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Author Topic: L21: the new discovery L513 and how it fits with P66 and maybe P314.2, L193  (Read 3729 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: April 28, 2011, 01:12:03 PM »

There is some pretty interesting stuff going on with the 11-13 Combo Project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21-1113Combo/default.aspx?section=yresults

11-13 people are just R-L21 people that have off-modal high values at 406s1 and 617. This combination is rarely found outside of L21 so it is like a 95-97% odds indicator of L21+ in an R1b1b2 person.

Most of you know we found a group we label as 11-13 Group A-1 that apparently is completely L193+. FTDNA labels it R1b1a2a1a1b4g
We haven't found any L193+ people that do NOT match the 11-13 A-1 STR signature yet. A-1 consists of a couple of large families who feel they are from the Scottish Borders. The big surnames are Elliott/Elwood, Vance/Vans/Vaus, McClain/MacLean, Glendinning/Clendenon, Little/Lytle and Sinclair/Sinkler/St.Clair.

Strangely, P66+ popped up in two people in a group labeled 11-13 A-2-M which consists of mostly Maguire/McGuire/McCown. They have a brother group with very close GD's that I call 11-13 A-2-B.  They are the Byrnes/Burns/Breen group of Monaghan. They are not related to the Leinster/L159.2 Byrnes/Burns folks. The problem is the A-2-M guys are mostly are P66-, while P66+ is also found in Italy in a mysterious lab test of a person with unreported genealogy or background. A twist is that there are Maguires that are shown to have gone and died in Italy as a result of the Flight of the Earls.  P66 sits on a palindromic section of the chromosome so a recLOH could reset it to P66- in some lineages.  

Group A-2 is not that distantly related to A-1, BTW... perhaps in the last 1500 years.

So what? and how does L513 play?

Both an 11-13 A-2-M P66+ buy and a 11-13 D-2 guy have been found to have a newly discovered SNP, L513+.  The GD between the two is over 20 at 67 so L513 could be quite old.  The primary commonality is that both folks have 406s1=11 617=13 and 19/394=15. Anatole Klyosov's TRMCA for all of R-L21 11-13 (assuming it actually is a subclade) was 500 to 1000 BC so L513 might align with 11-13 or parts of 11-13.  BTW, I'm P66- but I do have 11-13 with 19=15 so I've got L513 on order. I'm also P314.2-. I'll get to that.

I think this is big news.  We found a new P314.2+ this morning. Conrardy from the Low Countries.  He fits in very nicely with a Norwegian in what I call 11-13 Group B-1. They both have 406s1=11 617=13 and 19/394=15 which is also in the signature of 11-13 Group B-2 where I sit.  Since I am P314.2- I doubt if B-1 and B-2 are closely related, so maybe the 19=15 mutation is just a coincidence.

There is another group in 11-13 that has P314.2+.  I call them 11-13 Group M13 and they include some Sullivans and McCarthys along with a Driscoll and Newman. There are other P314.2+ people but they are not true 11-13 as they only have 406s1=11 while their 617 is 12 (modal) so I call them 11-13 Group M12.

One hypothesis that solves the riddle is:
The L513+ MRCA was 406s1=11 617=13 and it is quite old.
Subclades spun out of L513 include P314.2+, L193+ and P66+.
A major P66+ lineage had a recLOH and reset to P66- (or P66+ is quite young.)
Within P314.2+, one lineage backmutated to 617=12.

I guess we just need to figure how L513 really fits before getting carried away. I do think L21+ person who has 617>=13 or 406s1>=11 should consider L513.

Probably any of the aggressive (junkie) SNP testers within R-L21** should do both L513 and DF5.  Both may be widespread so I ordered them.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 01:15:27 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2011, 01:19:57 AM »

Congratulations on your recent expansion of the L513+ group (wink, wink, nod, nod).

Interesting indeed!
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2011, 03:44:26 AM »

Congratulations on your recent expansion of the L513+ group (wink, wink, nod, nod).

Interesting indeed!
Yes, I just noticed.  I'm L513+, but fear not, since P66+ appears to be downstream of it and I'm P66- I can still retain an asterisk status and be R-L513.

We now have four varieties/clusters in 11-13 Combo people that have L513+.  Group A-2-M (Maguire), B-2 (Walsh), C (Bussey) and D-2 (Devine.)  I think there is a P66+ McKown who is a "control sample" that is L513+ but it isn't showing up on the haplotree screen or Y SNP report.

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« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2011, 03:48:57 AM »

Congratulations on your recent expansion of the L513+ group (wink, wink, nod, nod).

Interesting indeed!
Yes, I just noticed.  I'm L513+, but fear not, since P66+ appears to be downstream of it and I'm P66- I can still retain an asterisk status and be R-L513.

We now have four varieties/clusters in 11-13 Combo people that have L513+.  Group A-2-M (Maguire), B-2 (Walsh), C (Bussey) and D-2 (Devine.)  I think there is a P66+ McKown who is a "control sample" that is L513+ but it isn't showing up on the haplotree screen or Y SNP report.

Another very interesting thing is the new P314.2+ person. He is 11-13 Group B-1... close (at theoretically) to mine. I'm P314.2-.  I wouldn't be surprised if P314.2 ends up being downstream of L513.  We'll see if 11-13 sticks together as a clade or is at least two major groups with L513 on one side and P314.2 on the other.... maybe L193 under L513 or maybe L193 is a 3rd major split.

L513 has to be old.
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« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2011, 10:24:10 PM »

I noticed ST.Clare come up . i had a friend who was into genealogy. As was his Da. Their family name was Jordan. Apparently the change from St.Clare came about during the Crusades - Jordan -where they fought/gained reputation.
If this surname is included in your study would it make a difference?
As far as I know the name Jordan is totally Norman/English.
Another thing is that the family were dark skinned, brown eyed and bark straight haired.
They attributed this to an ancestor having bought back a 'bride from The crusades.
I know th9s is not exactly on subject but it 'jumped out' so I threw it out anyway.
How misleading can surnames be?
Or NPE's for that matter. 
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susanrosine
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« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2011, 03:57:58 PM »

So Mike, should I suggest to everyone in the Wales "Combo" group to test for L513, P314.2 and L193?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/WalesDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

Note that my "Combo" group is defined thus:
R-L21* Combo Group 3
These men have a repeat of 11 at marker 406s1 and a repeat of 13 at marker 617. (also appear to have value of 15 at DYS 19)
The Combo Cluster has different sub-clusters, including the "Ros Mascy Superfamily Modal" (y-search Q69ZC) and the "Wales Modal 3," which was defined by Robert Hughes (y-search KEFGX).
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Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2011, 09:26:07 AM »

So Mike, should I suggest to everyone in the Wales "Combo" group to test for L513, P314.2 and L193?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/WalesDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

Note that my "Combo" group is defined thus:
R-L21* Combo Group 3
These men have a repeat of 11 at marker 406s1 and a repeat of 13 at marker 617. (also appear to have value of 15 at DYS 19)
The Combo Cluster has different sub-clusters, including the "Ros Mascy Superfamily Modal" (y-search Q69ZC) and the "Wales Modal 3," which was defined by Robert Hughes (y-search KEFGX).

I would definitely recommend L513 for any 11-13 Combo people.

P314.2 could apply as well in some cases, but not the "Wales Modal 3" types which is where I fit and I'm known P314.2-.  Does anyone have an off-modal at 388=13 or at 395s1?

L193 only applies for 11-13 people who also have 640=12. I doubt if there is anyone like that in the Wales project.
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Heber
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« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2011, 01:23:00 AM »

Quote

Strangely, P66+ popped up in two people in a group labeled 11-13 A-2-M which consists of mostly Maguire/McGuire/McCown. They have a brother group with very close GD's that I call 11-13 A-2-B.  They are the Byrnes/Burns/Breen group of Monaghan. They are not related to the Leinster/L159.2 Byrnes/Burns folks. The problem is the A-2-M guys are mostly are P66-, while P66+ is also found in Italy in a mysterious lab test of a person with unreported genealogy or background. A twist is that there are Maguires that are shown to have gone and died in Italy as a result of the Flight of the Earls.  P66 sits on a palindromic section of the chromosome so a recLOH could reset it to P66- in some lineages.  



Mike,

The Maguires are an interesting case study. They were kin to the O 'Neills and O'Donnells and left Ireland as you rightly point out with the flight of the Earls and later with The The Wild Geese. Cuchonact Maguire died of a fever in Genoa on the 12th of August 1608.  There is evidence of a founder effect with one chief having over 100 sons and grand sons. Fermanagh belonged in former days to the Maguires, so that it was for many ages commonly known as "Maguire's Country."

Following the Plantations of Ulster and Munster up to 500K emigrated or enlisted in the Continental regiments of France, Spain, Italy, Austria and Germany during the 17th and 18th C.
Trinity College Dublin is building a database from Continental Regiment records of this diaspora. So far the database has records of 16K in France, 15K in Spain. It also includes students in the Continental Irish Monastic Schools such as Louvain, Paris and Salamanca. Many of the successful leaders were granted titles and estates in their respective countries, eg. McMahon, O'Donnell, O'Shea, Maguire and over 20 Grand Cru Vineyards in Bordeaux such as Lynch, Hennessy, Kirwan, O'Brian (Hauts Brion), Barton, Boyd, Dillon, MacCarthy, MacMahon, Phelan, Clarke belong to this group.

http://www.irishineurope.ie/vre/collection/index
http://www.winegeese.ie/page.php?page=Families

Cuchonnacht (III) (1602-1608) (numbered as the 16th Prince but never inaugurated) Son of Cucconacht the 14th Prince and half brother to Hugh (II) the 15th and last official Gaelic Prince of Fermanagh. Cuchonnacht would be instrumental in the "Flight of the Earls" although he was never inaugurated by the Clan of Maguire he was the last recognized as heir to the Chieftainship of Fermanagh after the death of his half brother Hugh II supported by Owen Roe O'Donnell. But there were two claimants to the title of "Maguire," his claim being disputed by Roe Maguire, grandson of Connor Mor of the Senior line supported by an O'Neill. Neither would be inaugurated as Chief of Fermanagh. In 1607 in what is known as "The Flight of the Earls" the Northern Chiefs, their families and retainers exiled themselves from Ireland. It was Cuchonnacht that obtained the ship and organized the exodus from Ireland for O'Neill and the other Northern Chiefs. Cuchonact Maguire would receive the last sacraments and die of a fever in Genoa on the 12th of August 1608. He was buried in the Franciscan Church of the Annunciation in Genoa. Cuchonnachts death would be the end of Gaelic rule by Maguire in Fermanagh. Maguire rule in Fermanagh would go on but under Gaelic Kings made British Lords. Many Maguires fled to the European Continent, where along with other Irish nobles, their aristocratic lineage was recognized by European courts, French and Austrian, to name two. They found prominence in serving these courts in what came to be called "the Wild Geese," the exiled Gaelic nobles that served & died for foreign Lords instead of there beloved Ireland. They were accepted as noble until the title became extinct in about 1795".

http://www.libraryireland.com/articles/MaguiresDuffysHibernian2-10/index.php#1
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 01:47:35 AM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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rms2
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« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2011, 07:45:44 PM »

It might be interesting to note that about 10,000 French Huguenots settled in Ireland between 1660 and 1760. They actually settled there, rather than merely enlisting as mercenaries in an army and later returning home.

Researching Huguenot Settlers in Ireland
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 07:46:27 PM by rms2 » Logged

Heber
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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2011, 10:03:22 AM »

It might be interesting to note that about 10,000 French Huguenots settled in Ireland between 1660 and 1760. They actually settled there, rather than merely enlisting as mercenaries in an army and later returning home.

Researching Huguenot Settlers in Ireland

Rich, thanks for the link. It is an interesting paper. I would also include the Palatine Germans. Both of these groups eventually integrated into Irish society and contributed to its development, the Huguenots with their trades skills and the Paletines with their new farming techniques and architecture. Unfortunately at the time they were used as part of a strategy to subjugate the native Gaelic population.
The national tragedies of the Flight of the Earls and the Wild Geese and the Cromwellian and Williamite plantations led to one of the most massive transfers of land and resources in history from the Gaelic majority to the Protestant Ascendency minority. The Penal Laws was the final nail in the coffin. This was a major contributor to the national calamity of The Great Famine.
There is no evidence that the Wild Geese returned in any numbers. There was no reason to. They were dispossessed of all their lands and the Penal Laws made them a sub class in their own land.
http://library.law.umn.edu/irishlaw/intro.html


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R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2011, 11:31:27 PM »

Congratulations on your recent expansion of the L513+ group (wink, wink, nod, nod).

Interesting indeed!
Yes, I just noticed.  I'm L513+, but fear not, since P66+ appears to be downstream of it and I'm P66- I can still retain an asterisk status and be R-L513.

We now have four varieties/clusters in 11-13 Combo people that have L513+.  Group A-2-M (Maguire), B-2 (Walsh), C (Bussey) and D-2 (Devine.)  I think there is a P66+ McKown who is a "control sample" that is L513+ but it isn't showing up on the haplotree screen or Y SNP report.

Another very interesting thing is the new P314.2+ person. He is 11-13 Group B-1... close (at theoretically) to mine. I'm P314.2-.  I wouldn't be surprised if P314.2 ends up being downstream of L513.  We'll see if 11-13 sticks together as a clade or is at least two major groups with L513 on one side and P314.2 on the other.... maybe L193 under L513 or maybe L193 is a 3rd major split.

L513 has to be old.
It looks like L513 is that old. An L193+ guy just turned up L513+. Two other 11-13 Combo groups, C-2-4 (a Ross) and Group VW (a Whalen - like Mike Whalen not the L144 guys) came in as L513+.

I now appears that L513 is upstream of P66 AND L193. We don't know on P314.2 yet but we have P314.2 guy with a pending L513 test.
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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2011, 11:17:37 PM »

Congratulations on your recent expansion of the L513+ group (wink, wink, nod, nod).

Interesting indeed!
Yes, I just noticed.  I'm L513+, but fear not, since P66+ appears to be downstream of it and I'm P66- I can still retain an asterisk status and be R-L513.

We now have four varieties/clusters in 11-13 Combo people that have L513+.  Group A-2-M (Maguire), B-2 (Walsh), C (Bussey) and D-2 (Devine.)  I think there is a P66+ McKown who is a "control sample" that is L513+ but it isn't showing up on the haplotree screen or Y SNP report.

Another very interesting thing is the new P314.2+ person. He is 11-13 Group B-1... close (at theoretically) to mine. I'm P314.2-.  I wouldn't be surprised if P314.2 ends up being downstream of L513.  We'll see if 11-13 sticks together as a clade or is at least two major groups with L513 on one side and P314.2 on the other.... maybe L193 under L513 or maybe L193 is a 3rd major split.

L513 has to be old.
It looks like L513 is that old. An L193+ guy just turned up L513+. Two other 11-13 Combo groups, C-2-4 (a Ross) and Group VW (a Whalen - like Mike Whalen not the L144 guys) came in as L513+.

I now appears that L513 is upstream of P66 AND L193. We don't know on P314.2 yet but we have P314.2 guy with a pending L513 test.

A couple of P314+ guys just got L513- results this evening.
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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2011, 12:11:33 AM »

Congratulations on your recent expansion of the L513+ group (wink, wink, nod, nod).

Interesting indeed!
Yes, I just noticed.  I'm L513+, but fear not, since P66+ appears to be downstream of it and I'm P66- I can still retain an asterisk status and be R-L513.

We now have four varieties/clusters in 11-13 Combo people that have L513+.  Group A-2-M (Maguire), B-2 (Walsh), C (Bussey) and D-2 (Devine.)  I think there is a P66+ McKown who is a "control sample" that is L513+ but it isn't showing up on the haplotree screen or Y SNP report.

Another very interesting thing is the new P314.2+ person. He is 11-13 Group B-1... close (at theoretically) to mine. I'm P314.2-.  I wouldn't be surprised if P314.2 ends up being downstream of L513.  We'll see if 11-13 sticks together as a clade or is at least two major groups with L513 on one side and P314.2 on the other.... maybe L193 under L513 or maybe L193 is a 3rd major split.

L513 has to be old.
It looks like L513 is that old. An L193+ guy just turned up L513+. Two other 11-13 Combo groups, C-2-4 (a Ross) and Group VW (a Whalen - like Mike Whalen not the L144 guys) came in as L513+.

I now appears that L513 is upstream of P66 AND L193. We don't know on P314.2 yet but we have P314.2 guy with a pending L513 test.

A couple of P314+ guys just got L513- results this evening.

Yes that splits 11-13 but I think this was always a question mark because only about half the P314.2 guys had 406s1=11 and 617=13.... a bunch were 617=12. This does sift out 11=13 B-1 (Conrardy and Mailand) as being not L513+ 11-13 but fitting into P314.2 instead.

There are number of 11-13 groups that haven't tested include D, FA, FB, K and O.  O is where I have a large group of Co. Kerry O'Shea people so I'll be curious to see where they turn out.

Another L193+ guy came out L513+ so I think that relationship is pretty much set. Thomas Krahn wlll have to update the draft tree to put L193 next to P66 under L513.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 12:14:09 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2011, 04:54:57 PM »

It might be interesting to note that about 10,000 French Huguenots settled in Ireland between 1660 and 1760. They actually settled there, rather than merely enlisting as mercenaries in an army and later returning home.

Researching Huguenot Settlers in Ireland

Also Gallowglass from Scotland.
The first record of gallowglass service under the Irish was in 1259, when Aodh Ó Conchobhair, King of Connacht, received a dowry of 160 Scottish warriors from the daughter of the King of the Hebrides.

They were organised into groups known as a "Corrughadh", which consisted of about 100 men. In return for military service, gallowglass contingents were given land and settled in Irish lordships, where they were entitled to receive supplies from the local population.

By 1512, there were reported to be fifty-nine groups throughout the country under the control of the Irish nobility. Though initially they were mercenaries, over time they settled and their ranks became filled with native Irish men.

I suspect many M222 came to Ireland this way.
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« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2011, 11:37:59 AM »

I've heard from an ISOGG representative that L513 will be added to the official Y DNA tree. It'll be placed just below L21 (parallel to M222, P314.2, L226, etc.) but it will be placed just above L193 and P66.

Including the L193 and P66 people, I count a total of 80 R-L513 people confirmed. 43 are L193 and 4 are P66.

P314.2 is parallel to L513 and may not have a TMRCA with L513 more recent than the TMRCA for L21 overall.

I've also heard that a subclade of P314.2, L362, will be added to the ISOGG tree.

I don't know if they are but they should be adding L371 as well.

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« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2011, 09:58:59 AM »

The discovery of L513 and P314.2 pretty much covers the R-L21 11-13 Combo groups and divides it.

There are a couple of SRY2627 Duncans that have 406s1>=11 and 617>=13. There is also one or two U106 and U152 people with the same configuration (11-13) but other than that if you are R1b and you are 11-13 odds are very high you are also L21+ and fit into either L513+ and P314.2+.

Not everyone is in the project but I have the varieties (clusters) of 11-13 here:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21-1113Combo/default.aspx?section=yresults

R-L513 and R-P314.2 are not closely related although these two there is a chance that there is a larger subclade under L21 that encompasses all three R-L513, R-P314.2 and Irish Type IV/Cont. It depends on the nature of an old mutation to 406s1=11 and how long ago and how many times it happened.  One of the two primary criteria for R-L513 is 406s1's high value and the same goes for R-P314.2 and I think applies to Irish Type IV as well.

The majority of R-L21 11-13 is L513.  I've found 826 people that I'm pretty sure are L21+ and 11-13, implying they are either L513+ or P314.2+.

The majority of these 826 suspects, 775 to be exact, fit into the L513 subgroups. The file of L513 suspects is here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1113Combo/files/Haplotype_Data_R-L513-1113-Combo.zip

There are 22 identifiable deep ancestral varieties that have at least one L513+ tested member. They are here. I list surnames for varieties where there are at least three people of the same surname in the subgroup.
http://www.4shared.com/photo/fullsize/XvWubWF2/Haplogroup_R-L513_Phylogenetic.html

The ungrouped people would be the remainder that have the best chance of NOT being L513+.  Muller, the German, has come up L513+.  I haven't been able to get the guy from Benelux to test.  I believe the Spaniard will test. The Spaniard is very possibly L513- as he has a strange haplotype and has not even deep clade tested yet.

We do have the Swede who is L513+.  We have two Frenchmen who fit into the variety subgroups nicely so I'm pretty sure they are L513+ although I haven't gotten them to test yet.

As far as SNP testing goes, we have 90 confirmed L513+ people. 44 are L193+.

Three are P66+ although that includes the strange result from Italy. I would almost say that this guy is a McGuire that was a "Flight of the Earls" type guy or just a student overseas in some project which I don't understand.  However, I have to admit the STR's we have for him from Ysearch do NOT fit nicely with the two P66+ guys McCown/McKown guys. It is possible that P66 happened a long time ago but got wiped out in the majority by a recLOH since it sits on palindromic (is that word?) section of the Y chromosome.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 01:10:25 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
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« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2011, 05:17:07 PM »

There are now two new categories at the R-L21 Plus Project:

Qa. R-L513 (P66-, L193-)

Qb. R-L513 (P66-, L193 untested)

R-L193 has been moved up to be directly next, as category Qc, since it is also 513+.

Hope I didn't miss anybody in my hunt for 513+ guys.

I waited this long to create these categories not because I doubted the authenticity of 513 but because it is kind of a pain to hunt all the positives down before the YCC changes its tree and FTDNA gives them all their own little tag-end number.

Members of new clades that have their own little designation are super easy to find and move around. Otherwise you have to go through all the Received Lab Results and check everyone who has been tested for that particular SNP.
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« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2011, 10:40:55 AM »

There are now two new categories at the R-L21 Plus Project:

Qa. R-L513 (P66-, L193-)

Qb. R-L513 (P66-, L193 untested)

R-L193 has been moved up to be directly next, as category Qc, since it is also 513+.

Hope I didn't miss anybody in my hunt for 513+ guys. ...
Thanks. I understand the difficulty when SNP's are new and their positioning is uncertain or they may be "private."

I'll go through and try to double check for L513. I'll also compare with who is L513 in the 11-13 project.
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« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2011, 07:19:21 PM »

There are now two new categories at the R-L21 Plus Project:

Qa. R-L513 (P66-, L193-)

Qb. R-L513 (P66-, L193 untested)

R-L193 has been moved up to be directly next, as category Qc, since it is also 513+.

Hope I didn't miss anybody in my hunt for 513+ guys. ...
Thanks. I understand the difficulty when SNP's are new and their positioning is uncertain or they may be "private."

I'll go through and try to double check for L513. I'll also compare with who is L513 in the 11-13 project.

Thanks, Mike.

It's a pretty big category.
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2011, 06:21:21 PM »

Here is an update on 513 was discovered early this year. It is also called DF1 and S215 by various testing groups.

In public DNA projects, I've found 126 people people who are L513+. The largest subclade of L513 is L193 and I can find 51 people who are L193+. Three other SNP's have been found downstream of L513. They are P66, of which we have 3 confirmed, L577, of which we have 1 confirmed, and L705.2, of which we have 6 confirmed.

L513 has about 70% of the STR variance of L21 so it is probably a couple of thousand years old. Most of the people in R1b-L513 have off-modal (for L21/WAMH) STR values of DYS406s1>=11 and DYS617>=13.

When searching for these key markers, that I refer to as "11-13", I've found that out of all R1b1a2 people, if you are are 11-13 the odds are 96% you'll be L21+.

Of the L21+ 11-13 people, odds have been 85% that you will be L513+, 13% you'll be P314.2+ and 2% neither.

L513 is pretty well scattered across the British Isles with the heaviest concentrations along the Scottish/English border and also western Ulster (specifically the L193 people.)  There are also L513+ people in regions with lower testing rates such as France, Sweden, Germany and Benelux. None any further south* than France or any further east than Germany.

*There is the one possible P66+ lab result in Italy but we don't really know anything about that result and P66 is a bit flaky.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 08:03:37 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2011, 06:36:31 PM »

Here is an update on 513 was discovered early this year. It is also called DF1 and S215 by various testing groups.

In public DNA projects, I've found 126 people people who are L513+. The largest subclade of L513 is L193 and I can find 51 people who are L193+. Three other SNP's have been found downstream of L513. They are P66, of which we have 3 confirmed, L577, of which we have 1 confirmed, and L705.2, of which we have 6 confirmed.

L513 has about 70% of the STR variance of L21 so it is probably a couple of thousand years old. Most of the people in R1b-L513 have off-modal (for L21/WAMH) STR values of DYS406s1>=11 and DYS617>=13.

When searching for these key markers, that I refer to as "11-13", I've found that out of all R1b1a2 people, if you are are 11-13 the odds are 96% you'll be L21+.

Of the L21+ 11-13 people, odds have been 85% that you will be L513+, 13% you'll be P314.2+ and 2% neither.

L513 is pretty well scattered across the British Isles with the heaviest concentrations along the Scottish/English border and also western Ulster (specifically the L193 people.)  There are also L513+ people in regions with lower testing rates such as France, Sweden, Germany and Benelux. None any further south* than France or any further east than Germany.

*There is the one possible P66+ lab result in Italy but we don't really know anything about that result and P66 is a bit flaky.

Now for my new favorite topic... L705.2, since I am one.

L705.2 has been coming up consistently negative for L513+ except for my cluster, 11-13 B-2.  B-2 has 19/394>=15 YCAII=18,23 in addition to the 11-13.

Here are the confirmed L705.2+ people so far.

f178598   Adams   England, West Midlands, Shropshire
f36619   Banks   England
f35601   Lewis   Wales, South, Glanmorganshire
f82655   Morris   Wales, South, Monmouthshire, Tintern Parva, Piercefield
f85844   Bergeron France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, La Rochelle
fN54638   Walsh   Ireland, Leinster, Co. Kilkenny


The TMRCA calculations done on the above six come out with 900-1170 years ago.

I did find one B-2 guy, a Connell, who was on the outside of B-2 with a GD of 12 over 67, and he came up L705.2-.  I'm not sure if he is pre-L705.2 branch or what.

I've got thirty 67 length haplotypes that I'm pretty sure are L705.2+. I'll have most of the surname families tested within 45 days. The average GD to the L705.2 assumed modal is 5 and the maximum is 9.

Thomas Krahn says L705.2+ also comes paired in the above people with L706.2+.  There are some concerns about the SNP's stability so we'll have to watch it, but so far it looks that L705, within the scope of R-L513 for sure, and apparently L21 and even possibly R1b1a2, is consistent.


« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 08:09:14 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2011, 07:18:36 PM »

I've posted elsewhere interclade comparisons between L513 and its peers. With pretty good reliability I can say that I don't see how L513's true MRCA could NOT be over 4.1k ybp nor less than 1.5k ybp.  The best guess is looking to be right on target as about 2500 BC.  This is about what Anatole Klyosov calculated a couple of years ago when this was just known as the "11-13 Combo" group.

There are number of one-off L513+ people that don't seem to quite fit but the majority of the group fits nicely into eleven good size (10-15 up to 50-60 ht's) clusters.

Using Nordtvedt's methods and 67 markers, below are the coalescence ages (intraclade) for the eleven larger clusters within L513+. A-1 is the big one. It's marked by L193+.

The TMRCA's for each of these clusters could have happened no later than these times but may have happened just before.  When I do interclade TMRCAs for these clusters I don't find they are that closely related. I generally get numbers of about 2k ybp.  I'll do more with that later, but it looks like L513 ended up having eleven pretty successful founding fathers about 2000 years ago. They seem to have went in various directions before their descendants began their successful expansions (population growth) in the time frames below.  Here they are.

Time to Coalescence (k ybp)

V ____0.3 (0.4-0.1) - Vance(Ulster),Whalen
A-2 __0.7 (0.8-0.6) - Burns/Breen(Monaghan),McGuire,McMahon,McCown
E ____0.7 (0.8-0.6) - McKenzie,Campbell,MacIver
D-1 __0.9 (1.1-0.6) - O'Rourke,McInnis
K ____0.9 (1.1-0.8) - Kingston,O'Gara
J ____1.0 (1.2-0.7) - Vaughn,Watkins
O ____1.0 (1.2-0.8) - O'Shea(Kerry)
B-2 __1.0 (1.4-0.7) - Banks,Barrett,Morgan,Walsh/Welch
A-1 __1.1 (1.2-0.9) - Clendenin,Elliott,Irvine,Little,St.Clair,Martin,
                             McClain,Vance(Barnbarroch)
C-2 __1.4 (1.7-1.2) - Massey,Rose
D-2 __1.7 (2.0-1.5) - Anglin,Devin,Johnston
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 08:28:04 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2011, 08:39:36 PM »

Here are the non-Isles L513 people.

UnkName   Italy   513-1113-A-2-M
Ammerlaan    Netherlands, South Holland, Wilsveen   513-1113-unassigned
Miller   Germany   1113-M
Müller    Germany, Thuringia, Saalfeld-Rudolstadt, Oberweißbach   513-1113-unassigned
UnkName      Netherlands   513-1113-unassigned
Bergeron    France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, La Rochelle   513-1113-B-2
Turpin   France, Bassie-Normandie, Manche, Brécey   513-1113-FA
Holmberg   Finland, Etela-Suomi, Uusimaa, Tammisaari   513-1113-B-2
Sunesson   Sweden, Kalmar län, Tibbhult   513-1113-B-2
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« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2011, 05:42:46 AM »

I've posted elsewhere interclade comparisons between L513 and its peers. With pretty good reliability I can say that I don't see how L513's true MRCA could NOT be over 4.1k ybp nor less than 1.5k ybp.  The best guess is looking to be right on target as about 2500 BC.  This is about what Anatole Klyosov calculated a couple of years ago when this was just known as the "11-13 Combo" group.

There are number of one-off L513+ people that don't seem to quite fit but the majority of the group fits nicely into eleven good size (10-15 up to 50-60 ht's) clusters.

Using Nordtvedt's methods and 67 markers, below are the coalescence ages (intraclade) for the eleven larger clusters within L513+. A-1 is the big one. It's marked by L193+.

The TMRCA's for each of these clusters could have happened no later than these times but may have happened just before.  When I do interclade TMRCAs for these clusters I don't find they are that closely related. I generally get numbers of about 2k ybp.  I'll do more with that later, but it looks like L513 ended up having eleven pretty successful founding fathers about 2000 years ago. They seem to have went in various directions before their descendants began their successful expansions (population growth) in the time frames below.  Here they are.

Time to Coalescence (k ybp)

V ____0.3 (0.4-0.1) - Vance(Ulster),Whalen
A-2 __0.7 (0.8-0.6) - Burns/Breen(Monaghan),McGuire,McMahon,McCown
E ____0.7 (0.8-0.6) - McKenzie,Campbell,MacIver
D-1 __0.9 (1.1-0.6) - O'Rourke,McInnis
K ____0.9 (1.1-0.8) - Kingston,O'Gara
J ____1.0 (1.2-0.7) - Vaughn,Watkins
O ____1.0 (1.2-0.8) - O'Shea(Kerry)
B-2 __1.0 (1.4-0.7) - Banks,Barrett,Morgan,Walsh/Welch
A-1 __1.1 (1.2-0.9) - Clendenin,Elliott,Irvine,Little,St.Clair,Martin,
                             McClain,Vance(Barnbarroch)
C-2 __1.4 (1.7-1.2) - Massey,Rose
D-2 __1.7 (2.0-1.5) - Anglin,Devin,Johnston


Regarding B2, this estimated date corresponds to the expansion of the McGuire family in Fermanagh and McMahons who are on your list. The McGuires are a well documented case of founder effect. The last official Chieften died in Italy following the Flight of the Earls and Wild Geese migrations.

"During the the tenth, eleventh and twelfth centuries after Christ we read in the annals the names of many head chiefs (kings) of the Fermanagh territory. All these bear the surnames of one or other of three families: Ó Dubhdara (O'Darrah), Ó hÉignigh (Hegney, Heaney), Ó Maolruanaidh (Mulrooney, Rooney). All three belong to Clann Lugain, that branch of the Oriel Ui Cremhthainn who were driven from the Clogher area by the Cineal Eoghain of Aileach. Of the three the most prominent were the Ó hÉignigh - O'Hegnys (FS p.20). These families were probably of the same race as the Maguires, who afterwards became Princes of Fermanagh. Others who are said to be of the race of Clan Colla, of Oriel, are the Ó Flanagans, the McMahons of Monaghan, the Ó Hanlons of Armagh, & the Ó Kellys of Galway & Roscommon."

"The predominance of Maguire began in 1264 when they unseated Flaithbheartach Ua Daimhín - Flaherty O'Devine, lord of Tirkennedy from being king of Fermanagh <http://www.advernet.ie/fermanagh/>, the Devines remained lords of Tirkennedy but their unseating as King of Fermanagh lead to the Maguires, in the 14th century, being numbered among the highest ranking nobles in Ulster. They were Gaelic Lords & English Barons of Fermanagh for the next three centuries, their chief being the most important there. They were kinsmen of the kingly O'Neills & the princely O'Donnells. (FS p.25)"
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R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2011, 01:07:32 PM »

...
Time to Coalescence (k ybp)

A-2 __0.7 (0.8-0.6) - Burns/Breen(Monaghan),McGuire,McMahon,McCown

Regarding B2, this estimated date corresponds to the expansion of the McGuire family in Fermanagh and McMahons who are on your list. The McGuires are a well documented case of founder effect. The last official Chieften died in Italy following the Flight of the Earls and Wild Geese migrations.

"During the the tenth, eleventh and twelfth centuries after Christ we read in the annals the names of many head chiefs (kings) of the Fermanagh territory. All these bear the surnames of one or other of three families: Ó Dubhdara (O'Darrah), Ó hÉignigh (Hegney, Heaney), Ó Maolruanaidh (Mulrooney, Rooney). All three belong to Clann Lugain, that branch of the Oriel Ui Cremhthainn who were driven from the Clogher area by the Cineal Eoghain of Aileach. Of the three the most prominent were the Ó hÉignigh - O'Hegnys (FS p.20). These families were probably of the same race as the Maguires, who afterwards became Princes of Fermanagh. Others who are said to be of the race of Clan Colla, of Oriel, are the Ó Flanagans, the McMahons of Monaghan, the Ó Hanlons of Armagh, & the Ó Kellys of Galway & Roscommon."

"The predominance of Maguire began in 1264 when they unseated Flaithbheartach Ua Daimhín - Flaherty O'Devine, lord of Tirkennedy from being king of Fermanagh <http://www.advernet.ie/fermanagh/>, the Devines remained lords of Tirkennedy but their unseating as King of Fermanagh lead to the Maguires, in the 14th century, being numbered among the highest ranking nobles in Ulster. They were Gaelic Lords & English Barons of Fermanagh for the next three centuries, their chief being the most important there. They were kinsmen of the kingly O'Neills & the princely O'Donnells. (FS p.25)"
I think you mean 11-13 Cluster A-2, right?
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