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rms2
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« on: October 20, 2011, 07:12:53 PM »

We have an unusual result this evening. As far as I know, this is the first L21+ guy who has gotten an L459- result: Bonham, kit 92311, Ysearch M2J8N.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2011, 08:09:55 PM »

We have an unusual result this evening. As far as I know, this is the first L21+ guy who has gotten an L459- result: Bonham, kit 92311, Ysearch M2J8N.

That's what it says. What does it mean?
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Jdean
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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2011, 08:25:24 PM »

We have an unusual result this evening. As far as I know, this is the first L21+ guy who has gotten an L459- result: Bonham, kit 92311, Ysearch M2J8N.

Wow !!!

I was beginning to think we wouldn't see one of these, or an L21- L459+ for that matter.

Guess we can stop bemoaning the lack of testing for this one with P312* folks

The name Bonham sounds like it could have a French derivation, 'The good man' ? but it had a hotspot in the 1881 census in central England around Alyesbury.

I suppose that make me R-L459* now :)

I wounder if this chap is considering Z245 ?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 08:26:57 PM by Jdean » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2011, 08:30:50 PM »

We have an unusual result this evening. As far as I know, this is the first L21+ guy who has gotten an L459- result: Bonham, kit 92311, Ysearch M2J8N.

That's what it says. What does it mean?

Well, up until today, all the L21+ guys  who have tested for L459 - and there have been quite a few - have been L459+.

This is the first L21+ L459- result I know of.

It might mean a number of things, if it's not an error. For one thing, it means L459 and L21 are not equivalent. It also apparently means L459 is downstream of L21 and not the other way around.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 08:34:17 PM by rms2 » Logged

seferhabahir
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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2011, 08:39:43 PM »

We have an unusual result this evening. As far as I know, this is the first L21+ guy who has gotten an L459- result: Bonham, kit 92311, Ysearch M2J8N.

That's what it says. What does it mean?

Well, up until today, all the L21+ guys  who have tested for L459 - and there have been quite a few - have been L459+.

This is the first L21+ L459- result I know of.

It might mean a number of things, if it's not an error. For one thing, it means L459 and L21 are not equivalent. It also apparently means L459 is downstream of L21 and not the other way around.

If correct, then it will surely mess up all the long tree naming conventions again, because it looks like its upstream of everything else.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

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cmblandford
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2011, 08:40:57 PM »

Quote
I wonder if this chap is considering Z245 ?

ASAP
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Earliest Known Ancestor:  Thomas Blanford; Dorset, England; born 1648


OConnor
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2011, 09:57:56 PM »

could it be a different mutation change event? or a back-mutation of some sort?
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2011, 10:46:27 PM »

We have an unusual result this evening. As far as I know, this is the first L21+ guy who has gotten an L459- result: Bonham, kit 92311, Ysearch M2J8N.
So it looks like we are all mostly R-L459 guys now.  Only Bonham can prove he is R-L21*.
It would mean he is the only true possessor of R1b1a2a1b4.  The rest of us will start, whenever FTDNA updates the haplotree, getting an "a" I suppose after the 4.

Now there is a very good reason to test for L459.
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jerome72
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« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2011, 02:26:20 PM »

92311 Nicholas Bonham, b.c. 1631

Maybe, It's him:
http://gw4.geneanet.org/mkfarkus?b=mkfarkus&lang=en&p=nicholas&n=bonham

The most ancien ancestor:
http://gw4.geneanet.org/mkfarkus?lang=en;p=thomas;n=bonham
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2011, 03:09:37 PM »

The name Bonham sounds like it could have a French derivation, 'The good man' ? but it had a hotspot in the 1881 census in central England around Alyesbury.
Why Bonham (M2J8N) would be a French? He matches closely Morley (MEH5G) and French, like their President, have of French pretty always neither the surname nor the Y.
If R-L21+/L459- is the most ancient of this haplogroup, don’t search in France.
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rms2
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« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2011, 08:15:03 PM »

I think Jdean was thinking of the similarity of Bonham and Bonhomme.
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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2011, 08:17:23 PM »

I wonder if our Bonham is related to John Bonham, whom I saw live with his famous band at Kezar Stadium in San Francisco in June of 1973. Great show.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 08:21:13 PM by rms2 » Logged

seferhabahir
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2011, 12:01:29 AM »

I wonder if our Bonham is related to John Bonham, whom I saw live with his famous band at Kezar Stadium in San Francisco in June of 1973. Great show.

Saw Bonham (and his somewhat more famous bandmates) at Winterland in November 1969. Got there kind of late, and had to sit almost in the last row way up at the top on the right of the stage. Bad view, but great place for a contact high. Surprised I can still remember the evening.
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2011, 10:40:36 AM »

The name Bonham sounds like it could have a French derivation, 'The good man' ? but it had a hotspot in the 1881 census in central England around Alyesbury.
Why Bonham (M2J8N) would be a French? He matches closely Morley (MEH5G) and French, like their President, have of French pretty always neither the surname nor the Y.
If R-L21+/L459- is the most ancient of this haplogroup, don’t search in France.

Bonham is using the blogger handle "de Bonham" so I asked if he thought his surname origin was French or Spanish. He replied that he and his 66/67 match Bonham are both with MDKA's blocked in the US, one in Massachusetts and the other in New Jersey, both in the 1600's.
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2011, 10:50:59 AM »

I almost hate to say it, but from a project standpoint it seems like one course of action might be to have the 66/67 Bonham match test for L459 and confirm the L459-. Then make a push to test for L459 among continental L21* folks.

If we found a concentration of L21+ L459- people somewhere that might be important.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 10:51:32 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2011, 11:04:50 AM »

I wanted to say this: Bonham ( but there is also Bonhan explained with Gaelic who matches him) is probably of Norman origin (“English: nickname from Old French bon homme (Latin bonus homo). This had two senses relevant to surname formation; partly it had the literal meaning ‘good man’, and partly it came to mean ‘peasant farmer’. Americanized form of French Bonhomme”), but Normans were “Northmen”, then their Y should be linked to Scandinavians than to French. This is against my theories, but we are seeing that North Europe had from ancient times R-P312* and some subclades, and it isn’t said that R-L21 doesn’t come more from North than from South. Of course they can be arrived to North from South after the Glaciation or with the expansion from Spain if they descend from the Italian Agriculturalists of the Cardial/Impressa of 7500YBP, but all this should be demonstrated by some aDNA.
Of course others may think to a diffusion from East Europe or from Central Europe, but also this should be demonstrated by some aDNA.


« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 11:06:48 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2011, 11:14:09 AM »

I wanted to say this: Bonham ( but there is also Bonhan explained with Gaelic who matches him) is probably of Norman origin (“English: nickname from Old French bon homme (Latin bonus homo). This had two senses relevant to surname formation; partly it had the literal meaning ‘good man’, and partly it came to mean ‘peasant farmer’. Americanized form of French Bonhomme”), but Normans were “Northmen”, then their Y should be linked to Scandinavians than to French. This is against my theories, but we are seeing that North Europe had from ancient times R-P312* and some subclades, and it isn’t said that R-L21 doesn’t come more from North than from South. Of course they can be arrived to North from South after the Glaciation or with the expansion from Spain if they descend from the Italian Agriculturalists of the Cardial/Impressa of 7500YBP, but all this should be demonstrated by some aDNA.
Of course others may think to a diffusion from East Europe or from Central Europe, but also this should be demonstrated by some aDNA.




Thus far, from what I have seen, Normandy is mostly R-L21. The "Northmen" seem to have been pretty sparse on the ground there. I think there was a thin veneer of Viking elites who didn't last long and whose y-lines - I'm guessing - may have, to a large extent, daughtered out.

There certainly weren't enough of them to impose their language on the natives.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2011, 11:16:28 AM »

It seems that these R-L459- haven't a characterized cluster for being at the origin of this haplogroup. Certainly those Italians like Argiedude or Soncina, if he belongs to this haplogroup with his DYS450=10, seem to have more variance. But I am the theorist of the mutations around the modal and this fact may demonstrate nothing.
The characteristics of this haplotype are only DYS439=11 and DYS447=24: very few for being a very ancient haplotype.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 11:26:30 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2011, 11:21:25 AM »

Normans didn't impose their language because they married French women, but I have been more surprised in having found my wife (100% Sicilian) a K1c1* (16179T) linked certainly with Normans and I don't understand how Sicilians could have Norman mt if they were married and descendants of French women.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 11:27:07 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2011, 11:28:27 AM »

Normans didn't impose their language because they married French women, but I have been more surprised in having found my wife (100% Sicilian) a K1c1* (16179T) linked certainly with Normans and I don't understand how Sicilians could have Norman mt if they were married and descendants of French women.

I also think they did not impose their language because there weren't that many of them, which also seems to be born out by dna testing.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2011, 11:38:52 AM »

We know that Icelandics descend from Scandinavian men and Celtic woman of Britannia. I don't have at hands their Y, but probably it could give us an answer about this.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2011, 11:41:36 AM »

What I mean is that Normandy doesn't seem to have that much Scandinavian y-dna. It seems to be low in I1, R1a and R-U106. It seems to be much higher in R-L21, R-P312* and a little R-U152.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2011, 11:43:32 AM »

It seems that these R-L459- haven't a characterized cluster for being at the origin of this haplogroup. Certainly those Italians like Argiedude or Soncina, if he belongs to this haplogroup with his DYS450=10, seem to have more variance. But I am the theorist of the mutations around the modal and this fact may demonstrate nothing.
The characteristics of this haplotype are only DYS439=11 and DYS447=24: very few for being a very ancient haplotype.

Of course this demonstrates that the Bonham/Bonhan haplotype is recent and due to a single man and it could have had these mutations around the modal. It would be interesting to test Argiedude and Soncina (if he belongs to this haplogroup) for L459. If they was L459- everything would be clear.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2011, 11:49:37 AM »

Then if Bonham was a Norman of French Y, we should find many R-L459- in France. Next tests will answer this.

But it could be true also that this Y, being a singular one and very rare, being at the origin of the haplogroup, could have survived in Scandinavia more than in France and this Bonham to be a true Norman with this rare R-L21/L459-.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 11:53:03 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2011, 11:50:49 AM »

I wonder if our Bonham is related to John Bonham, whom I saw live with his famous band at Kezar Stadium in San Francisco in June of 1973. Great show.

Kezar Stadium!!! I'm a native San Franciscan and I loved Kezar Stadium!! We talk about it all the time on our Facebook "Sunset District People" group. It been almost completely torn down now, they saved the east and west entrances I think. I can't even look when I drive by...

I used to take the bus to 49er games when I was a kid and our High School football games were held there. In "The City" we called it the world's largest outdoor bar. There was some big hippie concert there on a Saturday and for some reason Willie Mays was there... when they anounced him the full crowd of drunk, drugged up people (myself included) stood and cheered for at least five minutes.... it was great!

Park Station, Park Emergency, Stanyan St., The Haight, Poly High School, UC on the hill...  Kezar Stadium lives in the heart of native San Franciscans.

Thanks for the memories...
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