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Author Topic: R1b1* fatherland  (Read 1078 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: November 01, 2011, 10:43:31 AM »

Dear DeMao, I am seeing you have 67 marker values, why haven't you updated your ySearch account? Do you know that your Y is very interesting?
Gioiello Tognoni

Dear Gioiello
I'm not sure what more I can upload to my ySearch account. I have very little information on ancestors.
Why is my "Y" interesting. It seems awfully strange that I have no matches.
Best regards,
John

Dear Demao, in your ySearch account you are registered only with your
37 markers, but on the R1b1 (xP297) Project at FTDNA you have been
tested for 67 markers:

N83832 Demao DeMao Italy R1b1 13 24 16 11 12-14 12 13 12 13 13 29 14
9-9 11 11 25 15 18 28 14-14-14-14 11 11 18-22 15 16 17 16 36-36 14 8
11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 19-21 15 10 12 12 14 8 12 24 21 14 11 11
13 12 11 12 13

You could update your ySearch account.
Your data are interesting for these reasons:
1)      It would be important to ascertain the origin of your surname. It
doesn’t seem Italian, but it would seem more of Iberian origin.
2)      You match closer some R1b1* of Iberian origin, possibly from Jewish origin.
3)      I am the theorist of an Italian Refugium of hg. R1b1, but Jews think
that this haplogroup is from Middle East, and Jewish in its origin.
4)      Your data (origin of the family) and Y could answer my questions.
5)      Why on R1b1* Project you are signed as: “Need to order deep clade
test”. Which SNPs have you been tested for?.
Kind Regards, Gioiello Tognoni del Badia

Dear Gioiello
Forgive my ignorance on this but it is not my area of specialized knowledge.
I have just updated my ySearch account.
I believe the surname was originally DeMaio but was changed by immigration officials to the current spelling.
According to my FTDNA I don't have any further SNP's available to order.
My Haplogroup information was R1B1
P25+V88-P297-M73-M335-M269-M18-
I thought this was the results of a deep clade test so I'm not certain why the R1B1 project says I need one. Am I wrong?
The R1B1 project also seems to indicate I am V88+ which differs from my test results.
As well, my test results say nothing about V69 which the R1B1 project indicates is +
Sorry to take much of your time but this is confusing, and interesting.
Best,
John

Dear John, you doesn't need any more. You are R1b1*/P25+/V88-, the
original, and your origin, if your surname was De Maio, is certainly
Italian. You are the demonstration of my theories. Perhaps this
doesn't fit Jews or those Italian Americans who love everybody except
Italians.
You are demonstrating my theories: R1b1*, the most ancient, the
original, was Italian.

Thanks thanks thanks.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 12:08:17 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2011, 11:25:29 AM »

.... You are demonstrating my theories: R1b1*, the most ancient, the
original, was Italian....
Your theory could well be true, but it would be nice if you had more evidence.

I'm looking at the R1b1* project.  I don't necessarily see an Italian focus to it.  
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1Asterisk/default.aspx?section=yresults

My wife's grandfather was as Italian as you could get (at least we all think so and he is from Trieste) and Italy is a beautiful place so I don't have any reason to not wish for R1b-P25 to have originated in Italy.

I just don't get the evidence of your theory, yet. It seems like you could use more data.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 11:26:03 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2011, 12:18:05 PM »

Dear Mike, I appreciate your interest for subclades downstrean R-L21, you are a neophyte on this, and you are doing a good work. I am writing on this from many years, I suffered two banishments and I have spoken of R1b1, R1b1a2, R1b1a2a etc. in many thousands of letters. Believe me, and ask you why a case like Mongino (labelled by Vizachero like R1b1a2, actually R1b1*) and this very important De Maio (DeMao) have been hidden.

Remember that I am always waiting for the research the great Cruciani promised me about my theory that African R1b1/V88+ had come from Italy by sea. Cruciani found in his research some R1b1/V88- in Italy. This De Maio is another one, and with a variance none of the others has. We find here too some Armenians, but they have CDYII=23-23, and I wrote that they aren't the ancestor of European subclades.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 04:01:00 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2011, 03:15:13 PM »

Dear Mike, I appreciate your interest for subclades downstrean R-L21, you are a neophye on this, and you are doing a good work. I am writing on this from many years, I suffered two banishments and I have spoken of R1b1, R1b1a2, R1b1a2a etc. in many thousands of letters. Believe me, and ask you why a case like Mongino (labelled by Vizachero like R1b1a2, actually R1b1*) and this very important De Maio (DeMao) have been hidden.

Remember that I am always waiting for the research the great Cruciani promised me about my theory that African R1b1/V88+ had come from Italy by sea. Cruciani found in his research some R1b1/V88- in Italy. This De Maio is another one, and with a variance none of the others has. We find here too some Armenians, but they have CDYII=23-23, and I wrote that they aren't the ancestor of European subclades.
I am a neophyte (I think that is what you mean) and I admit it!

You are probably quite experienced in this, but it would nice if you could produce some kind of genetic numeric evidence other than an isolated individual haplotype here or there with conjectures as to surname origins. I don't mean that harshly, but I am anxious to see actual patterns in the data that would provide evidence for your hypothesis.

I think it was Aristotle who made the point that one does not a trend make.
http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/38907.html
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 03:19:11 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2011, 04:11:45 PM »

In Italian we say that “una rondine non fa primavera”, but I haven’t only a swallow. I have speculated about this in many letters, in the forums and privately, above all with Sam Vass, an R1b1*, now V88+, then not of the main line which brings to our subclades. I think you should read what I have written, and there is a lot also in this forum, for instance “The R1b1* which generated R-P297 and R-M269” (unfortunately SMGF hasn’t yet released all the values of Toniolo (VXK5N)) etc.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2011, 04:42:51 PM »

See also:

About R-L23 tree of Handshar (R1b and subclades)

R1b1* in Indonesia (Y haplogroup)

R1b1* map (Y haplogroup)


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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2011, 05:52:52 AM »

To Clan_Heber on 23andMe:

I have just put on ySearch an Anonymous Mexican (ZQW5V) from SMGF. He is almost different from the previous known Spaniards (above all from Puerto Rico) of possible Jewish origin, demonstrating that there wasn’t an only line there. There are many individuals from Armenia and Iran (or nearby), but they have CDYII=23-23, and I don’t think they are at the origin of the subclades (R1b1b, R1b1b1, R1b1b2). There are also many Europeans (British Isles, Italy etc.). You can look at the R1b1 (xP297) Project c/o FTDNA.
The problem is always the same: are the Italians of Jewish origin or are Jews from Italian origin?
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2011, 11:47:17 AM »

See also:
About R-L23 tree of Handshar (R1b and subclades)
R1b1* in Indonesia (Y haplogroup)
R1b1* map (Y haplogroup)
I've looked but I'm not sure what the data based evidence is you are pointing to.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2011, 12:52:19 PM »

I've looked but I'm not sure what the data based evidence is you are pointing to.

Look at the thread : aDNA from Neolithic Spain (Y haplogroup), where I think having demonstrated, in corpore vili, how was wrong the method of calculating the ancientness of a haplogroup, how it is demonstrated what I have said about hg. G and Italy, about the colonization of Spain and Western Europe by seafarers from Italy 7500YBP (Cardial agriculturalists from Tuscany, Liguria etc,), how G2a3b1a2 (the ancestral found by 1000 genomes Project in a Tuscan) is the trace of the expansion from Italy.
I continue to believe that with it there was R1b1b2. Mind to the fact that the ancestral to your R-L21 is found in Spain.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2011, 01:31:33 PM »

I've looked but I'm not sure what the data based evidence is you are pointing to.

Look at the thread : aDNA from Neolithic Spain (Y haplogroup), where I think having demonstrated, in corpore vili, how was wrong the method of calculating the ancientness of a haplogroup, how it is demonstrated what I have said about hg. G and Italy, about the colonization of Spain and Western Europe by seafarers from Italy 7500YBP (Cardial agriculturalists from Tuscany, Liguria etc,), how G2a3b1a2 (the ancestral found by 1000 genomes Project in a Tuscan) is the trace of the expansion from Italy.
I continue to believe that with it there was R1b1b2. Mind to the fact that the ancestral to your R-L21 is found in Spain.

Perhaps I'm reading the wrong links. Can you cite specifically the link or just requote your evidence?  I see you say there are problems with other hypotheses and you cite individual haplotypes here and there, but I don't see any evidence that partially demonstrates your theory. Perhaps, I'm too harsh but I don't see it.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2011, 02:05:22 PM »

Mike, read this paper, it is for free:

Gabriel García Atiénzar and Francisco Javier Jover Maestre, The introduction of the first farming communities in the Western Mediterranean: the Valencian Region of Spain as example. Arqueología Iberoamericana 2011.

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« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2011, 09:04:07 PM »

Mike, read this paper, it is for free:
Gabriel García Atiénzar and Francisco Javier Jover Maestre, The introduction of the first farming communities in the Western Mediterranean: the Valencian Region of Spain as example. Arqueología Iberoamericana 2011.
I understand the Cardial Wares Neolithic expansion went from the Near East through Geece and the boot of Italy all the way to France.

I don't see any mention of R1b1 in the article so I don't see what evidence you have for linking R1b1 to the Cardial Wares, if that is what you are saying.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2011, 09:00:57 AM »

“The Cova Ampla del Montgó (Xàbia-Jávea, Marina
Alta) could also be related to the contexts given in central
Italy from some ceramic fragments with decorative
patterns reminiscent of the style known as linee dentellate
or BPF – Basi-Pienza-Filiestru – (Soler Díaz 2007:
38), a typical style of the Italian coastal basin situated
between the Arno and the Tiber and the Tuscan islands
that can be distinguished due to decorations of vertical
impressions using a shell with jagged edges (mainly Cardium),
the so-called ceramica impressa style Guadone
(Tine 2002), although its presence is also evident in different
areas of the western Mediterranean […] characterized by the presence of
a ceramic vessel with a decoration of imprints made with
a simple pointed instrument which allows us to relate it
with different Mediterranean regions, especially Liguria […]to J.
 Guilaine and C. Manen (2002), the
presence in the Ligurian-Provencal region of decorated
pottery associated with the different Italian facies of the
impressed ware horizon is most likely the result of occasional
incursions by sea and of an initial occupation of
these sites. This means that there would have been pioneering
settlements established ca. 5750-5500 cal BC, at
the same time that the facies of impressed potteries in
southern Italy were at their point of maximum development,
and which probably influenced various areas along
the Tyrrenian (Fugazzola 2002), Ligurian (Binder &
Maggi 2001; Manen 2000), French Provence coasts
(Manen 2002; Guilaine & Manen 2007) and possibly the
east coast of the Iberian Peninsula.
[…]Decorative impressed motifs appear
arranged in well defined bands and are frequently filled
with geometric motifs; a decorative syntax that separates
the Cardial culture from that of the Italian facies observed
within the pioneering episode of the early settlements”.

It is clear that the peopling of Western Europe was due to Italian
agriculturalist seafarers. That they came from Middle East is all to be
demonstrated and I think is all due to the old prejudice that light came
from East (Ex Oriente lux). My hypothesis is that Mesolithic Italians
became agriculturalists and diffused them with Agriculture to the whole
Europe, from Spain and South France to the British Isles. I think nobody
will think that G2a3b1a2 was other than Italian and E-V13 other than
Balkan. My bet is that also R1b will be found in Italy and what will decide
who amongst us is right and who is wrong will be the aDNA.
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Maliclavelli


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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2011, 12:44:27 PM »

...It is clear that the peopling of Western Europe was due to Italian agriculturalist seafarers. That they came from Middle East is all to be
demonstrated and I think is all due to the old prejudice that light came
from East (Ex Oriente lux).
I agree with you that the Cadial Wares Neolithic expansion went through Italy and had large impact on the populations of south and southwest Europe. My caveat is that what haplogroups were involved and when they jumped on board, be it the Near East, Greece or the surrounding islands, or Italy is definitely an open question.

There are also other migrations behind the Cardial Wares that may have impacted Europe, including south and southwest Europe.

I disagree with any implication that Cardial Wares had a significant impact on all of Western Europe. It's clear that the LBK Neolithic expansion, for one, had a very significant impact on central, northern and western Europe.

Quote from: Maliclavelli
My hypothesis is that Mesolithic Italians
became agriculturalists and diffused them with Agriculture to the whole
Europe, from Spain and South France to the British Isles. I think nobody
will think that G2a3b1a2 was other than Italian and E-V13 other than
Balkan.

My bet is that also R1b will be found in Italy and what will decide who amongst us is right and who is wrong will be the aDNA.
You could be right!  I just don't see the data that backs up your linkage or R1b1 to an Italian peninsula origination.
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