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Author Topic: R-M269xL23, L23xL11 and L11* / ht35 (R1b1a2 except R-P312 and R-U106)  (Read 10489 times)
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« Reply #100 on: October 30, 2011, 11:03:53 PM »

His screen name escapes me at the moment, but I believe we already have one Assyrian guy who participates here. Maybe he'll catch these last few posts and chime in.

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« Reply #101 on: October 30, 2011, 11:09:18 PM »

... Assyrian guy who participates here. ....

This intended mostly in humor....

Perhaps we've been looking in the wrong places for the Gengis Kahn or Niall of R-L11 and he's been right under our "historical knowledge" nose... a Sargon the Great. LOL.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 11:09:40 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #102 on: October 30, 2011, 11:11:58 PM »

I emailed the guy you recommended from the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project and invited him to join us.
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« Reply #103 on: October 31, 2011, 09:21:01 AM »

His screen name escapes me at the moment, but I believe we already have one Assyrian guy who participates here. Maybe he'll catch these last few posts and chime in.
He is here like "Humanist". Read, please, what I have written to him during these last years and where was born his mt HV4a... in Italy!
I'll add something later about what he and you all have said.  Anyway about Euphratic there is a thread here where I have written a lot.
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« Reply #104 on: October 31, 2011, 10:35:18 AM »

Here is one additional piece of information that Handschar (Givargis) brought up.  This is part of the reason I went through all the DYS393/DYS426 changes in the different steps of the R-M269 ladder.

I recognize that basing a complete theory on one marker is not a great idea, but perhaps this is a clue.  We all know that 393=13 is the value for WAMH, including P312, U106 and L11*. 393=12 is of low frequency in the L11 family.

L11* is only 4% 393<=12, the rest is almost all =13.

Move back up the phylogenetic ladder one step and the 393=13 modal holds.
L51xL11 is 0% 393<=12, 100% 393=13

Move up the ladder another step and we see the transition from 393=12 has occurred. This also holds for M269xL23 so it appears 393=12 is modal at these levels of the tree.
L23xL51 is 89% 393<=12

So L23xL51 is where the main transition occurred to 393=13. L51+ clearly seems to have had its start.  Where in L23xL51 did this happen?

The minority of L23xL51 is the 393=13 and that minority is primarily found in Assyrians, Armenians and Switzerland.  Handschar's point is that as a frequency level, 393=13 is highest in the L23xL51 Assyrians rather than in the other groups so the hypothesis would be the ancestral populations of the Assyrians would be where we should look for L51*'s pre-L11 lineage to have branched from.

Here is something else that is interesting. Not sure if it is meaningful, but noticing the Swiss L23xL51 393=13 contingent I looked through the rest of Central and Western Europe.  Turns out there is a very clear cut pattern. 393=13 occurs only in non-Northern European L23XL51, Switzerland, Greece, Albania and Italy. The furthest north I can find it is one in Baden-Wurtemburg and one in Eastern Hungary.

L23xL51 393<=12 folks in Europe do occur in good numbers in Italy, Greeces, etc. and all the way up to Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, etc.  and of course England where testing rates are high.  It's just that L23xL51 393=13 is absent in the Isles, Poland, Hungary, most of Germany, etc.   It's absent in France and Spain too.  There is a near unanimity of 393=12 among L23xL51 across Northern Europe and then down the Atlantic.




That I would tend to take as meaning the 393=13 group are a very specific, maybe later movement while I would tend to think the 'ancestral' form 393=12 may be telling us more about where L23 was located in the more remote past.  The gap between L23 and the next downstream seems really substantial and could represent a pretty long hiatus if Mike's variance calculations are anything to go by. One question.  Is there a difference in variance between Anatolian and European L23* with 393=12.  I just wondered if there how much of that hiatus was spent in Asia Minor and how much was spent in Europe.
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« Reply #105 on: October 31, 2011, 01:26:21 PM »

I posted this on another forum, a few weeks back.

Quote
R-M269 DYS393 values (%s) in Anatolia, N Syria, and N Mesopotamia. I do not have the frequencies of R-M269 for each region of Turkey, however.

"Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia."  Cinnioglu et al.

The principal populations today, of the regions marked on the map of Turkey, are not to be taken as precise. Locations marked as Alawi, Assyrian, and Armenian are approximations of average ancestral points of origin. E Turkey for the Armenians, N Iraq for the Assyrians, and NW Syria for the Alawites.

The Assyrian and Armenian locations are consistent with the results of a MDS plot recently created by David of Eurogenes.  I superimposed the plot over a map of the relevant region. 

Also, yes, we speak a Semitic tongue.  However, N Mesopotamia was predominantly Hurrian/Subarean before the region was "Semitized."  Then, before the Middle and Neo-Assyrian periods, Mitanni controlled N Mesopotamia.   

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff420/AramaicDNA/Cinnioglu_ydna.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff420/AramaicDNA/MidEastMap_Eurogenes_MDS_102511.jpg

Alawi data is based on haplotypes published in Donbak et al.  Haplotypes were put through Athey's predictor.   
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 01:29:11 PM by Humanist » Logged

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« Reply #106 on: November 01, 2011, 08:28:08 AM »

One thing seems clear to me about R1b.  The evidence for a spread from south of the Black Sea into SE Europe seems far more convincing than a north of the Black Sea origin. This at least to some degree might be tied in with a similar movement of dairy pastoralism which has recently been worked about as moving from NW Anatolian to Bulgaria and then the rest of Europe from there.  

I personally find the linguistic evidence of basic structure more indicative of a similar origin and spread.  If Anatolian is a pre-proto-IE language and possibly Euphratic is a pre-pre-proto-IE language then it is normal to place the homeland or area of evolution of a language in an area where there are ancestral forms.  For that reason I think the amended Renfrew version that has a pre-proto IE language in Anatolia send of an offshoot into SE Europe which evolved into proto-IE may be nearer the truth.  I think his model needs tweaked in terms of details and timing but what he has suggested does bear at least a passing resemblance to the spread of dairying.  

Personally my feeling is that the kurgan thing is all wrong and is really inherited baggage.  Clearly the Kurgan/R1a etc aspect is part of the IE story but I suspect it was never more than the eastern part of the story.  I suppose my gut feeling is that the Kurgan peoples were the receivers rather than the doner. I simply ask what was the end product of their intrusion into Europe?  They were absorbed and their way of life soon disappeared just as happened to other steppe nomad groups who later impacted into eastern Europe.

Personally I suspect that the Kurgan peoples were Indo-Europeanised by R1b peoples and not the other way round.   Unfortunately Anthony's book as the latest popular book on the subject gives the impression of being the final word on the subject but ultimately his book fails to explain IE beyond the eastern fringes of Europe in anything other than through a fluffy interpretation and presents very little evidence.  

His attempt to present linguistic evidence of objects etc as a knockout punch to be honest is a revival of an old approach that has long been considered incapable of producing a knockout punch.  He is probably right that the very first farmers who passed into Europe in the 7th Millenium were not IE (it has been suggested they came by boat from the Levant - Semitic?) but his methods IMO in no way can distinguise between  his Kurgan model and an alternative of PIE evolving in SE Europe from an Anatolian offshoot in the 5th millenium.  Those options are geographically and chronologically too close to call.    
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 10:20:34 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #107 on: November 01, 2011, 09:04:11 AM »

Here is one additional piece of information that Handschar (Givargis) brought up.  This is part of the reason I went through all the DYS393/DYS426 changes in the different steps of the R-M269 ladder.

I recognize that basing a complete theory on one marker is not a great idea, but perhaps this is a clue.  We all know that 393=13 is the value for WAMH, including P312, U106 and L11*. 393=12 is of low frequency in the L11 family.

L11* is only 4% 393<=12, the rest is almost all =13.

Move back up the phylogenetic ladder one step and the 393=13 modal holds.
L51xL11 is 0% 393<=12, 100% 393=13

Move up the ladder another step and we see the transition from 393=12 has occurred. This also holds for M269xL23 so it appears 393=12 is modal at these levels of the tree.
L23xL51 is 89% 393<=12

So L23xL51 is where the main transition occurred to 393=13. L51+ clearly seems to have had its start.  Where in L23xL51 did this happen?

The minority of L23xL51 is the 393=13 and that minority is primarily found in Assyrians, Armenians and Switzerland.  Handschar's point is that as a frequency level, 393=13 is highest in the L23xL51 Assyrians rather than in the other groups so the hypothesis would be the ancestral populations of the Assyrians would be where we should look for L51*'s pre-L11 lineage to have branched from.

Here is something else that is interesting. Not sure if it is meaningful, but noticing the Swiss L23xL51 393=13 contingent I looked through the rest of Central and Western Europe.  Turns out there is a very clear cut pattern. 393=13 occurs only in non-Northern European L23XL51, Switzerland, Greece, Albania and Italy. The furthest north I can find it is one in Baden-Wurtemburg and one in Eastern Hungary.

L23xL51 393<=12 folks in Europe do occur in good numbers in Italy, Greeces, etc. and all the way up to Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, etc.  and of course England where testing rates are high.  It's just that L23xL51 393=13 is absent in the Isles, Poland, Hungary, most of Germany, etc.   It's absent in France and Spain too.  There is a near unanimity of 393=12 among L23xL51 across Northern Europe and then down the Atlantic.

That I would tend to take as meaning the 393=13 group are a very specific, maybe later movement while I would tend to think the 'ancestral' form 393=12 may be telling us more about where L23 was located in the more remote past.  The gap between L23 and the next downstream seems really substantial and could represent a pretty long hiatus if Mike's variance calculations are anything to go by. One question.  Is there a difference in variance between Anatolian and European L23* with 393=12.  I just wondered if there how much of that hiatus was spent in Asia Minor and how much was spent in Europe.
I was a little surprised to see this differentiation, but here it is.

Relative Variance for R-L23xL51 where 393<=12
Anatolia/SW Asia _______ 1.81 to 1.88
Europe(incl. Steppes) __ 0.97 to 1.11


It looks to be significantly older in Anatolia/SW Asia. The age in Europe is essentially no older than U152.  This gives the implication that the Busby blob of indiscernible R-L11 STR diversity across Europe would have a parallel with R-L23xL11, but only in Europe.

True, this is not an academic analysis, but we have the depth of data and have peeled the onion of R-M269 subclades back (other threads.) We can see that the oldest subclades/paragroups of R-L11 in Europe, U152, P312*, U106*, U198, Z196, L21 and L48; as well as L11*, L51* and European only R-L23xL51 are all about the same age.

The implications to me are two-fold. First that R-M269, as a whole, made the vast majority of its migration into and through Europe pretty quickly. Second, looking at the locations of R-M269xL11 cousins in Europe won't tell us much since they were just cousins on the same ride, not remnants of an earlier migration. This would also pretty much blow up the last hopes for the R-M269 is Mesolithic or Paleolithic in Europe hypothesis. At least all of Europe except perhaps the southeast would be out of the picture.

I think we should keep in mind there is a caveat that relying on a single STR marker for differentiating R-L23xL51 into subgroup is not ideal although I do see Busby citing another study for an eastern subclade of R-L11 based just two STRs if I remember correctly.

EDIT: Fixed the typo where L21 was used instead of L23. The above should be correct now.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 11:31:20 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #108 on: November 01, 2011, 09:28:49 AM »

One thing seems clear to me about R1b.  The evidence for a spread from south of the Black Sea into SE Europe seems far more convincing than a north of the Black Sea origin. This at least to some degree might be tied in with a similar movement of dairy pastoralism which has recently been worked about as moving from NW Anatolian in Bulgaria and then the rest of Europe from there.  

I personally find the linguistic evidence of basic structure more indicative of a similar origin and spread.  If Anatolian is a pre-proto-IE language and possibly Euphratic is a pre-pre-proto-IE language then it is normal to place the homeland or area of evolution of a language in an area where there are ancestral forms.  For that reason I think the amended Renfrew version that has a pre-proto IE language in Anatolia send of an offshoot into SE Europe which evolved into proto-IE may be nearer the truth.  I think his model needs tweaked in terms of details and timing but what he has suggested does bear at least a passing resemblance to the spread of dairying.  

Personally my feeling is that the kurgan thing is all wrong and is really inherited baggage.  Clearly the Kurgan/R1a etc aspect is part of the IE story but I suspect it was never more than the eastern part of the story.  I suppose my gut feeling is that the Kurgan peoples were the receivers rather than the doner. I simply ask what was the end product of their intrusion into Europe?  They were absorbed and their way of life soon disappeared just as happened to other steppe nomad groups who later impacted into eastern Europe.

Personally I suspect that the Kurgan peoples were Indo-Europeanised by R1b peoples and not the other way round.   Unfortunately Anthony's book as the latest popular book on the subject gives the impression of being the final word on the subject but ultimately his book fails to explain IE beyond the eastern fringes of Europe in anything other than through a fluffy interpretation and presents very little evidence.  

His attempt to present linguistic evidence of objects etc as a knockout punch to be honest is a revival of an old approach that has long been considered incapable of producing a knockout punch.  He is probably right that the very first farmers were not IE but his methods IMO in no way can distinguise between  his Kurgan model and an alternative of PIE evolving in SE Europe from an Anatolian offshoot in the 5th millenium.  Those options are geographically and chronologically too close to call.    

Yes, I find it much harder to believe the technologies and language were exported by the Steppe as well. Given the proximity of Anatolian languages, it makes sense that R1b has a major role in spreading PIE to the Balkans, while those Steppe tribes on the outer periphery picked it up, along with lactose tolerance.
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« Reply #109 on: November 01, 2011, 09:56:46 AM »

Mike writes: “Relative Variance for R-L21xL51 where 393<=12
Anatolia/SW Asia _______ 1.81 to 1.88
Europe(incl. Steppes) __ 0.97 to 1.11”.

Probably you wanted to write: R-L23xL51…

But what does it mean this? You presuppose that the subclades of R-L23 were born from an R-L23 with DYS393=13 and that this haplotype was more in Anatolia than in Europe.
This reasoning doesn’t fit at all.

We don’t know anything of this. The mutation may be happened from an R-L23/DYS393=12, the mutation of the Eastern R-L23/DYS393=13 may be happened after and independently etc. etc.

You should watch to the path of an haplogroup: there isn’t R-L23/L150+ without R-L23/L150-, there isn’t R-L11 without R-L51 etc.
And all this path is in Italy and not in Anatolia or elsewhere.
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« Reply #110 on: November 01, 2011, 10:14:54 AM »

Very interesting Mike.  That pretty well nails M269 as a clade which spent most of its life in Asia Minor/SW Asia before mysteriously doing a massive burst across Europe.  

One thing though I do recall VV doing some work in looking at each layer from L11 to M269 and there was a gradual trend towards SE Europe on average as you went upstream.  So, there may still be a subtle pattern there.

Certainly it does make the whole story of M269 as an essentially Anatolian/SW Asian lineage that managed to do something spectacular in Europe for some unknown reason.  I assume if European R1b from L23 downwards is usually considered around 4-5000 years old then if Asian/Anatolian L23* is nearly twice the age then it would be c. 8-10000 years old.  However, its lack of presence so far in Neolithic ancient DNA in Europe could (unless it is down to the tiny sample) be some sort of indicator that it was positioned peripheral to the main sources of European first Neolithic  (which one recent study suggest was actually from the Levant by sea).  Perhaps it was located to the north of the Levant in Anatolia and Mesopotamia, two areas which have been suggested as featuring ancestral languages to proto-Indo-European.  I would quite like to think R1b folks had ancestors in ancient Mesopotamia.  That would rate highly on the coolometer!
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« Reply #111 on: November 01, 2011, 10:16:02 AM »

I was a little surprised to see this differentiation, but here it is.

Relative Variance for R-L21xL51 where 393<=12
Anatolia/SW Asia _______ 1.81 to 1.88
Europe(incl. Steppes) __ 0.97 to 1.11


It looks to be significantly older in Anatolia/SW Asia. The age in Europe is essentially no older than U152.  This gives the implication that the Busby blob of indiscernible R-L11 STR diversity across Europe would have a parallel with R-L23xL11, but only in Europe.

True, this is not an academic analysis, but we have the depth of data and have peeled the onion of R-M269 subclades back (other threads.) We can see that the oldest subclades/paragroups of R-L11 in Europe, U152, P312*, U106*, U198, Z196, L21 and L48; as well as L11*, L51* and European only R-L23xL51 are all about the same age.

The implications to me are two-fold. First that R-M269, as a whole, made the vast majority of its migration into and through Europe pretty quickly. Second, looking at the locations of R-M269xL11 cousins in Europe won't tell us much since they were just cousins on the same ride, not remnants of an earlier migration. This would also pretty much blow up the last hopes for the R-M269 is Mesolithic or Paleolithic in Europe hypothesis. 

I think we should keep in mind there is a caveat that relying on a single STR marker for differentiating R-L23xL51 into subgroup is not ideal although I do see Busby citing another study for an eastern subclade of R-L11 based just two STRs if I remember correctly.

Interesting, it suggests that L23 was the pioneer subclade into Europe from Anatolia.  However, it stayed in SE Europe quite a while during the neolithic only to expand with the bulk of L51+ later on.  Basically, today's L23* leaves a variance or TMRCA more reflecting the history of it's descendants expansion who emerged somewhere in Central-East or Southeast Europe.  It's just that the frequency happens to be higher for L23* in SE Europe/Anatolia because it had an established foothold since the neolithic.
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« Reply #112 on: November 01, 2011, 12:00:27 PM »

Mike writes: “Relative Variance for R-L21xL51...”.
Probably you wanted to write: R-L23xL51…
Yes, I edited that. I meant R-L23xL51.

Quote from: Maliclavelli
But what does it mean this? You presuppose that the subclades of R-L23 were born from an R-L23 with DYS393=13 and that this haplotype was more in Anatolia than in Europe.
This reasoning doesn’t fit at all.
Why? I didn't originate the idea but I see the logic of looking for the transition from DYS393=12 to DYS393=13 in L23+ L51- people as L51+ and L11+, etc. downstream are heavily DYS393=13.

Quote from: Maliclavelli
... The mutation may be happened from an R-L23/DYS393=12, the mutation of the Eastern R-L23/DYS393=13 may be happened after and independently etc. etc.
I agree. That's why I included the caveat.
... we should keep in mind there is a caveat that relying on a single STR marker for differentiating R-L23xL51 into subgroup is not ideal ...
That's why I'm a stickler on SNPs versus using an STR or two to predict haplogroups. I separated things out as far as I could with SNPs in this analysis. The only available method to dig deeper was to look at STRs and DYS393 does show clear patterns, as a whole, within R-M269 populations.

Quote from: Maliclavelli
You should watch to the path of an haplogroup: there isn’t R-L23/L150+ without R-L23/L150-, there isn’t R-L11 without R-L51 etc.
And all this path is in Italy and not in Anatolia or elsewhere.
What path are you talking about? One does not a trend make. That's the problem with trying to discern L150+/L150-. There's only one person. That doesn't provide much evidence to anchor a theory.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 12:06:45 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #113 on: November 01, 2011, 11:09:12 PM »

I posted this on another forum, a few weeks back.

Quote
R-M269 DYS393 values (%s) in Anatolia, N Syria, and N Mesopotamia. I do not have the frequencies of R-M269 for each region of Turkey, however.

"Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia."  Cinnioglu et al.

The principal populations today, of the regions marked on the map of Turkey, are not to be taken as precise. Locations marked as Alawi, Assyrian, and Armenian are approximations of average ancestral points of origin. E Turkey for the Armenians, N Iraq for the Assyrians, and NW Syria for the Alawites.

The Assyrian and Armenian locations are consistent with the results of a MDS plot recently created by David of Eurogenes.  I superimposed the plot over a map of the relevant region.  

Also, yes, we speak a Semitic tongue.  However, N Mesopotamia was predominantly Hurrian/Subarean before the region was "Semitized."  Then, before the Middle and Neo-Assyrian periods, Mitanni controlled N Mesopotamia.  

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff420/AramaicDNA/Cinnioglu_ydna.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff420/AramaicDNA/MidEastMap_Eurogenes_MDS_102511.jpg

Alawi data is based on haplotypes published in Donbak et al.  Haplotypes were put through Athey's predictor.  

I've said before that my opinion, although not academically verified, is that the first known R1b ancient DNA is King Tutankhamun. This is based on reading the STR information that was displayed. This is admittedly speculative.

Wikipedia said...
Quote
At the beginning of its history, Mitanni's major rival was Egypt under the Thutmosids. However, with the ascent of the Hittite empire, Mitanni and Egypt made an alliance to protect their mutual interests from the threat of Hittite domination. At the height of its power, during the 14th century BC.

Quote
{Tutankhamun}(approx. 1341 BC – 1323 BC) was an Egyptian pharaoh of the 18th dynasty (ruled ca. 1333 BC – 1323 BC in the conventional chronology), during the period of Egyptian history known as the New Kingdom.

Quote
{New Kingdon}Possibly as a result of the foreign rule of the Hyksos during the Second Intermediate Period, the New Kingdom saw Egypt attempt to create a buffer between the Levant and Egypt, and attained its greatest territorial extent.

The Mitanni allied with Tutankhamun's dynasty. Why not if they were cousins?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 11:12:25 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #114 on: November 02, 2011, 01:38:18 PM »

...
I was a little surprised to see this differentiation, but here it is.

Relative Variance for R-L23xL51 where 393<=12
Anatolia/SW Asia _______ 1.81 to 1.88
Europe(incl. Steppes) __ 0.97 to 1.11


There is a concern that the above analysis was relegated to 393<=12. Here is the analysis when you using all R-L23xL11 (all of it).  As you can see, it makes little difference.

Relative Variance for R-L23xL51
Anatolia/SW Asia _______ 1.79 to 1.80 (N=87)
Europe(incl. Steppes) __ 1.03 to 1.15 (N=67)

It makes little difference. R-L23xL51 looks to be significantly older in Anatolia/SW Asia.  The variants of it in Europe appear no older than U152.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 01:40:26 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #115 on: November 02, 2011, 08:12:58 PM »

It is curious that L23* in Anatolia is nearly twice as old as L23* in Asia Minor/SW Asia.  Even by normal reckoning of variance calculation done by many in this hobby that would make it maybe 10 thousand years old outside Europe.  What strikes me is that is old enough  that it should have been swept along with any first farmers that passed by through Anatolia unless

1.  The first European farmers did not arrive from Anatolia.

2. It was not located in Anatolia

3. Both of the above.

It has been suggested in a recent study of flora that Europe was settled more from the Levant by sea than Anatolia.  If that is correct (and I think it does need further study) then its absence in early Neolithic Europe (if this is real)  could at least indirectly be telling us that L23 was not located in the Levant at that time. 

If it was an Anatolian Neolithic clade then it would be surprising if it wasnt brought from their with the secondary spread of dairying from NW Anatolia in the 5th millenium BC.  So either it might be older than the variance in Europe is suggesting or perhaps this is indicating that L23 was not located in NW Anatolia at that time.  If it was neither in the Levant or Anatolia until after this period then where was it hiding? 

Questions rather than answers! 
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« Reply #116 on: November 02, 2011, 08:35:54 PM »

This is probably a silly question but if you apply the non-Zhiv rates etc and use the normal variance methods applied to R1b in this hobby then how young is R1a in Europe?
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« Reply #117 on: November 08, 2011, 10:26:30 AM »

I posted this on another forum, a few weeks back.

Quote
R-M269 DYS393 values (%s) in Anatolia, N Syria, and N Mesopotamia. I do not have the frequencies of R-M269 for each region of Turkey, however.

"Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia."  Cinnioglu et al.

The principal populations today, of the regions marked on the map of Turkey, are not to be taken as precise. Locations marked as Alawi, Assyrian, and Armenian are approximations of average ancestral points of origin. E Turkey for the Armenians, N Iraq for the Assyrians, and NW Syria for the Alawites.

The Assyrian and Armenian locations are consistent with the results of a MDS plot recently created by David of Eurogenes.  I superimposed the plot over a map of the relevant region.  

Also, yes, we speak a Semitic tongue.  However, N Mesopotamia was predominantly Hurrian/Subarean before the region was "Semitized."  Then, before the Middle and Neo-Assyrian periods, Mitanni controlled N Mesopotamia.  

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff420/AramaicDNA/Cinnioglu_ydna.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff420/AramaicDNA/MidEastMap_Eurogenes_MDS_102511.jpg

Alawi data is based on haplotypes published in Donbak et al.  Haplotypes were put through Athey's predictor.  

I copied the below from dna-forums today.
Quote from: handschar
Some observations.  

I split the North Mesopotamian (nearly all Assyrians of the "Nestorian" faith.  Chaldean Catholics, Syriac Orthodox, and N Iraq Jews have not tested in any significant numbers) group by DYS392=13 (L584 FTDNA tested and possible), and DYS392=14 ("L277" 23andMe SNP result and possible).  For additional marker values (if available), please see the Assyrian and Aramaic projects.

North Mesopotamian Group 1 ("L277", similar haplotypes, and all other DYS392=14)

191401    12    25    14    11    11    13    12    12    12    12    14    28
190249    12    23    12    11    11    15    12    12    12    13    14    28
213878    12    24    15    11    11    14    12    12    12    12    14    27
150841    12    25    14    10    11    13    12    12    12    13    14    29
SMGF      12    24    14    10    12    14    12    12    12    13    14    29
N20819    12    26    14    11    11    14    12    12    13    13    14    29
154393    12    24    13    11    11    14    12    12    13    13    14    30


North Mesopotamian Group 2 (L584+ and similar haplotypes)

184027   12    24    14    10    12    15    12    12    12    12    13    26
147979   12    24    14    11    12    14    12    12    12    13    13    29
90492    12    24    13    10    11    14    12    12    12    14    13    30
60631    13    24    14    10    11    14    12    12    11    14    13    30
213562   13    24    14    10    11    14    12    12    12    14    13    30
61835    13    24    14    10    11    14    12    12    12    14    13    30
205003   13    24    14    10    11    14    12    12    12    14    13    30
N93831   13    24    14    10    11    14    12    12    12    14    13    30
83734    13    24    14    10    11    14    12    12    12    14    13    30
73539    13    24    14    10    11    14    12    12    12    14    13    30
205749   13    24    14    11    11    14    12    12    12    14    13    30


The N Syrian Alawite R1b presumed or possible haplotypes, based on Athey's predictor, from the data published in Donbak et al.  All haplotypesDYS392=13.

n=1    12    23    14    10    11    14    xx    xx    xx    14    13    30
n=1    12    24    14    10    10    14    xx    xx    xx    12    13    29
n=1    12    24    14    10    11    14    xx    xx    xx    13    13    29
n=1    12    24    14    11    11    14    xx    xx    xx    14    13    30
n=2    12    24    14    12    11    14    xx    xx    xx    14    13    30
n=1    12    24    14    12    11    14    xx    xx    xx    13    13    29
n=3    12    25    14    11    11    14    xx    xx    xx    13    13    29
n=1    12    25    14    12    11    14    xx    xx    xx    14    13    30
n=5    13    24    14    11    11    15    xx    xx    xx    13    13    29
n=2    13    24    14    11    11    15    xx    xx    xx    12    13    28
n=12   13    24    14    11    11    15    xx    xx    xx    14    13    30
n=1    13    24    14    10    11    15    xx    xx    xx    14    13    30
n=1    13    24    14    11    11    15    xx    xx    xx    15    13    31
n=1    13    24    14    11    10    15    xx    xx    xx    15    13    31
n=1    13    24    16    10    11    14    xx    xx    xx    14    13    30


All non-Assyrian L584+ confirmed ht35 project participants are DYS392=13.  

All Jewish Cohanim L584+ group confirmed or presumed ("Group A") are DYS392=13.

All non-Assyrian "L277" 23andMe ht35 project participants are DYS392=14.

All Jewish Cohanim "L277" 23andMe or presumed ("Group B") are DYS392=14.

Here is some discussion on the ancestry of the Alawi.
Quote from: Wikipedia
The sect seems to have been organised by a follower of Muḥammad ibn Nuṣayr known as al-Khasibi, who died in Aleppo about 969. In 1032 Al-Khaṣībī's grandson and pupil al-Tabarani moved to Latakia, which was then controlled by the Byzantine Empire. Al-Tabarani became the perfector of the Alawi faith through his numerous writings. He and his pupils converted the rural population of the Syrian Coastal Mountain Range and the plain of Cilicia to the Alawi faith. Samuel Lyde believed the population was of ancient Canaanite origins, but that parts had come from where the sect originated. Professor Felix von Luschan (1911), according to his conclusions from anthropometric measurements, makes the Druze, Maronites, and Alawites, together with the Armenians, Bektashis, ‘Ali-Ilahis, and Yezidis of Asia Minor and Persia, the modern representatives of the ancient Hittites.

Cilicia is the coastal plain of Anatolia just north/northeast of Cypress. I think we may have to consider Anatolia for specifically by region (at least I need to be more knowledgable of it.)  The terrain looks rugged enough to be able to maintain some isolation of populations, at least in ancient times.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Turkey_topo.jpg
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 10:41:31 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #118 on: November 08, 2011, 09:35:46 PM »

I copied the below from dna-forums today.
Quote from: handschar
Some observations.  

I split the North Mesopotamian (nearly all Assyrians of the "Nestorian" faith.  Chaldean Catholics, Syriac Orthodox, and N Iraq Jews have not tested in any significant numbers) group by DYS392=13 (L584 FTDNA tested and possible), and DYS392=14 ("L277" 23andMe SNP result and possible).  For additional marker values (if available), please see the Assyrian and Aramaic projects.

North Mesopotamian Group 1 ("L277", similar haplotypes, and all other DYS392=14)

191401    12    25    14    11    11    13    12    12    12    12    14    28
190249    12    23    12    11    11    15    12    12    12    13    14    28
213878    12    24    15    11    11    14    12    12    12    12    14    27
150841    12    25    14    10    11    13    12    12    12    13    14    29
SMGF      12    24    14    10    12    14    12    12    12    13    14    29
N20819    12    26    14    11    11    14    12    12    13    13    14    29
154393    12    24    13    11    11    14    12    12    13    13    14    30


North Mesopotamian Group 2 (L584+ and similar haplotypes)

184027   12    24    14    10    12    15    12    12    12    12    13    26
147979   12    24    14    11    12    14    12    12    12    13    13    29
90492    12    24    13    10    11    14    12    12    12    14    13    30
60631    13    24    14    10    11    14    12    12    11    14    13    30
213562   13    24    14    10    11    14    12    12    12    14    13    30
61835    13    24    14    10    11    14    12    12    12    14    13    30
205003   13    24    14    10    11    14    12    12    12    14    13    30
N93831   13    24    14    10    11    14    12    12    12    14    13    30
83734    13    24    14    10    11    14    12    12    12    14    13    30
73539    13    24    14    10    11    14    12    12    12    14    13    30
205749   13    24    14    11    11    14    12    12    12    14    13    30


The N Syrian Alawite R1b presumed or possible haplotypes, based on Athey's predictor, from the data published in Donbak et al.  All haplotypesDYS392=13.

n=1    12    23    14    10    11    14    xx    xx    xx    14    13    30
n=1    12    24    14    10    10    14    xx    xx    xx    12    13    29
n=1    12    24    14    10    11    14    xx    xx    xx    13    13    29
n=1    12    24    14    11    11    14    xx    xx    xx    14    13    30
n=2    12    24    14    12    11    14    xx    xx    xx    14    13    30
n=1    12    24    14    12    11    14    xx    xx    xx    13    13    29
n=3    12    25    14    11    11    14    xx    xx    xx    13    13    29
n=1    12    25    14    12    11    14    xx    xx    xx    14    13    30
n=5    13    24    14    11    11    15    xx    xx    xx    13    13    29
n=2    13    24    14    11    11    15    xx    xx    xx    12    13    28
n=12   13    24    14    11    11    15    xx    xx    xx    14    13    30
n=1    13    24    14    10    11    15    xx    xx    xx    14    13    30
n=1    13    24    14    11    11    15    xx    xx    xx    15    13    31
n=1    13    24    14    11    10    15    xx    xx    xx    15    13    31
n=1    13    24    16    10    11    14    xx    xx    xx    14    13    30


All non-Assyrian L584+ confirmed ht35 project participants are DYS392=13.  

All Jewish Cohanim L584+ group confirmed or presumed ("Group A") are DYS392=13.

All non-Assyrian "L277" 23andMe ht35 project participants are DYS392=14.

All Jewish Cohanim "L277" 23andMe or presumed ("Group B") are DYS392=14.


Here is some discussion on the ancestry of the Alawi.
Quote from: Wikipedia
The sect seems to have been organised by a follower of Muḥammad ibn Nuṣayr known as al-Khasibi, who died in Aleppo about 969. In 1032 Al-Khaṣībī's grandson and pupil al-Tabarani moved to Latakia, which was then controlled by the Byzantine Empire. Al-Tabarani became the perfector of the Alawi faith through his numerous writings. He and his pupils converted the rural population of the Syrian Coastal Mountain Range and the plain of Cilicia to the Alawi faith. Samuel Lyde believed the population was of ancient Canaanite origins, but that parts had come from where the sect originated. Professor Felix von Luschan (1911), according to his conclusions from anthropometric measurements, makes the Druze, Maronites, and Alawites, together with the Armenians, Bektashis, ‘Ali-Ilahis, and Yezidis of Asia Minor and Persia, the modern representatives of the ancient Hittites.

Handschar added this later today. MHammers, you've looked at the cranium information. Handschar is referring to the Alawi in the post below, saying they are brachycephalic. The original Bell Beaker folks were brachycephalic, weren't they?
Quote from: Handschar
They are very brachycephalic.  Just like the other populations mentioned.   Something I mentioned on Dienekes blog recently.

 dok101 (http://www.blogger.com/profile/13206091188143667035) said...@ Dienekes

"[T]he old-time physical anthropologists had much that was interesting to say."

Took a look at Henry Field's "Contributions to the Anthropology of Iran." Specifically, the listing of cephalic indices for mostly West Asian groups, but also a few others. The most brachycephalic populations had the greatest frequencies of R-M269, T, and J1* (and possibly other HGs), among the populations listed. Though, it should be noted, Roewer et al. found significant frequencies of R-M269 in some of the northern Iranian minority groups (e.g. Talysh), not listed below. At least not separately.

1 Bakhtiari 88.38 T=13%, Roewer et al.
2 Assyrian avg 88.07 T/hg26~14%, hg1(perhaps 30-35% R-M269)=41.5%, J1*=10+% (Yepiskoposian et al., Mendez et al., Chiaroni et al.)
3 Lezgin 87.77 R-M269=29.6%, J1*=44.4% (Balanovsky et al.)
4 Druze 87.26 T=8%, R-M269 frequencies vary. Most recent=49%. Rough average of past studies, perhaps in the neighborhood of ~20% R-M269? (Mendez et al., Al-Zahery et al.)
5 Armenian avg 86.34 R-M269=26%, T=6%, J1* (mostly xP58) = 12%. Armenian FTDNA Project.
6 Laz 85.6
7 Alawi avg 85.25 R-M269 estimated, based on haplotypes in Dönbak et al, to be at least 30%-35%.
8 Syrian 85.11
9 Lebanese 84.88
9 Turkish avg 84.88
11 Georgian 83.2
12 Ossetes avg 82.17
13 Circassian 82.05
14 Iranian 80.06
15 Kurd avg 79.84
16 Persian avg 78.55
17 Azerbaijani 76
18 Lurs 74.25

« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 09:38:28 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
Mark Jost
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Posts: 707


« Reply #119 on: October 12, 2012, 10:23:53 AM »

I ran so new numbers

Gen111T Age and Variance results
using: MikeW's Haplotype_Data-R-M343xU106xP312

67(50)Markers
Sheet  Mutation Rate:  0.11113   
17 STRs not used: 385,389i,459,464,CDY,YCAII, 395S1 & 413                     
Founder's  R-M269 only   Count N=22
Generations  VAR  SD
114.3  12.703  3.564         
      
Founder's  R-M269* Italy Count N=5
Generations  VAR  SD   
126  14.0  3.742
               
Founder's   L23 All  Count N=180
Generations  VAR  SD   
147.3  16.37  4.046         
                        
Founder's  L23 Italy  Count N=7 
Generations  VAR  SD      
173.1  19.238  4.386            
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mark Jost
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Posts: 707


« Reply #120 on: October 12, 2012, 10:46:38 AM »

L11 data

Gen111T Age and Variance results
using: MikeW's Haplotype_Data-R-M343xU106xP312

67(50)Markers
Sheet  Mutation Rate:  0.11113   
17 STRs not used: 385,389i,459,464,CDY,YCAII, 395S1 & 413
                   
Founder's  R-L11* All   Count N=36
Generations  VAR  SD
122.0  13.563 3.683       
     
Founder's  R-L11 Germany   Count N=5
Generations  VAR  SD
109.8  12.2 3.493

Founder's  R-L11 Ger Fra   Count N=7
Generations  VAR  SD
111.0  12.333 3.512


Founder's  R-L11 ENG   Count N=10
Generations  VAR  SD
110.0  12.333 3.512

Founder's  R-L11 IRE   Count N=5
Generations  VAR  SD
126.0  14.0 3.742

Founder's  R-L11 Pol   Count N=3
Generations  VAR  SD
135.0  15.0 3.873


MJost
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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