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Author Topic: Secret of the Basques unlocked?  (Read 1871 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: August 30, 2011, 11:57:13 AM »

Sorry for the intrigue. I just found another cat and thought I should throw it in with the pigeons. (smile)

What do you think of this guy? He is in the SRY2627 project and is tested L176.2+ but SRY2627- L165-.

f155018    Antuñano    R-Z196/L176**    Spain    EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees    Spain, Basque Country, Vizcaya, Valmaseda

Among his off-modals are 458=16 447=26 449>=30 534=16 446<=15 464=14,15,15 (464d=17)

This off-modal STR signature (x464d) matches with
f66014    MacLeod    R-Z196/L176/L165    Scotland    IS Sco z unk    Scotland
f41571    MacLeod    R-Z196/L176/L165    Scotland    IS Sco z unk    Scotland
f96597    MacLeod    R-Z196/L176/L165    Scotland    IS Sco z unk    Scotland
f47096    MacLeod    R-Z196/L176/L165    Scotland    IS Sco North    Scotland, Outer Hebrides, Isle of Harris
f150587    McLeod    R-Z196/L176/L165    Scotland    IS Sco North    Scotland, Inner Hebrides, Isle of Skye, Bracadale
f172409    McLeod    R-Z196/L176/L165    Scotland    IS Sco z unk    Scotland

Of course there are L165+ guys in Sweden too and Ethnoancestry has called L165 a "Norse" marker.

So, is Antuñano on the pre-L165 branch of L176.2?

... and what secret could this unlock?  Well if L165+ is truly Nordic perhaps Antuñano's lineage was once too. Could it be the Visigoths that provided some R-P312* and R-Z196 (including L176.2*, SRY2627 and M153) into the Basque population?

SRY2627's highest frequency is in Catalonia.

Wikipedia on Catalonia:
Quote
The territory that now constitutes the autonomous community of Catalonia in Spain, and the adjoining Catalan region of France, was first settled during the Middle Palaeolithic. Like the rest of the Mediterranean coast of the Iberian Peninsula, it was colonized by Ancient Greeks and Carthaginians and participated in the pre-Roman Iberian culture. With the rest of Hispania, it was part of the Roman Empire, then came under Visigothic rule after Rome's collapse. The northernmost part of Catalonia was briefly occupied by the Moorish (Muslim-ruled) al-Andalus in the VIII century, but after the defeat of Emir Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqiwas's troops at Tours in 732 local Visigoths regained autonomy, though they voluntarily made themselves tributary to the emerging Frankish kingdom, which gave the grouping of these local powers the  name Marca Hispanica or Spanish March.

Didn't the Visigoths have to retreat to the mountains during Moorish rule?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 12:05:38 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2011, 01:44:07 PM »

There is. in fact, a population in the Basque Country the so called "Agotes" or "Cagots", that are supposed by some to be descendants of Visigothic refugees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cagot

However there is plenty of evidence that Visigoths retired mainly to Asturias, not the Basque Country (Then Duché of Vasconie, an old enemy of the Visigoths. If you are looking for a Visigothic footprint it should be there, or maybe in the province of Segovia, where the Visigoths settled in greater numbers. Some nazi anthropologists claimed they could see traces of German ancentry in the population of Segovia.
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MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2011, 01:44:43 PM »

....
Of course there are L165+ guys in Sweden too and Ethnoancestry has called L165 a "Norse" marker.

So, is Antuñano on the pre-L165 branch of L176.2?

... and what secret could this unlock?  Well if L165+ is truly Nordic perhaps Antuñano's lineage was once too. Could it be the Visigoths that provided some R-P312* and R-Z196 (including L176.2*, SRY2627 and M153) into the Basque population?
I'll argue against myself here. The variance of SRY2627 is high in Iberia and it's spread widely there so it seems they would have gotten there earlier than the Visigoths.

Actually this whole discussion is a parallel where U198-England-Anglo-Saxon is akin to SRY2627-Spain-Visigoth.... perhaps even similar timeframes except U198 is probably older than SRY2627.   SRY2627 is found in Germany too!
If all U198 in England is of historic period Anglo-Saxon input then all SRY2627 in Iberia could well have been Visigoth.

That allows me to throw two cats with the same flock of pigeons, or is it the same cat into two different flocks of pigeons?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 10:00:14 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2011, 02:04:49 PM »

I wonder about the whole L165 connection to Scandinavia. I know of only one L165+ Scandinavian. The rest are all Brits or Americans with British surnames. Perhaps Dr. Wilson has more Scandinavian L165 data, but my impression from the recent Moffat and Wilson book, The Scots: A Genetic Journey, is that the connection was based on the single Swede (who tested with Ethnoancestry) and the supposed Norse etymology of the surname MacLeod. If that's right, it seems a thin reed upon which to rest a Scandinavian origin for L165.

My suspicion is that L165 is probably not Scandinavian in origin. L238 probably is, but not L165.

Of course, I could be wrong.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 02:05:24 PM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2011, 05:12:08 PM »

I wonder about the whole L165 connection to Scandinavia. I know of only one L165+ Scandinavian. The rest are all Brits or Americans with British surnames. Perhaps Dr. Wilson has more Scandinavian L165 data, but my impression from the recent Moffat and Wilson book, The Scots: A Genetic Journey, is that the connection was based on the single Swede (who tested with Ethnoancestry) and the supposed Norse etymology of the surname MacLeod. If that's right, it seems a thin reed upon which to rest a Scandinavian origin for L165.

My suspicion is that L165 is probably not Scandinavian in origin. L238 probably is, but not L165.

Of course, I could be wrong.

I agree to the extent that an exclusive Scandinavian connection to L165 seems premature, unless Dr. Wilson knows more than we do. He certainly has access to data that the rest of us don't have. It seems quite likely though to be a primarily northern European subclade of P312.

As to L238, I have no doubt whatsoever that it is concentrated in Scandinavia. I wouldn't however rule out the possibility that it exists in small numbers in other parts of Europe, which is something I have been meaning to investigate if I ever get some free time. I also believe there is an as yet undiscovered SNP (or two) between P312 and L238, much as Z196 was found to be between P312 and SRY2622 and L21 between P312 and M222.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2011, 10:02:54 AM »

I wonder about the whole L165 connection to Scandinavia. I know of only one L165+ Scandinavian. The rest are all Brits or Americans with British surnames. Perhaps Dr. Wilson has more Scandinavian L165 data, but my impression from the recent Moffat and Wilson book, The Scots: A Genetic Journey, is that the connection was based on the single Swede (who tested with Ethnoancestry) and the supposed Norse etymology of the surname MacLeod. If that's right, it seems a thin reed upon which to rest a Scandinavian origin for L165.

My suspicion is that L165 is probably not Scandinavian in origin. L238 probably is, but not L165.

Of course, I could be wrong.

I agree to the extent that an exclusive Scandinavian connection to L165 seems premature, unless Dr. Wilson knows more than we do. He certainly has access to data that the rest of us don't have. It seems quite likely though to be a primarily northern European subclade of P312.

As to L238, I have no doubt whatsoever that it is concentrated in Scandinavia. I wouldn't however rule out the possibility that it exists in small numbers in other parts of Europe, which is something I have been meaning to investigate if I ever get some free time. I also believe there is an as yet undiscovered SNP (or two) between P312 and L238, much as Z196 was found to be between P312 and SRY2622 and L21 between P312 and M222.

I'm going to vote with Dr. Wilson on this just because I can't believe he'd make the association on just one L165 Swede.....   of course, I've been appalled before at what academics and scientists will do.

I think that L165's brothers, L176.2+ SRY2627- folks, might provide some clues. Here they are. They don't necessarily look Celtic by any means, so what are they?

f189361   Kedves   Hungary, Heves, Szentdomokos
fN40082   zzzUnkName   Ukraine
f10487   Slugodzki   Ukraine, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast, Ottynia
f155018   Antuñano   Spain, Basque Country, Vizcaya, Valmaseda
f193141   Mas   Spain, Catalonia, Sant Sadurní de l'Heura, Monells
f169843   Grouazel   France, Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Saint-Milo
f69443   Sarrazin   France, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, Haute-Alpes, Chauffayer
f155600   Giroud-Billioud   France, Rhône-Alpes, Isère, Grenoble
f131195   Larabee   France
f192738   zzzUnkName   France
f86995   Pleis   Germany, Lower Saxony, Hanover
f108105   Garcia   Portugal, Tabua, Vale da Gaios, Vale de Candeeiros
fN3980   Gimenez   Spain, Valencia, Cofrentes
f143139   Lyon   England, East, Suffolk
f107408   Roby   England, East Midlands, Leicestershire, Castle Donington
f41647   Miller   England, North East, Durham, Sunderland
f163136   Ayton   England, Yorkshire and Humber, North Yorkshire, Scarborough, West Ayton
f44638   Brooks   England
f35217   Chapman   England
f147862   Tubbs   England
f174435   Crandall   John Crandall, b.1612, Westerly, Rhode Island, USA (England)
f171839   Noble   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Belfast
fN23705   Noble   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Fermanagh, Maguiresbridge
f167763   Turnbull   Scotland
f45730   Brunelle   zzzUnkOrigin
f64381   Chancey   zzzUnkOrigin
fN22555   Deutsch   zzzUnkOrigin
f174609   Lyons   zzzUnkOrigin
f185015   Ramirez   zzzUnkOrigin


Yes, L165 brother SRY2627 is found in Iberia and the west and south of France, but a lot of people don't realize SRY2627's extent east and north of France:

y93E2A   Spriano   Italy, Piedmont
fE10868   Alberti   Italy, Veneto, Vicenza, Foza
fN77509   Bergey   Switzerland
fN71305   Florin   Switzerland (French)
fN22590   Bürgi   Switzerland, Bern, Bern-Mittelland, Biglen
fN74352   De Langre   France, Burgundy, Yonne, Avallon
f139944   Bender   Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate, Bad Kreuznach, Laubenheim
f123844   Backes   Germany, Saarland, Bliesen
f29105   Trautvetter   Germany, Saxony
f21767   Heffter   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Ortenau, Renchen/Rust
f153374   Ankele   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Württemberg
y64JUT   Heldenbrand   Germany
f144761   Keller   Germany
f81253   Knoll   Germany
f139842   Koch   Germany
yHN4NX   Kranz   Germany
ySNMFM   List   Germany
yYPXDZ   Roush   Germany
fzVern01   Rutzky   Germany
fN31085   Johnson   Sweden
fN24300   Ohlsson(Blekinge-Lan)   Sweden, Blekinge län, Blekinge
f157109   Madsen   Denmark, Odense Amt, Allerup
yJFGYS   Olsen(Østfold)   Norway, Østlandet, Østfold


L165's Z196* cousins, the North-South cluster, does not have all that different of a distribution.

All of this is part of why I can believe Wilson on this one.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 10:24:10 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2011, 12:44:49 PM »

I was aware of the ubiquity of Z196 and SRY2627, but I just haven't seen that much of a Scandinavian side to the apparently much more restricted L165 clade.

Like I said before, maybe Dr. Wilson has Scandinavian data we don't know about. If so, we may start to see a reflection of it when and if FTDNA adds L165 to its Deep Clade and more Scandinavians get tested for it.

Right now, though, I have the suspicion that L165 is kind of the reverse of L238.

I could be wrong, and if the data eventually show that, fine.

By the way, as I recall, Ethnoancestry was advertising "S68" (L165) as probably Scandinavian back when Beall and Hammer were the only known positives.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 12:50:12 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2011, 04:52:58 PM »

... By the way, as I recall, Ethnoancestry was advertising "S68" (L165) as probably Scandinavian back when Beall and Hammer were the only known positives.
That's part of why I think probably do have more data that we are aware of. If not, I would be more than appalled.

Announcement email from Ethnoancestry is cited here:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/CORBIN-DNA/2007-05/1180010882

The L165 project admins cite this article by Alistair Moffat and Dr Jim Wilson
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/features/Scotland39s-DNA-Who-do-you.6727434.jp
Quote
Theirs is a recently discovered sub-group labelled S68. It is found in Lewis, Harris and Skye, core Macleod territory, but also in Orkney, Shetland and Norway, with a few examples in Sweden. Despite extensive screening, S68 is very specifically located, showing up only once in the east of Scotland and once in England. This is a classic pattern for a Viking marker in Britain, but one much rarer than M17. MacLeods determinedly claim descent from a common name father, a Norse aristocrat called Ljot, a relative of Olaf, King of Man. They are probably right to continue to claim that – science for once supporting tradition.

Ethnoancestry supposedly has additional results from Norway and a "few" from Sweden.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 04:54:03 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2011, 05:41:41 PM »

That definitely sounds like they have more Scandinavian L165/S68 data than we knew about. Good for them. Nice to think there may be two Scandinavian P312-derived clades.
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« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2011, 07:12:58 PM »

All I can say is that I know Dr. Wilson has done private sampling in Norway for which he hasn't released the results. I have no idea how extensive it is.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2011, 02:26:37 PM »

I wonder about the whole L165 connection to Scandinavia. I know of only one L165+ Scandinavian. The rest are all Brits or Americans with British surnames. Perhaps Dr. Wilson has more Scandinavian L165 data, but my impression from the recent Moffat and Wilson book, The Scots: A Genetic Journey, is that the connection was based on the single Swede (who tested with Ethnoancestry) and the supposed Norse etymology of the surname MacLeod. If that's right, it seems a thin reed upon which to rest a Scandinavian origin for L165.

My suspicion is that L165 is probably not Scandinavian in origin. L238 probably is, but not L165.

Of course, I could be wrong.

I agree to the extent that an exclusive Scandinavian connection to L165 seems premature, unless Dr. Wilson knows more than we do. He certainly has access to data that the rest of us don't have. It seems quite likely though to be a primarily northern European subclade of P312.

As to L238, I have no doubt whatsoever that it is concentrated in Scandinavia. I wouldn't however rule out the possibility that it exists in small numbers in other parts of Europe, which is something I have been meaning to investigate if I ever get some free time. I also believe there is an as yet undiscovered SNP (or two) between P312 and L238, much as Z196 was found to be between P312 and SRY2622 and L21 between P312 and M222.

I'm going to vote with Dr. Wilson on this just because I can't believe he'd make the association on just one L165 Swede.....   of course, I've been appalled before at what academics and scientists will do.

I think that L165's brothers, L176.2+ SRY2627- folks, might provide some clues. Here they are. They don't necessarily look Celtic by any means, so what are they?

f189361   Kedves   Hungary, Heves, Szentdomokos
fN40082   zzzUnkName   Ukraine
f10487   Slugodzki   Ukraine, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast, Ottynia
f155018   Antuñano   Spain, Basque Country, Vizcaya, Valmaseda
f193141   Mas   Spain, Catalonia, Sant Sadurní de l'Heura, Monells
f169843   Grouazel   France, Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Saint-Milo
f69443   Sarrazin   France, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, Haute-Alpes, Chauffayer
f155600   Giroud-Billioud   France, Rhône-Alpes, Isère, Grenoble
f131195   Larabee   France
f192738   zzzUnkName   France
f86995   Pleis   Germany, Lower Saxony, Hanover
f108105   Garcia   Portugal, Tabua, Vale da Gaios, Vale de Candeeiros
fN3980   Gimenez   Spain, Valencia, Cofrentes
f143139   Lyon   England, East, Suffolk
f107408   Roby   England, East Midlands, Leicestershire, Castle Donington
f41647   Miller   England, North East, Durham, Sunderland
f163136   Ayton   England, Yorkshire and Humber, North Yorkshire, Scarborough, West Ayton
f44638   Brooks   England
f35217   Chapman   England
f147862   Tubbs   England
f174435   Crandall   John Crandall, b.1612, Westerly, Rhode Island, USA (England)
f171839   Noble   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Belfast
fN23705   Noble   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Fermanagh, Maguiresbridge
f167763   Turnbull   Scotland
f45730   Brunelle   zzzUnkOrigin
f64381   Chancey   zzzUnkOrigin
fN22555   Deutsch   zzzUnkOrigin
f174609   Lyons   zzzUnkOrigin
f185015   Ramirez   zzzUnkOrigin


Yes, L165 brother SRY2627 is found in Iberia and the west and south of France, but a lot of people don't realize SRY2627's extent east and north of France:

y93E2A   Spriano   Italy, Piedmont
fE10868   Alberti   Italy, Veneto, Vicenza, Foza
fN77509   Bergey   Switzerland
fN71305   Florin   Switzerland (French)
fN22590   Bürgi   Switzerland, Bern, Bern-Mittelland, Biglen
fN74352   De Langre   France, Burgundy, Yonne, Avallon
f139944   Bender   Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate, Bad Kreuznach, Laubenheim
f123844   Backes   Germany, Saarland, Bliesen
f29105   Trautvetter   Germany, Saxony
f21767   Heffter   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Ortenau, Renchen/Rust
f153374   Ankele   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Württemberg
y64JUT   Heldenbrand   Germany
f144761   Keller   Germany
f81253   Knoll   Germany
f139842   Koch   Germany
yHN4NX   Kranz   Germany
ySNMFM   List   Germany
yYPXDZ   Roush   Germany
fzVern01   Rutzky   Germany
fN31085   Johnson   Sweden
fN24300   Ohlsson(Blekinge-Lan)   Sweden, Blekinge län, Blekinge
f157109   Madsen   Denmark, Odense Amt, Allerup
yJFGYS   Olsen(Østfold)   Norway, Østlandet, Østfold


L165's Z196* cousins, the North-South cluster, does not have all that different of a distribution.

All of this is part of why I can believe Wilson on this one.


Would be a great name for a pub 'The Cat and Pigeon'.  

That L176.5* group has a mind boggling mixturel. Seems that it has both east-central  European and a vaguely south or west French/Iberian group too with not a huge amount in between.  Maybe it is that jump between eastern Europe and the south-west that some think is behind the origin of beaker. Maybe its the best evidence tracking such a move.  Maybe the Z196* north-south cluster is also somehow tracking something else of the move to Iberia or perhaps from it.

Sry 2627 outside Iberia as listed above has a vaguely Upper Rhine/Rhone/Alps vibe about it.  Perhaps its spread along the Med from Iberia then up the Rhone to the upper Rhine with some continuing along the Med. to Italy or maybe some other variation. 

All of these are a bit exciting if they are preserving something of the movements in or out of the early beaker area of Iberia and adjacent.  How this ties in with U152 and L21 is hard to say .  Maybe the P312 lines searched out different areas with the Z196 groups homing on the metal wealth of Iberia and southern France while a U152-rich group explored the Alps and another L21-rich group explored the NW of France and the Atlantic parts of the isles.  

While some interpret the whole beaker thing is an out of Iberia it could be that all those areas were accessed from some undiscovered intermediate source around the same period.  I tend to think that the length of the Rhone is geographically in a very good position to access all the main beaker areas (and also the p312 block) as it accesses the Med, the whole of France and the Upper Rhine (then Danube areas).  That of course fits OK with variance.  There are a lot of possible permutations and I dont think we will be able to conclude for some time.  Its noticeable that all of these areas are places where the land is not the best quality but they are rocky areas known for copper/gold/silver/tin ore sources.  

What fascinates me is the bigger picture.  If p312 (and maybe L11 as a whole?) is the mark of the beaker culture then the routes of beaker culture may be indicated by L51, L23.  That makes we wonder what pre-beaker archaeological cultures with an interest in metalworking corresponds with the distrubution of L51, L23 etc.  It seems likely it is east or south-east European with deeper roots even further east/south-east.   I havent seen really useful maps of L51 and L23 in Europe.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 02:35:22 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2011, 07:46:02 PM »

Raymond Keogh, native of Dublin and still living there, is also L176.2. He's a member of the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project.
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