For Maju

[Maliclavelli]

@ dok111

“On another note, I found one of my best mtDNA matches to date. One of the "Iraqi" samples appears to be HV4a2. He shares changes at loci 16287 and 16311 with myself, and the Jordanian HV4a2 listed at GenBank. These two differences are not shared by the other HV4a2 at GenBank, an Egyptian”.

I think having demonstrated to you many times that HV in Middle East is derived from Europe (mainly from Italy) like R0a2, like FTDNA says:

“Mitochondrial haplogroup R0a (formerly known as pre-HV1) is a primarily European haplogroup
that was present in Europe beginning approximately 20,000 years ago. It occurs in very low frequency throughout Europe, and some descendant lineages of the original haplogroup R0a appear in the Near East as a result of migration. It was probably one of the original mitochondrial
haplogroups in Europe, and likely pre-dates the occurrence of farming in Europe. Future work will better resolve the distribution and historical  characteristics of this haplogroup”.
 

@Maju

“What is intriguing about Italy in general is that it tends to accumulate high diversity and/or upstream branches of many lineages but always at very low frequencies. It may be because it has been destination of many different small waves since deep in Prehistory”.
 
Now that Chinese, extracting 367 mtDNA from the 1000 Genomes Project, have demonstrated that probably it isn’t true that Agriculture was the cause of the growing of population but the consequence, perhaps we should begin to think that it couldn’t be true that everything derives from East. It isn’t true for many haplogroups and I hope will be demonstrated also for R1b.

[Humanist]

@ dok111

“On another note, I found one of my best mtDNA matches to date. One of the "Iraqi" samples appears to be HV4a2. He shares changes at loci 16287 and 16311 with myself, and the Jordanian HV4a2 listed at GenBank. These two differences are not shared by the other HV4a2 at GenBank, an Egyptian”.

I think having demonstrated to you many times that HV in Middle East is derived from Europe (mainly from Italy) like R0a2, like FTDNA says

OK.  And, what precisely is the point of your post, sir?  I made a comment about finding a match with an Iraqi who appears to be, like me, and two other men at GenBank, HV4a2.  What does that have to do with the origin of a macro-haplogroup, or whatever it is you are going on about this time?

[Maliclavelli]

Dear Humanist/dok111, I posted this reply here because Maju evidently closed his forum to me. Of course he is free to manage his forum like he prefers, but he is very disgusting, after he deleted many posts of mine and of Alexandre Octavià, only because we were expressing opinions different from his (and in Linguistics he is an ass, with his communist/nationalist Basquism).
Of course I have always thought the contrary of you, extimating you a reasonable person and if you permit to me a friend.

I wanted to say what I have said: East (or Middle East) isn't a privileged place for the origin of DNA and of course I don't agree with Maju and others. You, when I knew you, probably thought that HV4 was of Middle Eastern origin, and I demonstrated that it isn't true, like for many other haplogroups. That Italy also for J1 etc. has very ancient haplotypes (like I have always said) does mean at least that they arrived here many thousands of years ago and not recently, and if you remember, also about your G1* we said that the closest haplotype to you was in Sicily. And it isn't said that G is from Caucasus, like also Dienekes is thinking and writing: it could be born also in Western Europe (and in Italy above all).

That's all. Your friend Gioiello Tognoni

[intrestedinhistory]

@ dok111

“On another note, I found one of my best mtDNA matches to date. One of the "Iraqi" samples appears to be HV4a2. He shares changes at loci 16287 and 16311 with myself, and the Jordanian HV4a2 listed at GenBank. These two differences are not shared by the other HV4a2 at GenBank, an Egyptian”.

I think having demonstrated to you many times that HV in Middle East is derived from Europe (mainly from Italy) like R0a2, like FTDNA says

OK.  And, what precisely is the point of your post, sir?  I made a comment about finding a match with an Iraqi who appears to be, like me, and two other men at GenBank, HV4a2.  What does that have to do with the origin of a macro-haplogroup, or whatever it is you are going on about this time?

Don't worry HV and R0a in the Middle East have nothing to do with Europe? The flow is the other way around. Like with most haplogroups.

[Maliclavelli]

Don't worry HV and R0a in the Middle East have nothing to do with Europe? The flow is the other way around. Like with most haplogroups.

We are studying haplogroups and their path. Of course we all (so far) are thinking that probably HV and R0a come from Middle East or India, like we all are thinking (so far) that Y P and Q and R were born in Central Asia, but this doesn’t mean that all their subclades come from there. We are trying to understand when and where. If Y R* was born in Central Asia, this doesn’t mean that R1a-M420 was born there. It may be born in Europe and after migrated to India like a subclade of R-M420 and so on. If R0a was born in Middle East or elsewhere, this doesn’t mean that R0ab and subclades was born there, because we have found it in Sicily (Italy) and not elsewhere and so on. Also HV may come from East, but HV1’a’b may be born in Europe and so on, and Y R1b1*, R-M269, R-L23, R-L51 and so on. We study all this by a scientific point of view, we have a name, a surname, an Y and a mitochondrion beyond an autosomal and so on. And if you are a man, you speak with me after having introduced you, as I have done with you. Otherwise I continue to think that you are a “quacquaracquà”.

[intrestedinhistory]

Blah blah italy is the world blah blah talk about more garbage blah blah can't speak english so need to insult people in other languages like a coward.

R0a is West Asian. Some subclades might be european.

Same with R1b. M269 is certainly west asian.

[intrestedinhistory]

Dear Humanist/dok111, I posted this reply here because Maju evidently closed his forum to me. Of course he is free to manage his forum like he prefers, but he is very disgusting, after he deleted many posts of mine and of Alexandre Octavià, only because we were expressing opinions different from his (and in Linguistics he is an ass, with his communist/nationalist Basquism).
Of course I have always thought the contrary of you, extimating you a reasonable person and if you permit to me a friend.

I wanted to say what I have said: East (or Middle East) isn't a privileged place for the origin of DNA and of course I don't agree with Maju and others. You, when I knew you, probably thought that HV4 was of Middle Eastern origin, and I demonstrated that it isn't true, like for many other haplogroups. That Italy also for J1 etc. has very ancient haplotypes (like I have always said) does mean at least that they arrived here many thousands of years ago and not recently, and if you remember, also about your G1* we said that the closest haplotype to you was in Sicily. And it isn't said that G is from Caucasus, like also Dienekes is thinking and writing: it could be born also in Western Europe (and in Italy above all).

That's all. Your friend Gioiello Tognoni

The Middle east is the source of most European haplogroups. get over it.

Europe isn't the privileged one. For a long time you have thought it was and genetics has proved you wrong.

G is not from Italy. If it is not from the Caucasus which I agree with it is from West Asia or West Central Asia.

I can't believe the garbage I am reading.

It is utterly disgusting how you want to rewrite history.

You are nobody's friend with the garbage you spread.

[Arch Y.]

Don't worry HV and R0a in the Middle East have nothing to do with Europe? The flow is the other way around. Like with most haplogroups.

We are studying haplogroups and their path. Of course we all (so far) are thinking that probably HV and R0a come from Middle East or India, like we all are thinking (so far) that Y P and Q and R were born in Central Asia, but this doesn’t mean that all their subclades come from there. We are trying to understand when and where. If Y R* was born in Central Asia, this doesn’t mean that R1a-M420 was born there. It may be born in Europe and after migrated to India like a subclade of R-M420 and so on. If R0a was born in Middle East or elsewhere, this doesn’t mean that R0ab and subclades was born there, because we have found it in Sicily (Italy) and not elsewhere and so on. Also HV may come from East, but HV1’a’b may be born in Europe and so on, and Y R1b1*, R-M269, R-L23, R-L51 and so on. We study all this by a scientific point of view, we have a name, a surname, an Y and a mitochondrion beyond an autosomal and so on. And if you are a man, you speak with me after having introduced you, as I have done with you. Otherwise I continue to think that you are a “quacquaracquà”.

Not until a great amount of ancient DNA is found, we really are merely guessing where any haplogroup and its subclades may have originated from. The best answers we have are the regional affinities where subclades today are found, but as we all know, humans pick up and relocate many times over; perhaps completely erasing the genetic signature of the first several generations of the original inhabitants over a given period of time. The best answers appear to lie elsewhere and certainly not in the genetics of today's populations. Spencer Wells was rushing to find genetic origins for "aboriginals" in various places before it's too late. For most of us of European descent, it is much too late. The technology of genetics arrived much too late. We must look to the remains of our past to find clues about the possible locations of our ancestral origins; no guarantees that we will find much evidence to support any theories of SNP geographic origins in the near future.

Arch