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alan trowel hands.
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« on: November 20, 2011, 03:45:53 PM »

I wondered what is the latest thinking on it.  How much is being redefined by new SNPs.  Z196 seems to be behind a lot of R1b in Iberia.  What of the remaining P312?  What proportion of Iberian P312* is remaining so after testing for the new SNPs?  Is there any SNP between P312 and Z196? I thought I read something like that but maybe I imagined it.

The way I see it is there will be no lines without further SNPs since P312 so the concept of P312* is a myth really.  So, I think eventually all will be some sort of subclade and we could then compare the ages of the various subclades and be able to work out which is oldest of the survivors.  I was quite impressed that Z196 was looking around as old as U152 at one stage.  So, is their enough Z196* to look at the variance on a geographical basis?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 03:49:40 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
GoldenHind
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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2011, 05:07:30 PM »

 
The newly discovered P312 SNPs Z225/229 were found in six samples of colonial Iberian ancestry in the 1000 Genomes Project, which suggests it may be fairly common in Iberia. Unfortunately only one person of Spanish ancestry has tested for it with FTDNA, and he was negative. If my memory is correct, the other handful who tested for it all had ancestry from Great Britain, and all these were negative as well.

Rrocca announced on another forum that another newly discovered SNP, DF27, apperas to be between P312 and both Z196 and Z225/229. Unfortunately apparently it is volatile and subject to back mutation, so it doesn't appear that it will be important.

For whatever reason, the bulk of people of Iberian ancestry don't seem to have much interest in being on the cutting edge of SNP research. This seems to come mostly from people with ancestry in the British Isles. I suspect most of the P312* in Iberia haven't tested for P312 subclades beyond L21 and U152.

There are only about six people (myself included) who have tested negative for all currently known P312 SNPs, and thus are so far P312**. All have ancestry from Great Britain.

Incidentally another new SNP below P312 has just been discovered (Z1897/Z1898/Z1899), but so far it hasn't been offered for testing.

I don't know enough about Z196* to answer your question. Research into it will no doubt be hampered by FTDNA's denial of the request to start a new Z196 project. It has been found in Spain, but appears to be fairly common in northern Europe as well (which is why it was dubbed the R1b-North/South cluster).
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 05:11:58 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2011, 08:54:27 PM »


The newly discovered P312 SNPs Z225/229 were found in six samples of colonial Iberian ancestry in the 1000 Genomes Project, which suggests it may be fairly common in Iberia. Unfortunately only one person of Spanish ancestry has tested for it with FTDNA, and he was negative. If my memory is correct, the other handful who tested for it all had ancestry from Great Britain, and all these were negative as well.

Rrocca announced on another forum that another newly discovered SNP, DF27, apperas to be between P312 and both Z196 and Z225/229. Unfortunately apparently it is volatile and subject to back mutation, so it doesn't appear that it will be important.

For whatever reason, the bulk of people of Iberian ancestry don't seem to have much interest in being on the cutting edge of SNP research. This seems to come mostly from people with ancestry in the British Isles. I suspect most of the P312* in Iberia haven't tested for P312 subclades beyond L21 and U152.

There are only about six people (myself included) who have tested negative for all currently known P312 SNPs, and thus are so far P312**. All have ancestry from Great Britain.

Incidentally another new SNP below P312 has just been discovered (Z1897/Z1898/Z1899), but so far it hasn't been offered for testing.

I don't know enough about Z196* to answer your question. Research into it will no doubt be hampered by FTDNA's denial of the request to start a new Z196 project. It has been found in Spain, but appears to be fairly common in northern Europe as well (which is why it was dubbed the R1b-North/South cluster).

I suppose even if it is volatile, it is still interesting that DF27 linked Z196 and Z225/229. Even if it back mutates in some samples, it still surely doesnt alter the fact that they are located on the same branch. 

Still strikes me that an awful lot of Iberian R1b must go back to DF27 if it includes N-S, 176.2, SRY 2627, Z196* Z225/229 and M153 (I think??).   
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2011, 09:32:40 PM »


The newly discovered P312 SNPs Z225/229 were found in six samples of colonial Iberian ancestry in the 1000 Genomes Project, which suggests it may be fairly common in Iberia. Unfortunately only one person of Spanish ancestry has tested for it with FTDNA, and he was negative. If my memory is correct, the other handful who tested for it all had ancestry from Great Britain, and all these were negative as well.

Rrocca announced on another forum that another newly discovered SNP, DF27, apperas to be between P312 and both Z196 and Z225/229. Unfortunately apparently it is volatile and subject to back mutation, so it doesn't appear that it will be important.

For whatever reason, the bulk of people of Iberian ancestry don't seem to have much interest in being on the cutting edge of SNP research. This seems to come mostly from people with ancestry in the British Isles. I suspect most of the P312* in Iberia haven't tested for P312 subclades beyond L21 and U152.

There are only about six people (myself included) who have tested negative for all currently known P312 SNPs, and thus are so far P312**. All have ancestry from Great Britain.

Incidentally another new SNP below P312 has just been discovered (Z1897/Z1898/Z1899), but so far it hasn't been offered for testing.

I don't know enough about Z196* to answer your question. Research into it will no doubt be hampered by FTDNA's denial of the request to start a new Z196 project. It has been found in Spain, but appears to be fairly common in northern Europe as well (which is why it was dubbed the R1b-North/South cluster).

I suppose even if it is volatile, it is still interesting that DF27 linked Z196 and Z225/229. Even if it back mutates in some samples, it still surely doesnt alter the fact that they are located on the same branch.  

Still strikes me that an awful lot of Iberian R1b must go back to DF27 if it includes N-S, 176.2, SRY 2627, Z196* Z225/229 and M153 (I think??).  

I said this before when it was first discovered the Z196 included the North/South cluster.

There are only three possibilities:
The group was born in the south, and in part migrated to the north.
The group was born in the north, and migrated in part to the south.
The group was born somewhere in between, and migrated both to the north and to the south.
I think the latter is most likely.

Incidentally, Jean M has proposed a connection between Z196 and the Urnfield Culture.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 11:07:42 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
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