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Author Topic: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226  (Read 59264 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #75 on: December 17, 2011, 04:01:06 PM »

...Also, is there enough Z253 and derived people to do a variance calculation?  
I have been doing MRCA calculations for Z253, but in all fairness, it is so lopsided to L226, it is not a true reflection of Z253.  Too early.
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« Reply #76 on: December 17, 2011, 05:12:14 PM »

We need many more L21 men to order the Z253 test.

I will probably blow $29 on it myself very soon. My haplotype doesn't really resemble any of the positives thus far, but you never know.
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« Reply #77 on: December 20, 2011, 11:33:50 PM »

If I look at all the probable Z253+ L226- cluster people that are not from the Isles I get the following. This is speculative as they are not all Z253* confirmed. It is interesting to see they range from Iberia to Scandinavia....  reminds me of the Z196* North/South Cluster.


f58857____ Archuleta________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210________ BXPKT___ Spain, Basque Country, Guipuzcoa, Eibar
f132118___ Bankston_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117________ FUD8X___ Sweden
f128223___ Calzada__________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210________ BDAWP___ Spain
f66434____ Davila___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210________ 3SZYY___ Spain
f82247____ Garcia___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210________ ZQ6P9___ Spain
fN43805___ Lenares__________________ R-L21________________________ zzL21unassigned_ JDTJC___ Spain
f67597____ Robles___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210________ G9CRT___ Spain
f167768___ Romero___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210________ 7K7QZ___ Spain
f46334____ Sampedro_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210________ PP6SJ___ Spain, Cantabria, Matienzo
f143916___ Rodriguez________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-unassigned__ NR6EY___ Spain
fN93033___ Amuchástegui_____________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1210________ 5ZZXA___ Spain, Basque Country, Biscay, Lea-Artibai, Markina
f58625____ Guerra___________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned__ 6FDJY___ Spain
f162176___ Falch(Ølfernes)__________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned__ 5G4G5___ Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes
fE4785____ Gerber___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned__ GVU3M___ Switzerland, Bern, Oberaargau, Herzogenbuchsee
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 03:54:27 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #78 on: December 21, 2011, 09:53:52 AM »

Z253 sounds like it could be really old if it includes people completely unmatched on an STR basis.  There could be a direct link between Spain and NW Ireland in remote times or they could both simply share some common ancestry at a third location.  The logical thing is to look at Atlantic France and Britain closely as they are geographically intermediate.  Another possibility is that the clade could have gone north to south at a remote era prior to L226 which I understand is pretty late and therefore doesnt tell us a lot about prehistory.  In tim it will be very interesting to get a variance figure for the Iberian Z253 to see if it is old or a later introduction from somewhere else.  I notice that the Iberians with a location indicated seem to be from the NE area (Basque Country and Cantrabria) and that makes it a poor match for the Atlantic Bronze Age and perhaps also the beaker period. 
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« Reply #79 on: December 21, 2011, 03:54:04 PM »

Z253 sounds like it could be really old if it includes people completely unmatched on an STR basis.  There could be a direct link between Spain and NW Ireland in remote times or they could both simply share some common ancestry at a third location.  The logical thing is to look at Atlantic France and Britain closely as they are geographically intermediate.  Another possibility is that the clade could have gone north to south at a remote era prior to L226 which I understand is pretty late and therefore doesnt tell us a lot about prehistory.  In tim it will be very interesting to get a variance figure for the Iberian Z253 to see if it is old or a later introduction from somewhere else.  I notice that the Iberians with a location indicated seem to be from the NE area (Basque Country and Cantrabria) and that makes it a poor match for the Atlantic Bronze Age and perhaps also the beaker period.
The Z196 North-South cluster has a presence in the Pyrenees area too, in the form of M153 (the "Basque marker."
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« Reply #80 on: December 22, 2011, 11:22:49 AM »

The Z196 North-South cluster has a presence in the Pyrenees area too, in the form of M153 (the "Basque marker."
There are also all those SRY2627 guys -- another subset of Z196, but not of the N/S cluster.

It has previously crossed my mind that Z196 might be somehow more closely related to L21 than to the other big P312 clades.  This occurred to me when I was scrolling through the R-P312 and Subclades project results, looking for the STR pattern of 10,11 at DYS 385ab.  A few of us (Larry Mayka called it the Pseudo N/S cluster) have that, and are Z196*.  But more instances of it occur under L21.  In either clade, it's way off-modal, and found in a small minority.  I've wondered whether it might point to a RecLOH triggered by some environmental factor or event in which some representatives those two P312 lineages were involved, such as mining (exposure to heavy metals or arsenic), survival of a relatively localized epidemic, or whatever makes those things happen.

I have no idea what processes are really involved; but I do think SNPs are more analogous to the cause of a condition, and STR patterns analogous to its symptoms.  A common pattern in this STR may not reflect the obvious "cause," i.e. the same SNP mutation; but such a pattern might still be a reflection of something held in common.  In my analogy, people get "flu-like symptoms" who don't actually suffer from influenza.

This may, of course, be poppycock.  But, hey, it's a forum.

And btw all that stuff about music, scales, Neanderthal flutes and whatnot (posted by A.D.) is very interesting to me, even though it seems pretty far off the topic of this thread.
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« Reply #81 on: December 22, 2011, 04:02:35 PM »

....  I've wondered whether it might point to a RecLOH triggered by some environmental factor or event in which some representatives those two P312 lineages were involved, such as mining (exposure to heavy metals or arsenic), survival of a relatively localized epidemic, or whatever makes those things happen.

I have no idea what processes are really involved; but I do think SNPs are more analogous to the cause of a condition, and STR patterns analogous to its symptoms.  ......
What I've heard from biochemists and the like is that most of these mutations were not likely to have come from identifiable causes and are essentially just random events.
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« Reply #82 on: December 22, 2011, 04:28:15 PM »

Which of them is Z253+? That is interesting because Lenares is of Spanish ancestry, but the rest are not.
I'll go through a little more background of how I have folks classified in the Haplotype_Data
spreadsheet into varieties/clusters.  They are speculative as they are just STRs so keep that in mind.

Here the variety labels and associated STR signatures for varieties that have at least one Z253+ and no Z253- people that I can find.
 
253-1189-T3 -  439<=11 459=8,9 456=15 (464=13,13,15,17)
253-1211 -  385a=12/13 439=11 447=24 449>=30 481<=20 (459=10,10) {Z253}
253-1117 -  511=11 557=17 usually (449>=30 442=13 439>=13 464x=14,$,16,$)
253-1117-554 -  511=11 557=17 (449>=30 442=13 439>=13 464=14,$,16,$) L554+
253-1130 -  385=11,11 449>=30 576>=19
253-1518 -  392>=15 448<=18 557>=17 444>=13 (607<=14)
253-unassigned

1189-T3 is the Irish Type III/L226+ folk.  1211 is really the Spanish cluster that you discovered. 253-unassigned are people who don't seem to fit in with anybody.

Below are the actual confirmed Z253+ people that are not L226+

fE4785____ Gerber___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ GVU3M___ Switzerland, Bern, Oberaargau, Herzogenbuchsee
fN93033___ Amuchástegui_____________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1211____________ 5ZZXA___ Spain, Basque Country, Biscay, Lea-Artibai, Markina
f58625____ Guerra___________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ 6FDJY___ Spain
f143916___ Rodriguez________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-unassigned______ NR6EY___ Spain
f92957____ Johnson__________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1130____________ GUXTG___ England, East Midlands, Lincolnshire, West Lindsey, Gainsborough
fN85107___ Hockings_________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ A5R59___ England, London
f120936___ Merry____________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ U38VD___ England, South East, Oxfordshire, Eynsham
f23996____ Pike_____________________ R-L21/Z253/L554______________ 253-554_____________ KNA9C___ England, South West, Dorset, Poole
f81795____ Whitehead________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ ___ England
f86680____ McConnell________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1130____________ HD5D5___ Ireland, Ulster
fN16295___ Ramsey___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ KU83A___ Ireland, Ulster
f99622____ Brown____________________ R-L21/Z253/L554______________ 253-554_____________ QEAEM___ Ireland
f19695____ McQuilkan________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1130____________ MN4KA___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyllshire, Kintyre, Clachan
f90442____ Law______________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1518____________ Z3WVN___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Ayrshire
f149770___ zzzUnkName_______________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-1518____________ 3QR7V___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Renfrewshire, Grennock
fN40675___ Hammers__________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ FFPST___ UK
f162176___ Falch(Ølfernes)__________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ 5G4G5___ Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes
fN26398___ Canady___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-1117____________ JEMDX___ zzzUnkOrigin
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 04:37:25 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #83 on: December 22, 2011, 04:44:32 PM »

Here is the 1117 group.  A number of them could be L554+, but there is at least one L554- in the bunch.
 
253-1117 -  511=11 557=17 usually (449>=30 442=13 439>=13 464x=14,$,16,$)
253-1117-554 -  511=11 557=17 (449>=30 442=13 439>=13 464=14,$,16,$) L554+

f143187___ Hearne___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ ZU28D___ England, London
f64652____ Burns____________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ H7TGQ___ England, North West, Merseyside, Liverpool
f23996____ Pike_____________________ R-L21/Z253/L554______________ 253-554_____________ KNA9C___ England, South West, Dorset, Poole
f142420___ Canny____________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ BT8AA___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Dunmore
fN24384___ Gilchrist________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ BQGR2___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Loughrea
f92712____ Hogan____________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ ___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo, Foxfod
f7894_____ Deigan___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ 5AKTH___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Kilkenny
f106554___ Conley___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ GT897___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Meath
f205635___ Murta____________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ EME4H___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Westmeath, Cummerstown
f79465____ Melican__________________ zzPredicted__________________ 253-1117____________ ___ Ireland, Munster, Co. Clare, Tulla
f57753____ Reynolds ________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ ___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Cavan (? or Leitrim - Briefne project)
f192984___ Ballisty_________________ R-L21*_______________________ 253-1117____________ WTZE7___ Ireland
f99622____ Brown____________________ R-L21/Z253/L554______________ 253-554_____________ QEAEM___ Ireland
f203486___ Cain_____________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ XNTHY___ Ireland
f145899___ Manning__________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ 249FU___ Ireland
f187458___ O'Neill__________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ 32H76___ Ireland
f186175___ Prendergast______________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ DK2AQ___ Ireland
f67988____ Reynolds_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ ___ Ireland
f24240____ Steedman_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ MQPFZ___ Scotland
f132118___ Bankston_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ FUD8X___ Sweden
f1238_____ Boone____________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ 6G984___ zzzUnkOrigin
fN26398___ Canady___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-1117____________ JEMDX___ zzzUnkOrigin
fN16269___ Canady __________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f162035___ Hafken___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ 657V7___ zzzUnkOrigin
f178343___ Mulligan_________________ zzPredicted__________________ 253-1117____________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f63332____ Reynolds_________________ zzPredicted__________________ 253-1117____________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f16153____ Robertson________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ PPF89___ zzzUnkOrigin
f141711___ Robertson________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f134798___ Roderick_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ AWETA___ zzzUnkOrigin
f175108___ zzzUnkName_______________ R-L21________________________ 253-1117____________ ATRD9___ zzzUnkOrigin

« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 04:46:04 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #84 on: December 22, 2011, 04:48:10 PM »

Here is the 1130 group.

253-1130 -  385=11,11 449>=30 576>=19


f92957____ Johnson__________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1130____________ GUXTG___ England, East Midlands, Lincolnshire, West Lindsey, Gainsborough
f86680____ McConnell________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1130____________ HD5D5___ Ireland, Ulster
f19695____ McQuilkan________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1130____________ MN4KA___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyllshire, Kintyre, Clachan
fN57947___ McConnell________________ zzPredicted__________________ 253-1130____________ HJ3MX___ Scotland
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« Reply #85 on: December 22, 2011, 04:51:49 PM »

Here is the 1211 group. I use to label them 1210SP but this is the group that Rich identified some time ago.

253-1211 -  385a=12/13 439=11 447=24 449>=30 481<=20 (459=10,10)

fN93033___ Amuchástegui_____________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-1210____________ 5ZZXA___ Spain, Basque Country, Biscay, Lea-Artibai, Markina
f58857____ Archuleta________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ BXPKT___ Spain, Basque Country, Guipuzcoa, Eibar
f128223___ Calzada__________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ BDAWP___ Spain
f66434____ Davila___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ 3SZYY___ Spain
f82247____ Garcia___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ ZQ6P9___ Spain
f67597____ Robles___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ G9CRT___ Spain
f167768___ Romero___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ 7K7QZ___ Spain
f46334____ Sampedro_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ PP6SJ___ Spain, Cantabria, Matienzo
f152157___ Lopez ___________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ ME66Q___ zzzUnkOrigin
f157776___ Manchego ________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f73233____ Valencia ________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1210____________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin

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« Reply #86 on: December 22, 2011, 04:54:08 PM »

Here is the 1518 group.

253-1518 -  392>=15 448<=18 557>=17 444>=13 (607<=14)

This is where the McCracken's fit in, and I think Lenares as well.

fN43805___ Lenares__________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518____________ JDTJC___ Spain
f94662____ Mitchell_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518____________ QM6HA___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Derry, Killymallaght
f14749____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518____________ 9TCMN___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Derry, Newtown Limavady
f90442____ Law______________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-1518____________ Z3WVN___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Ayrshire
f149770___ zzzUnkName_______________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-1518____________ 3QR7V___ Scotland, Strathclyde, Renfrewshire, Grennock
y6YSEA____ McDonald_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518____________ 6YSEA___ Scotland
f35786____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518____________ XQMXR___ zzzUnkOrigin
f28460____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518____________ A8HY7___ zzzUnkOrigin
f103494___ Robinson_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518____________ DRP7A___ zzzUnkOrigin

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« Reply #87 on: December 22, 2011, 04:57:49 PM »

This is the group I label

253-unassigned

They are Z253+ but I can't comfortably place them in a variety with an STR signature. This group, in itself, is an  indicator that Z253 is old.


fE4785____ Gerber___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ GVU3M___ Switzerland, Bern, Oberaargau, Herzogenbuchsee
f58625____ Guerra___________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ 6FDJY___ Spain
f143916___ Rodriguez________________ R-L21/Z253___________________ 253-unassigned______ NR6EY___ Spain
fN85107___ Hockings_________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ A5R59___ England, London
f120936___ Merry____________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ U38VD___ England, South East, Oxfordshire, Eynsham
f81795____ Whitehead________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ ___ England
fN16295___ Ramsey___________________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ KU83A___ Ireland, Ulster
fN40675___ Hammers__________________ R-L21/Z253*__________________ 253-unassigned______ FFPST___ UK
f162176___ Falch(Ølfernes)__________ R-L21/Z253**_________________ 253-unassigned______ 5G4G5___ Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes
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« Reply #88 on: December 22, 2011, 05:04:28 PM »

If you break down these Z253 potential varieties by country and exclude the Isles you get these counts.

Spain (11)
Switzerland (1)
Sweden (1)
Denmark (1)
Norway (1)

The ones in Spain that are specific seem to be Basque Country and Cantabria.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 05:05:12 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #89 on: December 22, 2011, 08:06:43 PM »

I wonder what it all means for the origin and history of Z253. It would be nice if we had enough continentals to get some idea where Z253 is oldest.
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« Reply #90 on: December 23, 2011, 07:26:23 AM »

The 1117 group seems predominantly Irish but confusingly include both a large Gaelic element and what seems to me to be likely Norman names

The 1130 group seems dominated by Hebridean Scots

The 1121 is clearly Spanish (apparently Basque/Cantabrian)

The 1518 group appears to be SW Scottish

Not easy to make sense of that.  I suppose in isles terms you could say the Irish Sea and Atlantic seaways are clearly predominant.  On the surface it looks like it travelled by those sea routes although the detail is very unclear.  I suspect that

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« Reply #91 on: December 23, 2011, 05:45:13 PM »

I have one question.  Does this NE Iberian group not belong to the STR cluster already identified by Rich, and was that not considered a young cluster?
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« Reply #92 on: December 23, 2011, 08:21:32 PM »

That's the one Mike called 1211. I think it was only about 1,000 years old or so.
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« Reply #93 on: December 23, 2011, 09:49:59 PM »

I'm just wondering if we know the age of L226 with reasonable confidence. If L226 is considerably older than the Spanish subclade of Z253, wouldn't this indicate that Z253 is unlikely to have originated in Iberia?
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« Reply #94 on: December 23, 2011, 10:42:36 PM »

Except for the fact that there are Spanish guys not in that cluster who are Z253+.
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« Reply #95 on: December 24, 2011, 08:00:04 AM »

Unfortunately, we do not have enough Z253xL226 results yet to be able to figure out where it is oldest. L226 was found first (via the WTY?) and has been aggressively pursued, due to the leadership of Dennis Wright, who has been an advocate and researcher for his Irish Type III group for quite some time. As a result, we have plenty of L226.

Z253, on the other hand, is new, and yet has already turned up in some continentals, both in the R-L21 Plus Project and the 1000 Genomes Project.

Personally, I'm betting it's continental in origin. Despite the very lopsided database we have, we've already found some continental Z253, and Iberian Z253 was part of the initial discovery of Z253 by the 1000 Genomes Project. In other words, we haven't had to dig or prod or wait for continental Z253; it's been in the forefront of that clade. The more British Isles subclades of L21 have been a different story.

I must confess that I also suspect that there is at least some basis in fact, however faint, in the Irish Book of Invasions, so movement from Iberia to Ireland would not surprise me. Of course, movement in the other direction is also possible, but I wouldn't think it would have left much of a genetic trail.
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« Reply #96 on: December 24, 2011, 11:33:25 AM »

It's not really correct to try to do an interclade age between L226 and Z253* since Z253* is not really a clade, but here it is:

L226&Z253* Interclade MRCA Age _ 2.8 (3.3-2.3)  N=92

L226 Clade MRCA Age ____________ 1.2 (1.3-1.1)  N=74
L226 Clade Coalescence Age _____ 1.1 (1.3-1.0)  N=74

Z253* Clade MRCA Age ___________ 3.5 (3.9-3.1)  N=18
Z253* Clade Coalescence Age ____ 2.9 (3.3-2.5)  N=18


L226 is pretty young.
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« Reply #97 on: December 24, 2011, 03:07:54 PM »

It's not really correct to try to do an interclade age between L226 and Z253* since Z253* is not really a clade, but here it is:

L226&Z253* Interclade MRCA Age _ 2.8 (3.3-2.3)  N=92

L226 Clade MRCA Age ____________ 1.2 (1.3-1.1)  N=74
L226 Clade Coalescence Age _____ 1.1 (1.3-1.0)  N=74

Z253* Clade MRCA Age ___________ 3.5 (3.9-3.1)  N=18
Z253* Clade Coalescence Age ____ 2.9 (3.3-2.5)  N=18


L226 is pretty young.

I think that is about roughly the same age as that Spanish 1211 cluster. I think of it as "the El Cid cluster", but mostly tongue in cheek. ;-)
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« Reply #98 on: December 28, 2011, 12:32:54 PM »

There seems to be quite a few Irish names and associations throughout  the 'the old Spanish world ' S. America etc I wonder if moving to Spain (for employment e.g ex-soldiers or crafts men) was an option for the Irish for a long time and there was no sudden drastic movement of people. Ireland and Spain  seem to have sea links going back to at least the bronze age  and after the reformation Spain was Ireland's closest Catholic neighbor.
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rms2
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« Reply #99 on: December 28, 2011, 01:34:57 PM »

There seems to be quite a few Irish names and associations throughout  the 'the old Spanish world ' S. America etc I wonder if moving to Spain (for employment e.g ex-soldiers or crafts men) was an option for the Irish for a long time and there was no sudden drastic movement of people. Ireland and Spain  seem to have sea links going back to at least the bronze age  and after the reformation Spain was Ireland's closest Catholic neighbor.

Are you attributing Z253 in Spain to Irish settlement there?

If that is the case, where are all the Irish subclades in Spain? M222? L226? DF21? DF23?

How about the Z253 elsewhere on the Continent and in Britain? More Irish settlement?

I certainly have nothing against the Irish (I am part Irish on both my father's and mother's sides), but I have been battling this kind of thing since soon after L21 was first discovered back in late 2008.

I know it is possible that the Z253 in Spain and elsewhere could be due to Irish immigration, but each time I read some new post attributing all or part of L21 to Irish immigration it's like someone dragging his fingernails across a chalkboard.

I apologize for that reaction, but I can't help it. L21 was written off and marginalized before much evidence was in. Its high frequency in Ireland was used to argue that it originated there and therefore could not be truly Celtic but some sort of Stone Age aboriginal.

If it turns out Z253 originated in Ireland, fine. But let's have some more evidence, shall we?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 01:37:00 PM by rms2 » Logged

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