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MHammers
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« on: November 01, 2011, 09:56:44 AM »

E-V13 and G2a in neolithic Spain
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/11/y-haplogroups-e-v13-and-g2a-in.html
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 09:58:38 AM by MHammers » Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2011, 10:26:09 AM »


We will ask Dienekes Pontikos to backdate the Greek colonization.
   
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2011, 10:55:59 AM »

Out of curiousity, I ran 51 E-V13's from the Haplogroup E project through Ken's spreadsheet.  All were from France, British Isles, Germany, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, and Portugal, i.e. mostly western Europe.

Their intraclade age was G=193 or 5790 ybp @ 30 yrs/G.  So, definitely "within the ballpark" of the late neolithic.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2011, 11:57:03 AM »


Interesting! This once again confirms G2a's dominance during the Neolithic in Europe.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2011, 12:27:16 PM »

And supplements demonstrate that G2a had its centre in Italy and E-V13 in Western Balkans, then they were probably the Cardials who colonized Western Europe from Italy 7500YBP. I am always waiting that R1b is found in some part of Italy of the same time.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2011, 02:44:49 PM »

Once upon a time there was a German, a Greek and an Italian…

The German (Eurologist? No, he is Royking!!!): “If real, then maybe V13 comes from an LBK context further north (Germany/Czech Republic etc...); if it is artifactual, then maybe some Provencal individual contaminated the samples”

The Greek (Dienekes): “I would definitely want to see some other Neolithic E-V13 turn up somewhere to be entirely convinced that it's real. But, why would it come from the LBK? If the Neolithic spread to Iberia by a maritime route, and the haplotype has links to Mediterranean populations, the easiest explanation is that it spread across the Mediterranean from the east, directly, and not via an LBK detour”.

The Italian (me):… Gabriel García Atiénzar and Francisco Javier Jover Maestre, The introduction of the first farming communities in the Western Mediterranean: the Valencian Region of Spain as example. Arqueología Iberoamericana 2011.


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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2011, 10:46:16 AM »

On SMGF there are 38 persons at a GD of less than 70% from the G2a found in Spain 7000YBP. I have extracted the two Italians. The others are all from Western Europe.

DYS456=   15                       15                                  15
DYS389I=  12                       12                                  12
DYS390=    23                      23                                  22
DYS389II= 29                       30                                  29
DYS458=    18                      16                                   17
DYS19=      15                       15                                  15
DYS385=    14-14                  14-14                             14-14
DYS393=    13                        13                                 14
DYS391=    10                        10                                 10
DYS439=    11                        11                                 11
DYS635=    21                         21                                21
DYS392=    11                         11                                11
H4=           12                          11                                10
DYS437=    16                          16                                16
DYS438=    10                          10                                10
DYS448=    22                          21                                 22


The first Italian is Pelucchi (ySearch: ANS98), the second is Digiovanni.

They are probably G2a3b1a2, the Italian cluster, found in a Tuscan of 1000 Genomes Project.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 11:06:10 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2011, 12:36:08 PM »

We may presuppose that the G2a from 7000Y ago Spain is the modal of two Italians. We have 10 mutations:
(454x10): 34= 133,5
133,5x32=4272 years ago

Using my method:
DYS390= 0,004405
DYS389II= 0,002584
DYS458=0,005804x3
DYS393= 0,001119
H4=0,003044x3
DYS448=0,002375
0,037027:10= 0,0037027
1:0,0037027=270
(270x10):34=79.41
79.41x32=2541YBP
Completely wrong. It could be valid for a very short period.

Actually:
7000:32=218
(x.10):34=218
x=218.3,4
x=741,2
1:741,2=0,0013491

The mutation rate within a period of 7000 years  and for these markers must be: 0,0013491.

Anyway nobody could have presupposed that the modal of DYS458, having a value of 16 and 17, was 18, and of H4, having the values of 11 and 10, was 12.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2011, 01:48:53 PM »

I have put on ySearch also Digiovanni (TM6HQ), but probably he isn't G2a3b1a2, having DYS388=12 and not 13.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2011, 11:49:49 AM »

But certainly it is a G2a3b1a2 Gessati (ySearch: ZV2VA/2G594) with DYS388=13. A little changes:

DYS458= 15
DYS439= 12
H4= 11
DYS448= 21
respect to Digiovanni.

And who would have thought that the modal of 7000 ya was
DYS458= 18
H4= 12
etc. ?

I have always said that to imagine the modal from the most diffused values of the present haplotypes was a mistake, and it is so.
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Maliclavelli


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OConnor
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« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2011, 06:18:21 AM »

and so...

how can you be sure that 458=18 back then wasn't a simple mutational change
around the model? (whatever the model was at that time)
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Maliclavelli
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« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2011, 09:35:52 AM »

Yes, of course we should presuppose that that haplotype found in 7000 years ago Spain was the ancestor of these two Italians, and it is to be demonstrated. But if you look at all the G2a3b1a2 (L497+) on the Haplogroup G Project at FTDNA, you can see that DYS458 has values under 18 but also over it. I think it has happened what I have always supported, that markers mutate above all around the modal but sometime go for the tangent, and 18 could be the real value of 7000 years ago. But two other things are important to me:
1)   the esteem of 2500 years ago for this haplogroup (see Wikipedia: Haplogroup G) is ridiculous
2)   that haplogroup G2a3b1a2 finds its most ancient witness in the Tuscan G-L497+ of the 1000 Genomes Project, then that all they derive from Italy is a hypothesis I would take in serious consideration.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 09:59:08 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2011, 04:57:22 PM »

Another proof: see “Dienekes’ anthropology blog”
“Statistical phylogeographic analyses with mitochondrial COI and nuclear hsp70 haplotypes were used to answer the questions of the species' origin, sequence and timing of dispersal. The origin of the species was on Sardinia. Starting from there, a first expansion to Algeria and then to France took place. Abiotic and zoochorous dispersal could be excluded by considering the species' life style, leaving only anthropogenic translocation as parsimonious explanation. The geographic expansion could be dated to approximately 8,000 years before present with a 95% confidence interval of 10,000 to 3,000 years before present”.
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Maliclavelli


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Bren123
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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2012, 07:12:17 AM »


Interesting! This once again confirms G2a's dominance during the Neolithic in Europe.


Would that have been the case for Britain also?
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LDJ
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« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2012, 01:19:16 PM »


Interesting! This once again confirms G2a's dominance during the Neolithic in Europe.


Would that have been the case for Britain also?

We won't know for sure until some Neolithic y-dna is recovered in Britain. I suspect it is the case, but we don't know yet.

Part of the problem with ancient dna is that there is so little of it. We could be reading way too much into what little has been recovered.
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Bren123
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« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2012, 11:02:14 AM »


Interesting! This once again confirms G2a's dominance during the Neolithic in Europe.


Would that have been the case for Britain also?

We won't know for sure until some Neolithic y-dna is recovered in Britain. I suspect it is the case, but we don't know yet.

Part of the problem with ancient dna is that there is so little of it. We could be reading way too much into what little has been recovered.

True,but I think aDNA is a much better way of  telling us what was going on at that time than modern DNA studies,IMHO!
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 11:06:35 AM by Bren123 » Logged

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