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Author Topic: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226  (Read 48503 times)
OConnor
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« Reply #100 on: December 28, 2011, 02:24:30 PM »

Is there any Z253 in Scandinavia?
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #101 on: December 28, 2011, 06:56:10 PM »

Is there any Z253 in Scandinavia?

Yes, one that we know of.

...
f162176___ Falch(Ølfernes)__________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ 5G4G5___ Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes

« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 06:56:20 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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A.D.
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« Reply #102 on: December 29, 2011, 04:11:42 PM »

It was just a thought about how some could have got to Spain. To be quite honest it displays my lack of knowledge. As for Irish ancestry, I think a lot of it has a 'mythical' status  it seems every body wants an Irish connection. I know for a fact some people from the U.S. have traced their ancestry back to Ireland because they found Cove as place of origin in fact it only means that's where they got on the boat. A fried of mine came home from the U.S. and was asked to photo a family 'home' in Cove he found nothing in Cove or any surrounding area corresponding to the name on graves,  parish records, town-lands, local historians absolutely nothing. On reporting back the news was replied with hostility and disbelief. I don't have too much faith in records but it's what wwe have to work with. 
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rms2
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« Reply #103 on: December 30, 2011, 09:36:08 AM »

And I don't mean to be a knot head. Sorry if I come off that way sometimes. It could be the Z253 in Spain came from Ireland, but I tend to think of Ireland and the other parts of the British Isles as mostly receiving population and influences from the Continent in ancient times and not vice versa.
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« Reply #104 on: December 30, 2011, 11:04:14 AM »

And I don't mean to be a knot head. Sorry if I come off that way sometimes. It could be the Z253 in Spain came from Ireland, but I tend to think of Ireland and the other parts of the British Isles as mostly receiving population and influences from the Continent in ancient times and not vice versa.

Really, L21 as a whole is in flux right now with all the new SNP's.  The out of the Isles proponents may get validation with some of this, when once alot more of the undifferentiated continentals are tested.  Still, L21**, Z253, etc. are at least as old the Bronze age, so where these nodes were born may never be known.  France is still the better candidate as a source for the upstream part, imo.  I think what we can say though is, there has been alot of maritime movements at all levels of R1b since L11+, whereas as M269- L11 was more land-based.
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rms2
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« Reply #105 on: December 30, 2011, 06:42:03 PM »

Honestly, from what I have seen, by far most of our continentals are coming up negative for the Isles clades or what look thus far like Isles clades.

And most of our French guys still have no decent matches at 37 markers and beyond.
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« Reply #106 on: December 31, 2011, 11:35:22 PM »

I thnk if i had said 'via' Ireland as opposed to 'from' Ireland would have made more sense in what I was asking. Put simply if Ireland could have had a disproportional in put due to the political circumstances at the time. It was not a question of origin but 'in put'. {'ll  give you an idea of how I think ( please correct me I could dom with some restoration in humanity) Stone age rms2 , A.D. and Brad Pitt go on a 'world wide Tour' of Europe who is going to have the most decedents? Did I mention Brads was a family friend from 'Outer Albigulia'. I think the question of how prolific any  DNA type is ultimately down to individuals. 
   
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« Reply #107 on: January 06, 2012, 06:14:04 PM »

Wow! Great news! We have hit on Irish Type IV/Continental, or what I label 1310-T4. A while ago a Gerber from Switzerland came up Z253+. I noticed he was 426=13 and 406s1=11 which is common among 1310-T4. 426 is a very slow mutator, in fact.  Margaret J identified an aggressive testing 1310-T4 guy and his result just came in Z53+.

This means Irish Type IV and Irish Type III are more closely related to each other than the rest of L21. We are getting some nice layering (of big branches) in the L21 tree.
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« Reply #108 on: January 06, 2012, 06:53:24 PM »

Wow! Great news! We have hit on Irish Type IV/Continental, or what I label 1310-T4. A while ago a Gerber from Switzerland came up Z253+. I noticed he was 426=13 and 406s1=11 which is common among 1310-T4. 426 is a very slow mutator, in fact.  Margaret J identified an aggressive testing 1310-T4 guy and his result just came in Z53+.

This means Irish Type IV and Irish Type III are more closely related to each other than the rest of L21. We are getting some nice layering (of big branches) in the L21 tree.

I am finding this increasingly hard to keep up with!  If I recall correctly Irish Type 3 is linked to the DalgCais tribes of SW Ireland while Irish Type 4 has been suggested to relate to Normans etc.  Its hard to make sense of that if they are especially closely connected genetically. Perhaps history repeated itself and both the 'Normans' and the DalgCais originated in NW France, albeit settling Ireland at different times.
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« Reply #109 on: January 06, 2012, 07:54:41 PM »

A few other British Isles guys got Z253+ results this evening, as did another member of that Spanish cluster, which I think Mike has labeled "1211", the one with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10.

I am wondering if Z253 isn't evidence of movement from northern Iberia to the British Isles at some point. Of course, I understand the reverse could be the case.
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« Reply #110 on: January 06, 2012, 08:30:49 PM »

Wow! Great news! We have hit on Irish Type IV/Continental, or what I label 1310-T4. A while ago a Gerber from Switzerland came up Z253+. I noticed he was 426=13 and 406s1=11 which is common among 1310-T4. 426 is a very slow mutator, in fact.  Margaret J identified an aggressive testing 1310-T4 guy and his result just came in Z53+.
This means Irish Type IV and Irish Type III are more closely related to each other than the rest of L21. ...
I am finding this increasingly hard to keep up with!  If I recall correctly Irish Type 3 is linked to the DalgCais tribes of SW Ireland while Irish Type 4 has been suggested to relate to Normans etc.  Its hard to make sense of that if they are especially closely connected genetically. Perhaps history repeated itself and both the 'Normans' and the DalgCais originated in NW France, albeit settling Ireland at different times.
I think Ken Nordtvedt (hope I have this right) discovered both of these, but at some point in the process he uncovered a scattered continental distribution for Irish IV, hence he added "continental" and he speculated this might have something to do with the Normans.  I think he'd admit this was just a speculation.

You are right, Dennis Wright's research is that Irish III/L226+ is related to Dalcassian tribes.  Dennis has even written a paper about their surnames and locations. Here are the two main web sites for Irish III and IV.  James O'Shea is the project leader for IV.

http://www.irishtype3dna.org/index.php
http://sites.google.com/site/irishtype4/irish-type-4-sub-clade

L226+ (Irish 3) guys are very much relegated to Ireland, particularly Munster.

Here are the non-Isles guys who are in Z253+ clusters.
f132118   Bankston   Sweden
fN93033   Amuchástegui   Spain, Basque Country, Biscay, Lea-Artibai, Markina
f58857   Archuleta   Spain, Basque Country, Guipuzcoa, Eibar
f128223   Calzada   Spain
f66434   Davila   Spain
f82247   Garcia   Spain
f67597   Robles   Spain
f167768   Romero   Spain
f46334   Sampedro   Spain, Cantabria, Matienzo
fE4785   Gerber   Switzerland, Bern, Oberaargau, Herzogenbuchsee
f76285   Woods   Netherlands
fN43805   Lenares   Spain
f98444   Bryan   Denmark
f162176   Falch(Ølfernes)   Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes
f58625   Guerra   Spain
f143916   Rodriguez   Spain

Here is Dennis W's paper on Z253+ L226+ Irish III:
http://www.jogg.info/51/files/Wright.pdf
Dennis W writes that Irish III
Quote
reveals a distinctive Y-DNA signature that peaks in frequency in the Irish counties of Tipperary, Clare and Limerick. These counties were the hereditary homelands of the DalgCais families, allso called Dalcassian, septs descended from Cas, born CE 347, sixth in descent from Cormac Cas, King of Munster. Dalcassian surnames are more strongly represented with this signature than other surnames.
and
Quote
   O'Brien are descendants from Brian Boru
    McGrath were poets to the O'Brien Clan and descend from Brian Boru's brother. (see Notes section)
    Hogan are descendants from Cosgrach, an uncle of Brian Boru
    Kennedy are descendants from a nephew of Brian Boru
    Crow(e) are a sub-sept of the O'Brien clan
    Casey are a sub-sept of the OBrien clan
    McMahon are a major sub-branch of O'Brien clan
    O'Mahony are descended from Mathghamhain (Irish for bear), the grandson of Brian Boru through his daughter Sabh who married Cian (O'Mahony). So this line is not Dalcassian in the male line.

Here is a map of where Z253* (apparently) Irish IV guys are found in Ireland. Close to home for me... Kilkenny and Wexford.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxpcmlzaHR5cGU0fGd4OjM3OTdlYTJmMzdiMjk2N2Q&pli=1

Here is O'Shea's interpretation of IV:
Quote from: James O
The results can be viewed in at least two ways.

Like the other Irish sub-clades it could be that the progenitor of the group was from one of the medieval Irish clans of the area such as the Déise, the Osraige or the Laigin. However the fact that the matching surnames include a majority with British and Continental ancestry makes this unlikely. It might be possible to accept that the British surnames evolved from a SE Irish source but it is almost impossible to see how the many Continental did.

It is thus more logical to accept that the progenitor was a European whose descendents migrated to Britain leaving offspring there, some of whom in turn moved westwards to Ireland. While no expert on medieval migrations seeing the presence of many surnames of apparent Norman origin it would appear that the progenitor is likely to have been of Norman extraction whose descendents arrived in England as part of the Norman invasion of 1066 and subsequently adopted various surnames there. Later descendents could have been part of the Norman invasion of Ireland in 1169 who settled in the SE of Ireland. They could perhaps even have been kin of those who adopted the Butler surname. The other Irish surnames could have been adopted over the generations by the usual methods of non-paternity events, fostering, inter-marriage, adoption etc. It is known that there were strong links between the incoming settlers and the native Irish resulting for instance in James Butler (d.1487) the father of the 8th earl of Ormond being fostered out, probably to Kennedy foster parents.    
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 06:44:44 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #111 on: January 07, 2012, 07:19:17 AM »

My first reaction is to doubt a Norman origin for Z253 in the British Isles and look to Iberia and well before 1066.

What "surnames of apparent Norman origin" was O'Shea talking about?

I guess if Z253 starts showing up among guys with established Norman pedigrees, that will be some kind of indication. By "established Norman pedigrees" I mean mostly Frenchmen with ancestry in Normandy. My experience with claims of Norman ancestry in the British Isles is that they are nearly impossible to prove and everybody seems to have or want one.
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« Reply #112 on: January 07, 2012, 07:57:48 AM »

My first reaction is to doubt a Norman origin for Z253 in the British Isles and look to Iberia and well before 1066.
Of course I agree with you. It seems that R-L21 has had a starlike diffusion (8 subclades so far) and only more data about R-L21/L459* will be able to say which was its point of origin. Certainly this subclade Z253, with its presence in Spain and Switzerland, seems to make us hypothesize an origin near my Italian Refugium. You know I have always said that Italy has very few R-L21, and some are clearly of recent French origin, but the same Argiedude, the same Soncina, the last R-L21 found in Lucania (deep South Italy) ask for other analysis.
And, please, don’t use anymore the old calculations about the haplogroups age. These haplogroups are older and their diffusion must be thought in another history (or, better, prehistory) of Europe. Why Busby et al. said that R-L21 hadn’t a lower variance than the supposed Middle Eastern R-haplogroups? Because, probably, the haplotypes survived (seen that the most part went extinct) of R-L21 it isn’t said that are more recent than the other ancestral ones. The DYS464=13, 13, 15,17 of the Irish III/Dalcassian demonstrates, I think, by its low values in a and b, its ancientness and the link with the ancestral values of R1b1* and first subclades. I, who am R-L23, have only 14,14 in a,b. Even though am I to have hypothesized the mutations around the modal and the convergence to the modal as time passes and the mutation for the tangent (higher and lower of course), these values demonstrate the ancientness of these haplotypes. And don’t forget the DYS19=10 of Argiedude or DYS450=10 of Soncina and of Jones, who, not by chance, is R-L21/L371, i.e. one of the first subclades of R-L459.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #113 on: January 07, 2012, 09:24:36 AM »

My first reaction is to doubt a Norman origin for Z253 in the British Isles and look to Iberia and well before 1066.

What "surnames of apparent Norman origin" was O'Shea talking about?

I guess if Z253 starts showing up among guys with established Norman pedigrees, that will be some kind of indication. By "established Norman pedigrees" I mean mostly Frenchmen with ancestry in Normandy. My experience with claims of Norman ancestry in the British Isles is that they are nearly impossible to prove and everybody seems to have or want one.

In Irish terms 'non-native' or non-Gaelic' surnames were apparently very prominent among the Irish type 4 people with only a minority of Gaelic ones.  As non-Gaelic names are nowhere near as common as Gaelic ones among the modern Irish, the non-Gaelic names in Irish 4 are overrepresented hugely and this seems very unlikely to be chance.  Norman may be the wrong word but there seems to be a strong theory that it represents later incomers to Ireland.  

As I have noted before, history tends to repeat itself due partly to Geography and its possible that both the NW French element of the 'Normans' and the Gaelic Irish had roots in essentially the same area of the continent, albeit they arrived in Ireland at radically different times.  The fact that the STRs of Irish 3 and 4 are radically different indicates that the SNP in common is some sort of deep time ancestral thing from shared ancestry several 1000s of years earlier.  I would guess this all indicates too that the SNP is really pretty old.

As for origin, it seems STRs are of limited use in terms of very deep time relationships.  Basically shows that really deep time relationships relating to the first 500 years or so after L21 will only be resolved by SNPs.  Does this all suggest that Z253 is very old, almost as old as L21?
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« Reply #114 on: January 07, 2012, 03:11:44 PM »

I have got to say again that the lack of French testing will be a huge problem in understanding L21 at subclade level.  France is the nearest country and was almost certainly the most important on the prehistory of the isles. 
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« Reply #115 on: January 07, 2012, 06:17:22 PM »

...... Why Busby et al. said that R-L21 hadn’t a lower variance than the supposed Middle Eastern R-haplogroups?...
Busby et al never really wrote about or analyzed that in terms of the whole R1b phylogeny. He did not look above R-L11(S127). His claim is there are no significant differences in STR diversity from east to west in Europe for L11. It appears to be a tremendous hole in their report that they did not look upstream at L51*, L23*, M269*. I don't know, but it seems like such a hole that I question the intent of the paper.

Of course, I could also bring up the point (another log for the fire) that at least six of the ten STRs that they used to study L11 STR diversity and east/west clines were not "linear" (their term) for more than 5000 years by their own analysis. Why would they claim that Barlaresque is wrong that R1b had Neolithic spread (7000 years ago) using data that 60% of which is not valid for the same timeframe?  by their own standard!

Can you anyone argue in support of Busby on these two holes in their paper? These are holes big enough to drive trucks through.
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« Reply #116 on: January 07, 2012, 06:37:06 PM »

...  The DYS464=13, 13, 15,17 of the Irish III/Dalcassian demonstrates, I think, by its low values in a and b, its ancientness and the link with the ancestral values of R1b1* and first subclades. I, who am R-L23, have only 14,14 in a,b. ....
Let's think this through a bit.  You are saying Irish III's (I'll call it L226) low values at 464a and 464b reflect "ancientness" because some folks who are L23*, like yourself also have low values as well.

Please look at the establish Y DNA phlyogeny for L226 and back upstream.
http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html
L226 descends from Z253 which descends from L21 which descends from P312 which descends from L11, etc.

We've got all of the data. The modal at 464a,b for L21 is 15,15. This is not a marginal statement. From our DNA projects for L21:

464a
3480 have 15
408 have 14
274 have 13

464b
2933 have 15
59 have 14
195 have 13

So for low values like 14 or 13 to be the ancestral values for L21 means those folks had extremely bad luck while the guys who had 464a,b=15,15 just took off.  For L21 maybe this happened so the low values are ancestral - just the 15,15 guys were lucky.'

We go up the next step to P312 what do we find?  The same thing. 464a,b=15,15 is the clear modal for P312. L21 brother U152 also has 15,15 underneath P312... so does brother Z196.

Let's go back another step to L11.  The same. L11's modal is 15,15. L11*'s is also 15,15.

It would amazing for the ancestral lineage back to L23 to have the low 464a,b values carry forward through the descendants down to L226 while at least three different times, L11, P312 and L21 - different 15,15 guys became much, much more numerous after having their mutations to 15,15.
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« Reply #117 on: January 07, 2012, 07:22:01 PM »

I understand that the Iberian Z253 guys are also in an STR cluster that Rich identified some time back.  Am I right in recalling that this cluster was considered to be young and the descendants of one Medieval guy?  I also understand that the Irish type 3 is considered to date to not much older than 1200 years ago.  I also understand that STRs of the Iberian Z253 cluster, the Irish type 3 are very different from each other and also from Irish type 4.  If I am understanding this correctly both the Iberian and Irish 3 STR-based clusters are on the one hand essentially the result of one Medieval guy in Ireland and Iberia respectively whiie on the other hand the actual common Z253 ancestor of these (and Irish type 4) must have lived a very long time back, nearer the time of L21.  Is that on the right track?

It really is amazing how many people are the descendants of a few people who lived in the AD era.  It makes it incredibly difficult to infer the what and where of the prehistoric era.  As far as I can see we have an early SNP who location of origin is unknown and then we have nothing to go by until we reach the end game of Medieval STR clusters perhaps some 3000 years later. If this is right then we still have a chasm of thousands of years between the SNP and the localised clusters.  Perhaps Z253 was early enough to have spread widely with the spread of L21 and then simply took off to varying degrees by chance in scattered areas forming clusters in the Medieval period. 
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« Reply #118 on: January 07, 2012, 07:43:15 PM »

Wow! Great news! We have hit on Irish Type IV/Continental, or what I label 1310-T4. A while ago a Gerber from Switzerland came up Z253+. I noticed he was 426=13 and 406s1=11 which is common among 1310-T4. 426 is a very slow mutator, in fact.  Margaret J identified an aggressive testing 1310-T4 guy and his result just came in Z53+.

This means Irish Type IV and Irish Type III are more closely related to each other than the rest of L21. We are getting some nice layering (of big branches) in the L21 tree.

Probably jumping the gun but the presence in SW Ireland (Irish 3), NE Spain (NE Iberian cluster) and (perhaps) the part of France associated with the Normans and their allies (Irish 4) might give some sort of suggestion of an original centre of gravity in Atlantic France and access to the western seaways. However, given the SNP is clearly old but the local clusters are young, it would seem that their could have been spread at any time from the Bronze Age to Medieval times, perhaps in more than one phase and perhaps more than one direction.  The evidence for this is that Irish 3 and 4 are both found in Ireland but their common ancestor is very distant despite the proximity.  Again, I do think geography and natural transportation routes mean history repeats itself.   
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« Reply #119 on: January 07, 2012, 07:46:31 PM »

There are a couple of Spanish Z253+ guys thus far who do not belong to that Iberian cluster with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10. So, Z253 in Spain is broader than just that single cluster.
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« Reply #120 on: January 07, 2012, 07:57:28 PM »

There are a couple of Spanish Z253+ guys thus far who do not belong to that Iberian cluster with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10. So, Z253 in Spain is broader than just that single cluster.

One of those guys has no matches at 67 markers and one 33/37 match with a man with the German surname Braun.

The other has - I just discovered - one decent match, 61/67, with a man whose ancestor had the surname Gonzales and who has already tested L21+ (but who has not yet joined the project). He has a 33/37 match with a man with the Spanish surname De Leon but who lists no means for me to contact him, unfortunately.
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« Reply #121 on: January 07, 2012, 08:24:48 PM »

The two Spanish Z253+ gentlemen I was talking about, Ysearch NR6EY and 6FDJY, are 19 apart at 67 markers. Again, they are not part of that Spanish cluster I think Mike has labelled "1211", with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10.
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« Reply #122 on: January 07, 2012, 08:31:11 PM »

There are a couple of Spanish Z253+ guys thus far who do not belong to that Iberian cluster with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10. So, Z253 in Spain is broader than just that single cluster.

One of those guys has no matches at 67 markers and one 33/37 match with a man with the German surname Braun.

The other has - I just discovered - one decent match, 61/67, with a man whose ancestor had the surname Gonzales and who has already tested L21+ (but who has not yet joined the project). He has a 33/37 match with a man with the Spanish surname De Leon but who lists no means for me to contact him, unfortunately.

Any locations for the non-cluster Spanish Z253 guys?  The NE Spain location for the cluster is not what I would expect if the link is a beaker or Atlantic Bronze Age one.  I would more expect Portugal and Galicia.

Have many French tested for Z253 yet?  I am always mindful of the unfortunate thing that the nearest neighbour to Britain and Ireland is usually very undertested.  When L21 first appeared the SW German group started to look strong first despite it in reality being not that strong while it took a bit of money to be thrown at French R1b to reveal its strength there despite it being pretty strong in France.  Could the same thing be happening for Z253?  I would tend to take the Irish IV cluster being Z253 as indirect evidence that it had a presence somewhere between the Loire and Flanders (where the Normans and their allies came from) in the high Medieval period.  Brittany and Normandy seem likely to me.  
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« Reply #123 on: January 07, 2012, 08:36:50 PM »

Actually, the two Z253+ guys I referred to as Spanish cannot get their lines out of Mexico in one case and Puerto Rico in the other, but the surnames are solidly Spanish.

I'll have to check the possible French Z253 test results, if there are any. There are no French positives yet, at least in our project.
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Posts: 2012


« Reply #124 on: January 07, 2012, 08:37:29 PM »

There are a couple of Spanish Z253+ guys thus far who do not belong to that Iberian cluster with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10. So, Z253 in Spain is broader than just that single cluster.

Interesting.  Which Iberian L21 has tested negative for Z253?  I wonder if there is a pattern of any sort between Iberians who are negative or positive for Z253.  I have always thought that as well as the NE cluster, all Iberian L21 with a location seems to either be in the east or the west.  It would be interesting (although baffling) if Iberian Z253 is NE Spanish while L21* is west Iberian.  I have no idea if this is the case though.  
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