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Author Topic: R-M269xL23, L23xL11 and L11* / ht35 (R1b1a2 except R-P312 and R-U106)  (Read 10472 times)
rms2
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« Reply #75 on: October 29, 2011, 08:11:45 PM »

I didn't count, but it seems like a real preponderance of Armenians there. Puts me in mind of Gamkrelidze and Ivanov and their Armenian or Eastern Anatolian PIE homeland theory.
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« Reply #76 on: October 29, 2011, 09:06:39 PM »

I didn't count, but it seems like a real preponderance of Armenians there. Puts me in mind of Gamkrelidze and Ivanov and their Armenian or Eastern Anatolian PIE homeland theory.

Possibly or some later neolithic movement that became Indo-Europeanized after it had been in contact with early PIE speakers from the steppe.  I suspect R1b-L23* would have been present in Tripolye people at first, then become IE-ized and started moving west through the Baden, Globular Amphora, Usatavo,  Vucedol cultures, etc.  Vucedol (and then a move through North Italy/S. France) may be the early link to Bell Beaker before it shows up in Iberia. 

I dont' see any new or strong evidence to keep the steppe/north of the Black sea model supported at this time.  The Bashkir L23 is young and the Uralic L23 probably arrived from the south at some point, though not tied to the main European L23 movement.  Plus, what little Russian and Ukrainian L23 there is, could have come from the west at many times in history.  The European L23* distrubution looks very neolithic and southern, imo.
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« Reply #77 on: October 30, 2011, 08:55:36 AM »

I respectfully disagree. Thus far there is no evidence R1b of any kind could be found among the Tripolye people. R1b has been conspicuously absent in European Neolithic remains tested for y-dna thus far.

Why is it that a preponderance of Armenians in Mike's list of R-L23(xL51) makes you think Tripolye?

IMHO, the Tripolye folks were far more likely to have been a mix of G2a, I2 (of some kind), E1b1b, and perhaps J, and not R1b at all. Of course, they could have also belonged to some y haplogroups no longer common in Europe.

Tripolye people were a small, gracile, Mediterranean type of people. While I know it is futile to try to tie y haplogroups to skeletal structure, I can see no good reason to link R1b to the Mediterranean and to Mediterranean physical types.
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« Reply #78 on: October 30, 2011, 11:11:38 AM »

.. Tripolye people were a small, gracile, Mediterranean type of people. While I know it is futile to try to tie y haplogroups to skeletal structure, I can see no good reason to link R1b to the Mediterranean and to Mediterranean physical types.
MHammers,
I think you have studied the cranial types.  What correlations do you see?

RMS2,
Didn't David Anthony say there were violent clashes between the Tripolye culture and Steppe herder? If so, the later versions of these cultures may have been even more blended, but with a completely different type of people.

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2009/03/12/proto-indo-european-speakers-of-the-late-tripolye-culture-as-the-inventors-of-wheeled-vehicles/
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« Reply #79 on: October 30, 2011, 11:14:06 AM »

... Why is it that a preponderance of Armenians in Mike's list of R-L23(xL51) makes you think Tripolye? ...
What are the ancestral populations for the Armenians?  They are people of the eastern Anatolia and lower Caucasus regions, aren't they?
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« Reply #80 on: October 30, 2011, 12:17:29 PM »

@rms2
One of the reasons I speculate on this is Myres found 12 Romanian L23*'s with the highest L23 variance inside Europe.   The lack of R1b in neolithic remains is so far concentrated only in LBK with Otzi and the Treilles group as later neolithic.  All of these sites are farther west than R1b was at this time in my hypothesis.  Also, around 3500 BC there is a clear uptick in violence in France as evidenced by the increasing amount of arrowheads found lodged in skeletal remains.  This was among the Seine-Oise-Marne and Treilles cultures.  When Otzi is included and with the rarity of G2a today, it suggests there was some kind of population/conflict shift towards the west taking place.  In Anthony's book, the first steppe incursion happened in 4200 which, imo, set things in motion for R1b.  The Suvorovo steppe tribes by-passed Tripolye and targeted the tells on the lower Danube.  This was probably the beginning of when these farmer cultures starting picking up IE.

The steppe tribes were probably not as far west as France in 3500-3000 BC, if ever.  This is why I rule them out, but an IE-ized and eastern European R1b being pushed west by encroaching steppe tribes seems more reasonable.  This also gives more time for a early proto-Beaker group to get to Iberia by 2900.
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« Reply #81 on: October 30, 2011, 12:54:20 PM »

@Mikewww
As rms said, the Tripolye were mostly of the gracile type.  After looking over as much data as I could find on the net, there really isn't a connection between the steppe type and the types further west.  I have a alot of data in hardcopy on the Hungarian plain from the Koros (neolithic) through the Celts.  Some of these are from the Bodrogkeretszur and Okkersiros (pitgrave/Yamnaya).  The usual robust steppe type is only present as a minority.  The gracile and other blended types persist through all periods.  It is possible that the steppe people were absorbed and became reduced in type.  The only problem with that is the Baden people tended to avoid the Yamnaya herders and lived around the edges.  

As for the Bell beaker physical type, the Globular Amphora and Baden peoples are the ones who come closest in cranial and upper facial indices.  One Yamnaya sample I have does approach the Beaker type, but the steppe people generally had short faces as opposed to the Beakers.  They do share some robust features with the steppe people, but the same features could have also come from mixture with old mesolithic types.  The brachycephalic or round-headed element commonly associated with Beakers is found in the neolithic remains especially among females in Hungary.   Basically all of the elements for the Beaker type (short head, long face, brachycepahly, robust mesolithic remnants) were already present before steppe people arrived.
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« Reply #82 on: October 30, 2011, 03:37:52 PM »

.... In Anthony's book, the first steppe incursion happened in 4200 which, imo, set things in motion for R1b.  The Suvorovo steppe tribes by-passed Tripolye and targeted the tells on the lower Danube.  This was probably the beginning of when these farmer cultures starting picking up IE.

The steppe tribes were probably not as far west as France in 3500-3000 BC, if ever.  This is why I rule them out, but an IE-ized and eastern European R1b being pushed west by encroaching steppe tribes seems more reasonable.  This also gives more time for a early proto-Beaker group to get to Iberia by 2900.

I don't know much about the Suvorovo culture.  I found this blog interesting.
Quote
The most convincing explanation of this puzzle is the assumption of a two-phase migration movement, not away from Anatolia but directed toward it. The speakers of the ancestral language of Anatolian, the bearers of the Suvorovo culture (c. 4500–4100 BC) in Moldavia and Bulgaria, came to the region with the first migration wave of Indo-Europeans from the east, that is, from the northern Pontic zone.
The language of the Suvorovo people “would have been taken over and transmitted to Anatolia by the next wave of steppe immigrants (coming with wheeled vehicles), who formed the Ezero culture (c. 3300–2700 calBC) of Bulgaria” (Carpelan and Parpola2001.64).
http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/2009/02/05/indo-europeanization-the-seven-dimensions-in-the-study-of-a-never-ending-proces

What do we know about Suvorovo? I did find Anthony's book a bit frustrating where he describes the pre-Italo-Celtic dialect of PIE moving with Steppe herders through Moldavia and Bulgaria up the Danube to the Hungarian Plains. He said was this was significant movement of people but leaves open the question (which is never addressed) about what happened to the existing people along the west side of the Black Sea. He did not say there was "integration" with this group like he does with the pre-Germanic dialect of PIE Steppe herders moving into Cucuteni-Trypillian lands. It seems he is saying the people along the area where the Danube drains were by-passed, which seems a bit strange.
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« Reply #83 on: October 30, 2011, 04:33:12 PM »

Suvorovo were a Sredny Stog people from the Dnieper region.  Anthony believes they were a Sredny Stog elite who broke away.  Most went to the lower Danube, Bulgaria, Southern Romania, etc  where there are signs of violence and tell destruction.  They supposedly brought pre-proto-Anatolian which came into Turkey from the west.  One branch of them did go west into Hungary where later some of them may have been important to the formation of the Bodrogkeretszur culture and the Baalberge group in early Funnelbeaker.  However, that is less clear.  Interestingly enough, the Koros people of neolithic Hungary are close to the Funnelbeaker craniometrically as shown in a recent study.  It looks like they or their descendents may have found refuge in the northern Funnebeaker areas.

It appears the Suvorovo had quite an impact in displacing populations as the center of copper metallurgy moved north and west as well.  As mentioned above, this possibly caused a ripple effect among the farming peoples that pushed them west which likely caused the increase in conflict in late neolithic France starting in 3500.  The G2a's of the Treilles group were likely an earlier established neolithic people.The people who stayed in the new interaction sphere evidenced by the Baden and Cernavoda cultures of SE Europe would have picked up IE.  Most of the European L23* is concentrated in the right places for this model: Romania, Greece, Hungary, Poland, Albania, Croatia, Slovakia, etc.
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« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2011, 04:52:55 PM »

I did find Anthony's book a bit frustrating where he describes the pre-Italo-Celtic dialect of PIE moving with Steppe herders through Moldavia and Bulgaria up the Danube to the Hungarian Plains. He said was this was significant movement of people but leaves open the question (which is never addressed) about what happened to the existing people along the west side of the Black Sea. He did not say there was "integration" with this group like he does with the pre-Germanic dialect of PIE Steppe herders moving into Cucuteni-Trypillian lands. It seems he is saying the people along the area where the Danube drains were by-passed, which seems a bit strange.


This would have been the Yamnaya period (3500-2500?).  There is suggestion of integration with the Usatavo culture (Tripolye and steppe).  The Tripolye were concentrated more around the Dniester, Prut, and Bug rivers until about 3000 when they abandoned their towns and probably became part of the Yamnaya movements. This was caused by a colder, drier climate downturn in that region.  By the Yamnaya period, the people west of the Black sea had been living in a steppe interaction sphere since Suvorovo, almost a millenium.   Some kind of late PIE may have already been in use.  This is why there little or no evidence of conflict, unlike Suvorovo in 4200.
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« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2011, 04:59:14 PM »

Personally, I doubt that R-L23* learned IE from another source, as they already spoke it in Armenia, Anatolia, and the Balkans during that time.

I believe it is either Proto-Anatolian or Hittite that emerged during the 4th millennium BCE, and R1b could be the only candidate I can think of that spoke such a language. Moreover, I think the best scenario for R1b's entrance into Europe is during the Bronze Age. We can speculate all day as to what we would like to see from aDNA, or what could be unraveled, but the fact is that R1b is not found in Neolithic remains.

I suppose that one will find R1b in the Caucasus and Armenian Highlands during this time - as well as Anatolia - exporting its Bronze Age technologies and PIE to the Steppes. I don't see any reason why Steppe tribes must be speaking PIE at this time; we do not know what they spoke before cultures such as Maykop entered the area and brought both lactose tolerance and PIE to them.

The clear lack of Steppe archeological substrate in Europe is testament to an Indo-European expansion out of Anatolia during the Bronze Age. Hence, we have R-L23*.
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« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2011, 06:21:25 PM »

FYI.  If you know any wild and crazy researchers all of the data for all of the deep clade tested R-M269 in major FTDNA projects is at the following files.  There should be no redundancy between the files but if you add them up you have everything.  Everybody is as consistently classified geographically as I can get.

Haplotype_Data_R-M269a.zip  (R-M269xU106xP312)
Haplotype_Data_R-P312xL21.zip
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/files/

Haplotype_Data_R-L21All.zip
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/

Haplotype_Data_R-U106All.zip
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b1c_U106-S21/files/

The caveat on R-L21All is I have predicted people included so to be consistent you should click on the "L21" haplogroup selection macro button to filter down to just deep clade tested people.

As a side note: R-L21 practically (99+%) supplanted by R-L459 and R-U106 is over 90% supplanted by R-Z381.  I wonder if there are any nuggets of information in the U106+ Z381- people?  There should be in the L21+ L459- people but since there is only one we can find, not much to do about it.
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« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2011, 07:13:32 PM »

@rms2
One of the reasons I speculate on this is Myres found 12 Romanian L23*'s with the highest L23 variance inside Europe.   The lack of R1b in neolithic remains is so far concentrated only in LBK with Otzi and the Treilles group as later neolithic.  All of these sites are farther west than R1b was at this time in my hypothesis.  Also, around 3500 BC there is a clear uptick in violence in France as evidenced by the increasing amount of arrowheads found lodged in skeletal remains.  This was among the Seine-Oise-Marne and Treilles cultures.  When Otzi is included and with the rarity of G2a today, it suggests there was some kind of population/conflict shift towards the west taking place.  In Anthony's book, the first steppe incursion happened in 4200 which, imo, set things in motion for R1b.  The Suvorovo steppe tribes by-passed Tripolye and targeted the tells on the lower Danube.  This was probably the beginning of when these farmer cultures starting picking up IE.

The steppe tribes were probably not as far west as France in 3500-3000 BC, if ever.  This is why I rule them out, but an IE-ized and eastern European R1b being pushed west by encroaching steppe tribes seems more reasonable.  This also gives more time for a early proto-Beaker group to get to Iberia by 2900.

Honestly, I don't see it. The Tripolye people were distinctly unwarlike and appear to have worshiped a bevy of goddesses. Why would they fold before the steppe tribes and then show up wiping people out in France? How could they get "Indo-Europeanized" while at the same time being driven west?

I think they were more likely to belong to Mediterranean y haplogroups like G2, E1b1b, and J2 on a base of I2a than to R1b.

Finding 12 R-L23* haplotypes in modern Romania is not evidence of a link between R1b and Tripolye. There is a lot more I2a and E1b1b in the Balkans than R1b, it seems to me.

I think the path for R1b was east or southeast to west and northwest, but not via Tripolye.
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« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2011, 07:29:56 PM »

I think it is possible that G2a was at one time the default y haplogroup in southern Europe, along with I2a.

It would be interesting to get some y-dna test results from Tripolye remains.
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« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2011, 08:19:35 PM »

The Trypole people had settlements of 10s of thousands of people.  I think it is possible to interpret the contraction (not conquest) of the Cucuteni people into certain area as being due to a huge climatic downturn.  They possibly simply contracted into certain areas and downsized while the marginal areas they left behind were taken over by nomadic pastoralists.  They kind of lived side by side for a very long time in the same areas but different land niches.  As far as I can see the steppes peoples nibbled into the eastern edges of the 'Old European' lands and that was about it.

I still think both M269 and the possible evolution from Euphratic to Anatolian to proto-IE to Centum in the SE of Europe ties together far too nearly for there to be no link.  If M269 is linked then it seems from Mikes recent calculations that there may have been a long period of between L23 and L51/L11.  So perhaps the sequence is an intrusion from Asia Minor with L23 maybe 5000BC or so followed by a long hiatus when proto-IE formed among the L23 in SE Europe before there was a secondary take of point.  I still see the steppes as a saetem side show more likely to be the recipient than the doner of IE.  I do think the old Gimbutas ideas of mother earth figurines meaning a matriarchical society etc is wrong.  Many paternalistic and war like peoples have Virgin Mary statues and pictures. I think this is very much still an open question.  

It appears to me that the various stages of proto-IE and pre-PI (Hittite) and pre-pre-PIE (Euphratic) seems to fit the phylogeny of M269 pretty.  The idea of proto-IE forming as a Hittite split off c. 5000BC in the Balkans fits pretty well the movement of dairy pastoralism from Anatolia to Bulgaria etc around that time.  So, that would place a possibly PIE homeland in Bulgaria and the area of 'old Europe' around to the west of the Black Sea.  Then we can see in L23 a period of development of PIE in south-east Europe and a long delay before it has a secondary expansion from there into the west as L11 and clades.  
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« Reply #90 on: October 30, 2011, 08:47:21 PM »

It appears to me that the various stages of proto-IE and pre-PI (Hittite) and pre-pre-PIE (Euphratic) seems to fit the phylogeny of M269 pretty.  
Exactly. R1b (either L23* or something downstream) is the only contender I see with direct associations with both Anatolian and the movement into the Balkans with IE (pre-Italo-Celto-Germanic). I see the Steppe tribes as recipients of this culture.

We know about R1b-V88 in Africa and the Levant . The former took the European lactose tolerance gene with it to Chadic Africa. Moreover, Steppe peoples must have mixed with LT R1b tribes at some point to pick it up, since many R1a1a populations are LT. It looks like they picked up more than the advantageous LT gene.
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« Reply #91 on: October 30, 2011, 09:55:55 PM »

Honestly, I don't see it. The Tripolye people were distinctly unwarlike and appear to have worshiped a bevy of goddesses. Why would they fold before the steppe tribes and then show up wiping people out in France? How could they get "Indo-Europeanized" while at the same time being driven west?

I think they were more likely to belong to Mediterranean y haplogroups like G2, E1b1b, and J2 on a base of I2a than to R1b.

Finding 12 R-L23* haplotypes in modern Romania is not evidence of a link between R1b and Tripolye. There is a lot more I2a and E1b1b in the Balkans than R1b, it seems to me.

I think the path for R1b was east or southeast to west and northwest, but not via Tripolye.

No, the Tripolye people were bypassed by the Suvorovo incursion.  So, of course they wouldn't show up in France in 3500.  They hung on until about 2800 in Ukraine.  I'm not saying Tripolye=R1b L23 exclusively, though it was probably present.  What I think is R1b, possibly L23, arrives with a secondary neolithic movement from Anatolia and was present in a number of cultures around the western Black sea.  The reason I suspect Tripolye is important for R1b and PIE is that they brought some kind of proto-language (Euphratic? or an early Caucasian type) to the steppe that would become IE.  If they arrived in 5000 with lactose persistence, it is not long before it could be developed as a common language and end up being carried by mobile steppe people.  

The steppe people were like other foragers before neolithic influences from the south arrived.  They would not have developed IE without outside impulses, imo.  The fusion may have occurred in the Dnieper region, which was the eastern limit of Tripolye.  This differs from Renfrew's Anatolian theory in that it puts PIE into a shorter time span and it arrived as some unknown pre-proto language before it became PIE.
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« Reply #92 on: October 30, 2011, 10:10:04 PM »

It appears to me that the various stages of proto-IE and pre-PI (Hittite) and pre-pre-PIE (Euphratic) seems to fit the phylogeny of M269 pretty.  
Exactly. R1b (either L23* or something downstream) is the only contender I see with direct associations with both Anatolian and the movement into the Balkans with IE (pre-Italo-Celto-Germanic). I see the Steppe tribes as recipients of this culture.

We know about R1b-V88 in Africa and the Levant . The former took the European lactose tolerance gene with it to Chadic Africa. Moreover, Steppe peoples must have mixed with LT R1b tribes at some point to pick it up, since many R1a1a populations are LT. It looks like they picked up more than the advantageous LT gene.

And R1a-dominant eastern Europe has a lower rate of lactase persistence than R1b-dominant western Europe.

Yet lactase persistence is thought to have originated in the steppe.
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« Reply #93 on: October 30, 2011, 10:14:01 PM »

Honestly, I don't see it. The Tripolye people were distinctly unwarlike and appear to have worshiped a bevy of goddesses. Why would they fold before the steppe tribes and then show up wiping people out in France? How could they get "Indo-Europeanized" while at the same time being driven west?

I think they were more likely to belong to Mediterranean y haplogroups like G2, E1b1b, and J2 on a base of I2a than to R1b.

Finding 12 R-L23* haplotypes in modern Romania is not evidence of a link between R1b and Tripolye. There is a lot more I2a and E1b1b in the Balkans than R1b, it seems to me.

I think the path for R1b was east or southeast to west and northwest, but not via Tripolye.

No, the Tripolye people were bypassed by the Suvorovo incursion.  So, of course they wouldn't show up in France in 3500.  They hung on until about 2800 in Ukraine.  I'm not saying Tripolye=R1b L23 exclusively, though it was probably present.  What I think is R1b, possibly L23, arrives with a secondary neolithic movement from Anatolia and was present in a number of cultures around the western Black sea.  The reason I suspect Tripolye is important for R1b and PIE is that they brought some kind of proto-language (Euphratic? or an early Caucasian type) to the steppe that would become IE.  If they arrived in 5000 with lactose persistence, it is not long before it could be developed as a common language and end up being carried by mobile steppe people.  

The steppe people were like other foragers before neolithic influences from the south arrived.  They would not have developed IE without outside impulses, imo.  The fusion may have occurred in the Dnieper region, which was the eastern limit of Tripolye.  This differs from Renfrew's Anatolian theory in that it puts PIE into a shorter time span and it arrived as some unknown pre-proto language before it became PIE.

That sounds like a variation of what Alan said earlier about R1b being the primary carrier of PIE, with R1a receiving it from them.

I still don't think there was much, if any, R1b in Tripolye. G2, I2a, J2, maybe E1b1b, that's what I think.

Time will tell . . . maybe.
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« Reply #94 on: October 30, 2011, 10:22:34 PM »

Here is one additional piece of information that Handschar (Givargis) brought up.  This is part of the reason I went through all the DYS393/DYS426 changes in the different steps of the R-M269 ladder.

I recognize that basing a complete theory on one marker is not a great idea, but perhaps this is a clue.  We all know that 393=13 is the value for WAMH, including P312, U106 and L11*. 393=12 is of low frequency in the L11 family.

L11* is only 4% 393<=12, the rest is almost all =13.

Move back up the phylogenetic ladder one step and the 393=13 modal holds.
L51xL11 is 0% 393<=12, 100% 393=13

Move up the ladder another step and we see the transition from 393=12 has occurred. This also holds for M269xL23 so it appears 393=12 is modal at these levels of the tree.
L23xL51 is 89% 393<=12

So L23xL51 is where the main transition occurred to 393=13. L51+ clearly seems to have had its start.  Where in L23xL51 did this happen?

The minority of L23xL51 is the 393=13 and that minority is primarily found in Assyrians, Armenians and Switzerland.  Handschar's point is that as a frequency level, 393=13 is highest in the L23xL51 Assyrians rather than in the other groups so the hypothesis would be the ancestral populations of the Assyrians would be where we should look for L51*'s pre-L11 lineage to have branched from.

Here is something else that is interesting. Not sure if it is meaningful, but noticing the Swiss L23xL51 393=13 contingent I looked through the rest of Central and Western Europe.  Turns out there is a very clear cut pattern. 393=13 occurs only in non-Northern European L23XL51, Switzerland, Greece, Albania and Italy. The furthest north I can find it is one in Baden-Wurtemburg and one in Eastern Hungary.

L23xL51 393<=12 folks in Europe do occur in good numbers in Italy, Greeces, etc. and all the way up to Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, etc.  and of course England where testing rates are high.  It's just that L23xL51 393=13 is absent in the Isles, Poland, Hungary, most of Germany, etc.   It's absent in France and Spain too.  There is a near unanimity of 393=12 among L23xL51 across Northern Europe and then down the Atlantic.


« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 10:24:04 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #95 on: October 30, 2011, 10:39:20 PM »

Very interesting, Mike!

So, could this Assyrian L23xL51, 393=13 minority be descended from IE Euphratic speakers?

What is the predominant y-haplogroup among the Assyrians?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 10:41:08 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #96 on: October 30, 2011, 10:49:58 PM »

Very interesting, Mike!

So, could this Assyrian L23xL51, 393=13 minority be descended from IE Euphratic speakers?

What is the predominant y-haplogroup among the Assyrians?
I could hardly speak about Euphratic speakers and I don't what studies have been done of Assyrians.

Here is their FTDNA project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

Looks very mixed with R1b as #1 and T (yes T) as #2.

I don't think I can hang out with the linguists and understand what they are talking about, but this looks like a group for someone who wanted to get some additional viewpoints.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Indo-Eurasian_research/
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 10:54:25 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #97 on: October 30, 2011, 10:50:50 PM »

... Why is it that a preponderance of Armenians in Mike's list of R-L23(xL51) makes you think Tripolye? ...
What are the ancestral populations for the Armenians?  They are people of the eastern Anatolia and lower Caucasus regions, aren't they?

Armenian is a satem IE language, but, as I recall, the Armenians have a fairly high frequency of R1b.

There were a number of groups that went into the making of the Armenian people, including but not limited to the Hittites and the Mitanni.

On a side note, I have an Armenian brother-in-law. He looks a lot like Joe Stalin! :-)

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« Reply #98 on: October 30, 2011, 10:53:39 PM »

Very interesting, Mike!

So, could this Assyrian L23xL51, 393=13 minority be descended from IE Euphratic speakers?

What is the predominant y-haplogroup among the Assyrians?
I could hardly speak about Euphratic speakers and I don't what studies have been done of Assyrians.

Here is their FTDNA project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

Looks very mixed with R1b as #1 and T (yes T) as #2.

That is interesting!

As I understand it, the Assyrians are mostly Christian and speak Aramaic, which is a Semitic language.
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« Reply #99 on: October 30, 2011, 10:57:53 PM »

Very interesting, Mike!

So, could this Assyrian L23xL51, 393=13 minority be descended from IE Euphratic speakers?

What is the predominant y-haplogroup among the Assyrians?
I could hardly speak about Euphratic speakers and I don't what studies have been done of Assyrians.

Here is their FTDNA project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

Looks very mixed with R1b as #1 and T (yes T) as #2.

That is interesting!

As I understand it, the Assyrians are mostly Christian and speak Aramaic, which is a Semitic language.

I don't know if he's on this forum but he is on dna-forums. I recommend that you ask Handschar (Peter G) to join us.  You'll see his email on the background screen of the Assyrian project. He could probably tell you a lot about Assyrians.
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