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Author Topic: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226  (Read 56895 times)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #150 on: January 10, 2012, 06:12:54 PM »

BTW, I thought IALEM once posted that there is Beaker stuff all over NE Spain. Is that not the case?

I am not sure.  Traditionally it was thought to be mainly SE Spain and Portugal etc but it may have changed.  I do vaguely recall him posting that.  There is not a good overview book on beakers in recent times.  I will have a dig about to check.  Certainly though the Atlantic Bronze Age would be seen mainly as a west Iberian thing.  
There is indeed Bell Beaker in NE Spain, in particular in the Basque Country. However it is not part of the first wave of Bell Beaker expansion from Portugal, that apparently did not affect that region, but from the reflux coming from the north. So yes, there is Bell Beaker in NE Spain, but its inmediate origin is the SW of France

That is interesting given the L21 hotspot (by Iberian standards) in the Basque and Cantabria areas.  It would make sense if beakers in that area came from SW France where there is a reasonable amount of L21.  I now tend to think if the beaker model is the best interpretation of P312 that L21 actually first occurred in France.  That seems to be what variance suggests.  If it expanded mainly in the beaker hotspot of Atlantic France in all directions a lot would make sense to me about its distribution which does seem to radiate from that area.  For what its worth I now tend to think Celtic may have arisen in a wide area centred on Atlantic France and L21 may have been right at the heart of its origins.      

Alan,

I would agree that Celtic originated on the Atlantic facade during the Atlantic Bronze Age, but I would put its origins closer to Tartassian and the Tagus valley. I also agree that the beaker model is the best interpretation of P312. I think Galicia was an important hub as it is a hotspot of Celtic culture and Celtic tribes. As they spread northwards along the Atlantic facade Brittany and Morbihan became an important hub and possibly the link with the Alpine Europe, Halstatt and Le Tene via the Loire, Rhone and Rhine.

"Social and commercial relations between the peoples of the northwest of the Iberian Peninsula and those of Brittany and the British Islands date back to very remote times. Trade in tin between Ireland and Galicia was already established during the late Neolithic (MacCalister 1921:16), and the similarities in thousands of stone tombs found all along the coasts of Atlantic Europe could indicate that those contacts existed during the period of megalith construction as well (Eogan 1982). These ancient connections continued during the Bronze Age, when a welldefined socio-cultural and commercial zone called the Atlantic Façade, Area, or Province included Ireland, the Isle of Man, Scotland, Wales, the Cornish Peninsula, Armorica (Brittany) and Galicia in Spain, and lasted for at least three millennia (Cunliffe 1997:148). Cunliffe affords northwestern Iberia particular importance within the zone, noting how the complex influence of western seaways converged "around the isolated yet reassuring stepping-stone of Galicia" (Cunliffe 2001:60). Koch has discussed the social basis of early celticization, presenting a model in which he argues that the consolidation of a proto-Celtic language took place during the Late Bronze Age (c.1300-600 BC) in the Atlantic Zone (1991:18-19). According to a number of authors, Celtic language(s) became the lingua franca for the whole area at the time (Alonso Romero 1976; Cunliffe 1997:148-56; Meijide 1994; Ruiz-Gálvez 1984: passim). Thus, enough evidence exists to indicate that several centuries before the Christian Era, the northwest of the Iberian peninsula was already integrated into the Atlantic world (Tranoy 1981:103), and that the contacts between Galicia and the Celtic Atlantic regions continued until the middle of the first millennium AD (Cunliffe 1997: 145-49"
"Not long before the emergence of the Celts, an Indo-European pre- or proto-Celtic people had already settled in northwestern Iberia (Maluquer de Motes 1975: 130-31; Rankin 1996:6), a historical fact substantiated by epigraphic evidence (Tovar 1985:227-53). Strabo and Pliny described several tribes dwelling in the western regions of Iberia, among them the Celts; Herodotus refers to the Keltici in the west of the Iberian Peninsula and Pomponius Mela to the Celtici who had settled all along the northern and western coasts. Pliny left a list of the tribes living in the Conventus Lucensis (a large part of Galicia) in which he describes the regions inhabited by Celtic peoples (Tranoy 1981:41). This early presence of Celtic populations in the northwestern Iberian Peninsula is also confirmed by linguistic studies and archaeological finds (Ibid. 245-46)."
http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/6_20/alberro_6_20.pdf

These Atlantic trading routes are described in Professor Barry Cunliffes book "The Celts".

http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=3qzteKHfWUQC&pg=PT28&lpg=PT28&dq=morbihan+celtic+bell+beaker&source=bl&ots=UnA90JiYHT&sig=8YlNHZzi9nwglMhYXvLLI52Xmh4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tLQLT-fPOISiiAeVq_SABg&redir_esc=y&hl=zh-CN&sourceid=cndr#v=onepage&q&f=false

BTW the Atlantic region has its own designation and regional funding within the EU.
http://ec.europa.eu/environment/nature/info/pubs/docs/biogeos/Atlantic.pdf
http://arcatlantique.org/pdf/doc_travail/278_en.pdf\

One thing I think tends to get blurred is the fact that Atlantic Iberia from Portugal as far as perhaps Cantabria shows signs of a Lusitanian type language.  People tend to use the term para Celtic or Proto-Celtic but from what I have read it is basically a non-Celtic language that lacks the features that define Celtic and is rather closer to Italic.  That puts it in a similar class to Ligurian.  The fact there are two IE languages that may even have been living until quite late does suggest more to me that Celtic overlaid Lusitantian type languages.  So, I believe that Iberia was secondary in the development of Celtic and it more likely happened to the north in northern France where there doesnt seem to be that evidence for non-Celtic IE.  It seems to me that western Europe was first settled by people speaking Lusitanian/.Ligurian/Italic type languages and that Celtic developed in part of that group as a slow development away from the Italic base.  I believe that this development probably occurred on the NW periphery of the Italic group at some point in the mid-late Bronze Age, probably among beaker descended groups in the north and west of France.  I would think Iberia may have been largely Italic before influences from and connections with the north Atlantic areas dragged its elites into the developing Celtic speaking zone.  What has persuaded me that Celtic originated in the Atlantic Bronze Age is that much of Gallia Keltica and the various tribes actually called the Celti or Celtici (who probably gave their name to the ethnic label) actually falls far more into the Atlantic Bronze Age zone than that of the urnfield culture. In fact the urnfield culture only had a major impact on the fringes of the area of France called Celtica and the areas of Iberia with tribes called Celti etc.  So, whatever the name originally meant, I believe the Celts were the descendants of the Atlantic Bronze Age peoples, not central Europeans.



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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #151 on: January 11, 2012, 02:44:33 AM »

Alan trowel hands writes:
One thing I think tends to get blurred is the fact that Atlantic Iberia from Portugal as far as perhaps Cantabria shows signs of a Lusitanian type language.  People tend to use the term para Celtic or Proto-Celtic but from what I have read it is basically a non-Celtic language that lacks the features that define Celtic and is rather closer to Italic.  That puts it in a similar class to Ligurian.  The fact there are two IE languages that may even have been living until quite late does suggest more to me that Celtic overlaid Lusitantian type languages.  So, I believe that Iberia was secondary in the development of Celtic and it more likely happened to the north in northern France where there doesnt seem to be that evidence for non-Celtic IE.  It seems to me that western Europe was first settled by people speaking Lusitanian/.Ligurian/Italic type languages and that Celtic developed in part of that group as a slow development away from the Italic base.  I believe that this development probably occurred on the NW periphery of the Italic group at some point in the mid-late Bronze Age, probably among beaker descended groups in the north and west of France.  I would think Iberia may have been largely Italic before influences from and connections with the north Atlantic areas dragged its elites into the developing Celtic speaking zone.  What has persuaded me that Celtic originated in the Atlantic Bronze Age is that much of Gallia Keltica and the various tribes actually called the Celti or Celtici (who probably gave their name to the ethnic label) actually falls far more into the Atlantic Bronze Age zone than that of the urnfield culture. In fact the urnfield culture only had a major impact on the fringes of the area of France called Celtica and the areas of Iberia with tribes called Celti etc.  So, whatever the name originally meant, I believe the Celts were the descendants of the Atlantic Bronze Age peoples, not central Europeans.

Of course I agree perfectly with you. In which is different what you say from my theory?
1)   Italian Refugium
2)   7500 years ago “Italian” agriculturalists by sea peopled Spain and Portugal coming from many places of Italian Peninsula: Sardinia, Arene Candide in Liguria (but firstly they came from Tuscany)
3)   They carried G2a, E-V13, but I think also some R-P312, from which derived the particular Spanish haplogroups, R-M167, R-M153. but probably also R-L21, which in fact lack in Italy (but some R-L21 in the Lake Region, see Argiedude, could already be present). Probably some R-U152* was present: see the Mexicans found in 1000 Genome Project by Richard Rocca with at least 18 independent mutations…
Why I think that Spain isn’t at the origin of R? Because there lack the haplogroups upstream P-312, which are largely present in Italy, which get the “path” like I have always said, and the last communication of Rich Rocca about the 2 R-L51 in Tuscans (about 4%), the percentage found by Argiedude and me in Central-North Italy and lowest out of it. The other point is the R-L23/L150- of the Italian Romitti. But Italy has also the R1b1*, the R-M18, the R-M269 with YCAII=17-23 etc.
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rollyhomer
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« Reply #152 on: January 11, 2012, 04:45:30 AM »

Now R-L21: New SNP Z253 will set a new platform for new innovations.
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Heber
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« Reply #153 on: January 11, 2012, 01:55:54 PM »

Alan trowel hands writes:
One thing I think tends to get blurred is the fact that Atlantic Iberia from Portugal as far as perhaps Cantabria shows signs of a Lusitanian type language.  People tend to use the term para Celtic or Proto-Celtic but from what I have read it is basically a non-Celtic language that lacks the features that define Celtic and is rather closer to Italic.  That puts it in a similar class to Ligurian.  The fact there are two IE languages that may even have been living until quite late does suggest more to me that Celtic overlaid Lusitantian type languages.  So, I believe that Iberia was secondary in the development of Celtic and it more likely happened to the north in northern France where there doesnt seem to be that evidence for non-Celtic IE.  It seems to me that western Europe was first settled by people speaking Lusitanian/.Ligurian/Italic type languages and that Celtic developed in part of that group as a slow development away from the Italic base.  I believe that this development probably occurred on the NW periphery of the Italic group at some point in the mid-late Bronze Age, probably among beaker descended groups in the north and west of France.  I would think Iberia may have been largely Italic before influences from and connections with the north Atlantic areas dragged its elites into the developing Celtic speaking zone.  What has persuaded me that Celtic originated in the Atlantic Bronze Age is that much of Gallia Keltica and the various tribes actually called the Celti or Celtici (who probably gave their name to the ethnic label) actually falls far more into the Atlantic Bronze Age zone than that of the urnfield culture. In fact the urnfield culture only had a major impact on the fringes of the area of France called Celtica and the areas of Iberia with tribes called Celti etc.  So, whatever the name originally meant, I believe the Celts were the descendants of the Atlantic Bronze Age peoples, not central Europeans.

Of course I agree perfectly with you. In which is different what you say from my theory?
1)   Italian Refugium
2)   7500 years ago “Italian” agriculturalists by sea peopled Spain and Portugal coming from many places of Italian Peninsula: Sardinia, Arene Candide in Liguria (but firstly they came from Tuscany)
3)   They carried G2a, E-V13, but I think also some R-P312, from which derived the particular Spanish haplogroups, R-M167, R-M153. but probably also R-L21, which in fact lack in Italy (but some R-L21 in the Lake Region, see Argiedude, could already be present). Probably some R-U152* was present: see the Mexicans found in 1000 Genome Project by Richard Rocca with at least 18 independent mutations…
Why I think that Spain isn’t at the origin of R? Because there lack the haplogroups upstream P-312, which are largely present in Italy, which get the “path” like I have always said, and the last communication of Rich Rocca about the 2 R-L51 in Tuscans (about 4%), the percentage found by Argiedude and me in Central-North Italy and lowest out of it. The other point is the R-L23/L150- of the Italian Romitti. But Italy has also the R1b1*, the R-M18, the R-M269 with YCAII=17-23 etc.


What is interesting about the Atlantic Facade is that so many of the major migrations passed in waves by there and we're concentrated in specific regions:
The Atlantic Megalithic 4,800 - 3,000 and 3,000 - 1,200 between Iberia, Brittany, England, Ireland to Scotland
The Maritime Bell Beaker 2,400 - 1,800 between Iberia, Brittany, Ireland, England
The Atlantic Bronze Age 1,300 - 700 between Iberia, Brittany, Ireland, England
The Iron Age 1,200 BC - 300 AD between Iberia, Brittany, Halstatt, Le Tene (via the Loire, Rhone, Rhine)  The Isles
Common hotspots were Tartessian, Galicia, Morbihan, Wiltshire, Boyne Valley
Many originated from Anatolia, and migrated via Italy, Iberia and France to the Isles.
It is almost like successive generations were following in the footsteps of their ancestors.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 02:00:16 PM by Heber » Logged

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R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
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« Reply #154 on: January 30, 2012, 10:02:22 PM »

A few more Irish guys who are L226- got Z253+ results this evening. I don't have time right now to list them and talk about their haplotypes. Maybe tomorrow, or maybe Mike will take up the slack on that.
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« Reply #155 on: January 31, 2012, 03:50:31 PM »

A few more Irish guys who are L226- got Z253+ results this evening....
Here is the list I have

fN26398___ Canady___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-1117____________ JEMDX___ zzzUnkOrigin

f106554___ Conley___________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1117____________ GT897___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Meath

fN24384___ Gilchrist________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1117____________ BQGR2___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Loughrea

f205635___ Murta____________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1117____________ EME4H___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Westmeath, Cummerstown

f92957____ Johnson__________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1130____________ GUXTG___ England, East Midlands, Lincolnshire, West Lindsey, Gainsborough

f86680____ McConnell________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1130____________ HD5D5___ Ireland, Ulster

f19695____ McQuilkan________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1130____________ MN4KA___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyllshire, Kintyre, Clachan

fN93033___ Amuchástegui_____________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1211____________ 5ZZXA___ Spain, Basque Country, Biscay, Lea-Artibai, Markina

f66434____ Davila___________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1211____________ 3SZYY___ Spain

fE4785____ Gerber___________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1310____________ GVU3M___ Switzerland, Bern, Oberaargau, Herzogenbuchsee

f124852___ Leonard__________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1310-T4_________ MBX33___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Sligo

f99622____ Brown____________________ R-L21/Z253/L554______________ 253-1414____________ QEAEM___ Ireland

f23996____ Pike_____________________ R-L21/Z253/L554______________ 253-1414____________ KNA9C___ England, South West, Dorset, Poole

fN16295___ Ramsey___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-1414____________ KU83A___ Ireland, Ulster

f130121___ Ramsey___________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1414____________ ___ Ireland

f90442____ Law______________________
R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1518____________ Z3WVN___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Ayrshire

f94662____ Mitchell_________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1518____________ QM6HA___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Derry, Killymallaght

f149770___ zzzUnkName_______________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1518____________ 3QR7V___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Renfrewshire, Grennock

f149025___ Abbotts__________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ zzZ253unassigned____ S9QTM___ England, West Midlands, Shropshire, Lee Brockhurst

f162176___ Falch(Ølfernes)__________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ 5G4G5___ Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes

f58625____ Guerra___________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ 6FDJY___ Spain

fN40675___ Hammers__________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ FFPST___ UK

fN85107___ Hockings_________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ A5R59___ England, London

f184691___ Keany____________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ HYYYJ___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Leitrim, Glenfarne

f86086____ Kiely____________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 1014________________ APPVH___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Waterford, Ballynamult, Tooraneena Parish

f120936___ Merry____________________ R-L21/Z253/L895______________ 253-unassigned______ U38VD___ England, South East, Oxfordshire, Eynsham

f109000___ Mulholland_______________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ YGJ9A___ Ireland, Munster, Co. Tipperary, Littleton

f143916___ Rodriguez________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-unassigned______ NR6EY___ Spain

f81795____ Whitehead________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ ___ England
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 03:58:17 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #156 on: January 31, 2012, 05:56:29 PM »

I'm a neophyte on historical and archaeological expansions so may be I'm missing the perfect fit.

Since Z253* is pretty scattered and Z253 includes a Spanish contingent as well as a scattered Irish IV and a concentrated (Munster) Irish III contingent my first thoughts would be that Z253's expansion was quite ancient.  However, I'm not getting that with the interclade calculations. I get the beginning of the first millenium BC as being a time that Z255 and Z253's MRCA tribe got going whereas L21 is probably 1500 years or so older.

Is there a culture that was expanding rapidly through France around 1000 BC. Is this the beginning of the Hallstadt people?

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« Reply #157 on: January 31, 2012, 06:30:01 PM »


I'm not as familiar as some with this era, but the Atlantic Bronze age horizon would be a good fit with its connections to Urnfield.  Halstatt culture developed out of late Urnfield around the 8th century BC.  From the illustration on the Urnfield Wikipedia page, the Atlantic world imported more goods, than exported to Urnfield.  So, this is a clue that more people were moving north and west.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 06:30:25 PM by MHammers » Logged

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« Reply #158 on: January 31, 2012, 06:40:30 PM »

I get the beginning of the first millenium BC as being a time that Z255 and Z253's MRCA tribe got going whereas L21 is probably 1500 years or so older.

Mike,

By calculating Z255 and Z253 with the interclade method, is this the oldest possible  bound for Z253?  What about Z253 with the other parallel lineages such as DF23, L513, etc?  Wouldn't they push the node man much farther back in time?  I'm not disagreeing, only trying get an understanding on the concept and how everything fits.
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« Reply #159 on: January 31, 2012, 06:58:51 PM »


I'm not as familiar as some with this era, but the Atlantic Bronze age horizon would be a good fit with its connections to Urnfield.  Halstatt culture developed out of late Urnfield around the 8th century BC.  From the illustration on the Urnfield Wikipedia page, the Atlantic world imported more goods, than exported to Urnfield.  So, this is a clue that more people were moving north and west.

Is Urnfield where we see the Proto-Celts start to emerge as a distinct culture?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #160 on: January 31, 2012, 06:59:07 PM »

I'm a neophyte on historical and archaeological expansions so may be I'm missing the perfect fit.

Since Z253* is pretty scattered and Z253 includes a Spanish contingent as well as a scattered Irish IV and a concentrated (Munster) Irish III contingent my first thoughts would be that Z253's expansion was quite ancient.  However, I'm not getting that with the interclade calculations. I get the beginning of the first millenium BC as being a time that Z255 and Z253's MRCA tribe got going whereas L21 is probably 1500 years or so older.

Is there a culture that was expanding rapidly through France around 1000 BC. Is this the beginning of the Hallstadt people?



Around 1300-750BC the area is really in what has been termed the Atlantic Bronze Age.  From 750BC we are in the Hallstatt C phase.  Neither is really seen as large scale migration and conquest these days.  However, that doesnt rule out small scale movement.  The Hallstatt and La Tene cultures tended formerly to be hyped up as conquerors etc but in truth in many places all we see is adoption of metalwork and art styles and perhaps some behavoural traits but with most stuff remaining local indigenous in nature.  As such they are no different from the Atlantic Bronze Age.  If the bar for detecting migration is lowered to only require trends in metalworking then there is no reason to focus on the La Tene and Hallstatt periods.  
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #161 on: January 31, 2012, 07:01:25 PM »


I'm not as familiar as some with this era, but the Atlantic Bronze age horizon would be a good fit with its connections to Urnfield.  Halstatt culture developed out of late Urnfield around the 8th century BC.  From the illustration on the Urnfield Wikipedia page, the Atlantic world imported more goods, than exported to Urnfield.  So, this is a clue that more people were moving north and west.
The old school idea is urnfield leads to Hallstatt C leads to Hallstatt D leads to La Tene.  However, it just doesnt really stack up in terms of Celtic ethnogenesis and with every passing year it is less and less believed.  Certainly it might be part of the story but its not the whole thing. 
Is Urnfield where we see the Proto-Celts start to emerge as a distinct culture?
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« Reply #162 on: January 31, 2012, 07:59:48 PM »

I get the beginning of the first millenium BC as being a time that Z255 and Z253's MRCA tribe got going whereas L21 is probably 1500 years or so older.
By calculating Z255 and Z253 with the interclade method, is this the oldest possible  bound for Z253?  What about Z253 with the other parallel lineages such as DF23, L513, etc?  Wouldn't they push the node man much farther back in time?  I'm not disagreeing, only trying get an understanding on the concept and how everything fits.
No. The youngest interclade nodal Most Recent Common Ancestor for a pair of subclades sets the maximum likely age for either SNP's MRCA. As long as the SNPs are parallel we know the interclade nodal man had to be L21*, therefore both Z253 and Z255 must be younger.

The older interclade nodal MRCAs push back the parent clade, L21 in this case. The DF23 lineage seems to be the one that branched off first and therefore, in pair with other SNPs, sets the mininum age for the parent, L21, back.
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« Reply #163 on: January 31, 2012, 08:01:51 PM »

R-Z253 is a rapidly growing subclade. There were a number of positive results today among men with British Isles ancestry or British Isles surnames.

Looks like a reasonable gamble for R-L21 guys looking for that possible downstream SNP.
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« Reply #164 on: January 31, 2012, 08:03:20 PM »

Around 1300-750BC the area is really in what has been termed the Atlantic Bronze Age.  From 750BC we are in the Hallstatt C phase.  Neither is really seen as large scale migration and conquest these days.  However, that doesnt rule out small scale movement. ...
Since we are talking about Most Recent Common Ancestor ages, we are talking about individuals so all that is required is that we see some individuals who were sending descendants in multiple directions and either had some significant advantage or were very lucky... or both.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 08:03:43 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #165 on: January 31, 2012, 08:06:09 PM »

R-Z253 is a rapidly growing subclade. There were a number of positive results today among men with British Isles ancestry or British Isles surnames.

Looks like a reasonable gamble for R-L21 guys looking for that possible downstream SNP.
Yes, I think Z253, DF21, then DF23, Z255 and L513 in that order are all prospects for L21* folks. All are over a couple of thousand years old and all have no one single STR off-modal that is golden. L513's 617>=13 maybe close to that and DF23's 481>22.
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« Reply #166 on: January 31, 2012, 09:31:44 PM »

No. The youngest interclade nodal Most Recent Common Ancestor for a pair of subclades sets the maximum likely age for either SNP's MRCA. As long as the SNPs are parallel we know the interclade nodal man had to be L21*, therefore both Z253 and Z255 must be younger.

The older interclade nodal MRCAs push back the parent clade, L21 in this case. The DF23 lineage seems to be the one that branched off first and therefore, in pair with other SNPs, sets the mininum age for the parent, L21, back.

Ok, thanks.
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« Reply #167 on: February 02, 2012, 03:00:17 PM »

I Don't know if it's relevant but I was was just reading about the  'Protestant Plantation of Ireland@ from Scotland. Apparently in the 16th century more Scots to Scandinavia and Poland than to Ireland America was  another destination via Spain.
rms2 asked a question about this in regards to Z253 would this have anything to do with it. I certianly didn't know this. The numbers involved were 35,00+.
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A.D.
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« Reply #168 on: February 02, 2012, 03:04:42 PM »

Sorry 35,000+
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rms2
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« Reply #169 on: February 08, 2012, 09:10:59 PM »

I notice that R-Z253 (L226-) is growing rapidly. Interestingly, there is at least one haplotype in the bunch (Mulholland, kit 109000) that bears at least a superficial resemblance to my own, with 390=23 and 385=11-11. That's not much to go on, but it might be worthwhile for me to order Z253.

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« Reply #170 on: February 12, 2012, 11:20:56 PM »

I notice that R-Z253 (L226-) is growing rapidly. Interestingly, there is at least one haplotype in the bunch (Mulholland, kit 109000) that bears at least a superficial resemblance to my own, with 390=23 and 385=11-11. That's not much to go on, but it might be worthwhile for me to order Z253.
There is a guy named Murta or Murtaugh (on the L21 Yahoo group) who dug up a bunch of folks and is after them to get tested.

Besides the Irish III and IV guys, there are a couple of other clusters who appear to have Z253+

253-1117: 511=11 (557=17 449>=30 442=13 439>=13 464x=14,$,16,$) {Z253} [Butler,Canady,Farrell,Reynolds,Robertson]
253-1414: 487=14 437=14 389i=14 534>=16 (456=15) {Z253 L554}
253-1130: 385=11,11 449>=30 576>=19 {Z253}
253-1518: 392>=15 448<=18 557>=17 444>=13 (607<=14) {Z253} [McCracken]
253-1211: 385a=12/13 439=11 447=24 449>=30 537=11 481<=20 (459=10,10) {Z253} [Spanish surnames]

The 253-1117 looks to be pretty big.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
rms2
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« Reply #171 on: February 17, 2012, 08:02:46 PM »

We added a couple of Englishmen to the growing Z253+ (L226-) pile this evening: Berriman, kit 41327, Ysearch MRJ55, and Dredge, kit 63623, Ysearch ARERF.

Maybe I should have written "Britons" rather than "Englishmen".

« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 08:04:22 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #172 on: February 17, 2012, 08:28:14 PM »

Z253 is fascinating.  Irish III, Irish IV, the Iberian cluster and many others too.  I feel like Atlantic France would be in the centre of its gravity and would also explain why a clade with so many 'Norman' names like Irish IV has this SNP.  Have many French been tested for Z253?  It seems unlikely to me that Pyrenean Spain and the isles can have a significant amount of this SNP but not France in between.  Not impossible but unlikely IMO. 
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rms2
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« Reply #173 on: February 17, 2012, 08:30:49 PM »

Z253 is fascinating.  Irish III, Irish IV, the Iberian cluster and many others too.  I feel like Atlantic France would be in the centre of its gravity and would also explain why a clade with so many 'Norman' names like Irish IV has this SNP.  Have many French been tested for Z253?  It seems unlikely to me that Pyrenean Spain and the isles can have a significant amount of this SNP but not France in between.  Not impossible but unlikely IMO. 

I haven't done a detailed check, but I don't think many of our Frenchmen have been tested for it. I suggested to one that he try it. Perhaps I'll send out an email to the others, as well.
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« Reply #174 on: February 17, 2012, 08:40:36 PM »

I just sent a bulk email to all the guys in our France category urging them to test for both Z253 and DF23, if they haven't already. Hopefully at least some of them will. I used one of those online translators to send a French version, since I don't know much French, and some of our guys don't know much English.
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