12 11 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 217 Dubai, United Arab Emirates [Arabs] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Asia
1 of 811 Leipzig, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

1 15 13 30 23 10 13 14 12,12 12 12 15 20 15 15 24 11 >>
1 15 13 30 23 10 13 14 12,12 12 13 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 645 Prague, Czech Republic [Czech] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 738 Cologne, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

1 14 13 30 23 10 13 13 12,12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 126 Iraq [Kurds] Eurasian - Altaic Asia

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[Maliclavelli]

Another possibile R1b1* cluster A4 before the RecLOH could be ySearch HR9EA, Vanderbotermet, Sint-Pieters-Leeuw, Belgium.