World Families Forums - R-M269xL23, L23xL11 and L11* / ht35 (R1b1a2 except R-P312 and R-U106)

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Author Topic: R-M269xL23, L23xL11 and L11* / ht35 (R1b1a2 except R-P312 and R-U106)  (Read 11558 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: October 06, 2011, 05:38:11 PM »

I'm going to use this thread to post questions and show results for all of the R-M269xL11 and R-L11* haplotypes I can find. The term "ht35" is obsolete but the concept is to look at the subclades and paragroups that are NOT the common Western European R-M269 haplotypes. Myres et al recorded R-P312 and R-U106 as over 96% of all R1b (R-M343) in Western Europe. The percentage drops dramatically as you go east. That's where these guys increase in frequency.

Click here to access the Excel spreadsheet file (may have to create a sign in) http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/files/Haplotype_Data_R-M269a.zip
R-M269xP312xU106 confirmed haplotypes including all subclades. The two large subclades of Western Europe, P312 and U106 are excluded, but L11* is included. 111 marker haplotypes are also included. - M.W. [file is in MS Excel 2010 .xlsm format and can be read by OpenOffice.org 3.3 and resaved to older versions of Excel]

Most of the haplotypes in this are from the ht35 (R-M269 xU106 xP312) project, but I've picked up any I could regardless of the project as long as there was some verification that the subclade testing was done. This is a bit of a challenge when some of the SNP testing is done by different testing companies. I'm relying on the project administrators to classify folks appropriately.

These seem to be the main projects where I'm finding these people.
R1b1a2 P312- U106- ht35: http://www.familytre...ection=yresults
R1b and subclades: http://www.familytre...ection=yresults
Afgan-Pakistan: http://www.familytre...ection=yresults
Arabia R: http://www.familytre...ection=yresults
Aramaic: http://www.familytre...ection=yresults
Armenian: http://www.familytre...ection=yresults
Assyrian: http://www.familytre...ection=yresults
Jewish R1b: http://www.familytre...ection=yresults
Sephardic: http://www.familytre...ection=yresults
Turkey: http://www.familytre...ection=yresults
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 05:48:16 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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seferhabahir
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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2011, 01:04:27 PM »

Mike,

I can't get access to your file. My R-P312 membership has been "pending" for several days now. Can you or Rich expedite this somehow?
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2011, 01:14:03 PM »

I can't get access to your file. My R-P312 membership has been "pending" for several days now. Can you or Rich expedite this somehow?
I thought I approved it and I can't see anything in pending, so I just sent an invitation to your yahoo address. Let me know if you don't get it.
I updated the R-M269a spreadsheet file Friday morning so it should have most of the L11- and L11* people in it by now. It is quite a thing to look through with the vastly different geographic locations in contrast to U106 and P312.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2011, 01:19:48 PM »

I too tried to enter your thread but in vain. My yahoo address is the same:

gioiellotgnn06@gmail.com
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 01:20:26 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2011, 02:03:07 PM »

I can't get access to your file. My R-P312 membership has been "pending" for several days now. Can you or Rich expedite this somehow?
I thought I approved it and I can't see anything in pending, so I just sent an invitation to your yahoo address. Let me know if you don't get it.
I updated the R-M269a spreadsheet file Friday morning so it should have most of the L11- and L11* people in it by now. It is quite a thing to look through with the vastly different geographic locations in contrast to U106 and P312.

I must have asked to join the wrong way. I did not get your email. Is there a way to start over and join again?
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« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2011, 10:13:43 AM »

I too tried to enter your thread....
It looks like you are in.
Quote
Mattoli (B5QG9) is from Bevagna (Umbria) and not from Tuscany. He matches
closely an Anonymous Italian from Naples (PX2JB) and Marks (W2V9F), cluster
DYS390=26 and DYS392=15 and others, but it is enough. They are R-L150+.

I've updated the above. Thank you.  Please do respond to this topic here rather than over in that Yahoo Group which is really just for P312/S116 topics.  I just put the file there as a free place to share it.

I've also added yourself through Ysearch. Do you have an FTDNA kit # as well?

As far as Anonymous PX2JB and Marks W2V9F, even though I added them, I want to have a reference for how we know their SNP status. I think you are saying they are L150+ L51+ L11-. Correct? Is this from Adriano's worksheet or where?

Isn't there an L150+ L51- guy out there?  Who is he?

I'll repost the spreadsheet tonight.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 10:22:29 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2011, 11:33:27 AM »

Mike, I found PX2Jb (Anonymous from Naples) and W2V9F (Marks) as the closest to B5QG9 (Mattoli) on ySearch. Practically they belong to the same haplotype, even though I have found on SMGF, and put on ySearch, a Douglass (UDHGF) with the very rare DYS390=26 and DYS392=15, but he is clearly an R-L21/M222 NW Irish haplotype: probably it would be interesting to exam why there is an haplotype of R-M222 with these two mutations (DYS390=25 and DYS392=14). Like I have always said, we cannot be sure that the modal was at the origin the most diffused 24 and 13, like we aren’t sure that the modal of my R1b1a2a1-L150+ was 14 and not my 15. This for saying that we should take in consideration that those R-L21 of the extreme regions of the British Isles could be also the original and the most ancient and derive from this R-L150. Because these haplotypes are R-L150+ and not R-L51, which have usually DYS426=13.
The Anonymous from Naples has been SNP tested: “M269+ L49+ L23+ L150+ U152- U106- P312- P311- P310- M222- L51- L21-“.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 08:30:57 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2011, 12:12:51 PM »

As what regards me: I was tested by DNAHeritage and also from SMGF: same 43 markers and same results. I have been tested also from deCODEme and 23andme and SNP tested from Ethnoancestry. My results are sure: R-L150+ and negative for all subclades so far known.
My S136+, which shouldn’t be confused with L50 like I have explained many times on the forums, is a deletion of 9bp in the region of L50 and it is evident also on 23andme, resulting a no call at rs13303711 (see my son, the other Tognoni on the “Adriano’s spreadsheet”) whilst the others have a C. But I consider me an L150+ because this mutation has happened between 800 and 1400 AD (present in Giancarlo Tognoni: MRCA on the 15th century, but not in the Fluckigers/Flickingers nor in Dubinsky, probably linked to me at the level of the 8th century).
Now I am under FTDNA like N1614, my relative Giancarlo Tognoni, he too tested by DNAHeritage, like N1621. In the last days of activity of DNAHeritage I was tested also for other 15 markers, but the results I received are different from those registered on the FTDNA project I belong. I asked explications to the administrator Rich Rocca, but I had no reply. Probably Rocca doesn’t like my theory about the origin of R-U152. There are many Italians, above all from South Italy, who probably prefer Switzerland or Germany or even Hungary.
Beyond me and Giancarlo Tognoni you can surely put in your project also my relative Giorgio Tognarelli, R-L150+ by 23andme, and now is processing by FTDNA: 211020. From the first 12 markers he belongs to the most common and diffused haplotype: 12,24,14,11,11-14,12,12,13,13,13,29. He is from Tuscany, but matches a Guastalli from Lunigiana, probably come from Emilia and he could be an Etruscan of the Po Valley and I an Etruscan from Tuscany, but, of course, we cannot exclude a German origin for we all (Lombards, etc.).
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 08:33:38 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2011, 12:35:00 PM »

Mike, I found PX2Jb (Anonymous from Naples) and W2V9F (Marks) as the closest to B5QG9 (Mattoli) on ySearch. Practically they belong to the same haplotype, even though I have found on SMGF, and put on ySearch, a Douglass (UDHGF) with the very rare DYS390=26 and DYS392=15, but he is clearly an R-L21/M222 NW haplotype: probably it would be interesting to exam why there is an haplotype of R-M222 with this two mutation (DYS390=25 and DYS392=14). Like I have always said, we cannot be sure that the modal was at the origin the most diffused 24 and 13, like we aren’t sure that the modal of my R1b1a2a1-L150+ was 14 and not mine 15. This for saying that we should take in consideration that those R-L21 of the extreme regions of the British Isles could be also the original and the most ancient and derive from this R-L150. Because these haplotypes are R-L150+ and not R-L51, which have usually DYS426=13.
The Anonymous from Naples has been SNP tested: “M269+ L49+ L23+ L150+ U152- U106- P312- P311- P310- M222- L51- L21-“.
Okay.  The way I handle this data collection is to only include people that have been SNP tested.  I'll keep Anonymous in as he is L150+ and P311- (equivalent to L11-).

I thought this was discussed before, but who is the L150+ L51- person?  Without that person L150 and L51 appear as practically synonymous.
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« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2011, 01:22:32 PM »

I thought this was discussed before, but who is the L150+ L51- person?  Without that person L150 and L51 appear as practically synonymous.

Sincerely I don't understand who you are referring to. If you could show me "where" and "when" I'd be glad to answer you.
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« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2011, 01:31:21 PM »

There is a Marks on ySearch with only 12 markers (ZBBBK) who matches the other Marks and his origins are in Italy. It seems clear that, whichever is the true surname, these Marks are Italians, being their haplotype present in Italy and not elsewhere.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 08:34:34 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2011, 01:41:09 PM »

Probably they are the same person. If he is the Jack Marks, the baseball player, seen on Youtube, he is certainly of Italian extraction.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2011, 09:47:13 PM »

Brigano (BKXNU) is close to Araya Monestel (MYRKJ) and they are close to these haplotypes (Mattoli etc.). We could think also to a Jewish origin. Marks (Marx) is a Jewish surname and the link between Marks and Mattoli could be old also of more than 2000 years. But I have always put the problem of the true origin of these Jews and of course we wait for the resolutive aDNA.

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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2011, 08:06:15 AM »

Brigano/Brigante (BKXNU): 14,13-28,24,11,15,12,11-14.
That this haplotype is above all Italian I think there are a few doubts: rarely from YHRD we have an answer so clear.

14 13 28 24 10 15 12 11,14 2 >>
14 13 28 24 11 14 12 11,14 17 >>
14 13 28 24 11 15 13 11,14 1 >>

1 14 13 28 24 10 15 12 11,14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 28 24 10 15 12 11,14 12 12 16 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 59 Catanzaro, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 218 Tuscany, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

1 14 13 28 24 11 15 13 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 18 23 12 >>
1 of 384 Ravenna, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
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« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2011, 08:26:34 AM »

And the other 17 where do they come from?

7 14 13 28 24 11 14 12 11,14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
3 14 13 28 24 11 14 12 11,14 12 11 15 19 15 17 23 12 >>
1 14 13 28 24 11 14 12 11,14 12 11 16 19 14 17 23 12 >>
1 14 13 28 24 11 14 12 11,14 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 28 24 11 14 12 11,14 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 28 24 11 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 18 23 13 >>
1 14 13 28 24 11 14 12 11,14 12 13 15 19 16 17 23 12 >>
1 14 13 28 24 11 14 12 11,14 12 14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 28 24 11 14 12 11,14 12 14 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>

3 of 30 Eskikoy, Central Anatolia, Turkey [Turkish] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
2 of 160 Turkey [Turkish] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
2 of 249 Çukurova, Turkey [Turk] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
1 of 212 Costa Rica [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 69 South Dakota, United States [Chippewa/Sioux] Native American North America
1 of 543 Santander, Colombia [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 685 Berlin, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 100 Armenia [Armenian] Eurasian - Caucasian Asia
1 of 77 Georgia [Georgian] Eurasian - Caucasian Asia
1 of 12 Abkhazia, Georgia [Abkhasian] Eurasian - Caucasian Asia
1 of 153 Verona, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 108 Punjab, India [Jat Sikh] Eurasian - Indian Asia
1 of 91 Caceres, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

But if R-L23 were born in Middle East, why haven’t they the highest variance of DYS393=15 from 14?
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« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2011, 10:36:34 AM »

Brigano/Brigante (BKXNU): 14,13-28,24,11,15,12,11-14. ....
Do you have his SNP status?  or the kit # and a project?
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« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2011, 10:38:39 AM »

Does anyone have any information on the following people in the Armenian project?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

They are "predicted" R1b1a2 by FTDNA and I don't see any SNP reported results, but the project admin has them under the category:
R1b1a2a & R1b1a2a1 L49+ L23+ L150+ L51- L11-

184387 Armenia
196971 Turkey
169453 Armenia
164213 Turkey
184382 Armenia
176676 Armenia
202985 Armenia
176684 Georgia
207694 Armenia
172963 Armenia

I'd like to include them in the R-M269 xP312 xU106 spreadsheet I'm maintaining but only if we know their SNP status so we don't misclassify them.

Did these guys test SNPs with other testing companies?
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« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2011, 11:44:50 AM »

Brigano/Brigante (BKXNU): 14,13-28,24,11,15,12,11-14. ....
Do you have his SNP status?  or the kit # and a project?

Of course not, like all those extracted from SMGF, but we can hypothesize their haplogroup by their values, even though it is always dangerous, like recent examples have demonstrated (see Pommier, who seemed an R-L23 and is R-U152). But by his closeness with other R-L23-L150+ makes us be pretty sure about his haplogroup.
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« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2011, 11:45:32 AM »

The cluster of R1b1a2* of Fiozzo (5VU5V) finds a closer Italian in Cervino (N4Y6V).


Cervino (12,24,14,11,11-15,11,12,11,12,15,28)
1 14 12 28 24 11 15 12 11,15 12 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 135 Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [African] African - Afro-American Latin America
1 14 12 28 24 11 14 12 11,15 12 11 16 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 30 Piazza Armerina, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe

14 12 27 24 11 14 12 11,15 1 >>
14 12 28 24 10 14 12 11,15 1 >>
14 12 28 24 11 13 12 11,15 1 >>
14 12 28 24 11 15 12 11,15 1 >>
14 12 28 24 11 14 12 11,14 1 >>
14 12 28 24 11 14 12 11,16 1 >>

Fiozzo (12,25,14,11,11-15,11,12,12,12,14,28)
1 14 12 28 24 11 14 12 11,15 12 11 16 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 30 Piazza Armerina, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe

14 12 27 24 11 14 12 11,15 1 >>
14 12 28 24 10 14 12 11,15 1 >>
14 12 28 24 11 13 12 11,15 1 >>
14 12 28 24 11 15 12 11,15 1 >> [Cervino]
14 12 28 24 11 14 12 11,14 1 >>
14 12 28 24 11 14 12 11,16 1 >>

1 14 12 27 24 11 14 12 11,15 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 217 Dubai, United Arab Emirates [Arabs] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Asia

1 14 12 28 24 10 14 12 11,15 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 12 >>
1 of 1079 Australia [European] Eurasian - European - Western European Oceania / Australia

1 14 12 28 24 11 13 12 11,15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 35 Oregon, United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America

1 14 12 28 24 11 14 12 11,14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 155 New York City, United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America

1 14 12 28 24 11 14 12 11,16 12 12 16 19 16 16 23 12 >>
1 of 427 Córdoba, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
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« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2011, 09:28:06 PM »

You have put Mangini (75, f46835) amongst the R-M269, but I demonstrated to Vizachero that he is R1b1*. Vizachero agreed and put him under R1b1* but left him also under R-M269. It is a mistake.
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« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2011, 11:56:34 PM »

You have put Mangini (75, f46835) amongst the R-M269, but I demonstrated to Vizachero that he is R1b1*. Vizachero agreed and put him under R1b1* but left him also under R-M269. It is a mistake.
I'm not following what you are saying. The ht35 project has Mangini categorized as "_R1b1a2: L23- L51- L11-"
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=yresults

My understanding is that means M269+ L23-.

I just went to the FTDNA project screen Y DNA SNP report. For this guy it says:
Quote from: FTDNA
46835    Mangino    R1b1a2    R-M269    L1-, L2-, L20-, L21-, L23-, L4-, L48-, L49-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P310-, P311-, P312-, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-

I see the M269+ and L23-.  Why are you saying something different?

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« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2011, 02:54:52 AM »

My hypothesis is that M269+ is a mistake and he is, respect his values, M269- and R1b1*. If he were really M269+, he is the person with the highest variance of M269+ we know and I would be very glad, because it would be a point in favour of my theory of the Italian origin of this haplogroup.
Humanist, in a spreadsheet of his, found Mangino as the most ancient haplotype. Unfortunately I think that FTDNA did a mistake. Probably it would be interesting to test him again and to fund. It needs only 29$, and I'd be glad to contribute.
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« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2011, 03:00:09 AM »

Another possibility, even more interesting, would be that Mangino is really M269+, but probably negative for some other SNP of the long chain that brings to the so far tested M269+, and he would be, like Romitti for L150, the remaining of these intermediate haplotypes, and also this would be a strong point in favour of my theories.
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« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2011, 03:23:04 PM »

Mike, I found PX2Jb (Anonymous from Naples) and W2V9F (Marks) as the closest to B5QG9 (Mattoli) on ySearch. Practically they belong to the same haplotype, even though I have found on SMGF, and put on ySearch, a Douglass (UDHGF) with the very rare DYS390=26 and DYS392=15, but he is clearly an R-L21/M222 NW Irish haplotype: probably it would be interesting to exam why there is an haplotype of R-M222 with these two mutations (DYS390=25 and DYS392=14). Like I have always said, we cannot be sure that the modal was at the origin the most diffused 24 and 13, like we aren’t sure that the modal of my R1b1a2a1-L150+ was 14 and not my 15. This for saying that we should take in consideration that those R-L21 of the extreme regions of the British Isles could be also the original and the most ancient and derive from this R-L150. Because these haplotypes are R-L150+ and not R-L51, which have usually DYS426=13.
The Anonymous from Naples has been SNP tested: “M269+ L49+ L23+ L150+ U152- U106- P312- P311- P310- M222- L51- L21-“.


30885 Nicolo' Mattoli year 1475 Italy R1b1a2a1
12 26 14 11 11-15 12 12 13 12 15 27 15 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 29 15-16-16-18 11 11 19-23 16 15 19 18 35-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 15 8 11 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 37 15 9 16 12 25 26 19 11 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 13 12 25 13 10 10 22 15 19 13 25 17 12 15 23 12 23 19 10 14 18 9 11 11

118515   Unknown Origin R1b1a2 (but in the Italian Project)
12 26 14 10 12-14 12 12 13 12 15 27 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-16-16-18 11 11 19-23 15 16 19 18 36-37 12 12  
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 03:31:58 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2011, 05:09:37 PM »

My hypothesis is that M269+ is a mistake and he is, respect his values, M269- and R1b1*. If he were really M269+, he is the person with the highest variance of M269+ we know and I would be very glad, because it would be a point in favour of my theory of the Italian origin of this haplogroup.
Humanist, in a spreadsheet of his, found Mangino as the most ancient haplotype. Unfortunately I think that FTDNA did a mistake. Probably it would be interesting to test him again and to fund. It needs only 29$, and I'd be glad to contribute.
I don't have f46835 Mangino in of my projects but I think you have a great idea.  I see what you mean that his STR results don't seem to match the SNP, but I hesitate to assume the SNP tests are wrong.... although we have seen mistakes in the past.

I don't think Vince V is very active on this R1b ht3 project anymore but Peter H is.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx

Please contact Peter. His email is at the project web site.  We should do something to get a confirmation from FTDNA.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 05:09:54 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
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