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Author Topic: R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226  (Read 55444 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: October 15, 2011, 09:40:28 AM »

A new project has started for Z253+ people.  It is found downstream of L21.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-Z253/default.aspx?section=yresults

My understanding is that it was found in the 1000 Human Genome Project in people of probable Iberian descent.
Quote from: David Reynolds
1000 Genomes samples HG01136 (Colombian in Colombia population) and NA19717 (Mexican-American in Los Angelos population) are:
L21+ Z253+ DF23- M222- DF21- DF5- L96- L159.2-
L226- L513- M37- P314.2- Z254- Z255- L144-

FJames spotted this earlier. An L226+ person has Z253+. L226 is about as Irish as you can get. Its concentrated in Munster and is associated with the Irish Type III/Dalcassian STR signature.

Quote from: Dennis Wright
A Dalcassian (Dál gCais) Signature? There is sufficient evidence now  that this clade is that of the Dalcassian clans of Clare, Limerick and  Tipperary, the principal family of whom are the O´Briens.  I am aware  that an O´Brien who has impeccable pedigree through the Barons of  Inchiquin and of Thomond back to Brian Boru and hence to Cormac Cas is a  member of our cluster which is good confirming evidence that Irish Type  III is indeed Dalcassian.  Many Irish Type III surnames have  connections with the O´Briens, such as Bryant, Kennedy, MacNamara,  O´Donnell, Butler, Casey, Hogan and McGrath.  So Cormac Cas´ ancestors,  may very well be the progenitors of this cluster.
http://www.irishtype3dna.org/index.php#origin

Have we finally found our Milesians?
Quote from: Wikipedia
The Lebor Gabála (Book of Invasions — probably first written in the second half of the 11th century AD) describes the origin of the Gaelic people. They descended from Goídel Glas, a Scythian who was present at the fall of the Tower of Babel, and Scota, a daughter of a pharaoh of Egypt[1]. Two branches of their descendants left Egypt and Scythia at the time of the Exodus of Moses, and after a period of wandering the shores of the Mediterranean (including sustained settlements at Miletus and Zancle) arrived in the Iberian Peninsula, where they settled after several battles. One of them, Breogán, built a tower at a place called Brigantia (probably in the coast of Galicia, near A Coruña  (Corunna), which was then "Brigantia" (today Betanzos) and where a  Celtic tribe called "Brigantes" is attested in ancient times — see Tower of Hercules) from the top of which he, or his son Íth, first saw Ireland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_%28Irish%29

There are quite a few R1b1a2 guys in the Galicia project.  It would be nice if more of them deep claded tested.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/GaliciaDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

Oh yeah, almost forgot.  Maybe we should have King Tutankhamun SNP tested for Z253... LOL
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 09:45:42 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2011, 10:47:56 AM »

A new project has started for Z253+ people.  It is found downstream of L21.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-Z253/default.aspx?section=yresults

My understanding is that it was found in the 1000 Human Genome Project in people of probable Iberian descent.
Quote from: David Reynolds
1000 Genomes samples HG01136 (Colombian in Colombia population) and NA19717 (Mexican-American in Los Angelos population) are:
L21+ Z253+ DF23- M222- DF21- DF5- L96- L159.2-
L226- L513- M37- P314.2- Z254- Z255- L144-

FJames spotted this earlier. An L226+ person has Z253+. L226 is about as Irish as you can get. Its concentrated in Munster and is associated with the Irish Type III/Dalcassian STR signature.

Quote from: Dennis Wright
A Dalcassian (Dál gCais) Signature? There is sufficient evidence now  that this clade is that of the Dalcassian clans of Clare, Limerick and  Tipperary, the principal family of whom are the O´Briens.  I am aware  that an O´Brien who has impeccable pedigree through the Barons of  Inchiquin and of Thomond back to Brian Boru and hence to Cormac Cas is a  member of our cluster which is good confirming evidence that Irish Type  III is indeed Dalcassian.  Many Irish Type III surnames have  connections with the O´Briens, such as Bryant, Kennedy, MacNamara,  O´Donnell, Butler, Casey, Hogan and McGrath.  So Cormac Cas´ ancestors,  may very well be the progenitors of this cluster.
http://www.irishtype3dna.org/index.php#origin

Have we finally found our Milesians?
Quote from: Wikipedia
The Lebor Gabála (Book of Invasions — probably first written in the second half of the 11th century AD) describes the origin of the Gaelic people. They descended from Goídel Glas, a Scythian who was present at the fall of the Tower of Babel, and Scota, a daughter of a pharaoh of Egypt[1]. Two branches of their descendants left Egypt and Scythia at the time of the Exodus of Moses, and after a period of wandering the shores of the Mediterranean (including sustained settlements at Miletus and Zancle) arrived in the Iberian Peninsula, where they settled after several battles. One of them, Breogán, built a tower at a place called Brigantia (probably in the coast of Galicia, near A Coruña  (Corunna), which was then "Brigantia" (today Betanzos) and where a  Celtic tribe called "Brigantes" is attested in ancient times — see Tower of Hercules) from the top of which he, or his son Íth, first saw Ireland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_%28Irish%29

There are quite a few R1b1a2 guys in the Galicia project.  It would be nice if more of them deep claded tested.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/GaliciaDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

Oh yeah, almost forgot.  Maybe we should have King Tutankhamun SNP tested for Z253... LOL

Thank you for this post, Mike. Z253 and L226 just got a lot more interesting!
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


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eochaidh
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« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2011, 02:51:28 PM »

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Although the Milesian story has been accepted by many scholars to have been written to make a false genealogy of the Irish race in order to tie them with a Biblical origin, I believe the myth was based on oral tradition that may have had substance. I also think that island people have an awareness through this oral tradition of where people arrived from.

It would seem to me that early seafarers all along the Bay of Biscay would have intermingled, through trade and exploration with people from the Isles. Even if early seafarers from what is now the coast of Spain and Portugal hugged the coastline they would have put themselves in position to travel from what is now Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

I have a man, Raymond Keogh, in the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project, who is L176.2+. Isn't this SNP largely connected with Iberia? He is born, raised and living in Dublin. We also have two P312* members in our Project connected to Connaght. I wonder what their connection is to the Continent.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe L21******** (*********)
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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2011, 06:43:09 PM »

That is interesting. Maybe I should email our Iberians and ask them to consider testing for Z253.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2011, 04:54:14 PM »

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Although the Milesian story has been accepted by many scholars to have been written to make a false genealogy of the Irish race in order to tie them with a Biblical origin, I believe the myth was based on oral tradition that may have had substance. I also think that island people have an awareness through this oral tradition of where people arrived from.

It would seem to me that early seafarers all along the Bay of Biscay would have intermingled, through trade and exploration with people from the Isles. Even if early seafarers from what is now the coast of Spain and Portugal hugged the coastline they would have put themselves in position to travel from what is now Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

I have a man, Raymond Keogh, in the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project, who is L176.2+. Isn't this SNP largely connected with Iberia? He is born, raised and living in Dublin. We also have two P312* members in our Project connected to Connaght. I wonder what their connection is to the Continent.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe L21******** (*********)

Apparently though there is a lot of evidence that Biscay was avoided like the plague as it is very dangerous for sailors.  It is reckoned that in ancient times sailors went directly between Brittany and Galicia in a straight line.  This is shown by the distribution of artefacts as well as the Roman lighthouse in A'Coruna in Galicia which is orientated in such a way that it makes no sense unless the traffic was avoiding Biscay.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2011, 06:20:33 PM »

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Although the Milesian story has been accepted by many scholars to have been written to make a false genealogy of the Irish race in order to tie them with a Biblical origin, I believe the myth was based on oral tradition that may have had substance. I also think that island people have an awareness through this oral tradition of where people arrived from.

It would seem to me that early seafarers all along the Bay of Biscay would have intermingled, through trade and exploration with people from the Isles. Even if early seafarers from what is now the coast of Spain and Portugal hugged the coastline they would have put themselves in position to travel from what is now Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

I have a man, Raymond Keogh, in the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project, who is L176.2+. Isn't this SNP largely connected with Iberia? He is born, raised and living in Dublin. We also have two P312* members in our Project connected to Connaght. I wonder what their connection is to the Continent.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe L21******** (*********)

Apparently though there is a lot of evidence that Biscay was avoided like the plague as it is very dangerous for sailors.  It is reckoned that in ancient times sailors went directly between Brittany and Galicia in a straight line.  This is shown by the distribution of artefacts as well as the Roman lighthouse in A'Coruna in Galicia which is orientated in such a way that it makes no sense unless the traffic was avoiding Biscay.
That's what I'm saying. I believe seafarers all along, meaning all along, the Bay of Biscay, which would include Galicia and Brittany, would have been familiar with trade routes that included going from Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.
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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2011, 07:25:21 PM »

If you look at the distribution of L21 in general, it looks like something that was spread by seafarers, from northern Spain to the west coast of Norway. I'm not saying northern Spain was the point of origin; I was just describing the extent of it.
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jonesge
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« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2011, 05:03:18 PM »

Mike said: "FJames spotted this earlier. An L226+ person has Z253+. L226 is about as Irish as you can get."

I hope to prove Mike correct and there is no Irish in this Welsh Jones.

I am a Welsh Jones L371+

I have a Z253 SNP test in at FTDNA and I am confident (95%) it will be negative.

L371 is the last L21 son subclade being tested prior to Z253 treeing by ISOGG

Here is how the L371 "signature" STR modal values compare to L21 corresponding STR modal values:

STR  / L371 / L21  / GD
DYS448 / 17 / 19  /2
DYS456 / 14 / 16 / 2
DYS450 / 10 / 8  / 2
DYS716 / 22 / 26 / 4
TOTAL GD  /        10

My belief is that Z253+ individuals will be DYS456=15

However, a Z253+ / L226+ person believes this: Both L226+ and L554+ share DYS456<=15

He says: L371's DYS456=14 satisfies that requirement - it just mutated again below DYS456=15.  L21 started with DYS456=16.  Next came DYS456 (16 to 15) which is shared by L226+, L554+ and possibly the ancestor of L371.  L371 later mutated again from DYS456 (15 to 14). Since L371 started with L21 - there has to be some intermediate mutation from DYS456 (16 to 15) prior to the MRCA of L371 of DYS456=14.

He goes on to say: Z253 appears to be a very broad SNP - similar to DF21. Z253 will probably include L555, L371 and many other L21* submissions under Z253. I would not be surprised if yet another son of L21 gets put under Z253 as well. There is probably at least a 50/50 chance of testing positive for Z253 if any submission has 456<=15. It is only a 50/50 chance as it is possible that there may be parallel or backwards mutations of the same marker that would be false hits. A single marker is not a very reliable DNA fingerprint as a DNA fingerprint with four or five mutations.

Can anyone assist here?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 12:16:46 PM by jonesge » Logged
Jdean
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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2011, 02:40:15 PM »

DYS456 seems a tad unstable to base a theory like this on and almost 40% of the Z253 neg results in the R-L21 project are 15 at that loci.

Either way Z253 + or - it won't stop you being Welsh :)

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OConnor
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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2011, 03:24:36 PM »

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Although the Milesian story has been accepted by many scholars to have been written to make a false genealogy of the Irish race in order to tie them with a Biblical origin, I believe the myth was based on oral tradition that may have had substance. I also think that island people have an awareness through this oral tradition of where people arrived from.

It would seem to me that early seafarers all along the Bay of Biscay would have intermingled, through trade and exploration with people from the Isles. Even if early seafarers from what is now the coast of Spain and Portugal hugged the coastline they would have put themselves in position to travel from what is now Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

I have a man, Raymond Keogh, in the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project, who is L176.2+. Isn't this SNP largely connected with Iberia? He is born, raised and living in Dublin. We also have two P312* members in our Project connected to Connaght. I wonder what their connection is to the Continent.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe L21******** (*********)

But wasn't Ireland supposedly visible from Mel's Tower. If they did invade perhaps they didn't come from Spain but someplace closer? England? Scotland? or Wales?

 
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 03:27:36 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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eochaidh
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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2011, 04:25:38 PM »

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Although the Milesian story has been accepted by many scholars to have been written to make a false genealogy of the Irish race in order to tie them with a Biblical origin, I believe the myth was based on oral tradition that may have had substance. I also think that island people have an awareness through this oral tradition of where people arrived from.

It would seem to me that early seafarers all along the Bay of Biscay would have intermingled, through trade and exploration with people from the Isles. Even if early seafarers from what is now the coast of Spain and Portugal hugged the coastline they would have put themselves in position to travel from what is now Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

I have a man, Raymond Keogh, in the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project, who is L176.2+. Isn't this SNP largely connected with Iberia? He is born, raised and living in Dublin. We also have two P312* members in our Project connected to Connaght. I wonder what their connection is to the Continent.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe L21******** (*********)

But wasn't Ireland supposedly visible from Mel's Tower. If they did invade perhaps they didn't come from Spain but someplace closer? England? Scotland? or Wales?

 
Did who invade? I'm just suggesting that since there seems to be a connection between Ireland and Iberia with Z253, that the connection could have been made through trade routes along the Bay of Biscay.

In general, I think that invasion gets all the "press" and trade route interaction gets under played.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2011, 11:00:00 AM »

I think a pattern of a scattering of minor clades in low numbers away from their main concentration is the pattern you would expect from trade and friendly political contact along trade routes.  However, it should become clearer what was going on when each clade has enough identified people to compare variance in each area.  The Irish clade with this marker is not very old if I recall correctly.  So, I suppose the origin point of Z153 could be Ireland, Iberia or somewhere in between.  To early to say. 
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2011, 06:51:28 PM »

DYS456 seems a tad unstable to base a theory like this on and almost 40% of the Z253 neg results in the R-L21 project are 15 at that loci.

I proposed coupling DYS439=11 with DYS456=15 as a "slightly" more stable theory for Z253+ (both L554 and both L226 Z253+ folks to date have these off-modals). There's only one Z253- person in the R-21 project with these values, but that kit #19583 (also in the McWho project), is pretty far off on other markers (such as DYS385=15,15 instead of 11-14). But, you never know. Of course, I'm hoping for an upstream SNP for L583, and Z253 seems as good a shot as any.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2011, 07:34:45 PM »

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Although the Milesian story has been accepted by many scholars to have been written to make a false genealogy of the Irish race in order to tie them with a Biblical origin, I believe the myth was based on oral tradition that may have had substance. I also think that island people have an awareness through this oral tradition of where people arrived from.

It would seem to me that early seafarers all along the Bay of Biscay would have intermingled, through trade and exploration with people from the Isles. Even if early seafarers from what is now the coast of Spain and Portugal hugged the coastline they would have put themselves in position to travel from what is now Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

I have a man, Raymond Keogh, in the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project, who is L176.2+. Isn't this SNP largely connected with Iberia? He is born, raised and living in Dublin. We also have two P312* members in our Project connected to Connaght. I wonder what their connection is to the Continent.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe L21******** (*********)

But wasn't Ireland supposedly visible from Mel's Tower. If they did invade perhaps they didn't come from Spain but someplace closer? England? Scotland? or Wales?

 

lord no!  Its nearly 1000 miles from Ireland to Spain.  Its not visible. 
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OConnor
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« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2011, 10:05:35 PM »

Milesians..."arrived in the Iberian Peninsula, where they settled after several battles. One of them, Breogán, built a tower at a place called Brigantia (probably in the coast of Galicia, near A Coruña (Corunna), which was then "Brigantia" (today Betanzos) and where a Celtic tribe called "Brigantes" is attested in ancient times — see Tower of Hercules) from the top of which he, or his son Íth, first saw Ireland" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_(Irish)


« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 10:06:07 PM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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seferhabahir
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2011, 08:47:53 PM »

I proposed coupling DYS439=11 with DYS456=15 as a "slightly" more stable theory for Z253+ (both L554 and both L226 Z253+ folks to date have these off-modals). There's only one Z253- person in the R-21 project with these values, but that kit #19583 (also in the McWho project), is pretty far off on other markers (such as DYS385=15,15 instead of 11-14). But, you never know. Of course, I'm hoping for an upstream SNP for L583, and Z253 seems as good a shot as any.

I'm taking bets the Baltic Cluster ends up under Z253. I just took another glance at the R-L21 tree from June 19, 2011, and three groups that branch off very close together are Irish Type III, 9919-A#1, and 1111EE. Bonham's are also close by, so maybe these are all old(ish) branches. You never know.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2011, 05:25:40 PM »

Milesians..."arrived in the Iberian Peninsula, where they settled after several battles. One of them, Breogán, built a tower at a place called Brigantia (probably in the coast of Galicia, near A Coruña (Corunna), which was then "Brigantia" (today Betanzos) and where a Celtic tribe called "Brigantes" is attested in ancient times — see Tower of Hercules) from the top of which he, or his son Íth, first saw Ireland" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_(Irish)




I know the myth but Ireland is not visible from there.  I have actually visited the tower in A'Coruna which is in fact a Roman light house called the tower of Hercules http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Hercules and you can see nothing but open sea from it.  Its also nowhere near enough old to have been around at the time of the Celtic settlement of Ireland. Nice place though.  
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 05:27:55 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
OConnor
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« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2011, 04:47:32 AM »

my thought was..if they saw Ireland from a tower, the tower must have been closer than Spain.

(Perhaps it is more like a fairy tale.)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 04:49:37 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mark Jost
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« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2011, 10:24:34 AM »

Even if you could stand on the top of the tower you couldnt see past 5.5 Km's to the horizion. Ireland is over 500 miles away from the North coast of Spain?
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2011, 02:56:00 PM »

Even if you could stand on the top of the tower you couldnt see past 5.5 Km's to the horizion. Ireland is over 500 miles away from the North coast of Spain?

I checked.  The shortest distance between Ireland and the continent is SE point of Ireland to somewhere like Brest in Brittany.  Its around 270 miles.  The distance between Cork in SW Ireland and Galicia in NW Spain is around 600 miles.  To put it into perspective, NE Ireland is about 30 miles from SW Scotland.  The south end of the Mull of Kintrye in Scotland is very clear (even some buildings can vaguely be seen) from the coast of north-east Antrim.  You can see Arran in Scotland and sometimes Jura and other hebridean islands from north Antrim on cold clear days.  From south Antrim and country Down the view to the Scottish borders area (Galloway) and Cumbria and the Isle of Man is sometimes visible.  On occasion you can see Wales, all because they are fairly high.  I dont think England can be seen from Ireland except Cumbria and adjacent as it is too low. 
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 03:06:02 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Jdean
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« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2011, 03:05:58 PM »

Even if you could stand on the top of the tower you couldnt see past 5.5 Km's to the horizion. Ireland is over 500 miles away from the North coast of Spain?


Being a tad pedantic here but it's definitely possible to see things further than 5.5 km out to sea. You can see France from Dover and Wales from N. Devon for instance, without the aid of a tower :)
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Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

OConnor
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« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2011, 03:12:02 PM »

you may see high points of land..but not the beach.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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seferhabahir
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« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2011, 01:33:55 AM »

There is another new Z253+ that has shown up...

Kit #92957 - Thomas Johnson 1740-1790 Gainsboro England. Seems pretty far off from the L226 and L554 Z253+ positives, and even larger GD than me for some of them. Also has DYS439=12. Also not known whether L226+ or L554+ yet, and not in a known cluster.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

seferhabahir
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« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2011, 02:21:41 AM »

There is another new Z253+ that has shown up...

Kit #92957 - Thomas Johnson 1740-1790 Gainsboro England. Seems pretty far off from the L226 and L554 Z253+ positives, and even larger GD than me for some of them. Also has DYS439=12. Also not known whether L226+ or L554+ yet, and not in a known cluster.

Some other differences:

DYS385a,b =11,11 (all others so far have 11-14)
DYS19=15 (all others so far have 14)
DYS438=13 (all others so far have 12)
DYS570=18 (all others so far have 17)
DYS590=9 (all others so far have 8)
DYS425=null (all others so far have 12)
DYS487=12 (all others so far have 13 or 14)
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

rms2
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« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2011, 07:08:19 PM »

I have three of them (including Johnson) in the new R-Z253 category at the R-L21 Plus Project thus far. There may be others I have missed. I'll have to check.

Are we certain L226 is downstream of Z253?
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