World Families Forums - First Non-Assyrian Non-Armenian R1b1a2a1 L584+

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 28, 2014, 06:42:02 PM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  First Non-Assyrian Non-Armenian R1b1a2a1 L584+
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: First Non-Assyrian Non-Armenian R1b1a2a1 L584+  (Read 2573 times)
seferhabahir
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« on: September 30, 2011, 11:18:03 PM »

An R-L150 person in the Jewish R1b Project (Kit #45475) found out recently they tested L584+ and proposed this "might" be genetic evidence of an historical dispersion of Israelites (i.e., the ten lost tribes) into the Assyrian Empire. It is only a single data point, but could be supported by additional future R1b Jewish Project tests. There are apparently several negative L584 results from Pakistan, Greece, Iraq, Italy, Russia and Germany.

Any opinions?
Logged

Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2011, 08:14:10 AM »

An R-L150 person in the Jewish R1b Project (Kit #45475) found out recently they tested L584+ and proposed this "might" be genetic evidence of an historical dispersion of Israelites (i.e., the ten lost tribes) into the Assyrian Empire. It is only a single data point, but could be supported by additional future R1b Jewish Project tests. There are apparently several negative L584 results from Pakistan, Greece, Iraq, Italy, Russia and Germany.
I don't know but it certainly doesn't hurt.  Here are the L584 people that I can find. Does this list look correct?
I have an R-L23xL11 and L11* file now. I must be missing the Greek, German and Russian L584.  What are their kit #s?


f45475____ Silver___________________ R-L23/L584_______ 584____________ 7PJJJ___ Lithuania (Jewish project)
f205749___ Al-Jeloo_________________ R-L23/L584_______ 584____________ ZKR7U___ Iraq (Assyrian project)
f73539____ Bacchus__________________ R-L23/L584_______ 584____________ ___ Iran (Assyrian project)
f90492____ Barkho___________________ R-L23/L584_______ 584____________ ___ Turkey (Assyrian project)
f184027___ Gorgis___________________ R-L23/L584_______ 584____________ ___ Iraq (Assyrian project)
f195789___ Guloomian________________ R-L23/L584_______ 584____________ 5YAUS___ Armenia
f187550___ Hablanian________________ R-L23/L584_______ 584____________ ___ Turkey
f147979___ Hermes___________________ R-L23/L584_______ 584____________ 5J2V5___ Iraq (Assyrian project)
f61835____ Hurmis___________________ R-L23/L584_______ 584____________ ___ Turkey (Assyrian project)
f205003___ Khoshabow________________ R-L23/L584_______ 584____________ ___ Iran (Assyrian project)
f182984___ Kurdi____________________ R-L23/L584_______ 584____________ YFXAT___ Armenia, Urfa
f83734____ Oshana___________________ R-L23/L584_______ 584____________ ___ Iran (Assyrian project)
f166322___ Paboudjian_______________ R-L23/L584_______ 584____________ ___ Turkey
f60631____ Paul_____________________ R-L23/L584_______ 584____________ ___ Iran (Assyrian project)
f191405___ Philibossian_____________ R-L23/L584_______ 584____________ ___ Turkey
fN93831___ Solomon__________________ R-L23/L584_______ 584____________ ___ Iran (Assyrian project)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 08:15:58 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
seferhabahir
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2011, 03:07:34 PM »

An R-L150 person in the Jewish R1b Project (Kit #45475) found out recently they tested L584+ and proposed this "might" be genetic evidence of an historical dispersion of Israelites (i.e., the ten lost tribes) into the Assyrian Empire. It is only a single data point, but could be supported by additional future R1b Jewish Project tests. There are apparently several negative L584 results from Pakistan, Greece, Iraq, Italy, Russia and Germany.
I don't know but it certainly doesn't hurt.  Here are the L584 people that I can find. Does this list look correct?
I have an R-L23xL11 and L11* file now. I must be missing the Greek, German and Russian L584.  What are their kit #s?


That list, from the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) project, looks right. There are some L584- results scattered around in that project, including:

f84950 Giulla, Italy R1b1a2a L584-
f145692 Earhart, Germany    R1b1a2a1 L584-
f159888 Kubatiev, Russia R1b1a2a1 L584-
f191402 Valaris-Valarakis, Greece R1b1a2a1 L584-
Logged

Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2158


« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2011, 03:59:36 PM »

L584 is tested also by 23andme, then all those tested and present in the "Adriano's spreadsheet" who aren't in the Assyrian-Armenian clade (and now the Jew Silver) are L584-: for instance all the Italians tested: me, my son, my relative Tognarelli (whose Y37-s are arriving from FTDNA), Romitti and others.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2158


« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2011, 04:15:16 AM »

L584/L405=rs9786602=Y27141305 was discovered when I asked my Iranian
friend Chitsaz, who had done 23andme, to send his data to Adriano Squecco.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 12:05:41 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2158


« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2011, 01:50:44 PM »

1 14 14 30 24 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 13 >>
1 of 249 Çukurova, Turkey [Turk] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 13 1 >>
13 14 30 24 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 13 0 >>

1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 13 >>
1 of 303 Central Portugal, Portugal [Portuguese] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 12 3 >>
14 13 29 24 11 13 13 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 13 2 >>
14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 13 2 >>
14 14 30 24 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 13 1 >>
14 13 30 24 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 13 1 >>

2 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 13 >>
1 of 832 Sverdlovsk Region, Russian Federation [Russian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Asia
1 of 1100 United States [Hispanic American] Admixed North America

You ask something about this hypothesis that R-L584+ may indicate a Jewish origin. I pass over in silence about the tribes lost, but the closest haplotypes to Silver on YHRD seem to indicate two possibilities:
1)   a Jewish origin
2)   a Turk (or Central Asiatic) origin, then for Jews an origin from the Khazars and after a migration also to Spain, and about this we have numerous examples.

Really next tests will answer this question.

Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

seferhabahir
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2011, 10:47:46 PM »

You ask something about this hypothesis that R-L584+ may indicate a Jewish origin. I pass over in silence about the tribes lost, but the closest haplotypes to Silver on YHRD seem to indicate two possibilities:
1)   a Jewish origin
2)   a Turk (or Central Asiatic) origin, then for Jews an origin from the Khazars and after a migration also to Spain, and about this we have numerous examples.

Really next tests will answer this question.

Conquering/destruction/assimilation of Northern Kingdom into the Assyrian Empire is well documented and I think interesting here. Note this new L584+ (f45475, whether Jewish or Turk or other origin), is also in the R1b Cohanim Project with around 20 close matches that have Cohen tradition, although so far he is the only confirmed R1b1a2a1. Turkic Central Asiatic origin for L584+ is interesting if a large number of R1b Cohanim project members turn out positive for L584.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2011, 12:24:07 AM »

Are you two interested in helping me assign R-L11* and R-L23* guys to subclades or probable clusters?

I've downloaded (from FTNDA projects) all of these folks I can find. The R1b ht35 project appears to be semi-defunct and I know the correlation with 23andMe testing is critical.. so the Y SNP report is not that helpful.

Mike
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2158


« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2011, 12:58:51 AM »

Mike, amongst the R-L584/L405+ (I am referring to the samples present in the ht35 project) there are two clusters: one with the ancestral DYS393=12 and the other with DYS393=13. This SNP seems recent, like my private S136, born between 800 and 1400 AD. This doesn’t exclude that also these R-L23+ could be the ancestors of the subclades, even though I have always thought that the R-L23+/L150- (the Italian Romitti) is decisive.
Ask and you will be answered.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

seferhabahir
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2011, 11:56:35 AM »

Are you two interested in helping me assign R-L11* and R-L23* guys to subclades or probable clusters?

I've downloaded (from FTNDA projects) all of these folks I can find. The R1b ht35 project appears to be semi-defunct and I know the correlation with 23andMe testing is critical.. so the Y SNP report is not that helpful.

Mike

OK, I will try to educate myself a little more about R-L11* and R-23* to help. Lately I've been spending most of my time trying to learn about J2a* (maternal grandfather's Y-DNA lineage) which appears to be quite ancient and almost a mirror reverse of L21 in terms of density distributions.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

seferhabahir
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2011, 03:34:56 PM »

Are you two interested in helping me assign R-L11* and R-L23* guys to subclades or probable clusters?

I've downloaded (from FTNDA projects) all of these folks I can find. The R1b ht35 project appears to be semi-defunct and I know the correlation with 23andMe testing is critical.. so the Y SNP report is not that helpful.

Mike

OK, I will try to educate myself a little more about R-L11* and R-23* to help. Lately I've been spending most of my time trying to learn about J2a* (maternal grandfather's Y-DNA lineage) which appears to be quite ancient and almost a mirror reverse of L21 in terms of density distributions.

Here is another (brand new, I think) L584+ that is not in your list:

178932 Tastan, Turkey Alevi, R-M269 (ysearch Y7RQQ)
Logged

Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

seferhabahir
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2011, 03:50:36 PM »

Here is another (brand new, I think) L584+ that is not in your list:

178932 Tastan, Turkey Alevi, R-M269 (ysearch Y7RQQ)

His nephew started a thread on another forum and said the uncle is from Eastern Anatolia (Erzurum) and claims that he came there from Khazaria and may lend support to Maliclavelli's suggested Khazar linkage. L584 is now called R1b1a2a1b on the most recent ISOGG R tree.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2011, 06:47:18 PM »

Are you two interested in helping me assign R-L11* and R-L23* guys to subclades or probable clusters?

I've downloaded (from FTNDA projects) all of these folks I can find. The R1b ht35 project appears to be semi-defunct and I know the correlation with 23andMe testing is critical.. so the Y SNP report is not that helpful.

Mike

OK, I will try to educate myself a little more about R-L11* and R-23* to help. Lately I've been spending most of my time trying to learn about J2a* (maternal grandfather's Y-DNA lineage) which appears to be quite ancient and almost a mirror reverse of L21 in terms of density distributions.
I put this spreadsheet of R-L23xL11 and L11* people out in the FILES section of the R-P312 Yahoo group.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/files/
Haplotype_Data_R-L23aL11a.zip
R-M269 L23xL11 and L11* confirmed haplotypes including all subclades. P312 and U106 are excluded. 111 marker haplotypes are also included. 2011-10-05 - M.W. [file is in MS Excel 2010 .xlsm format and can be read by OpenOffice.org 3.3 and resaved to older versions of Excel]

I guess we could add the R-M269xL23 folks too. There aren't that many and as has been noted there are a few in Italy as well as SW Asia.

I'd like to classify any of these subclades and paragroups into deep ancestral varieties/clusters to see if there really are "Eastern" subclades or they are really just a large number of unrelated subclades that effectively carry high diversity.

What project is 178932 Tastan, Turkey Alevi in?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 06:47:54 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
seferhabahir
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2011, 07:39:32 PM »


What project is 178932 Tastan, Turkey Alevi in?


He is in the R1b ht35 Project with the other L584+ entries, so the project is still kicking.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2011, 10:10:56 AM »


What project is 178932 Tastan, Turkey Alevi in?


He is in the R1b ht35 Project with the other L584+ entries, so the project is still kicking.
I just added him to the spreadsheet.

I'm going to change the file name to  Haplotype_Data_R-M269a.zip as I've just added the R-M269xL23 people.

Just looking for clusters right now. I think there are some other folks who need to test for L584 as well.  Here is what I have for L584+


f205749___ Al-Jeloo_________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ZKR7U___ Iraq (Assyrian project)
f73539____ Bacchus__________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Iran (Assyrian project)
f90492____ Barkho___________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Turkey (Assyrian project)
f184027___ Gorgis___________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Iraq (Assyrian project)
f195789___ Guloomian________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ 5YAUS___ Armenia
f187550___ Hablanian________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Turkey
f147979___ Hermes___________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ 5J2V5___ Iraq (Assyrian project)
f61835____ Hurmis___________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Turkey (Assyrian project)
f205003___ Khoshabow________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Iran (Assyrian project)
f182984___ Kurdi____________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ YFXAT___ Armenia, Urfa
f83734____ Oshana___________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Iran (Assyrian project)
f166322___ Paboudjian_______________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Turkey
f60631____ Paul_____________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Iran (Assyrian project)
f191405___ Philibossian_____________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Turkey
fN93831___ Solomon__________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Iran (Assyrian project)
f178932___ Tastan___________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Turkey
f45475____ Silver___________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584-1111____ 7PJJJ___ Lithuania (Jewish project)


The guys below look like they fit in the cluster with Silver.  They have reasonable GD's from him and they all have four or five common off-modals including the slow 594=11 and 511=11.

fN36264___ Feldsott_________________ R-L23*___________ m23584-1111____ VJVRT___ Belarus, Mogilev, Seletz (Jewish project)
f92187____ Jastrow__________________ R-L23*___________ m23584-1111____ UU6JU___ Poland (Jewish project)
f55790____ Kaplanovski______________ R-L23*___________ m23584-1111____ 5MJ7P___ Lithuania (Jewish project)


I use L23+ L51- for R-L23* and L23+ L277- L584- L51- for R-L23** so I don't think these last three guys have tested for L584
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
seferhabahir
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2011, 01:33:50 PM »


Just looking for clusters right now. I think there are some other folks who need to test for L584 as well.  Here is what I have for L584+


f205749___ Al-Jeloo_________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ZKR7U___ Iraq (Assyrian project)
f73539____ Bacchus__________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Iran (Assyrian project)
f90492____ Barkho___________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Turkey (Assyrian project)
f184027___ Gorgis___________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Iraq (Assyrian project)
f195789___ Guloomian________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ 5YAUS___ Armenia
f187550___ Hablanian________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Turkey
f147979___ Hermes___________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ 5J2V5___ Iraq (Assyrian project)
f61835____ Hurmis___________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Turkey (Assyrian project)
f205003___ Khoshabow________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Iran (Assyrian project)
f182984___ Kurdi____________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ YFXAT___ Armenia, Urfa
f83734____ Oshana___________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Iran (Assyrian project)
f166322___ Paboudjian_______________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Turkey
f60631____ Paul_____________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Iran (Assyrian project)
f191405___ Philibossian_____________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Turkey
fN93831___ Solomon__________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Iran (Assyrian project)
f178932___ Tastan___________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584_________ ___ Turkey
f45475____ Silver___________________ R-L23/L584_______ m23584-1111____ 7PJJJ___ Lithuania (Jewish project)


The guys below look like they fit in the cluster with Silver.  They have reasonable GD's from him and they all have four or five common off-modals including the slow 594=11 and 511=11.

fN36264___ Feldsott_________________ R-L23*___________ m23584-1111____ VJVRT___ Belarus, Mogilev, Seletz (Jewish project)
f92187____ Jastrow__________________ R-L23*___________ m23584-1111____ UU6JU___ Poland (Jewish project)
f55790____ Kaplanovski______________ R-L23*___________ m23584-1111____ 5MJ7P___ Lithuania (Jewish project)


I use L23+ L51- for R-L23* and L23+ L277- L584- L51- for R-L23** so I don't think these last three guys have tested for L584


Here are some newer Turkish/Armenian L584+ people from R1b ht35 Project (also in the Armenian FTDNA Project). It appears that the R1b ht35 list is being kept up to date as newer L584+ results come in, so I would keep checking there periodically.


166323 Tavit Tashjian                 R1b1a2a R-L23

164200 Melik-Hovsepian              R1b1a2a R-L23

152974 Kalantar                          R1b1a2a1 R-L150
Logged

Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2158


« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2011, 02:04:25 PM »

Searching the closest to Tartan (Y7RQQ) on YHRD. If we had the patience to investigate all the closest data on YHRD, probably we’d find there the response to all our questions.


3 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,16 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
2 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,16 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,16 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 11 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,16 12 12 15 19 15 16 24 11 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,16 13 13 15 19 15 19 23 12 >>
2 of 236 Hungary [Hungarian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 93 Goiás,Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America
1 of 218 Tuscany, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 1301 United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America
1 of 125 Brussels, Belgium [Belgian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 109 Paris, France [French] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 1239 United States [Hispanic American] Admixed North America

14 13 29 24 11 13 12 12,16 9 >>
14 13 29 24 11 13 13 11,16 61 >>
14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 46 >>
14 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,16 4 >>
14 13 29 23 11 13 12 11,16 3 >>
14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,16 3 >>
14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,17 3 >>
15 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,16 2 >>
14 13 30 24 11 13 12 11,16 2 >>
14 13 28 24 11 13 12 11,16 1 >>
14 13 29 24 12 13 12 11,16 1 >>
14 13 29 24 11 14 12 11,16 1 >>

1 14 13 28 24 11 13 12 11,16 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 113 Central Anatolia, Turkey [Turkish] Eurasian - Altaic Asia

1 14 13 29 24 12 13 12 11,16 11 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 134 Pyrenees, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

1 14 13 29 24 11 14 12 11,16 12 11 15 19 15 16 23 12 >>
1 of 163 Israel & Palestinian Authority Area [Arab] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Asia

16 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
8 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
3 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 12 >>
2 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 12 12 16 19 15 17 23 12 >>
2 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 12 13 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
2 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 12 13 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 11 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 12 12 14 19 15 16 23 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 12 12 15 19 15 15 23 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 12 12 15 19 15 16 22 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 12 12 15 19 15 17 23 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 11 13 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 12 11 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 12 11 15 19 15 16 23 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 12 11 16 19 15 16 23 11 >>
 1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,15 12 14 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>

3 of 565 Northern Portugal, Portugal [Portuguese] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe 2 of 178 Oberöstereich, Austria [Austrian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
2 of 1277 United States [African American] African - Afro-American North America
2 of 738 Cologne, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
2 of 117 Noord-Brabant, Netherlands [Dutch] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
2 of 212 Costa Rica [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 200 Budapest, Hungary [Hungarian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 220 North Croatia, Croatia [Croatian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 104 South Iran, Iran [Farsi] Eurasian - Indo-Iranian Asia
1 of 67 Boa Vista, Brazil [Admixed Brazilian] Admixed Latin America
1 of 55 Krasnodar, Russian Federation [Russian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 102 Espirito Santo, Brazil [Brazilian] Admixed Latin America
1 of 47 Rasht, Iran [Gilaki] Eurasian - Indo-Iranian Asia
1 of 455 Central Bohemia, Czech Republic [Czech] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 792 Central Portugal, Portugal [Portuguese] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 98 Rimini, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 150 Zagreb, Croatia [Croatian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 151 Wladiwostok, Russian Federation [European] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Asia
1 of 120 Zaragoza, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 82 Suwalki, Poland [Polish] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 1122 Stuttgart, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 90 Bonn, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 1301 United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America
1 of 1239 United States [Hispanic American] Admixed North America
1 of 126 Iraq [Kurds] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
1 of 653 Buenos Aires, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
1 of 208 Greifswald, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 766 Australia [Aboriginal] Australian Aboriginal Oceania / Australia
1 of 1079 Australia [European] Eurasian - European - Western European Oceania / Australia
1 of 150 New York City, United States [African American] African - Afro-American North America
1 of 127 Novgorod, Russian Federation [Russian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 109 Paris, France [French] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 70 Puglia, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 152 New York City, United States [Hispanic American] Admixed North America
1 of 99 Madeira, Portugal [Portuguese] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 120 Quito, Ecuador [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 50 Limburg, Netherlands [Dutch] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 97 Leiden, Netherlands [Dutch] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 215 Novi Sad, Serbia [Serbian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe

1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 10,15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 198 Reunion [Créole Blanc] Admixed Africa

1 14 13 29 24 10 13 12 10,15 12 14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 150 Switzerland [Swiss] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

13 13 29 24 11 13 12 10,15 1 >>
15 13 29 24 11 13 12 10,15 1 >>
14 14 30 24 11 13 12 10,15 1 >>
14 13 29 25 11 13 12 10,15 1 >>
14 13 29 24 10 13 12 10,15 1 >>
14 12 28 24 11 13 12 10,15 0 >>

1 13 13 29 24 11 13 12 10,15 12 13 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 1301 United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America

1 15 13 29 24 11 13 12 10,15 12 13 16 20 16 16 23 12 >>
1 of 427 Córdoba, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America

1 14 14 30 24 11 13 12 10,15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 101 Athens, Greece [Greek] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe

1 14 13 29 25 11 13 12 10,15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 390 Andalucía/Extremadura, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

14 12 28 24 10 13 12 10,14 2 >>
14 12 28 24 10 13 12 11,15 2 >>
14 13 29 24 10 13 12 10,15 1 >>
14 12 28 24 10 13 13 10,15 1 >>

1 14 12 28 24 10 13 12 10,14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 12 28 24 10 13 12 10,14 11 12 15 19 16 16 23 12 >>
1 of 249 Çukurova, Turkey [Turk] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
1 of 113 Syria [Syrian] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Asia

1 14 12 28 24 10 13 12 11,15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 12 28 24 10 13 12 11,15 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 629 Eastern Slovakia, Slovakia [Slovakian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 208 Greifswald, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

1 14 12 28 24 10 13 13 10,15 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 427 Córdoba, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America

From these data it is very difficult to understand the centre of diffusion of R-L23, being it diffused in a wide zone from Europe to Middle East. Also searching for the outliers, the diffusion is the same wide, but perhaps the last haplotype from Cordova, Argentina, with DYS393=13, which cannot be one of the most diffused subclades but really an R-L23 which has mutated 12 to 13, could indicate the highest variance amongst these haplotypes and Argentineans are mostly Italians or Spaniards.
This is a case where the mutation of DYS393 from 12 to 13 doesn’t overlap  the haplotypes with the 13 of the modal after R-L11+.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

seferhabahir
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2011, 02:19:19 PM »


The guys below look like they fit in the cluster with Silver.  They have reasonable GD's from him and they all have four or five common off-modals including the slow 594=11 and 511=11.

fN36264___ Feldsott_________________ R-L23*___________ m23584-1111____ VJVRT___ Belarus  (Jewish project)
f92187____ Jastrow__________________ R-L23*___________ m23584-1111____ UU6JU___ Poland (Jewish project)
f55790____ Kaplanovski______________ R-L23*___________ m23584-1111____ 5MJ7P___ Lithuania (Jewish project)


I use L23+ L51- for R-L23* and L23+ L277- L584- L51- for R-L23** so I don't think these last three guys have tested for L584


The following R1b Jewish Project member tested L584- (not in same cluster as Silver, note  the off values DYS391, DYS385b, DYS389i, DYS392, DYS389ii in the first 12 markers)

435 Mordechai R1b1a2a
12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28 15 9-9 11 11 25 14 19 30 15-15-16-17 11 12 19-23 16 17 19 17 34-37 12 12   

I would also add these 67-marker close Silver matches (from R1b Cohanim Project and in Jewish R1b L23* Group C)     
                                                             
54687 Tilkin R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-16-17 11 12 19-23 15 15 17 18 37-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 22-23 16 11 12 12 16 8 11 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                         

55790 Kaye R1b1a2a
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 14 13 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-16-17 11 12 19-23 15 15 17 18 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 23-23 16 11 12 12 16 8 11 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                         


Logged

Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2158


« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2011, 02:50:58 PM »

12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 14 13 30

This haplotype is very diffused all over the world. I have just had the first 12 markers of my relative Giorgio Tognarelli (the others till 37 will arrive on the first days of November):

12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 13 29


Practically a GD of 1: DYS389I from 13 to 14. Very common.



Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2158


« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2011, 03:09:36 PM »


The following R1b Jewish Project member tested L584- (not in same cluster as Silver, note  the off values DYS391, DYS385b, DYS389i, DYS392, DYS389ii in the first 12 markers)

435 Mordechai R1b1a2a
12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28 15 9-9 11 11 25 14 19 30 15-15-16-17 11 12 19-23 16 17 19 17 34-37 12 12   

I would also add these 67-marker close Silver matches (from R1b Cohanim Project and in Jewish R1b L23* Group C)     
                                                             
54687 Tilkin R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-16-17 11 12 19-23 15 15 17 18 37-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 22-23 16 11 12 12 16 8 11 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                         

55790 Kaye R1b1a2a
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 14 13 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-16-17 11 12 19-23 15 15 17 18 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 23-23 16 11 12 12 16 8 11 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                         
[/quote]

Tilkin and Kaye belong to the same haplotype and are related within a few centuries.
Mordechai belongs to another haplotype and it isn’t said that they are related in more ancient times like Jews, demonstrating the ancientness of this haplotype amongst Jews. They could derive from different R-L23 persons introgressed into the Jewish pool.
We need deeper analyses for demonstrating that ancient Jews got this haplogroup: exactly the aDNA.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.129 seconds with 17 queries.