R1b and Ancient Y-DNA Results

[rms2]

As you cite, the sample is incredibly small and is not of much use for provide evidence of absence (of R1b for example.)

The same issue will probably cause inconclusive propositions even for positive results. We are seeing this discussion right not for E-V13. It is found in Neolithic Iberia, however, one contention is:  So what? that E-V13 currently found in Iberia is of a different set of lineages and still may have primarily come from some place east at a later date.

The positive evidence depends on what it is.  There is a big difference between finding an R-M343+ L23- person in Iberia in a Neolithic grave versus an M222+ person.

Haven't they found a large amount of E-V13( or something similar) in an area in North Wales?

Yes, in the town of Abergele, which, as I understand it, was an old Roman trading settlement. The level of E1b1b was something like 39%, which is extremely high for anyplace in northern Europe, where E1b1b is generally more like 1-3%.

[Maliclavelli]

One of the fellas on Rootsweb posted a link to this Algerian data.  Frequency is ~11% (11/102).

Code:

### 393 390 19 391 385 385 426 388 439 389i 392 389b 458 459 455 454 447 437 448 H4 456 438 635
031 12 24 13 11 11 13 xx xx 12 13 13 29 17 xx xx xx xx 15 19 12 16 12 24
051 12 24 14 11 11 14 xx xx 12 12 13 28 17 xx xx xx xx 15 19 12 15 12 23
032 12 24 14 10 11 15 xx xx 14 13 14 28 17 xx xx xx xx 15 19 14 16 12 23
133 12 25 14 11 12 14 xx xx 12 13 13 30 17 xx xx xx xx 15 19 13 15 12 23
049 13 23 15 11 11 14 xx xx 12 13 13 29 18 xx xx xx xx 15 19 12 16 12 23
060 13 24 14 11 11 14 xx xx 11 13 14 29 17 xx xx xx xx 15 18 12 15 12 23
044 13 24 14 10 11 14 xx xx 11 13 13 29 18 xx xx xx xx 15 19 12 15 12 23
117 13 24 14 11 11 14 xx xx 11 13 13 29 18 xx xx xx xx 14 19 12 15 12 23
135 13 24 14 10 11 14 xx xx 11 13 13 30 17 xx xx xx xx 14 19 12 15 12 23
053 13 24 14 11 11 14 xx xx 13 14 13 30 18 xx xx xx xx 15 19 12 15 13 23
015 14 24 13 11 11 13.2 xx xx 12 14 13 31 16 xx xx xx xx 15 19 12 14 12 23

Analysis of Y-chromosomal SNP haplogroups and STR haplotypes in an Algerian population sample
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w218230060723252/414_2007_Article_203_ESM.html

Like Anatole Klyosov would say: “Some people's got feeling tells them that the Earth was created 6,000 years ago, but I cannot help them either. Personally, I prefer to leave my gut feeling alone. I prefer DATA and their proper (as much as possible) interpretations”.

See this postings of mine and the date:
Re: Estimating L21 using only recently tested samples in ysearch
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2009, 12:53:27 AM »
“I'll post to Ysearch some interesting haploype with DYS385=11-13.2”.

See the Topic: R1b1b2 ht15 cluster in North Africa (385b = 13.2)  (Read 740 times)
begun by Argiedude.

[rms2]

Pardon me, Gioiello, but it seems to me Dr. Klyosov is woefully short on data.

Dr. Klyosov talks a lot about data, but when asked for it he gets defensive and condescending. I, for one, am close to writing him off as any kind of reliable authority.

One Algerian haplotype with 385= 11 - 13.2, or even a cluster of such haplotypes, doesn't seem all that important to me, especially given the fact that 385 is generally not reported so precisely. Under most circumstances, that value at 385 would be reported as 11-13, would it not?

That seems more likely to be of fairly recent European provenance than of ancient origin.

[Maliclavelli]

Pardon me, Gioiello, but it seems to me Dr. Klyosov is woefully short on data.
Dr. Klyosov talks a lot about data, but when asked for it he gets defensive and condescending. I, for one, am close to writing him off as any kind of reliable authority.
One Algerian haplotype with 385= 11 - 13.2, or even a cluster of such haplotypes, doesn't seem all that important to me, especially given the fact that 385 is generally not reported so precisely. Under most circumstances, that value at 385 would be reported as 11-13, would it not?
That seems more likely to be of fairly recent European provenance than of ancient origin.

It is what I think too. If you read the threads I have cited, the discussion between Argiedude and me, you can see that this was my thinking and perhaps not of Argiedude's at least in the beginning.
It is true that this marker is incompletely tested by FTDNA, for this I have examined haplotypes extracted from SMGF or YHRD. The mutation 13.2 (but also 14.2 or 11.2 found in Europeans) is very rare, a quasi SNP, and demonstrates, I think, a clear relation and pretty certainly an European origin, probably from Italy, perhaps Sardinia.
You should read Dna-forums and see that nothing has changed from some years ago, all what I have always fought against.
About Klyosov, really a great scholar in his field (Chemistry), I have written here that he has wasted dramatically the most part of his time and his energies. I have written many postings against him on “Dienekes’ Anthropology blog”, but now he is a big success on Rootsweb and I cannot reply to him there, but what I had to say to him I have already said. But see how his theories are welcome for everybody who is against an European origin and above all an Italian one of these haplogroups. All this is ridiculous.

[Maliclavelli]

Rich, what you say, that there could be many DYS385 fractionated which don’t appear because FTDNA doesn’t test them, is denied by the SMGF database:

DYS385=10-13.2: 1 (0,003%) : McLeod (Scotland)
DYS385=11-13.2: 13 (0,0037%)
DYS385=11-14,2: 3 (0,008%) : Kitchen (USA), Kitchen (USA), Jones (USA)
DYS385= 11-15,2: 4 (0.011%) : Daines (England)

We could say that the origin is in the British Isles, but you know that I think that the ancestry is in Italy. Anyway if someone demonstrates that we all come from the British Isles I wouldn’t be surprised.

[Maliclavelli]

McLoad (ySearch: CKH6F) matches McLoad (ySearch: 82YZ8) who is R1b1a2a1a1a4a.
We don’t know if these DYS385=10-13.2 are linked with the others and they could be due to different haplogroups. Certainly if the Algerians were R1b1a2a1a1a4a, we should change all our hypotheses about their origin and think to Vandals more than Italians or ancient Romans.

[Maliclavelli]

Amongst the Algerian haplotypes, the weirdest is the R1b1a2a with the values:
16,13,24,28,17,14,11-15,12,10,14,23,14,14,15,12,19

It matches more closely some known haplotypes like those of Volkov, a Russian Jew with the weird DYS426=10, and some Europeans like Ehrmann. The haplotype seems of the Armenian type. See Setyan I have put on ySearch from SMGF: ID: 4ED77.
It seems then it has come from Middle East, difficult to say when and with which people.
The other Algerian  haplotypes could have come from everywhere and in every time. It seems certain that they have different origins and aren’t the witness of an ancient North African heritage.