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Author Topic: The age and origins of the DF21, DF23 and L21^ split  (Read 2592 times)
alan trowel hands.
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« on: November 11, 2011, 08:42:54 AM »

Do we have any idea of the ages of these SNPs and is their a geographical/cultural pattern. Also, what proportion remains L21* despite this and does it have a pattern? I am interested in suggestions about the early roots of the split into DF21, DF23 and L21* lines.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2011, 02:29:14 AM »

Do we have any idea of the ages of these SNPs and is their a geographical/cultural pattern. Also, what proportion remains L21* despite this and does it have a pattern? I am interested in suggestions about the early roots of the split into DF21, DF23 and L21* lines.

Okay, I finally got serious with Nordtvedt's calculator.  I can make the Interclade calculations work well with my Haplotype_Data spreadsheets and Ken is going to show me how the nested variances work.

I did a series of interclade calculations using only 67 length haplotypes for the major immediately downstream subclades of L21.  I used M222 rather than DF23, though. I only have 3 DF23+ M222- guys so DF23 and M222 come out essentially the same variance wise.


M222 Modal GD to P312 Modal__19
M222 & L513____5.1 __  (6.5-3.6)
M222 & DF21____4.9 __  (6.3-3.4)
M222 & L21*____4.8 __  (6.3-3.4)
M222 & Z255____4.1 __  (5.3-2.8)
M222 & Z253____4 0 __  (5.3-2.8)

L513 Modal GD to P312 Modal__6
L513 & M222____5.1 __  (6.5-3.6)
L513 & L21*____4.1 __  (5.3-2.8)
L513 & DF21____3.8 __  (4.9-2.6)
L513 & Z255____3.5 __  (4.5-2.4)
L513 & Z253____3.1 __  (4.1-2.1)

DF21 Modal GD to P312 Modal__2
DF21 & M222____4.9 __  (6.3-3.4)
DF21 & L21*____3.8 __  (4.9-2.6)
DF21 & L513____3.8 __  (4.9-2.6)
DF21 & Z255____3.1 __  (4.1-2.1)
DF21 & Z253____2.9 __  (3.9-2.0)

L21* Modal GD to P312 Modal__2
L21* & M222____4.8 __  (6.3-3.4)
L21* & L513____4.1 __  (5.3-2.8)
L21* & DF21____3.8 __  (4.9-2.6)
L21* & Z255____3.3 __  (4.3-2.2)
L21* & Z253____3.0 __  (4.0-2.0)

Z253 Modal GD to P312 Modal__9
Z253 & M222____4.0 __  (5.3-2.8)
Z253 & L513____3.1 __  (4.1-2.1)
Z253 & L21*____3.0 __  (4.0-2.0)
Z253 & DF21____2.9 __  (3.9-2.0)
Z253 & Z255____2.6 __  (3.5-1.8)

Z255 Modal GD to P312 Modal__12
Z255 & M222____4.1 __  (5.3-2.8)
Z255 & L513____3.5 __  (4.5-2.4)
Z255 & L21*____3.3 __  (4.3-2.2)
Z255 & DF21____3.1 __  (4.1-2.1)
Z255 & Z253____2.6 __  (3.5-1.8)


I guess this shouldn't be surprising. M222 has the most "off-modal" haplotypes so pairing with M222 for an interclade calculation creates the highest ages.

Here are the three oldest MRCA's from the above.
L513 & M222____5.1 __  (6.5-3.6)
DF21 & M222____4.9 __  (6.3-3.4)
L21* & M222____4.8 __  (6.3-3.4)


Those three ages all occurred in L21* lineages. The implication is that L21 is at least this old. Since one of the subgroups is the paragroup L21*, I think this may be best real range we can get.

L21's TMRCA is about 6.5-3.5 ybp. Since the above are interclade ages this estimate is not a coalescence or expansion age but our best estimate of the real TMRCA.

4500 BC to 1500 BC with a centerpoint of about 3000 BC.

The coalescence ages would be associated with the intraclade variance. This would be the time of expansion. Those ages have been coming out about 4000 ybp, or 2000 BC.  Of course there are wider confidence ranges with those.

.... but it does kind of line up like this....
3000 BC for the TMRCA
2000 BC and the expansion is underway in earnest, at least for those who are extant (survived until today.)

You should probably be able to shift those dates 1500 years either way and not be astray of the statistical confidence intervals.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2011, 10:24:27 AM »

Just for a bit of review on these SNPs, since some are new:

This Y DNA tree chart shows the relationships nicely.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/

Z253 is the SNP directly upstream of L226, a good sized subclade that corresponds with the Irish Type III/Dalcassian haplotypes. L554 is also in the Z253 family.

Z255 is the SNP directly upstream of L159.2, a good sized subclade that corresponds with the Irish Sea/Leinster haplotypes and 464X=2c2g.

DF21 is the SNP directly upstream of P314.2, Z246/DF25/DF5 and L720. This group has very scattered values in their haplotypes so their modal is nearly L21's. EthnoAncestry has found an SNP downstream of DF21 that they label S190. S190 appears to correspond with the Little Scots Cluster.

L513 is the SNP directly upstream of L193, a good sized subclade that corresponds with 11-13 Combo A-1. There is a significant affinity with Scottish Borders surnames and MKDA origins. There are another 10-12 clusters under L513 so it is quite diversified other than the 406s1=11 617=13 signature.

M222, of course, corresponds with the Northwest Irish and Lowlands Scots haplotype. M222 has the largest GD to the P312 mode. This is a sign it is the youngest of these clades as well as the most distinct. There must have been a variety of almost DF23 and/or DF23* almost M222 lineages that have gone extinct.  This in itself might be an indicator of something.  DF23 might be an SNP worth investing in.  We could clearly test Jean M's hypothesis of a La Tene Celt linkage by checking contintental L21 for DF23.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 10:33:57 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2011, 10:31:10 AM »

Quote from: Mikewww link=topic=10198.msg125842#msg125842
Okay, I finally got serious with Nordtvedt's calculator.  I can make the Interclade calculations work well with my Haplotype_Data spreadsheets and Ken is going to show me how the nested variances work....
The nested variances could be the "other shoe to drop." Don't know what the results will be, but there should be better precision in estimating an multi-layer clade/subclade system like we have in P312, L21, etc, etc.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 10:31:24 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2011, 12:59:50 PM »

Nice work Mike. I tried it out with no problems.  

Do you know if there are any contintental Europeans testing for the newer snp's like DF21, DF23, etc.?  There should be a much more granular picture now from what general direction L21 entered the British Isles.  However, this is assuming the continentals are still older, upstream, or L21** types.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 01:00:34 PM by MHammers » Logged

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seferhabahir
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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2011, 01:33:18 PM »

Nice work Mike. I tried it out with no problems.  

Do you know if there are any contintental Europeans testing for the newer snp's like DF21, DF23, etc.?  There should be a much more granular picture now from what general direction L21 entered the British Isles.  However, this is assuming the continentals are still older, upstream, or L21** types.

Don't know if I count as continental (Eastern European, so I suppose so). Found some lose change in the sofa and just ordered DF23, Z254, and Z255. I'm DF21- and Z253- so expect not to be positive for these three either. We'll see.
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2011, 01:38:13 PM »

Landon (France) ysearch 2b7ur is a good bet to be DF23 (413a=21, 481=24). His close matches at 67 markers are from the north of Ireland, Johnson, Johnston, Martin, though. On Ysearch he shows his origin as North Carolina, but on the L21 Haplotype Data Sheet it's France.

Fornier, from France is M222+
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OConnor
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2011, 03:07:13 PM »

Has any DF23+ been found in Scandinavia?
 
Could many M222 have entered Ireland as Gallowglass
since c1200 AD ?







« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 03:16:53 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


eochaidh
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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2011, 03:24:46 PM »

Has any DF23+ been found in Scandinavia?
 


So far the only three DF23+ results with names and origins are from Ireland. There is one reported from Utah, but no name or origin.
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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2011, 03:42:04 PM »

The nested variances could be the "other shoe to drop." Don't know what the results will be, but there should be better precision in estimating an multi-layer clade/subclade system like we have in P312, L21, etc, etc.
Ooo!  Good news. Ken calculates something I didn't show you what Ken calls
GABxxx and Sigxxx. This is where the precision improvements comes in. I'm working it, but I have to translate the math into plain language in my head to look at whats relevant.

EDIT: It is probably important for us to understand Ken's description of his Generations6 age calculations. Here it is: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Nested%20Variances.pdf
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 07:50:26 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2011, 10:01:53 PM »

The nested variances could be the "other shoe to drop." Don't know what the results will be, but there should be better precision in estimating an multi-layer clade/subclade system like we have in P312, L21, etc, etc.
Ooo!  Good news. Ken calculates something I didn't show you what Ken calls
GABxxx and Sigxxx. This is where the precision improvements comes in. I'm working it...... It is probably important for us to understand Ken's description of his Generations6 age calculations. Here it is: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Nested%20Variances.pdf
Okay, the other number I've listed are valid, but this is of greater precision.

In the prior post I showed you
M222 & L513____5.1 __  (6.5-3.6)

Using Ken's interclade "nested" method, the same data produces
M222 & L513____4.8 __  (5.9-3.7)

By considering the variance independently within each of the two subclades and then together, you get a reduced sigma (confidence interval.)

We can estimate 3900 BC to 1700 BC as the probable range for the M222 & L513 common ancestor, the oldest paired age of the L21 subclades. The actual target date is 2800 BC.

Stand-alone, the coalescence age of M222 was 227 AD. This would be about when M222 expanded. The actual range is from 100 AD to 350 AD.

L513 expanded about 507 BC with a range from 800 BC to 200 BC.

Make sure to read to read Ken's document so we can understand how to apply interclade nested age calculations and what they mean.

I'm going to upload Draft version 3 to the Yahoo groups later tonight. It includes the Nested Interclade age on the Results tab. I'm still a little unclear of its relationship to the Interclade MRCA age.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 02:11:02 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2011, 02:47:32 PM »

That does feel we are slowly getting a clearer picture.  Very interesting.  The range of age of L21 roughly spans from the arrival first farmers in the isles to the post-beaker Early Bronze Age.  That is a wide span but its still very useful to confirm that the two main options remain the first farmers and the beaker folk. 

One observation I would make about the major L21 clades as a whole is that they tend to be shared by Ireland and Britain.  This corresponds with the long periods of prehistory where the isles are far more like each other than anywhere else.  That is true of the all phases of the Neolithic and the Early Bronze Age and beyond.  I think the actual leaps to the isles from the continent in prehistory were rare events in terms of migrations as such although a trickle was probably always going on in all directions.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2011, 03:06:03 PM »

That does feel we are slowly getting a clearer picture.  Very interesting.  The range of age of L21 roughly spans from the arrival first farmers in the isles to the post-beaker Early Bronze Age.  That is a wide span but its still very useful to confirm that the two main options remain the first farmers and the beaker folk. 

One observation I would make about the major L21 clades as a whole is that they tend to be shared by Ireland and Britain.  This corresponds with the long periods of prehistory where the isles are far more like each other than anywhere else.  That is true of the all phases of the Neolithic and the Early Bronze Age and beyond.  I think the actual leaps to the isles from the continent in prehistory were rare events in terms of migrations as such although a trickle was probably always going on in all directions.
Well that can't be correct. If that were correct, then an SNP mutation could have taken place in some boy in Ireland or Britain and some of his Y-Line descendants could have "trickled" out to the Continent.
We know that L21 SNP mutations take place on the Continent and then are carried by elites to The Isles where they flourish. This is a well know fact.   :)
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2011, 03:18:53 PM »

That does feel we are slowly getting a clearer picture.  Very interesting.  The range of age of L21 roughly spans from the arrival first farmers in the isles to the post-beaker Early Bronze Age.  That is a wide span but its still very useful to confirm that the two main options remain the first farmers and the beaker folk. 

One observation I would make about the major L21 clades as a whole is that they tend to be shared by Ireland and Britain.  This corresponds with the long periods of prehistory where the isles are far more like each other than anywhere else.  That is true of the all phases of the Neolithic and the Early Bronze Age and beyond.  I think the actual leaps to the isles from the continent in prehistory were rare events in terms of migrations as such although a trickle was probably always going on in all directions.
Well that can't be correct. If that were correct, then an SNP mutation could have taken place in some boy in Ireland or Britain and some of his Y-Line descendants could have "trickled" out to the Continent.
We know that L21 SNP mutations take place on the Continent and then are carried by elites to The Isles where they flourish. This is a well know fact.   :)

There is a difference between the origin point of the L21 SNP/L21's arrival in the isles on the one hand and what happened afterwards.  All I believe is that L21 occurred on the continent and quickly spread to the isles.  That could have either been in L21* form or some form a little downstream from L21.  I dont actually think L21 arrived per se as elites.  I think they may have arrived as specialists who later became high status and eclipsed the locals in prestige and came to eventually be seen as the elite after a few centuries.

That doesnt preclude later smallscale movement in any direction through trade, fosterage, trading posts, craftsmen, marriage alliances, human dowries, prospectors etc.  Europe was well populated by then but I certainly think a trickle would have moved and will be eventually demonstrable by 'out of place' individuals that stand out once y-DNA lineages are very refined by SNPs (STRS clearly have limitations). 
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« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2011, 03:50:59 PM »

That does feel we are slowly getting a clearer picture.  Very interesting.  The range of age of L21 roughly spans from the arrival first farmers in the isles to the post-beaker Early Bronze Age.  That is a wide span but its still very useful to confirm that the two main options remain the first farmers and the beaker folk.  

One observation I would make about the major L21 clades as a whole is that they tend to be shared by Ireland and Britain.  This corresponds with the long periods of prehistory where the isles are far more like each other than anywhere else.  That is true of the all phases of the Neolithic and the Early Bronze Age and beyond.  I think the actual leaps to the isles from the continent in prehistory were rare events in terms of migrations as such although a trickle was probably always going on in all directions.

One thing I would add is that the farmers in Britain experienced a population crash before the arrival of the Beakers.  All of the data shows continuous expansions with R1b possibly favoring a bronze age arrival.  For an earlier farmer R1b subclade, I think this might be reflected in a much older interclade estimate yet with a much later expansion time as in M222.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 03:51:49 PM by MHammers » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2011, 07:29:09 PM »


Well that can't be correct. If that were correct, then an SNP mutation could have taken place in some boy in Ireland or Britain and some of his Y-Line descendants could have "trickled" out to the Continent.
We know that L21 SNP mutations take place on the Continent and then are carried by elites to The Isles where they flourish. This is a well know fact.   :)

That was apparently meant as tongue-in-cheek (maybe), but I wonder why you keep posting things of that nature.

We all know there was movement back and forth. When L21 was first discovered, you and a few others, right out of the gate, decided it originated in Ireland or someplace else in the British Isles. The rest of us, who thought otherwise, had to endure all the "Wild Geese", "randy monks", and "Scottish merchant" posts (especially on Rootsweb) for quite some time before enough continental results came in to balance the picture.

At the time, you accused me of having a "template" and trying to press L21 results into it. That's not the case. Had L21 been oldest in Ireland or somewhere else in the British Isles, fine. I never tried to hide British Isles results or keep others from analyzing their haplotype variance. They were always right there in the project, organized geographically. But, after tons of British Isles results, especially Irish results, and far fewer French and other continental results, the Irish and other British Isles stuff still does not have the greatest haplotype variance.

I think L21 itself originated on the Continent and went to Ireland as L21. It was not born there.

But there are various strongly British Isles subclades of L21 that show up only scarcely on the Continent (at least so far). Those could represent movement from the Isles.

If you still believe L21 originated in Ireland, you have an ally in Lord Voldemort (whose real name shall not be uttered by me here), because that is what he argued, before L21 even made it onto ISOGG's tree, let alone the YCC tree. But his motivation, I think, was a little different from yours (I hope). He did not want to share the title of "true Celt" with any lowly L21s, no sir. He preferred we humbly accept the title of "British aborigine": dwarfish little simians who were crushed under and molded by flaxen-haired U152 "invaders".

Perhaps you think he was right? We got our Celtic language and culture from his ancestors?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 07:30:10 PM by rms2 » Logged

eochaidh
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2011, 07:44:18 PM »


Well that can't be correct. If that were correct, then an SNP mutation could have taken place in some boy in Ireland or Britain and some of his Y-Line descendants could have "trickled" out to the Continent.
We know that L21 SNP mutations take place on the Continent and then are carried by elites to The Isles where they flourish. This is a well know fact.   :)

That was apparently meant as tongue-in-cheek (maybe), but I wonder why you keep posting things of that nature.



Mostly today I have posted things of this nature to cause drama and cover up the pain I am feeling about having my cat put to sleep on Thursday. I use drama like alcohol  When I don't want to face the pain of something I stir up trouble... well actually, it's just a diversion for me but it appears as trouble to others.

The fact is that these forums are extremely interesting to me and I am grateful they exist. I am also amazed at the abilities of the amateur genetic-genealogists.

Anyway, it's when I realize that I'm using drama/disturbing the peace like alcohol that I stop. Thursday will come and go and I hope I meet it without drama. Nothing would honor my cat, Dermot Kehoe, more.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 07:53:56 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2011, 08:02:22 PM »

Rich-no I think the chap you refer to is a one-off!!  Myles definately would not be in agreement with him.  I think Myles is just coming from an angle where he is more focussed on the historical period and Ireland and what came out of Ireland. 

I think that basically there is a long running misunderstanding that snowballed.  Arguing L21 originated on the continent (which seems very reasonable given P312 is just upstream, its pretty common in France and it has its highest variance in France) does not preclude later downstream subclades of L21 that originated in the isles going in the other direction, at least in small numbers.   I think we actually all agree with that.  I dont think anyone has ever argued otherwise.  What keeps this going is uncertainty about the ages of clades and the very poor sample of deep clade tested continental.  All will eventually become clear I think.  I think because some people like myself are most interested in root of L21* while others are more interested in downstream clades with historical ethnic or tribal links it can give the impression that these are in conflict when in fact its all totally compatible. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2011, 08:12:05 PM »


Well that can't be correct. If that were correct, then an SNP mutation could have taken place in some boy in Ireland or Britain and some of his Y-Line descendants could have "trickled" out to the Continent.
We know that L21 SNP mutations take place on the Continent and then are carried by elites to The Isles where they flourish. This is a well know fact.   :)

That was apparently meant as tongue-in-cheek (maybe), but I wonder why you keep posting things of that nature.

We all know there was movement back and forth. When L21 was first discovered, you and a few others, right out of the gate, decided it originated in Ireland or someplace else in the British Isles. The rest of us, who thought otherwise, had to endure all the "Wild Geese", "randy monks", and "Scottish merchant" posts (especially on Rootsweb) for quite some time before enough continental results came in to balance the picture.

At the time, you accused me of having a "template" and trying to press L21 results into it. That's not the case. Had L21 been oldest in Ireland or somewhere else in the British Isles, fine. I never tried to hide British Isles results or keep others from analyzing their haplotype variance. They were always right there in the project, organized geographically. But, after tons of British Isles results, especially Irish results, and far fewer French and other continental results, the Irish and other British Isles stuff still does not have the greatest haplotype variance.

I think L21 itself originated on the Continent and went to Ireland as L21. It was not born there.

But there are various strongly British Isles subclades of L21 that show up only scarcely on the Continent (at least so far). Those could represent movement from the Isles.

If you still believe L21 originated in Ireland, you have an ally in Lord Voldemort (whose real name shall not be uttered by me here), because that is what he argued, before L21 even made it onto ISOGG's tree, let alone the YCC tree. But his motivation, I think, was a little different from yours (I hope). He did not want to share the title of "true Celt" with any lowly L21s, no sir. He preferred we humbly accept the title of "British aborigine": dwarfish little simians who were crushed under and molded by flaxen-haired U152 "invaders".

Perhaps you think he was right? We got our Celtic language and culture from his ancestors?

The  old days of 20000 year old  vanilla M269, 3000 year old Iron Age Gaulish U152 etc died as soon as P312 was shown to be immediately upstream of both and they were all about the same age.  Basically early L21 and U152 were the same people, likely spoke the same language and in all probability did not live that far apart from each other.  The old aboriginals  v Gauls thing died there and then.  The main thing that unites all Celtic areas is P312.  Its the common denominator.  No single clade below P312 is a common denominator of the Celtic world.  Different parts had different proportions of different clades.  It seems to be the P312 connection that unites the later Celtic world.  

Of course the idea that U106 were very different too also died with L11* being discovered and again showing close similarity in age of P312 and U106.  Again they must have been very similar peoples (which is probably not the right word) and likely spoke very similar languages in the early days.  
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 08:13:47 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2011, 10:17:10 AM »

I agree, Alan, all that should be plain to anyone. But Tom Riddle, being not too many years older than I, was marinated in the same old history books, which taught that the British Isles were first populated by a small, swarthy, long-headed race of aboriginals who buried their dead in long barrows. These aboriginals, according to the old books, were constantly being reduced and pushed into the western and northern recesses of the Isles by the more "Aryan" conquerors who streamed in via southeastern England. In the end, the lowly aboriginals - and the authors of the old books to which I refer were not subtle in conveying their disdain - became the base population of the "Celtic Fringe". The more purely "Nordic" and "Aryan" folks were to be found in increasing frequency as one moved south and east, away from the Celtic countries.

I am so familiar with that scenario that it is not difficult to spot. Something very much like it is responsible for the old "Ice Age R1b" thing. I get the distinct impression that it is lurking in the background of Oppenheimer's The Origins of the British, as well.

Later I think I will pull some old quotes to illustrate what I mean.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 11:07:16 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2011, 03:55:27 PM »

Here is a classic example of what I was talking about. It is from Chapter 19 of H.G. Wells' The Outline of History, page 229:

Quote
  Before the expansion of the Aryans from their lands of origin southward and westward, the Iberian race was distributed over Great Britain, Ireland, France, Spain, North Africa, South Italy, and in a more civilized state, Greece and Asia Minor. It was closely related to the Egyptian. To judge by its European vestiges it was a rather small human type, generally with an oval face and a long head. It buried its chiefs and important people in megalithic chambers - i.e., made of big stones - covered over by great mounds of earth; and these mounds of earth, being much longer than they are broad, are spoken of as the long barrows. These people sheltered at times in caves, and also buried some of their dead therein; and from the traces of charred, broken, and cut human bones, including the bones of children, it is inferred that they were cannibals.

   These short dark Iberian tribes (and the Basques also if they were a different race) were thrust back westward, and conquered and enslaved by slowly advancing waves of taller and fairer Aryan-speaking peoples coming southward and westward through Central Europe, who are spoken of as the Celts. Only the Basque resisted the conquering Aryan speech. Gradually these Celtic-speakers made their way to the Atlantic, and all that now remains of the Iberians is mixed into the Celtic population. How far the Celtic invasion affected the Irish population is a matter of debate at the present time; in that island the Celts may have been a mere caste of conquerors who imposed their language on a larger subject population. The same may be true of Spain. It is even doubtful if the north of England is more Nordic than pre-Celtic in blood. There is a sort of short dark Welshman, and certain types of Irishmen, who are Iberians by race. The modern Portuguese are also largely of Iberian blood
.

Wells was not alone in this view. It can be found in numerous other authors of the 19th and 20th centuries.

The notion that the basic population of western Europe is descended from "[t]hese short dark Iberian tribes" remains current. Naturally, given the y-dna side of the western European equation, R1b was nominated for the aboriginal role.

Voldemort and others scrambled to distance themselves from this, hoping against hope that some varieties of R1b could be found that were somehow not of the aboriginal caste. That may have been part of the impetus in the research that uncovered S28 (U152) and S21 (U106). They were seen as superior Aryan havens against the aboriginal storm. This can be easily traced in Rootsweb posts dating back from, I believe, 2002 through the discoveries of S28 and S21 in 2005 and beyond.

I don't know how much truth there is in what Wells had to say. Obviously much of it is about old, outdated racial categories. The Outline of History was first published in 1920. Much has changed since then, and much knowledge has been gained; but it seems to me the basic premise, of a bedrock population that expanded after the LGM, is still there. L21 itself is much too young to be the same as that population, but it can be cast as its y-dna heir (in the Isles, anyway) and part of the Paleolithic continuum, if it can be made to have originated in the British Isles and especially in Ireland, where, as Wells said, ". . . in that island the Celts may have been a mere caste of conquerors who imposed their language on a larger subject population."

What H. G. Wells and Coon and others wrote long ago reverberates in what Oppenheimer, Sykes, and Spencer Wells have written much more recently. It seems to be the cosmos in which their modern intellectual constellations spin.



« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 04:06:51 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2011, 04:31:04 PM »

I agree, Alan, all that should be plain to anyone. But Tom Riddle, being not too many years older than I, was marinated in the same old history books, which taught that the British Isles were first populated by a small, swarthy, long-headed race of aboriginals who buried their dead in long barrows. These aboriginals, according to the old books, were constantly being reduced and pushed into the western and northern recesses of the Isles by the more "Aryan" conquerors who streamed in via southeastern England. In the end, the lowly aboriginals - and the authors of the old books to which I refer were not subtle in conveying their disdain - became the base population of the "Celtic Fringe". The more purely "Nordic" and "Aryan" folks were to be found in increasing frequency as one moved south and east, away from the Celtic countries.

I am so familiar with that scenario that it is not difficult to spot. Something very much like it is responsible for the old "Ice Age R1b" thing. I get the distinct impression that it is lurking in the background of Oppenheimer's The Origins of the British, as well.

Later I think I will pull some old quotes to illustrate what I mean.

I totally agree and those old books are now seen as part of a way of thinking that basically died in WWII in the main.   What we think of as Nazi ideas were actually very common across Europe and racial based nationalism, mythology and ideas of superiority were standard.   All I can say is those ideas are long rejected and seen for what they were and certainly even the early basic haplogroup breakdowns would not have pleased people with those views. I do know what you mean that there are still the odd echo of views that seem to hark back to that angle though.  However, the facts speak for themselves in terms of P312.  All the clades were very close to each other in origin and would have been identical peoples and languages in the early days at least.  Divergence happened latter and gradually. 
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« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2011, 08:39:49 PM »

I agree, Alan, all that should be plain to anyone. But Tom Riddle, being not too many years older than I, was marinated in the same old history books, which taught that the British Isles were first populated by a small, swarthy, long-headed race of aboriginals who buried their dead in long barrows. These aboriginals, according to the old books, were constantly being reduced and pushed into the western and northern recesses of the Isles by the more "Aryan" conquerors who streamed in via southeastern England. In the end, the lowly aboriginals - and the authors of the old books to which I refer were not subtle in conveying their disdain - became the base population of the "Celtic Fringe". The more purely "Nordic" and "Aryan" folks were to be found in increasing frequency as one moved south and east, away from the Celtic countries.

I am so familiar with that scenario that it is not difficult to spot. Something very much like it is responsible for the old "Ice Age R1b" thing. I get the distinct impression that it is lurking in the background of Oppenheimer's The Origins of the British, as well.

Later I think I will pull some old quotes to illustrate what I mean.

Forget U152 and U106 (which we know happens), but take R1b1a2 as a whole. Its ubiquitous nature in Western Europe is disappointing to some people, for reasons unbeknown to me.

Anything to classify it as less than what it is seems almost politically correct.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 08:42:06 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2011, 08:46:44 PM »


I totally agree and those old books are now seen as part of a way of thinking that basically died in WWII in the main.   What we think of as Nazi ideas were actually very common across Europe and racial based nationalism, mythology and ideas of superiority were standard.   All I can say is those ideas are long rejected and seen for what they were and certainly even the early basic haplogroup breakdowns would not have pleased people with those views. I do know what you mean that there are still the odd echo of views that seem to hark back to that angle though.  However, the facts speak for themselves in terms of P312.  All the clades were very close to each other in origin and would have been identical peoples and languages in the early days at least.  Divergence happened latter and gradually.  

I know all the overt racial superiority stuff died with Hitler, but the basic premise still remains: that the bedrock foundational population of Europe descends from those who expanded out of an Iberian Ice Age refuge.

Look at Oppenheimer's The Origins of the British. He has all the movers and shakers and doers coming in the eastern gate, as the aboriginal clay is pushed west and north. Read his vignette about his family's vacation cottage in Wales. It reads like an excerpt from Gunga Din.

It's H.G. Wells and Coon without the overt Anglo-Saxon superiority schtick. I think the superiority schtick is still there; it's just more subtle.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 08:49:07 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2011, 09:13:30 PM »


[/quote]

Mostly today I have posted things of this nature to cause drama and cover up the pain I am feeling about having my cat put to sleep on Thursday. [/quote]

As someone who has been in that position before and unfortunately may be again before too long, you have my full sympathy. For some of us, animals are not just pets, but members of the family.
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