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Author Topic: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226  (Read 51275 times)
rms2
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« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2011, 08:38:17 PM »

FTDNA sent out the bulk emails sooner than I expected. Already a couple of our members of Spanish descent have ordered Z253.
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« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2011, 10:41:21 AM »

FTDNA sent out the bulk emails sooner than I expected. Already a couple of our members of Spanish descent have ordered Z253.
Cool. Great work!
I've been in contact with the Irish Type IV/Cont web site contact as Gerber is close to fitting within those guys.  I think we'll see an order or two from these guys.
BTW, Gerber is from Switzerland. I'm jumping the gun a bit here, but if Irish Type IV came out Z253+ and it is supposed to have a "continental" scattering I wonder if this is related to La Tene?
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« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2011, 12:47:12 PM »

On the crossing from Belfast to Stranrare The is a large peak rising from the water in the center of the bay it's quite symmetrical may be this or something like it was the  tower of Brogan and was passed down and elaborated over time. You could only guess how old the origins are.
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« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2011, 02:04:30 PM »

I'm putting this up just in case anyone's interested.
there have been quite a few studies done on the origins as Irish (Celtic ) music.
The links involved  were Coptic Christians who may have influenced church music which was probably linked to oral tradition. Shanels solo performance Irish music thought to be the oldest is very middle Eastern/N African sounding. Pentatonic based it also has a vocal swell technique that is only found in Arab and N.African music. Some of the Hymn's of Stowaway island a Gaelic speaking Protestant community are remarkably similar. They avoided all Renaissance and Reformation changes. In fact to my ears sound more middle Eastern/N.African. The hermit monk tradition is thought to be of Coptic christian origin. The boat building and sail making  methods  of W Ireland seem to have the same origins as the music as does the 3 dot patter  as depicted on garments tattooing and the style of head shaving. There was a load more I can't recall. The point is that there are Mediterranean influence is religious , musical, oral and literal. The fact that they are in ares that have been so important in the development of cultural identity. It has also been put that Coptic spoke used a language that was close or a descendant of ancient Egyptian.  This could be where the Miles/Scotia idea came from. The influence of the church in Ireland can be over estimated (the same can be said for Western art music).  It is probable that the  Mediterranean and biblical places were inserted  into 'Celtic' legends before they were written down . The Hermit monks would have left little or no DNA but an overwhelming cultural presence.
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« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2011, 08:24:07 PM »

FTDNA sent out the bulk emails sooner than I expected. Already a couple of our members of Spanish descent have ordered Z253.
Cool. Great work!
I've been in contact with the Irish Type IV/Cont web site contact as Gerber is close to fitting within those guys.  I think we'll see an order or two from these guys.
BTW, Gerber is from Switzerland. I'm jumping the gun a bit here, but if Irish Type IV came out Z253+ and it is supposed to have a "continental" scattering I wonder if this is related to La Tene?

That's a good question.

A few more of our Iberian guys have ordered Z253 since my last post.
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« Reply #55 on: December 13, 2011, 12:45:23 PM »

The hermit monk tradition is thought to be of Coptic christian origin.

"The influence of Asia Minor and of Egypt came to Ireland through Gaul, as well as through the trading routes by sea.  The Irish tribal and clan system seems to have found an affinity with the monasticism of Egypt.  A marked similarity between the monastic tradition in Egypt and in Ireland was that the “monastery” consisted of a number of dwellings, mainly huts, which both clerical and lay monks lived. The lay monks did not live an ascetic lifestyle, many of whom were married and had families.  The outlook was similar in that the monks from both Egypt and in Ireland were more like missionaries, rather than priests."

"The monks from these numerous Irish schools and monasteries travelled across the seas to the mainland and founded further monasteries.  This exodus of monks was to encourage learning in a world which was mostly being overrun by barbaric hoards, displaying little interest in preserving learning, philosophy, or of history.  Hence the term, the Dark Ages, was born to describe these times.  These missionary monks travelled far and wide, establishing monasteries as far afield as Switzerland, and northern and southern Italy.  Learning and teaching seem to have taken priority over and above the need to convert.  This dogma appears to have been to encourage all manner of ideology and theology.  Unlike the Roman Church, which had proscribed various books, a bar on writings and exclusion of apocryphal texts deemed heretical, the Celtic Church seems to have embraced these ideas, and allowed various aspects thereof to become integral to their teaching."

"There seems to have been a direct exchange between Egypt and Ireland, with mention of monks from Egypt being in Ireland and vice versa.  A guidebook written for Irish monks travelling to Egypt, detailing the Pyramids, and for visiting the desert fathers, was written, and a copy survives to this day, located in the Bibliotheque Nationale, in Paris.  Egypt became a centre for pilgrimage by the Irish monks, with one of the latest records we have of such a "pilgrimage" having been made in the thirteenth century.  Numerous examples of early Egyptian Christian/Coptic art, symbolism, and motifs would appear to have found their way into that of the Celtic Church.  Illuminated manuscripts such as the Lindisfarne gospels, the books of Kells and of Deer, all have design work of a distinctly Eastern influence and pattern, as opposed to that of a Roman design, in their ornamentation.  The same is true for a number of the stone crosses found in Ireland.  Coptic textual forms are to be found in the book of Dimma. "

I have visited many of these monastic centres on the continent. Some evolved into huge monastic schools with thousands of students. Others became the embryonic centres of new towns such as Koln, Wurzburg, Salzburg, St Gallen, Bobbio etc. This infrastructure of Celtic monastic settlements thrived during the 1,000 year Holy Roman Empire, 800 - 1,800.


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R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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« Reply #56 on: December 13, 2011, 03:12:44 PM »

There has been a lot of talk about Christianity in Ireland  coming before the St Padriac  era (by this I mean what you have described) Why I mentioned music is because  there are cretin features that that do not occur in non coastal Europe. There is a long history of story/poetry/song. The Iliad is thought to have such origins. There is a Greek influence parts of the bible have the same phrases. This gets really complicated I got the music idea but a lot of the literature and history I went a bit beyond me e.g. the ancient grammar.
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« Reply #57 on: December 14, 2011, 10:37:10 AM »

I recieved my Z253+ this morning.  Hopefully, some more will come in today.
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« Reply #58 on: December 14, 2011, 02:38:26 PM »

I recieved my Z253+ this morning.  Hopefully, some more will come in today.
Congratulations!
It looks like you are negative for L226.  Are you testing for L554?

I think an important guy to watch is f124852 Peter Leonard, b.1868, Co. Sligo, Connacht, Ireland. he's Irish TIV/Cont and he is supposedly ordering Z253.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 02:41:15 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: December 14, 2011, 04:41:51 PM »

Congratulations!
It looks like you are negative for L226.  Are you testing for L554?

I think an important guy to watch is f124852 Peter Leonard, b.1868, Co. Sligo, Connacht, Ireland. he's Irish TIV/Cont and he is supposedly ordering Z253.

Yes, my curiousity will keep reminding me.
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« Reply #60 on: December 14, 2011, 08:27:53 PM »

You're in the R-Z253 (L226-) category at the R-L21 Plus Project now.
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« Reply #61 on: December 14, 2011, 08:39:03 PM »

The hermit monk tradition is thought to be of Coptic christian origin.

"The influence of Asia Minor and of Egypt came to Ireland through Gaul, as well as through the trading routes by sea.  The Irish tribal and clan system seems to have found an affinity with the monasticism of Egypt.  A marked similarity between the monastic tradition in Egypt and in Ireland was that the “monastery” consisted of a number of dwellings, mainly huts, which both clerical and lay monks lived. The lay monks did not live an ascetic lifestyle, many of whom were married and had families.  The outlook was similar in that the monks from both Egypt and in Ireland were more like missionaries, rather than priests."

"The monks from these numerous Irish schools and monasteries travelled across the seas to the mainland and founded further monasteries.  This exodus of monks was to encourage learning in a world which was mostly being overrun by barbaric hoards, displaying little interest in preserving learning, philosophy, or of history.  Hence the term, the Dark Ages, was born to describe these times.  These missionary monks travelled far and wide, establishing monasteries as far afield as Switzerland, and northern and southern Italy.  Learning and teaching seem to have taken priority over and above the need to convert.  This dogma appears to have been to encourage all manner of ideology and theology.  Unlike the Roman Church, which had proscribed various books, a bar on writings and exclusion of apocryphal texts deemed heretical, the Celtic Church seems to have embraced these ideas, and allowed various aspects thereof to become integral to their teaching."

"There seems to have been a direct exchange between Egypt and Ireland, with mention of monks from Egypt being in Ireland and vice versa.  A guidebook written for Irish monks travelling to Egypt, detailing the Pyramids, and for visiting the desert fathers, was written, and a copy survives to this day, located in the Bibliotheque Nationale, in Paris.  Egypt became a centre for pilgrimage by the Irish monks, with one of the latest records we have of such a "pilgrimage" having been made in the thirteenth century.  Numerous examples of early Egyptian Christian/Coptic art, symbolism, and motifs would appear to have found their way into that of the Celtic Church.  Illuminated manuscripts such as the Lindisfarne gospels, the books of Kells and of Deer, all have design work of a distinctly Eastern influence and pattern, as opposed to that of a Roman design, in their ornamentation.  The same is true for a number of the stone crosses found in Ireland.  Coptic textual forms are to be found in the book of Dimma. "

I have visited many of these monastic centres on the continent. Some evolved into huge monastic schools with thousands of students. Others became the embryonic centres of new towns such as Koln, Wurzburg, Salzburg, St Gallen, Bobbio etc. This infrastructure of Celtic monastic settlements thrived during the 1,000 year Holy Roman Empire, 800 - 1,800.

Look, I've heard this stuff before, but I don't buy it, and there's a good reason why.

The Copts accept only the first three ecumenical councils of the Church. They are Monophysites, and parted ways with the Catholic Church over the Council of Chalcedon, A.D. 451, which concludes with the famous Tome of Pope St. Leo the Great about the two Natures of Christ, fully Divine and fully human. I'll spare you further details.

If the Irish church and its monks had really been influenced by the Copts, then they too should have been Monophysite and anti-Chalcedonian, but, as far as I know, they never were. No such controversy ever arose within the Irish church or is mentioned in its history.

But perhaps you are talking about an influence that predates the Council of Chalcedon and that ceased after it.

Anyway, St. Patrick was alive when the council of Chalcedon took place, and he is supposed to have presided over the full and final conversion of the Irish during the second half of the 5th century. That means Coptic monks coming to Ireland would have probably arrived after the Council of Chalcedon. It is doubtful they would have been welcomed by St. Patrick or by other monks and clergy trained by him.

I just think the whole Egyptian monk thing is fanciful and probably very much fictional.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 08:39:26 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2011, 06:13:31 PM »

I think the idea is that the Med influence does pre-date the  Council of Chalcedon. It was the music that  I looked at and wasn't related to DNA or archeology etc. It just seemed to me (probably wrongly) that the music has more S Mediterranean influence than the y-DNA seems to. The supposed pagan Celtic pantheon is close to the Germanic possibly more so than to Greeco-Roman. The music far less so. As for the ideology, I wasn't proposing that Ireland was ever Coptic  but  that their 'style' was e.g. they sang Roman Hymns to Coptic melodies.   
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« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2011, 08:20:16 PM »

If there was contact with Egyptian monks prior to Chalcedon, it couldn't have been much prior to it, since the Irish were only converted to Christianity around that same time.

I like Irish folk music, and I don't hear the eastern influence, but I'm not a music expert.
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« Reply #64 on: December 16, 2011, 01:40:14 PM »

I'm not talking about the most commonly heard Irish folk reels etc  diddly-aye as it is some times described. I was  thinking  shanels solo  voice unaccompanied  music. I don't want to get to technical but you know Do Re Mi So Fa La Ti Do the major scale the natural minor starts from La The difference between Western and African is Do and So if you visualize the scale as a ladder each rung being a pitch Do and So would be flexible in the African method. This is  incomplete and hideously crude but it 'll give you a glimpse of what I'm talking about. The theory isn't mine, I never gave it much thought until I header Rory Gallagher  mixing  Blues folk and Arabic music seamlessly using a slide on the guitar to get the in-between notes. Also I think I used the word Coptic too loosely. As for the conversion, the idea goes that there was a Christian presence of some sort in Ireland before St Padraic. It's the music bit that stomps me if any one can put me right please do. If your interested a guy called Bob Quinn (I think)  did a program called 'Atlantean' in which some of the subjects are tackled and dished its on You Tube and thev shanels are featured.
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« Reply #65 on: December 16, 2011, 04:00:21 PM »

I think I hear more of an eastern tinge in some of the more archaic Gaelic music.  This Bulgarian folk song is worth a listen to.

http://www.foldedspace.org/files/bulgarian_shepherdess.mp3
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« Reply #66 on: December 16, 2011, 04:49:13 PM »

By 'archaic Gaelic music' you mean Western Scottish Isles thats exactly what I'm talking about  that 'tinge' is found down the West coast of Ireland. If you compair there scale to the Pythagorean scale (I think Wikipedia has an audio clip) you can hear the difference.
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« Reply #67 on: December 16, 2011, 05:14:03 PM »

I just came across some thing about a Neanderthal flute 43,000 years old its supposed to be diatonic Do ,Re, Mi etc most primitive music (world wide) is pentatonic e.g  A, C, D, E, G, A. the C is the note with the flexible rung. (Eb minor pentatonic is all the black notes on the piano) Most Blues fans will know this. Surely its doubtful that western music has its origins in Neanderthal music.
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« Reply #68 on: December 16, 2011, 06:12:29 PM »

I don't know about shanels but there is sean nós music on the western coast of Ireland, unaccompanied.  The degree of ornamentation varies from Donegal to Galway to Clare. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean-nós_song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTj8yMK6HE8

Singing the in between notes rather than the usual intervals is melismatic, now overdone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melisma

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6791133

I wonder if it came to the US from Africa or was picked up from the Gaelic groups in the early days of the US, like tap dancing.   


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« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2011, 07:05:51 PM »

Sean nos Is correct my misspelling I'm not sure if  if sean nos were carried to the U.S. or not. Melismatic was relapsed syllabic form in the Reformation this was quite a big thing with most protestants. In fact Erasmus and the Renascence Humanists were going of melisma as it became too ornate the words were taking 2nd place to the music. A lot of Puritan music was sombre and in minor keys or modes a notable exception was the Shakers who are credited with a lot of the up beat rhythms and major melodies I think this is very evident in what U.S. Country and Bluegrass, I've heard (not much it's not my thing).
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2011, 07:20:09 PM »

By 'archaic Gaelic music' you mean Western Scottish Isles thats exactly what I'm talking about  that 'tinge' is found down the West coast of Ireland. If you compair there scale to the Pythagorean scale (I think Wikipedia has an audio clip) you can hear the difference.

This is what I would call the standard Gaelic lament from Ireland and Scotland.  Loads of them sound very similar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k-hFLzg5I4
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« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2011, 07:44:41 PM »

Back to Z253.

I guess there is something to the Iberian connection, because, of four L21 men of Iberian descent who got Z253 results today, three of them are positive:

Amuchastegui, kit N93033

Rodriguez, kit 143916

Saldaña, kit 58625

Interesting, since Z253 is upstream of L226, which is primarily Irish. These guys do not have the characteristic L226 haplotype.

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« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2011, 09:07:44 AM »

Back to Z253.

I guess there is something to the Iberian connection, because, of four L21 men of Iberian descent who got Z253 results today, three of them are positive:

Amuchastegui, kit N93033

Rodriguez, kit 143916

Saldaña, kit 58625

Interesting, since Z253 is upstream of L226, which is primarily Irish. These guys do not have the characteristic L226 haplotype.


I thought that was big news, but no one reacted to it.

So, did Z253 get to the British Isles from Spain or vice versa?
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« Reply #73 on: December 17, 2011, 12:43:47 PM »

Back to Z253.

I guess there is something to the Iberian connection, because, of four L21 men of Iberian descent who got Z253 results today, three of them are positive:

Amuchastegui, kit N93033

Rodriguez, kit 143916

Saldaña, kit 58625

Interesting, since Z253 is upstream of L226, which is primarily Irish. These guys do not have the characteristic L226 haplotype.


I thought that was big news, but no one reacted to it.

So, did Z253 get to the British Isles from Spain or vice versa?

If the Iberian version is upstream and the STR's are very different then it must be a pretty old connection rather than some wild geese thing.  Have people from other countries tested for it?  As usual I suppose few French have tested.  Also, is there enough Z253 and derived people to do a variance calculation?  

If it is an ancient Iberian connection then the Irish type III being in the extreme SW of Ireland would indeed be the place you would expect any such connection in Ireland.  It kind of reminds me of P314.2 in that as well as a distinct McMartin cluster in Ireland and Scotland there are continental people outwith the cluster but with the SNP who must be distantly related.  So, as it stands the move from a to b must be pretty old. 
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 12:50:24 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #74 on: December 17, 2011, 01:42:51 PM »

Back to Z253.

I guess there is something to the Iberian connection, because, of four L21 men of Iberian descent who got Z253 results today, three of them are positive:

Amuchastegui, kit N93033

Rodriguez, kit 143916

Saldaña, kit 58625

Interesting, since Z253 is upstream of L226, which is primarily Irish. These guys do not have the characteristic L226 haplotype.


I thought that was big news, but no one reacted to it.

So, did Z253 get to the British Isles from Spain or vice versa?

I think Z253xL226 is some of the earliest L21 from what I've seen from the non-distinct haplotypes and the genetic distances among some of the members.  Doesn't this make 5 Iberians counting the 1000 Genomes guys?

With a Swiss and a Norwegian combined with the Iberians it looks like the start of some kind of Beaker or Bronze age pattern.  If several Germans and French come in Z253+, I would lean towards the Beaker period of 2500-1800.  If it remains more of a coastal pattern with the Swiss as an outlier, I would lean towards the slightly later Bronze age trade networks.  For now, I don't see a "wild geese" type scenario for two reasons 1) L226 and the more expansive downstream subclades have even less continentals, if at all. 2) Again, the variance is still too high with Z253xL226 to suggest a younger founder effect.

Of course, it is still early and everything could change.
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