World Families Forums - R-M269xL23, L23xL11 and L11* / ht35 (R1b1a2 except R-P312 and R-U106)

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Author Topic: R-M269xL23, L23xL11 and L11* / ht35 (R1b1a2 except R-P312 and R-U106)  (Read 11330 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2011, 10:35:48 AM »

.... The fixation of DYS426=13 in R-L51+ may be due to saturation, and this is in favour of what I have said above.
For what I have said, I think that to understand the origin of an haplogroup by examining its variance is useless, like also the last paper of Busby et al. has said.
I don't really care about 426=13, I was just showing the general mapping of 393/426 so people can see what that is about. I think it is useful in assigning STR based varieties within haplogroups and deciding what SNP tests to order.

As far variance goes, Busby does NOT say it is useless.  In fact, he used STR diversity as the primary tool to show that he thinks L11(S127) is about the same age all over Europe.  He is just saying STR diversity is not useful for discerning L11 geographic distribution so we end up with what I call the Busby "blob" of indiscernible STR diversity... but this is for L11 only.
Quote from: Busby et al
.... in which case we would expect higher diversity in the east closer to the origins of agriculture, which is not what we observe.
They use diversity to prove their point, they just calculate it differently and with different data sets.

As far as STR saturation goes, this is what I tried to address in some of the other threads/forums about STR variance and "STR Wars." The "linear" form of variance is calculated using only STRs that Marko Heinila has analyzed (like Busby did, but I think Marko was much more thorough) as being linearly related to age for at least 7000-8000 years.  {Marko's results are at  http://beforepresent.dyndns.info/misc/loci.xls }
So these are STRs that should not be saturated for the timeframe.

I also showed variance for all the STRs (of the first 67) regardless of mutation rate as long as they weren't multi-copy or potential null values. This is for comparison so you can decide for yourself. Ken Nordtvedt would say more STRs are better, but you choose what you like. I don't think STR variance based calculations are precise by any means, just more important that frequency.

One STR, i.e. 426, makes little difference when using long haplotypes and numbers like 36 and 49 STRs.

Quote from: Maliclavelli
Argiedude demonstrated in a map of his you can find on this site, starting from my analyses, that R-L51+ has the highest frequency in Italy and it drops out of North Italy. By your data it wouldn’t seem true, but now I think having carried other proofs in favour of my theory. And the highest frequency were just where Ötzi lived. What a pity that he hasn’t come out R-L51+, but for me it is very good also this G2a4.
My understanding of some of those maps Argiedude used were based on predicting haplogroups based on haplotype STRs. This is precarious.  I'm trying to eliminate that source of error by using the SNP results. Unfortunately, sometimes it is not easy to find the total SNP results when testing is done, like it has been extensively for R-M269xU106xP312 people, at multiple testing companies.

I also caution you on using the data I'm show for frequency calculations. Tests available in public FTDNA projects are not necessarily representative and there is clearly testing biases by country, with some countries having much higher testing rates. I think in those cases the best one could do (without academic studies) is to look at the country projects and calculate the frequency by country rather than looking at absolute counts of a single haplogroup across countries.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 10:46:41 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2011, 10:53:03 AM »

...  More reliable is the aDNA: Ötzi is demonstrating that he was an ancient “Italian”, linked to the people that in his time peopled Italy, Sardinia, Sicily, Spain (who were probably the same “Italians” arrived like agriculturalists by sea 7500YBP)...
I do not think ancient DNA is the holy grail by any means. For all we know Otzi's brother-in-law was R1b of some sort and he was a minority Y haplogroup in his tribe.  This will be the problem for a long time to come with ancient DNA. The survey will not be anything close to being representative of the population of the time.

Otzi's DNA clearly does NOT link him to Italic speaking peoples. We don't know what he spoke. Unfortunately he didn't write a diary.

Ancient DNA is useful, but it is just another data point.

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2011, 11:40:08 AM »

Anyway R-L51+ is less monolithic than it seems. If we search for it on SMGF, taking the markers
DYS426, DYS388, DYS455, DYS454, DYS438, DYS452, DYS463
we have:
haplotype: 13,12,11,11,12,30,24     94
haplotype: 13,12,11,11,12,30,25       8
haplotype: 13,12,11,11,12,31,24     10
haplotype: 13,12,11,11,13,30,24       5
haplotype: 13,12,11,11,11,30,24      45
haplotype: 13,12,10,11,12,30,24      14
haplotype: 13,12,12,11,12,30,24        0
haplotype: 13,12,11,10,12,30,24         2
haplotype: 13,12,11,12,12,30,24         1
haplotype: 13,11,12,11,12,30,24         0
haplotype: 13,13,11,11,12,30,24         1
but the most interesting is
haplotype: 14,12,11,11,12,30,24        10.
I have extracted two of them and put them on ySearch:
Megerle (Germany): VD8QU
Leija (Mexico): 269QG.

Who is the closest to Leija?
Bez Batti (ySearch 65X69), Urussaga , Santa Catarina, Brasil, but clearly from the fatherland of Ötzi.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2011, 11:53:09 AM »

Anyway R-L51+ is less monolithic than it seems. If we search for it on SMGF, taking the markers
DYS426, DYS388, DYS455, DYS454, DYS438, DYS452, DYS463
we have:
haplotype: 13,12,11,11,12,30,24     94
haplotype: 13,12,11,11,12,30,25       8
haplotype: 13,12,11,11,12,31,24     10
haplotype: 13,12,11,11,13,30,24       5
haplotype: 13,12,11,11,11,30,24      45
haplotype: 13,12,10,11,12,30,24      14
haplotype: 13,12,12,11,12,30,24        0
haplotype: 13,12,11,10,12,30,24         2
haplotype: 13,12,11,12,12,30,24         1
haplotype: 13,11,12,11,12,30,24         0
haplotype: 13,13,11,11,12,30,24         1
but the most interesting is
haplotype: 14,12,11,11,12,30,24        10.
I have extracted two of them and put them on ySearch:
Megerle (Germany): VD8QU
Leija (Mexico): 269QG.

Who is the closest to Leija?
Bez Batti (ySearch 65X69), Urussaga , Santa Catarina, Brasil, but clearly from the fatherland of Ötzi.
Do you have SNP results for these guys?

P.S. I just uploaded the spreadsheet to the P312 Yahoo group again. I am not including the guys from the R1b project with L21 ? until Tibur F. responds. He said he'd look at it this weekend.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 12:36:05 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2011, 12:20:02 PM »

Of course not, but I "Bez (Batti)" that they are R-L51+. On SMGF there are only 15 individuals with DYS426=14, and 10 are these.

Surnames are: Wells, Marshall, Acosta Del Valle, Price (3), Williams, an Anonymous from Iraq, besides these two I put on ySearch. You can see that they are from the periphery of Italy where I have always said was the expansion: Germany, Wales, Scotland, Spain.
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« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2011, 03:13:21 PM »

2 other haplotypes of the 10 above with DYS426=14:
MWGPP (Acosta Del Valle) and EV586 with DYS426=13
YTJ7N (Marshall) and see RTR72 (McNulty), 9F95M (Gunter), XB3JM (Morgan).
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« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2011, 03:48:30 PM »

2 other haplotypes of the 10 above with DYS426=14:
MWGPP (Acosta Del Valle) and EV586 with DYS426=13
YTJ7N (Marshall) and see RTR72 (McNulty), 9F95M (Gunter), XB3JM (Morgan).
Do you have the SNP results for these?  Would you be interested in recruiting these guys to join the FTDNA ht35 project?

I tried to find SNP results but y9F95M Gunter is a good example. I went to the Gunter surname project and found
91712  William King Gunter son of Franklin Gunter  Unknown Origin  R1b1a2(green) 13 24    15 11 11-14 14 12 12 13 13 29

Sure enough, working backwards kit 91712 is Ysearch 9F95M.

All is well, but the Gunter project admin doesn't have the Y SNP report turned on so we don't know if he ever tested for L23 or L51.

I would include Gunter in the file if we can figure out his L23, L51 status.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2011, 04:58:54 PM »

Mike, the others of the ten are:
Williams: VMHF3
Price (3): 4APWB (one has a mutation in DYS464)
Wells: VBEWP (but there are other Wells very close to him with DYS426=12!)
Anonymous from Iraq (A6K44) isn't certainly an R-L51 but R-L23, even though very interesting for his variance, but who is the closest to him? Martignago (TDM4D), and I don't say where he is from.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 12:10:18 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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seferhabahir
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« Reply #58 on: October 19, 2011, 06:21:21 PM »

Do you have these L584 results? Note third one is now a second Ashkenazi L584+

126775    Bardiga  R-M269    
L11-, L23-, L49-, L50-, L51-, L52-, L584-

2146    Volovansky R-M269    
L23-, L49-, L50-, L51-, L52-, L584-

151766    Makler R-L23    
L2-, L21-, L23+, L48-, L49+, L584+
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« Reply #59 on: October 19, 2011, 06:31:14 PM »

Do you have these L584 results? Note third one is now a second Ashkenazi L584+

126775    Bardiga  R-M269    
L11-, L23-, L49-, L50-, L51-, L52-, L584-

2146    Volovansky R-M269    
L23-, L49-, L50-, L51-, L52-, L584-

151766    Makler R-L23    
L2-, L21-, L23+, L48-, L49+, L584+
What project(s) can I copy these guys from? The current file I have is at
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/files/

I've collected from the R1b M269+ U106- P312- (Ht35), R1b and Subclades, Assyrian, Jewish R1b, R Arabian, Armenian projects and a few others.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2011, 06:40:16 PM »

Sorry,

Jewish R1b

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR1b/default.aspx?section=ycolorized
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« Reply #61 on: October 19, 2011, 06:40:56 PM »


So they are probably already in the spreadsheet...
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2011, 11:48:04 AM »

Anyway R-L51+ is less monolithic than it seems. If we search for it on SMGF, taking the markers
DYS426, DYS388, DYS455, DYS454, DYS438, DYS452, DYS463
we have:
haplotype: 13,12,11,11,12,30,24     94
haplotype: 13,12,11,11,12,30,25       8
haplotype: 13,12,11,11,12,31,24     10
haplotype: 13,12,11,11,13,30,24       5
haplotype: 13,12,11,11,11,30,24      45
haplotype: 13,12,10,11,12,30,24      14
haplotype: 13,12,12,11,12,30,24        0
haplotype: 13,12,11,10,12,30,24         2
haplotype: 13,12,11,12,12,30,24         1
haplotype: 13,11,12,11,12,30,24         0
haplotype: 13,13,11,11,12,30,24         1
but the most interesting is
haplotype: 14,12,11,11,12,30,24        10.
I have extracted two of them and put them on ySearch:
Megerle (Germany): VD8QU
Leija (Mexico): 269QG.

Who is the closest to Leija?
Bez Batti (ySearch 65X69), Urussaga , Santa Catarina, Brasil, but clearly from the fatherland of Ötzi.


If these data are reliable, we should have at least about 5% of R-L51+ with DYS426=14 and probably much more with DYS426=12. So far we have only SNP tested with DYS426=13.
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« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2011, 02:45:55 AM »


L23xL11  (N=172)
Rel Var=1.55 [Mixed 49 STRs]
Rel Var=1.52 [Linear 36 STRs]
AvgGD to R-L23xL11 Modal=19 @67, MaxGD=32

M269xL23  (N=22)
Rel Var=1.05 [Mixed 49 STRs]
Rel Var=0.74 [Linear 36 STRs]
AvgGD to M269xL23=17 @67, MaxGD=32   

L11*  (N=33)
Rel Var=1.06 [Mixed 49 STRs]
Rel Var=0.93 [Linear 36 STRs]
AvgGD to L11* Modal=16 @67, MaxGD=24

.....

L51*  (N=17)
Rel Var=1.16 [Mixed 49 STRs]
Rel Var=1.09 [Linear 36 STRs]
AvgGD to L51*Modal=17 @67, MaxGD=21


I've looked at the variance between R-L11 subclades. I decided to check the maximum GD at 67 as kind of a cross-check.  The modal for all of R-M269 pretty much comes out to R-P312 which is WAMH.  The reason is just the high number of R-P312 and subclades people in the public DNA projects.

The highest GD to the WAMH over 67 marker for each of the following is:

U152  28
L21   26
P312* 26
U106  26

L23*  38

Their maximums are pretty much lumped together except L23*. I think there really was a good distance of age between L23 and L11.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 03:02:41 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2011, 04:32:09 AM »

I've looked at the variance between R-L11 subclades. I decided to check the maximum GD at 67 as kind of a cross-check.  The modal for all of R-M269 pretty much comes out to R-P312 which is WAMH.  The reason is just the high number of R-P312 and subclades people in the public DNA projects.
The highest GD to the WAMH over 67 marker for each of the following is:
U152  28
L21   26
P312* 26
U106  26
L23*  38
Their maximums are pretty much lumped together except L23*. I think there really was a good distance of age between L23 and L11.


Clearly something doesn't fit: U152 cannot get more GD than R-P312 or R-U106. If we don't take in consideration the "mutations around the modal" all the calculation isn't worth.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2011, 03:11:05 PM »

I've looked at the variance between R-L11 subclades. I decided to check the maximum GD at 67 as kind of a cross-check.  The modal for all of R-M269 pretty much comes out to R-P312 which is WAMH.  The reason is just the high number of R-P312 and subclades people in the public DNA projects.
The highest GD to the WAMH over 67 marker for each of the following is:
U152  28
L21   26
P312* 26
U106  26
L23*  38
Their maximums are pretty much lumped together except L23*. I think there really was a good distance of age between L23 and L11.


Clearly something doesn't fit: U152 cannot get more GD than R-P312 or R-U106. If we don't take in consideration the "mutations around the modal" all the calculation isn't worth.
Notice I said P312* (P312+ U152- L21- SRY2627- etc.)
P312* is just another set of lineages rather than a subclade. I don't see any reason why a U152 person couldn't have a greater GD from the modal for all of P312 than P312* people.  Perhaps that isn't your point. ???

The modal is not the ancestral value anyway.  We don't know that, the modal is just an estimate of the ancestral haplotype.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 07:58:06 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2011, 03:31:49 AM »

Notice I said P312* (P312+ U152- L21- SRY2627- etc.)
P312* is just another set of lineages rather than a subclade. I don't see any reason why a U152 person couldn't have a greater GD from the modal for all of P312 than P312* people.  Perhaps that isn't your point. ???
The modal is not the ancestral value anyway.  We don't know that, the modal just an estimate of the ancestral haplotype.
This could be true because we can presuppose that the survived haplotypes aren't the descendants of the most ancient ones, but that the most part of them became extinct...then for this reason falls the same principle to calculate the ancientness of a haplogroup by its variance.
But I'd add that also the mutations around the modal play a role in this.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2011, 02:57:17 PM »


Mike, have you noticed the huge amount of M269 (presumably xL11) found only in the area east of Lake Vättern in the Old Norway data? Unless there is an error somewhere or I am reading the pie charts incorrectly, this has to be of major importance, yet no one besides myself has commented on it at all.
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« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2011, 05:38:40 PM »


Mike, have you noticed the huge amount of M269 (presumably xL11) found only in the area east of Lake Vättern in the Old Norway data? Unless there is an error somewhere or I am reading the pie charts incorrectly, this has to be of major importance, yet no one besides myself has commented on it at all.
I did notice it, but was primarily interested in the mix of the primary subclades. I do need to pay more attention to Lake Vättern, especially since I have match from there.

Lake Vättern is in south central Sweden in Götaland, which is supposed to be the origin site of the Goths. On another thread the commentary centered on the difference between U152 on the west versus the east side of the lake.

These are all approximations, but it looks like the mix of R1b on both sides of the lake are:

WEST
40% U106x198
24% L21
18% U152
14% P312xL21xU152xSRY2627
5% SRY2627
0% U198

EAST
52% U106x198
19% M269xL11
19% P312xL21xU152xSRY2627
6% U198
6% L21
0% U152
0% SRY2627

The obvious thing has been brought up. U152 didn't make it around or across the lake so this might have been the boundary it hit.

At the same time, L21 is more frequent on the west than east but made it to the east. Perhaps it got there before U152 showed up???  However, L21 didn't make much of a dent on Denmark.

U106xU198 and U198 are both stronger on the east side of the lake, with U198 not making it west. My guess is that U106 came from across the Baltic on east side and edge of the Jutland Peninsula. Perhaps even from the Polish and German coasts via the Island of Gotland. This might have been very early, if the presence of R-M269xL11 east of the lake but not west of it means anything.

Anyway there might have been three main routes of R1b settlement in the Scandinavian Peninsula.

#1: From the east across the Baltic from the German and Polish coasts possibly up the Jutland too, although this R1b group may have come into Jutland from Scandinavia, possibly.... again all early on.  U106, U198, M269xL11, but probably with some probably some P312*/Z196* folks. I would think SRY2627 would with these guys to some degree but maybe they were later.

#2: Slightly behind behind group 1, group 2 was sweeping from the English Channel/Atlantic through the North Sea entering from the west.  Apparently Denmark was already occupied. Group 2 would have been laden with L21, but also some P312* people.

#3: After groups 1 and 2, group 3 comes directly from the Rhine to the Jutland and then across the straights into the Scandinavian Peninsula where they stop because of the prior occupants.  Group 3 is primarily U152, but may have a few drag-alongs.

Just speculating...







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« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2011, 08:55:57 PM »


Mike, have you noticed the huge amount of M269 (presumably xL11) found only in the area east of Lake Vättern in the Old Norway data? Unless there is an error somewhere or I am reading the pie charts incorrectly, this has to be of major importance, yet no one besides myself has commented on it at all.
I did notice it, but was primarily interested in the mix of the primary subclades. I do need to pay more attention to Lake Vättern, especially since I have match from there.

Lake Vättern is in south central Sweden in Götaland, which is supposed to be the origin site of the Goths. On another thread the commentary centered on the difference between U152 on the west versus the east side of the lake.

These are all approximations, but it looks like the mix of R1b on both sides of the lake are:

WEST
40% U106x198
24% L21
18% U152
14% P312xL21xU152xSRY2627
5% SRY2627
0% U198

EAST
52% U106x198
19% M269xL11
19% P312xL21xU152xSRY2627
6% U198
6% L21
0% U152
0% SRY2627

The obvious thing has been brought up. U152 didn't make it around or across the lake so this might have been the boundary it hit.

At the same time, L21 is more frequent on the west than east but made it to the east. Perhaps it got there before U152 showed up???  However, L21 didn't make much of a dent on Denmark.

U106xU198 and U198 are both stronger on the east side of the lake, with U198 not making it west. My guess is that U106 came from across the Baltic on east side and edge of the Jutland Peninsula. Perhaps even from the Polish and German coasts via the Island of Gotland. This might have been very early, if the presence of R-M269xL11 east of the lake but not west of it means anything.

Anyway there might have been three main routes of R1b settlement in the Scandinavian Peninsula.

#1: From the east across the Baltic from the German and Polish coasts possibly up the Jutland too, although this R1b group may have come into Jutland from Scandinavia, possibly.... again all early on.  U106, U198, M269xL11, but probably with some probably some P312*/Z196* folks. I would think SRY2627 would with these guys to some degree but maybe they were later.

#2: Slightly behind behind group 1, group 2 was sweeping from the English Channel/Atlantic through the North Sea entering from the west.  Apparently Denmark was already occupied. Group 2 would have been laden with L21, but also some P312* people.

#3: After groups 1 and 2, group 3 comes directly from the Rhine to the Jutland and then across the straights into the Scandinavian Peninsula where they stop because of the prior occupants.  Group 3 is primarily U152, but may have a few drag-alongs.

Just speculating...









Does anyone know anywhere else in Europe with such an enormous amount of M269(xL11)? 19% seems huge to me, especially as L11* seems to be fairly rare everywhere in Europe. I am also astounded that there is no M269(xL11) on the west side of the lake. Is there any explanation for this other than a very early arrival of R1b in the area, which for some reason didn't spread to the other side?
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« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2011, 10:53:24 PM »

There are some L21, R-P312, R-L1, R-L2, L48, U152, U106, M269 in Finland too.
Though not in great numbers.... Most M269 are in red, not snp tested.
Could there be some L11 here?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Finland/default.aspx?section=ysnp
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 11:05:25 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Mike Walsh
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« Reply #71 on: October 27, 2011, 01:06:18 PM »


Mike, have you noticed the huge amount of M269 (presumably xL11) found only in the area east of Lake Vättern in the Old Norway data? Unless there is an error somewhere or I am reading the pie charts incorrectly, this has to be of major importance, yet no one besides myself has commented on it at all.
I did notice it, but was primarily interested in the mix of the primary subclades. I do need to pay more attention to Lake Vättern, especially since I have match from there.

Lake Vättern is in south central Sweden in Götaland, which is supposed to be the origin site of the Goths. On another thread the commentary centered on the difference between U152 on the west versus the east side of the lake.

These are all approximations, but it looks like the mix of R1b on both sides of the lake are:

WEST
40% U106x198
24% L21
18% U152
14% P312xL21xU152xSRY2627
5% SRY2627
0% U198

EAST
52% U106x198
19% M269xL11
19% P312xL21xU152xSRY2627
6% U198
6% L21
0% U152
0% SRY2627

The obvious thing has been brought up. U152 didn't make it around or across the lake so this might have been the boundary it hit.

At the same time, L21 is more frequent on the west than east but made it to the east. Perhaps it got there before U152 showed up???  However, L21 didn't make much of a dent on Denmark.

U106xU198 and U198 are both stronger on the east side of the lake, with U198 not making it west. My guess is that U106 came from across the Baltic on east side and edge of the Jutland Peninsula. Perhaps even from the Polish and German coasts via the Island of Gotland. This might have been very early, if the presence of R-M269xL11 east of the lake but not west of it means anything.

Anyway there might have been three main routes of R1b settlement in the Scandinavian Peninsula.

#1: From the east across the Baltic from the German and Polish coasts possibly up the Jutland too, although this R1b group may have come into Jutland from Scandinavia, possibly.... again all early on.  U106, U198, M269xL11, but probably with some probably some P312*/Z196* folks. I would think SRY2627 would with these guys to some degree but maybe they were later.

#2: Slightly behind behind group 1, group 2 was sweeping from the English Channel/Atlantic through the North Sea entering from the west.  Apparently Denmark was already occupied. Group 2 would have been laden with L21, but also some P312* people.

#3: After groups 1 and 2, group 3 comes directly from the Rhine to the Jutland and then across the straights into the Scandinavian Peninsula where they stop because of the prior occupants.  Group 3 is primarily U152, but may have a few drag-alongs.

Just speculating...
Does anyone know anywhere else in Europe with such an enormous amount of M269(xL11)? 19% seems huge to me, especially as L11* seems to be fairly rare everywhere in Europe. I am also astounded that there is no M269(xL11) on the west side of the lake. Is there any explanation for this other than a very early arrival of R1b in the area, which for some reason didn't spread to the other side?
I don't know how large the sample was so I wouldn't get too worked up on M269xL11 just yet.

This differs from what most TMRCA estimators have come up with but I do find higher variance with P312 than U106 so it is possible that pre-U106 L11* and M269xL11 moved further into Europe before U106 arose, in contrast to P312.

L23xL11 is found mostly in the Near East, Anatolia and the Caucasus, according to our FTDNA projects.
M269xL23 is found mostly in the Near East and in Jewish populations even if their MDKA's are not from the Near East.

I think there is a caveat that some of the Jewish populations could have come very late in disaporas. Is there any history of this for SE Sweden?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 07:39:32 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
GoldenHind
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« Reply #72 on: October 27, 2011, 03:43:30 PM »


The sample size for the area in question (Östergötland/Jönköping) was 39.

I am no expert in Swedish demography, but I would be very surprised if this number was due to a Jewish population in the area.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2011, 04:05:53 PM »

In the “SWEDEN PROJECT - Sverigeprojektet - Y-DNA Classic Chart”
no one has DYS426=11, then I think that Sweden hasn’t R1b1a2*, but they all are some subclade of it. Only one has DYS426=13 and is R-L51*. The other with 13 is R-P312*.

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Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #74 on: October 29, 2011, 08:07:12 PM »


L23xL11  (N=172)
Rel Var=1.55 [Mixed 49 STRs]
Rel Var=1.52 [Linear 36 STRs]
AvgGD to R-L23xL11 Modal=19 @67, MaxGD=32

M269xL23  (N=22)
Rel Var=1.05 [Mixed 49 STRs]
Rel Var=0.74 [Linear 36 STRs]
AvgGD to M269xL23=17 @67, MaxGD=32   

L11*  (N=33)
Rel Var=1.06 [Mixed 49 STRs]
Rel Var=0.93 [Linear 36 STRs]
AvgGD to L11* Modal=16 @67, MaxGD=24

.....
L51*  (N=17)
Rel Var=1.16 [Mixed 49 STRs]
Rel Var=1.09 [Linear 36 STRs]
AvgGD to L51*Modal=17 @67, MaxGD=21


As I've noted before, there is not a lot of difference in the STR diversity across R-L11*, U106 and P312 and even L51*.  This was the point of the Busby study or what I call the Busby blob.

However, that changes back up the phylogenetic ladder, with R-L23xL51. STR variance increases significantly so the logic that Busby uses to assert there is a large L11*(S127*) "eastern" clade is applicable to L23xL51 or L23xL11. This looks more like a diverse paragroup.

It is this therefore important to understand R-L23xL51 when looking for the migration/expansion clines of R-M269 in Eurasia.

From our FTDNA projects we have a pretty good sized paragroup of L23xL51 with 200 people.

f128958   Abovyan   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f152972   Afrikyan   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f186372   Amatuni   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
fN57912   Apagian   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f152976   Arghutian   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f149198   Atabekian   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f164210   D'Atabekian   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f172797   Elchian   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f82108   Galstyan   R-L23   Armenia (Armenian project)
f166332   Gulbenk   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f195789   Guloomian   R-L23/L584   Armenia (Armenian project)
f185570   Kalantarian   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
fN53795   Karakashian   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f182302   Karapetian   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f46561   Ketendjian   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f164198   Kniasian   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f195750   Koundakjian   R-L23/L277   Armenia (Armenian project)
f94535   Krikorian   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f170031   Mangassarian   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f188022   Manouchehri   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f164199   Melik-Adamyan   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f174260   Melik-Barkhudaryan   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f155695   Melik-Parsadanyan   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f149196   Melik-Yeganian   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
fN3986   Mouradian   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f184611   Parsadanian   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
fN8825   Vartanian   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f155696   zzzUnkName   R-L23   Armenia (Armenian project)
f152975   zzzUnkName   R-L23   Armenia (Armenian project)
f152974   zzzUnkName   R-L23   Armenia (Armenian project)
f164200   zzzUnkName   R-L23   Armenia (Armenian project)
f164193   zzzUnkName   R-L23   Armenia (Armenian project)
f149197   zzzUnkName   R-L23   Armenia (Armenian project)
f164223   zzzUnkName   R-L23   Armenia (Armenian project)
f184382   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f176676   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f184387   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f172963   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f169453   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f207694   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   Armenia (Armenian project)
f152977   Tersants   R-L23   Armenia, Lori (Armenian project)
f202985   Murad   R-L23*   Armenia, Nakhichevan, Ordubad, Paraga (Armenian project)
f182984   Kurdi   R-L23/L584   Armenia, Urfa (Armenian project)
fN76689   Khalil   R-L23*   Egypt
fN49273   Majmundar   R-L23*   India, Gujarat
fN16373   Khosrovani   R-L23*   Iran
f181273   Abrahamian   R-L23*   Iran (Armenia project)
f166327   Barkhordarian   R-L23*   Iran (Armenia project)
f171777   Melik-Baghdassarian   R-L23*   Iran (Armenia project)
f174245   Melik-Mirzaians   R-L23*   Iran (Armenia project)
f183824   Safarian   R-L23*   Iran (Armenia project)
f73539   Bacchus   R-L23/L584   Iran (Assyrian project)
f205003   Khoshabow   R-L23/L584   Iran (Assyrian project)
f83734   Oshana   R-L23/L584   Iran (Assyrian project)
f60631   Paul   R-L23/L584   Iran (Assyrian project)
fN20819   Pera   R-L23*   Iran (Assyrian project)
fN93831   Solomon   R-L23/L584   Iran (Assyrian project)
f184026   Al Enezi   R-L23**   Iraq
fN83705   Al Enezi   R-L23**   Iraq
f168039   Al-Hashemi   R-L23**   Iraq
f130372   Al-Sharifi   R-L23*   Iraq
f191401   Farage   R-L23*   Iraq
f179347   Rabe'A   R-L23**   Iraq
f205749   Al-Jeloo   R-L23/L584   Iraq (Assyrian project)
f184027   Gorgis   R-L23/L584   Iraq (Assyrian project)
f147979   Hermes   R-L23/L584   Iraq (Assyrian project)
f193303   zzzUnkName(Arab)   R-L23*   Iraq, Dujail (Arab project)
f150841   zzzUnkName   R-L23   Iraq, Zakho (Aramaic project)
f131176   Sahadi   R-L23*   Lebanon, Zahle (Assyrian project)
f202070   Tanoli   R-L23**   Pakistan
f159888   Kubatiev   R-L23**   Russia, Caucasus, Ossetia, Makhchesk
f186395   Ruben   R-L23*   Russia, North Caucasus, Dagestan (Dagestan Lak people)
f152880   Luguev   R-L23*   Russia, North Caucasus, Dagestan, Makhachkala (Jewish project)
f165211   Mohammed   R-L23*   Saudi Arabia
f188757   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   Saudi Arabia
f148828   Bador   R-L23*   Syrian Arab Republic
fN102077   Canpolat   R-L23*   Turkey
fN65915   Gencay   R-L23*   Turkey
f172019   Pipilos   R-L23*   Turkey
f178932   Tastan   R-L23/L584   Turkey
fN71759   Anas   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f162059   Andonian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f164229   Aprahamian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f189873   Asbed   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f184555   Bahlavouni   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f185782   Bedrossian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f174262   Beylerian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f176679   Boyadjian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
fN17464   Garabedian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f187550   Hablanian   R-L23/L584   Turkey (Armenian project)
fN91155   Hampian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f176794   Hovannisian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f167006   Kelechian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f184158   Ketendjian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f164220   Khatchadourian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f156155   Koojoolian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f149195   Mardakhanian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f167776   Markarian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
fN3402   Nishanian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f166322   Paboudjian   R-L23/L584   Turkey (Armenian project)
f185690   Papazian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f182456   Papazian-Pehlivanian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f191405   Philibossian   R-L23/L584   Turkey (Armenian project)
f181425   Samuelian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f185783   Selian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f164219   Sinanian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f166323   Tachjian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
fN74713   Tchekidjian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f162122   Vartian   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f164213   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f196971   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   Turkey (Armenian project)
f90492   Barkho   R-L23/L584   Turkey (Assyrian project)
f61835   Hurmis   R-L23/L584   Turkey (Assyrian project)
f213878   Mezdo   R-L23   Turkey (Assyrian project)
f164226   Kassabian   R-L23*   Turkey, Konya (Armenian project)
f88591   Schoinas   R-L23*   Turkey, Sampsun
fN93606   Irvan   R-L23*   Turkey, Van, Elazig (Armenian project)
fM6266   Al Gurg   R-L23*   United Arab Emirates
fM4000   Ali   R-L23*   United Arab Emirates
f145786   Rizvi   R-L23   Unknown (Badakhshani ? Afghanistan)
fN36264   Feldsott   R-L23*   Belarus, Mogilev, Seletz (Jewish project)
f54168   Stehlik   R-L23*   Czech Republic
f176684   Aznavourian   R-L23*   Georgia, Akhaltsikhe (Armenian project)
f143137   Dreisziger   R-L23*   Hungary
f168032   Mészáros   R-L23*   Hungary
f121597   Zold   R-L23*   Hungary
f160064   Oskolás   R-L23*   Hungary, Bács-Kiskun Co., Kerekegyháza
f164444   Taubner   R-L23   Hungary, Budapest (Jewish project)
f168028   Turzó   R-L23   Hungary, Hajdú-Bihar Co., Szentpéterszeg
f133533   Y D   R-L23*   Kazakhstan
f55790   Kaplanovski   R-L23*   Lithuania (Jewish project)
f45475   Silver   R-L23/L584   Lithuania (Jewish project)
f47937   Iozelsohn   R-L23   Lithuania, Joniskis (Jewish project)
f66841   Movsha   R-L23*   Lithuania, Kovno (Jewish project)
fN9690   Banuk   R-L23*   Lithuania, Musnik
f435   Grossman   R-L23/L277   Lithuania, Suwalki Province (Jewish project)
f118810   Bakaturski   R-L23   Lithuania, Vilnius (Jewish project)
fN36978   Jazenski   R-L23*   Poland
f176123   K   R-L23*   Poland
fN79866   Kowalina   R-L23*   Poland
f14386   Probasco   R-L23*   Poland
f166563   Wollschlaeger   R-L23*   Poland
f92187   Jastrow   R-L23*   Poland (Jewish project)
f129332   Kirszenbaum   R-L23   Poland (Jewish project)
f179596   Tobias   R-L23   Poland (Jewish project)
f99230   Breske   R-L23*   Poland, Greater Poland Voivodeship
fN29316   Sznajderman   R-L23*   Poland, Izbica (Jewish project)
fN68231   Skodinski   R-L23*   Poland, Kuyavian-Pomeranian Voivodeship, Dzialyn
f151766   Makler   R-L23   Poland, Siemiatycze (Jewish project)
f155359   Glowiak   R-L23*   Poland, Subcarpathian Voivodeship, Krzemienica
f169070   Oziemblowski   R-L23*   Poland, Subcarpathian Voivodeship, Przemyśl, Nizankowice
f166680   Feuerstein   R-L23   Slovakia (Jewish project)
f19913   Gottesman   R-L23   Ukraine (Jewish project)
f67609   Goldstein   R-L23/L277   Ukraine, Cherkassy Oblast, Monastyrysce (Jewish project)
f79073   Volkov   R-L23*   Ukraine, Krivoy Rog (Jewish project)
fE12439   Fega   R-L23*   Albania
fN76544   Kajtazi   R-L23*   Albania
fN17459   Kubadin   R-L23*   Bulgaria
fN81217   Moutafov   R-L23*   Bulgaria
f189660   Ömer   R-L23*   Bulgaria
fN85858   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   Bulgaria
f118282   Skoda   R-L23*   Croatia, Split
f87265   Eraklidis   R-L23*   Greece
fN96774   Giannikas   R-L23*   Greece
f191402   Valaris-Valarakis   R-L23*   Greece
fN98739   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   Greece
f77594   Constantini   R-L23*   Greece (Jewish project)
f162445   Panopoulos   R-L23*   Greece, Attica, Marathon, Mati
f84950   Ciulla   R-L23**   Italy
fN23635   Lorenzini   R-L23*   Italy, Ancona, Marche, Senigallia
yPX2JB   zzzUnkName   R-L23   Italy, Campania, Naples
f71436   Giordano   R-L23*   Italy, Campania, Salerno, Sarno
f59966   Massarella   R-L23*   Italy, Lazio, Latina, Fondi
f95875   Stasi   R-L23*   Italy, Potenza, Basilicata, Potenza
f141328   Laduca   R-L23*   Italy, Sicily, Palermo
f67496   Costanza   R-L23*   Italy, Sicily, Palerno, Villafrati
yKV7Y2   Tognoni del Badia   R-L23   Italy, Tuscany, Florence, Castelfiorentino
f30885   Mattoli   R-L23*   Italy, Umbria, Bevagna
fN24333   Zuta   R-L23*   Macedonia, Struga
fE11319   Malagodi   R-L23   Italy, Emilia-Romagna, Ferrara, Cento
fN37809   Romitti   R-L23*   Italy, Lombardy, Mantova, Suzzara
fN37658   Romitti   R-L23*   Italy, Lombardy, Mantova, Suzzara (L150-?)
f182296   Burckhalter   R-L23*   Switzerland
f177152   Burkholder   R-L23/L277   Switzerland
fE7595   Rigal   R-L23   Switzerland
f168224   Rossetti   R-L23*   Switzerland, Ticino, Riveria, Biasca
f138692   Zurcher   R-L23   Switzerland, Zurich, Teufen
f75306   Favre   R-L23*   France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, Bishoporic of Saintes, Royan
f102551   Chausse   R-L23*   France
f204949   Dishman   R-L23*   France
f95535   Wahl   R-L23*   Germany, Saxony-Anhalt, Wittenberg
fN78048   Brickner   R-L23   Germany, Baden-Württemberg
f127630   Ehrman   R-L23*   Germany, Baden-Württemberg
f140135   Ehrman   R-L23*   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Stuttgart, Sichertshausen
f145692   Earhart   R-L23**   Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate, Bad Kreuznach, Staudernheim
fN80089   Cox   R-L23*   Germany
f162581   Gilabert Salort   R-L23*   Spain
f54779   Labi   R-L23   Spain (Jewish project)
fN66406   Seguer   R-L23*   Spain, Valencian Community, Alicante, Marina Baixa, Benidorm
f159189   Robert   R-L23*   Netherlands
f179968   de Wijs   R-L23*   Netherlands, Noord-Brabant, Terheijden
f108347   Seymour   R-L23**   England, East, Hertfordshire, Sawbridgeworth
f107114   Bennett   R-L23*   England, London
f134236   Willing   R-L23*   England, South West, Devonshire, Plymstock
fN58439   Thornton   R-L23*   England, Yorkshire and Humber
f158999   Haynes   R-L23*   England
f26700   Haynes   R-L23*   England
f34316   Haynes   R-L23*   England
f34372   Haynes   R-L23*   England
f168046   Watts   R-L23*   England
f9748   West   R-L23*   England
f5811   Strong   R-L23*   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Donegal, Drumhome Parish
f26521   Blair   R-L23*   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Londonderry, Aghadowey
f40812   Robbins   R-L23*   Scotland
f37486   Robbins   R-L23*   Scotland
f16910   Robinson   R-L23*   Scotland
f82745   Peed   R-L23*   UK
f64409   Smith   R-L23*   UK
f175619   Challacombe   R-L23*   United Kingdom
f204340   Arnstberg   R-L23*   Sweden, Halland and Västergötland, Halland Co., Abild
f178134   Strickland   R-L23*   Unknown Origin
fN51805   Arnwine   R-L23   zzzUnkOrigin
fM3692   B.a.   R-L23**   zzzUnkOrigin
f101678   Cano   R-L23*   zzzUnkOrigin
f163989   Carr   R-L23*   zzzUnkOrigin
fE13227   Goulde   R-L23*   zzzUnkOrigin
f117133   Owens   R-L23*   zzzUnkOrigin
f83616   zzzUnkName   R-L23   zzzUnkOrigin
f104323   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   zzzUnkOrigin
f199843   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   zzzUnkOrigin

« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 08:10:52 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
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