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Author Topic: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226  (Read 42038 times)
rms2
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« Reply #250 on: August 05, 2012, 05:37:41 PM »

Man, I wish these test results came in faster!

That is one huge negative about this hobby: the waiting.

Guess, I should just forget about it for now. It'll come when it comes.
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Warrior1
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« Reply #251 on: August 05, 2012, 05:44:35 PM »

Man, I wish these test results came in faster!

That is one huge negative about this hobby: the waiting.

Guess, I should just forget about it for now. It'll come when it comes.

Me too, I check dozens of times a day because I never get the email notifications, for other than large tests like the mtDNA but for snps an as the STRs finish I don't get any emails about it....I've been waiting for L1066 since June 27th..Come on guys, get to work...please??
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rms2
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« Reply #252 on: August 05, 2012, 06:23:27 PM »

Man, I wish these test results came in faster!

That is one huge negative about this hobby: the waiting.

Guess, I should just forget about it for now. It'll come when it comes.

Me too, I check dozens of times a day because I never get the email notifications, for other than large tests like the mtDNA but for snps an as the STRs finish I don't get any emails about it....I've been waiting for L1066 since June 27th..Come on guys, get to work...please??


FTDNA doesn't generally send emails for individual SNP test results. All you can do is keep checking the top of your Haplotree page.

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rms2
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« Reply #253 on: August 10, 2012, 12:19:24 AM »

Well, woe is me, I am Z253-.

Sigh . . .

Guess I'll be spending some more money soon chasing down another downstream SNP.
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Warrior1
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« Reply #254 on: August 10, 2012, 12:51:39 AM »

Well, woe is me, I am Z253-.

Sigh . . .

Guess I'll be spending some more money soon chasing down another downstream SNP.
Well, I'm glad you got your results. I just received mine as well, L1066+. Now I'm stuck at another wall but with only a handful of other gentlemen, all of the Irish persuasion thus far. I shouldn't be though, I believe I trace back to Scotland so we'll see what the next SNP is that comes along...

Cheers.
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rms2
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« Reply #255 on: August 10, 2012, 01:05:42 AM »

Well, woe is me, I am Z253-.

Sigh . . .

Guess I'll be spending some more money soon chasing down another downstream SNP.
Well, I'm glad you got your results. I just received mine as well, L1066+. Now I'm stuck at another wall but with only a handful of other gentlemen, all of the Irish persuasion thus far. I shouldn't be though, I believe I trace back to Scotland so we'll see what the next SNP is that comes along...

Cheers.

There's an L1066+ category at the R-L21 Plus Project now. You're probably in it.
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Warrior1
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« Reply #256 on: August 10, 2012, 01:09:29 AM »

 Yes sir, I am there now and I would imagine the Z253 project will update soon as well.

I wish you well in your journey.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #257 on: August 23, 2012, 08:13:30 AM »

Z253 just picked up another Norwegian this morning: Meringdal, MDKA from Oppland, Norway.

He has a close match with another man of Norwegian ancestry (Skeie, Hordaland) that will also most likely test Z253+.

It's strange how I recruited Meringdal for testing because his close match (Skeie) is a 67 marker match with a Z255+ Beattie in the Z255 Project. I initially thought Meringdal might be Z255+, but he tested negative for it.

I checked out the Z253 Project and noticed that many guys share some modal values common in Z255 - DYS442 = 11, DYS557 = 17, etc. Any thoughts on this?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 08:17:10 AM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



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« Reply #258 on: August 23, 2012, 08:24:02 PM »

Z253 just picked up another Norwegian this morning: Meringdal, MDKA from Oppland, Norway.

He has a close match with another man of Norwegian ancestry (Skeie, Hordaland) that will also most likely test Z253+.

It's strange how I recruited Meringdal for testing because his close match (Skeie) is a 67 marker match with a Z255+ Beattie in the Z255 Project. I initially thought Meringdal might be Z255+, but he tested negative for it.

I checked out the Z253 Project and noticed that many guys share some modal values common in Z255 - DYS442 = 11, DYS557 = 17, etc. Any thoughts on this?

This is just more evidence that Z253 is quite old. We can't come up with an STR pattern or set of patterns that has encompassed it yet.  It also stretches from Iberia to Scandinavia.
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hoxgi
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« Reply #259 on: August 24, 2012, 01:59:46 AM »

Re Z253 and Z255 - I recall that Mike's interclade calculations indicated that these two SNPs had a common ancestor more recently than any of the other L21 subclades. Perhaps a few of the off-modal STrs common to these two SNPs pre-date the SNPs themselves.
Re Meringdal - his STR pattern is very different from the other Z253+ person in the Z253 Project from Norway (Falch).  I think that Meringdal should test for L1066 on the basis of his STR results.
Re L1066 - we have just had an L1066+ result in Goff B2394, who is a member of the Irish Type IV group.  So it looks like L1066 just became much larger. Goff has the closest GD and greatest number of common off-modal STRs of any Irish Type IV person to the L1066 Brady/Burns variety, so I think I'll ask another Irish Type IV person to test for L1066 as well, just to be sure.
Greg
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #260 on: August 24, 2012, 12:50:19 PM »

... Re L1066 - we have just had an L1066+ result in Goff B2394, who is a member of the Irish Type IV group.  So it looks like L1066 just became much larger. Goff has the closest GD and greatest number of common off-modal STRs of any Irish Type IV person to the L1066 Brady/Burns variety, so I think I'll ask another Irish Type IV person to test for L1066 as well, just to be sure.

This is pretty cool that the 1310-T4 (Irish IV/Cont) guys now have an SNP than their own, and I like the fact that it is a little broader that the STR pattern. This might help us understand the subclade's origin and migration.
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hoxgi
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« Reply #261 on: August 24, 2012, 07:26:53 PM »

Yes, it's good news for Irish Type IV. Another two of them have just ordered L1066 tests, which should confirm Goff's results.
So we now have eight L1066+ persons in the Z253 Project (and another eleven L1066 tests ordered), plus the original two L1066+ results in the 1000 Genomes Project, one of whom has Iberian ancestry.
There are two Z253+ persons of French or Scandinavian ancestry who look promising candidates for L1066: Le Bras N56523 and Olsen 21595. They both have 385b=15 and 449=29. I'll see if would be willing to test. It would be interesting if L1066 has a presence right along the European coast as well.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #262 on: September 07, 2012, 11:56:08 AM »

Yes, it's good news for Irish Type IV. Another two of them have just ordered L1066 tests, which should confirm Goff's results.
So we now have eight L1066+ persons in the Z253 Project (and another eleven L1066 tests ordered), plus the original two L1066+ results in the 1000 Genomes Project, one of whom has Iberian ancestry.
There are two Z253+ persons of French or Scandinavian ancestry who look promising candidates for L1066: Le Bras N56523 and Olsen 21595. They both have 385b=15 and 449=29. I'll see if would be willing to test. It would be interesting if L1066 has a presence right along the European coast as well.

What do you think of Shields?  We have some evidence that the mutation 426=13 occurred relatively recently for Irish IV people.

We have this fellow who is L1066+
f87470   Shields   R-L21/DF13/Z253/L1066 426=12 and not quite Irish IV

One of his two closest GD's in the L21 file is this person who is a clear Irish IV person
fN21843   Kennedy   R-L21  426=13 and Irish IV

Their GD is 10 at 67.

What does this mean?  I don't know, but one speculation could be that L1066+ 426=13 people expanded relatively recently, like 1500 years ago.  Since they are widely scattered across the Isles and the Continent you can start trying to align with historical movements.

On the other hand, even though it is very slow, maybe the Shields lineage had a back mutation to 426=12.  L1066 testing and 111 testing of Irish IV and almost Irish IV people could be very helpful.
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« Reply #263 on: October 13, 2012, 03:52:10 PM »

Z253 has just expanded. An L643 person was found to be Z253+. Thank you, exploratory testers.

This is the STR signature that seems to fit L643.
253-643: 572<=10 389ii-i=17 442<=11 {L643}

I can't say they are all L643 and more testing needs to occur:
f40717   MacKenzie   R1b-L21>DF13>Z253   253-643   Z253+ L643+ L226-
f57521   Matheson    R1b-L21>DF13   253-643   DF13+ L643+
fN1851   Orem   R1b-L21>DF13   253-643   DF13+ L643+ L513- DF21- L144- L371- L555- L96- L130- L195- L319.1- L526- L557- L580- L583- L679-

See how MacKenzie and Orem are both L643+ and MacKenzie is Z253+ and he is L226-.

Has an L643 person tested for L1066?
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« Reply #264 on: October 13, 2012, 05:24:34 PM »

Z253 has just expanded. An L643 person was found to be Z253+. Thank you, exploratory testers.

This is the STR signature that seems to fit L643.
253-643: 572<=10 389ii-i=17 442<=11 {L643}

I can't say they are all L643 and more testing needs to occur:
f40717   MacKenzie   R1b-L21>DF13>Z253   253-643   Z253+ L643+ L226-
f57521   Matheson    R1b-L21>DF13   253-643   DF13+ L643+
fN1851   Orem   R1b-L21>DF13   253-643   DF13+ L643+ L513- DF21- L144- L371- L555- L96- L130- L195- L319.1- L526- L557- L580- L583- L679-

See how MacKenzie and Orem are both L643+ and MacKenzie is Z253+ and he is L226-.

Has an L643 person tested for L1066?

It looks like Z2185 is about ready to insert itself on the Z253 tree.
Quote from: David Reynolds
Once the Z2185 result for Robert Brooks Casey (L226+) is back, assuming it is
Z2185-, we will be able to add Z2185 at at peer level to L554 and L226, with
L1066 moving under Z2185.

After that, the expectation is to add L643 at a peer level to L554, L226, and
Z2185. For that, we are waiting on the Matheson & Hockings tests that Connie
mentioned below.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/message/12052
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« Reply #265 on: October 13, 2012, 05:30:47 PM »

Is L643 between DF13 and Z253 or downstream of Z253?
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rms2
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« Reply #266 on: October 13, 2012, 05:52:11 PM »

Is L643 between DF13 and Z253 or downstream of Z253?

Never mind. I see there is a Z253+ guy who is L643-, so L643 must be downstream of Z253.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #267 on: October 16, 2012, 11:07:02 AM »

Interesting England majority results of:

R1b-L21>DF13>Z253**

f162176   Falch(Ølfernes) Norway
fN85107   Hockings England
f63623   Dredge England
f212724   Yorke   Ireland  IS Ire Ulster

111(94) Markers   Sheet  Mutation Rate: 0.22894
STRs not used: 385,389i,459,464,CDY,YCAII,395S1 & 413

L21 ALL (111Markers)  
YrsPerGen*  Count
30   N=1048

Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  Max  VAR  

SD
114.6   32.1  3,438.8  963.5  4,402.3  12.738  3.569


R1b-L21>DF13>Z253**  
YrsPerGen*  Count
30   N=4

Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  Max  VAR  

SD

98.3  20.7  2,948.4  621.6  3,570.0  22.500  4.743

            

TRUE MRCA  InterClade AB Founder      
Pooled SD Clades  A & B  Interclade

YrsPerGen*
30

Interclade GAB: L21* for L21 ALL (111Markers) & R1b-

L21>DF13>Z253**



Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  PooledVar   

PooledSD
   
113.3  22.2  3,398.6  667.4  25.936  5.093


MJost
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 11:22:43 AM by Mark Jost » Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
hoxgi
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« Reply #268 on: October 17, 2012, 10:10:57 PM »

Mark, these are very interesting calculations. Have you by any chance used the same approach on the major Z253 subclades - L226 and L1066? I think there are over a hundred L226+ people in the L226 Project. We have twenty-three L1066+ results in the Z253 Project, with a few more expected in the next week or two. On the basis of current results, I think you could assume the Irish Type IV group to all be L1066+ as well.
We also know that L1066 is downstream from Z2184 and Z2185. The following Z253+ people are confirmed Z2184- and Z2185-:
Pike 23996 (L554+)
Clark N1931
Whitehead 81795
Strahan 146819
My own kit (Hockings N85107) is Z253+ Z2184+ Z2185+ L1066-.
I don't seem to have any similarities in my STR off-modals to the L1066+ group and have a fairly high GD to some of them. So Z2184 and/or Z2185 will presumably define a larger subclade within Z253, which includes L1066.
Greg
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #269 on: October 18, 2012, 01:05:15 AM »

Greg,

I ran the 67 marker haplotypes and posted it in the file section of R-L21 Files section

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/

Called:

Z253&SubcladesTMRCA-Gen111T_Estimator_ModMJost

It has the Interclades for the three subclades of Z253: L1066, L226 and L554 in the order of age.... interesting.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
hoxgi
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« Reply #270 on: October 18, 2012, 01:22:31 AM »

Thanks very much Mark. These calculations are certainly worth some thought.
The relatively young age of L554 is consistent with the small number of L554+ people so far identified. 
However, I wasn't expecting L1066 to be around 800 years older than L226. Given that we already have two other SNPs (Z2184 and Z2185) between Z253 and L1066, I would think that there should also be other, as yet unidentifed, SNPs upstream of L226. I don't yet know if Geno 2 will help clarify this.
We'll continue to encourage testing for these SNPs in selected Z253+ persons.
Greg
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« Reply #271 on: December 24, 2012, 08:52:37 PM »

I was recently confirmed as R-Z253 by Geno 2.0. I am kit fN85391. Surname Morgan, assumed to be Welsh, but uncertain.  Also, my DYS 19=10, which seems to be very rare.

Most of this thread is over my head, but I am hoping people are still reading this thread and may be able to provide some advice on where to look next.  Since some of you seem to be adept at interpreting STR values given SNP results, I hoping someone will be willing to go out on a limb and provide some theories. 

It seems like the general theory is that Z253 originated in France or northern Spain, then spread to Ireland, Scotland, etc. Given my haplotype, and in particular the DYS 19 of 10, does anyone have any predictions about where my European ancestor came from?  Does DYS19=10 indicate a very old branch of Z253?  A few months ago I tried doing searches for people with this value using tools like usystrdatabase.org, and the only people I've found that were even close were of Iberian origin.  However, since I have seen one person from Como Italy, but he doesn't match well on other STRs. 

To add a little genealogical detail, there are several competing theories on where our first Morgan ancestor in the colonies (PA, VA, or MD) came from.  The two most likely are a) Edward Morgan of Bala, Wales, and b) Edward Morgan, son of Sir James Morgan of Llantarnum Abbey, Monmouthshire, Wales. The former is in northern Wales, someone of likely limited financial resources, and older Welsh descent or perhaps some ties to the Irish types that have been talked about so much on this thread.  The latter (b) was the son of a wealthy Catholic family in southern Wales.  This family fought in the 100 years war in Normandy.  Other theories include Caribbean immigration and then adopting the name Morgan at some point in the 1600s.

I might even be willing to pay someone for some consulting to look at our data and provide some insights.  Or I could chip in to support whatever project you might need funds for.  I have data from Geno 2.0, FTDNA (waiting on deep clade results), 23andme, and Ancestry DNA Family Finder.

I know most of you are more interested in the early history and scientific discovery aspects of this rather than helping some newbie joker figure out his genealogy, but if anyone has any clues it would be a great Christmas present.

BTW, merry Christmas!
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Autochthon
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« Reply #272 on: December 27, 2012, 12:08:17 PM »

I was recently confirmed as R-Z253 by Geno 2.0. I am kit fN85391. Surname Morgan, assumed to be Welsh, but uncertain.  Also, my DYS 19=10, which seems to be very rare.

Most of this thread is over my head, but I am hoping people are still reading this thread and may be able to provide some advice on where to look next.  Since some of you seem to be adept at interpreting STR values given SNP results, I hoping someone will be willing to go out on a limb and provide some theories. 

It seems like the general theory is that Z253 originated in France or northern Spain, then spread to Ireland, Scotland, etc. Given my haplotype, and in particular the DYS 19 of 10, does anyone have any predictions about where my European ancestor came from?  Does DYS19=10 indicate a very old branch of Z253?  A few months ago I tried doing searches for people with this value using tools like usystrdatabase.org, and the only people I've found that were even close were of Iberian origin.  However, since I have seen one person from Como Italy, but he doesn't match well on other STRs. 

To add a little genealogical detail, there are several competing theories on where our first Morgan ancestor in the colonies (PA, VA, or MD) came from.  The two most likely are a) Edward Morgan of Bala, Wales, and b) Edward Morgan, son of Sir James Morgan of Llantarnum Abbey, Monmouthshire, Wales. The former is in northern Wales, someone of likely limited financial resources, and older Welsh descent or perhaps some ties to the Irish types that have been talked about so much on this thread.  The latter (b) was the son of a wealthy Catholic family in southern Wales.  This family fought in the 100 years war in Normandy.  Other theories include Caribbean immigration and then adopting the name Morgan at some point in the 1600s.

I might even be willing to pay someone for some consulting to look at our data and provide some insights.  Or I could chip in to support whatever project you might need funds for.  I have data from Geno 2.0, FTDNA (waiting on deep clade results), 23andme, and Ancestry DNA Family Finder.

I know most of you are more interested in the early history and scientific discovery aspects of this rather than helping some newbie joker figure out his genealogy, but if anyone has any clues it would be a great Christmas present.

BTW, merry Christmas!

You are in the cluster 253-1716-11 in Mike Walsh's Yahoo R-L21 Project data spreadsheet. If you haven't already joined the project I suggest you do so, where you will find your closest STR matches and people who share your aims. The cluster comprizes more than 150 members with similar profiles to your own, predominantly of Bitish Isles origin, with a majority from the central counties of Ireland. There are currently no SNPs discovered downstream of Z253 that define the cluster 253-1716-11, but the search is on.

Your value of DYS19 = 10 is a long way from the modal value and is likely to be a single event mutatation. I would therefore suggest you don't put too great an emphasis on that value when comparing your profile with others.
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« Reply #273 on: December 27, 2012, 03:25:26 PM »

The DYS19 of 10 instead of 14 is treated as a GD of one on the Semargl site, at least in this instance:
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/nearest-neighbors/49919/

Z253 does seem to have a high presence in the central counties of Ireland.  That may be connected to the two major rivers, the River Shannon and the River Erne, both flow into the Atlantic. Headwaters of both are in what is now Co. Cavan.  So, while Cavan appears to be landlocked, it was not.
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« Reply #274 on: December 29, 2012, 04:01:39 PM »

@autochthon and @embPA: Thanks, this is very interesting and useful info.  I have now joined the Yahoo group and am trying to catch up.

Based on your observations about the central counties of Ireland where my haplotype seems to be common, I guess the implication is this:
Someone in Spain or the coast of France was born with the Z253 mutation about 3000 or so years ago.  One of his descendents a thousand or more years later sailed to Ireland, working his way up one of the rivers mentioned, settling in central Ireland.  Later some of his descendents started migrating to other parts of the British Isles.

Am I on the right track? Where does Wales come in? I don't see many Welsh names under Z253. I read that there was some Irish settlement in Wales in the fourth and fifth century.  Is that in the right time frame?  Any other ideas?   
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